GMH Feedback

[Lizzie]

The blacklist idea is great, with limits.  It could be that no GMH person should be able to blacklist anyone of -higher- social status than they are. So you can blacklist Lord Bumpy's aide but you can't blacklist Lord Bumpy himself.  If you want Lord Bumpy blacklisted you'd still have to go to your superior (senior npc in the house), or maybe do some politicking to get your favorite templar's blessing and some coded coordination would then give your character coded ability to get it done.

Price increases would be even better. Afterall the GMHs are in business to make money, not refuse it. So maybe Lord Bumpy's aide has to pay 25% more than anyone else in Allanak. But if the Aide is willing to risk life and limb they could still get it cheaper by travelling to Tuluk. Or involve someone else to acquire it on his behalf, thus giving tasks to other PCs, reason to travel, jobs for independents, and so on.

[zealus]

Adding a couple of ideas to capture them with all of yours

We have a way to blacklist people at a shop.  We have a way to change prices at a shop for entire clans.  But these are all done staff side.  Maybe we add a way for PC GMH folks to set these.  So if you piss off Joe Kadius he goes and sets a 25% increase to prices for you at all his house shops.

Ok that's 1 idea.

Yes please. And if it was a bad idea, and Lord Templar tradeymctradeface hears that Senior Lord fancyschancy is upset? That's plot. That's consequences of one's own actions. But don't make it go through staff. Staff can not, and should not want to, see every nuance in relationships.

[Eurynomos]

Part of the problem I've seen over the years when staffing for GMH is...

"Let me ask my Senior..."

Which I think was baked into GMH at some point and I don't know when. Maybe it was Staff, maybe it was players, maybe a combination of both (more likely).

I'd love for PC GMH family to have more latitude to make decisions on their own, for better and for worse. I personally found that more true for the Agent branch than the Merchant branch.

For those of you that played in Agent vs Merchant — what difference in play did you notice?

Another question — what rules / regulations felt arbitrary? One that comes to mind was the micro managing of who was/was not allowed in the Estates. Any others comes to mind that were more stifling than helpful?

[Tuannon]

@Halaster

Okay

If I am playing an indy crafter who specializes in weapons or armour and I'm selling a whole bunch of stock in Allanak (and not paying bribes or kick backs to keep it quiet), I should expect to be paid a visit by either the Trade Ministry or House Salarr or ideally both.

They may have minor disagreements about how best to get their pound of flesh from me, but it should be certain that some attention should come of my endeavours into Salarr's sovereignity as arms dealers.

The exact interaction between Salarr and my indy should vary based on a number of situations and scenarios, maybe we sit down for a nice chat and I agree to do contracts for Salarr in return for not getting a visit from some ratty rooftop elves or whatever.

Also I think a few examples of what a Merchant/Agent/Sergeant might do to facilitate a suitable address to an upstart in their operation area would also be good.

Maybe if they start to brag you start buying out their stockists, or you start rumour milling or whatever.

Sure, it's more work for staff but if there is a framework in place for how these scenarios go down, the players can do a lot of the heavy lifting and staff just have to do animations or what have you just to arbitrate them.

[Delusion]

Part of the problem I've seen over the years when staffing for GMH is...

"Let me ask my Senior..."

Which I think was baked into GMH at some point and I don't know when. Maybe it was Staff, maybe it was players, maybe a combination of both (more likely).

I'd love for PC GMH family to have more latitude to make decisions on their own, for better and for worse. I personally found that more true for the Agent branch than the Merchant branch.

For those of you that played in Agent vs Merchant — what difference in play did you notice?

Another question — what rules / regulations felt arbitrary? One that comes to mind was the micro managing of who was/was not allowed in the Estates. Any others comes to mind that were more stifling than helpful?

The "Let me ask my senior" business is just all around not good. Typically, the answer has always been a no, because senior NPCs are all super risk adverse. Coming from me who often plays risk averse PCs, staff-run NPCs are typically absolute wusses, unwilling for their house to take even the smallest risk. The solution is to better empower player characters to make these decisions and for staff to support them by having the world react accordingly, whether the decision is good or bad.

Honestly, the entire Merchant/Agent branch split is basically a Vending Machine/Cool Stuff split. If the vending machine side was disposed of, then everyone could just do cool stuff, and you wouldn't need the split.

As for micromanaging rules, in no particular order, stuff I would change is this.

Micromanaging who can sell what to whom. Practically speaking, PC leaders often delegated sales anyway. Just scale all that way back. Once someone's past the recruit stage, let them sell some stuff. Put the focus on the actual merchant part of merchant houses.

Tidy up the rules on who can come into estates. If someone comes along with a delivery, what's the problem with them passing by the gates to leave it in? When doing business deals, it makes more sense for GMHs to do this behind closed doors than in the backroom of Red's Retreat or whatever.

Get rid of a requirement to hang out and spamcraft. Others have alluded to this but this is no more conducive to an interesting game experience than people sparring or foraging salt for hours on end. It's fine if that's what people want to do but if it's an IC requirement, people just won't play. This has varied heavily depending on clan lead. Cool clan leads won't require it and it has never actually hurt the clan. Focus on mastercrafts as other people have suggested, instead.

[Dresan]

I dont have too much skin in this area of the game since I often play dirty, poor mundanes these days. Allanak nobility have no relationships with its citizen and GMHs are only useful to people that one time when you buy your set of gear. In my experience trickle down plot economics don't work so these thing have no effect on my play style usually.


That said just some things to note:

1. Both noble houses and GMHs have had issues where there isn't anything to do, and are boring.  Combining noble and portions of GMH responsabilities would solve this by increasing interactions within houses and overall goals, not to mention competition between houses which could rise and disappear throughput the season. However if combining these entities isn't an option, consider combining GMHs into one organization if only publically.

GMHs have offered different experiences in the past but less so these days, where neutrality is non-existant.  They all play like minor nobles in the city and major ones in luirs and other places, not so much like merchants trying to survive in the entire known. Some of the things described as fun gimicks for GMHs could are very similar to what is being asked of nobles, this makes sense because the current GMHs are like a minor noble house. Lastly have Tuluk take over luirs for this season, keeping GMHs in check if only virtually.


2. This is a permadeath game. Having access to good gear, weapon and armors should be equal to having a second life. Crafting should be the most popular subclasses right next to mages and stealth in terms of survivability and combat effectiveness.

But it isn't.

This is for two reasons. First gear last forever, once you get a good set, its rare to need to replace it. Secondly, the best stuff comes from salarr not player crafters, at the price easily afforded since there isnt too much need for coins. I find it ironic the the most tediuos, burnout inducing part of being a merchant in GMHs clans, the gear vending machine role is likely also the most detrimental aspect to the game.


3. If gear vending machines and bullying indies trying to sell to the couple of players willing to buy their worthless stuff is still what GMHs are about then consider seriously deleting them for a season, and just bostering the rank and business profiles of noble houses while letting the rest of the game and players fill the gap.

As for the hunting roles that the GMHs used to have, i would leave that as contracts for byn or indies. It would be pulling content from them to add the roles back in and hunting continuously not needed vs just having just a handful of fun hunts that can be contracted out.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

This is a permadeath game. Having access to good gear, weapon and armors should be equal to having a second life. Crafting should be the most popular subclasses right next to mages and stealth in terms of survivability and combat effectiveness.

But it isn't.

This is for two reasons. First gear last forever, once you get a good set, its rare to need to replace it. Secondly, the best stuff comes from salarr not player crafters, at the price easily afforded since there isnt too much need for coins. I find it ironic the the most tediuos, burnout inducing part of being a merchant in GMHs clans, the gear vending machine role is likely also the most detrimental aspect to the game.

I've always wanted gear to degrade faster than it does, for sure. I always thought I oughta have to buy new weapons too, after mine broke or grew too dull to repair.

As for the hunting roles that the GMHs used to have, i would leave that as contracts for byn or indies. It would be pulling content from them to add the roles back in and hunting continuously not needed vs just having just a handful of fun hunts that can be contracted out.

I'm fully behind this. Last I played, the Byn didn't really accept hunting contracts, but I sure thought they ought to.

[Riev]

I would like to chime in to say that the Byn definitely can and does accept contracts that involve hunting.

What they do NOT accept is hiring the Unit to hunt ON THEIR OWN. They should be at least escorting the Hunter, or being 'led' by someone who has scouted the area, or involving someone outside of the clan who is responsible for the contract.


Also on the GMH front - Whether its degradation or something else, echoing the above. Armor and weapons do not degrade that much, and the differences between them end up being negligible enough that players/PCs will save up for that 3000 coin set of armor and then they never need anything else. There is nothing "better" just "more exotic" or "rarer".

I could brainstorm ideas, but I hope this discussion leads to staff figuring out better ways to have need to purchase armor/weapons over the LIFETIME of a character.


* - Addendum - If I ever play a Salarri again and someone tells me they will "only accept an 'amazing' weapon from my stocks" I will tell you right now, they are blackballed. Good luck buying a training sword.

[mansa]

Adding a couple of ideas to capture them with all of yours

We have a way to blacklist people at a shop.  We have a way to change prices at a shop for entire clans.  But these are all done staff side.  Maybe we add a way for PC GMH folks to set these.  So if you piss off Joe Kadius he goes and sets a 25% increase to prices for you at all his house shops.

Ok that's 1 idea.

Yes please. And if it was a bad idea, and Lord Templar tradeymctradeface hears that Senior Lord fancyschancy is upset? That's plot. That's consequences of one's own actions. But don't make it go through staff. Staff can not, and should not want to, see every nuance in relationships.

...


* - Addendum - If I ever play a Salarri again and someone tells me they will "only accept an 'amazing' weapon from my stocks" I will tell you right now, they are blackballed. Good luck buying a training sword.

What's the process for blackballing someone?

I assume it's through the request system,

Do I need to specify individual NPC sellers, or can I do all NPCs in Clan House Kadius ?
Do I need to specify a time limit?

[Dresan]

Not to derail the thread on GMHs but weapons can break but its rare maybe unless you are a halfgiant etwoing. Armor does slowly degrades in condition and effectiveness until you repair it turning it as good as new, its more commonly seen on shields and newbies veing smacked around by theor sargeants.

What should be in place though is:

1. Condition should degrade for both weapons and armor affecting damage/protection/skill bonuses. This would require you to repair/maintain them. This should happen a lot quicker, like after two or three of fights but repairing and maintaining gear should also be quicker with more streamlined commands at the shop or with the skill. Sparring weapons should not degrade equipment.

2. All equipment should have different levels of durability which can be assessed. Durability should not effect conditon and would degrade much slower. However this cannot be repaired or improved, once durability hits zero the equipment becomes useless and need to be replaced.

Beyond making crafting super useful beyond coin generation, the gameplay and decision element this would add to the game amazing. For example, would you carry forward with your armor in tatters or do you hire some one to repair to work with you and repair it along the way. Those merchant byner or raider/crafter would be as important as medics in longer missions (i mean assuming the game didnt have hacknslash levels of health regen but thats another thread). High quality gear reward from nobles or clients would also become invaluable further improving value of crafting in the game.

[Master Color]

I would cut GMH roles out of the game entirely. Maybe setup a merchant guild that supports characters that want to build their own little merchant empire.

[Riev]

What's the process for blackballing someone?

I assume it's through the request system,

Do I need to specify individual NPC sellers, or can I do all NPCs in Clan House Kadius ?
Do I need to specify a time limit?

Staff mentioned previously that they CAN, on their end, cause individual to be unable to use certain merchant NPCs and/or force them to have to use different discount/pay structures. Like how an elf might have to pay more than a human, only on an individual basis.

It is set up through staff, and I'm sure there would need to be reasons. Woe to the Kadian Merchant who puts all of House Fale on the Blacklist though.


Along with @Dresan 's slight derail but related to GMHs - Resizing at an NPC typically returns an item with maximum durability which makes the Armor Repair skill moot. Can you brainstorm a way to make "degraded but not broken" arms and armor be less effective while simultaneously removing the ability to just instantly have an NPC repair your items to full status?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I would like to chime in to say that the Byn definitely can and does accept contracts that involve hunting.

What they do NOT accept is hiring the Unit to hunt ON THEIR OWN. They should be at least escorting the Hunter, or being 'led' by someone who has scouted the area, or involving someone outside of the clan who is responsible for the contract.

Then that perfectly lends itself to a GMH maintaining 1 Hunter/Soldier to lead the Byn out on their mission.

Dope.

[Valkyrja]

How do y'all feel about the Salarri Expansion Division and/or Kuraci Outriders? Any good experiences you think translates to the modern Arm?

Totally hypothetical. Seemingly nothing will come from this line of questioning, surely.

[Riev]

I only got to play one half-way significant role in the Salarri Expansion Division, and if anything saw it through the eyes of other people.

I liked the idea of House Hands (obviously). I liked that it gave Khortoc and Midge the room to 'expand' the offerings of the House. Engender war. FIRE KANKS.

I don't know much about the Outriders, but I think if it was anywhere similar to the Expansion Division that it gave the GMH leaders something we haven't had since: the ability to make lateral moves that may embarrass your DIVISION but not the whole House.

If you could find a way to mix around the Falcons/Steel Guard/Outriders with the ideas that spurred the Expansion Division I would be interested. A route for non-skinning/non-crafting employees of a GMH.

[digitaleak]

I haven't played in a GMH clan or Merchant role, so I'm just shooting out ideas from my limited perspective.

Would it make sense to have one GMH clan that encompasses all the crafting houses as separate divisions? The reason I ask is because if someone does want to play a crafter or hunter that has access to the best of the best, I think they should still have an official place to go and do their thing. However, I'm wondering if this would help consolidate their influence into one larger force.

[Delusion]

I think there were Outriders when I had a good stint in Kurac. There was certainly a very active Fist presence. They were great. Merchant houses having private militaries gives them a whole lot more real clout in actual game terms, rather than in some theoretical way where they're never seen, as well as just more to RP about. They're fun to have. The same has always applied to noble houses too. More PCs in a group is usually better. The drive towards and enforcement of clans being small isn't fun, but I refer back to my earlier point that if people want to play in a group, let them.

[flurry]

For those of you that played in Agent vs Merchant — what difference in play did you notice?

The big one is that an Agent could usually redirect business to an active Merchant, if there is one. Given a choice, I would certainly prefer to play an Agent for that reason.

On a related note, I wonder if it would be worthwhile to have a culture change so that GMH family members only take item orders from VIP's, not from the general public. Some random runner doesn't need a personal shopping assistant. That's a change that would perhaps only work with expanded offerings at the shops.  But I can see several potential benefits from this, including reducing the "vending machine" phenomenon and adding another incentive for commoners to curry favor with nobles.

[flurry]

How do y'all feel about the Salarri Expansion Division and/or Kuraci Outriders? Any good experiences you think translates to the modern Arm?

I think having those in-game could be great, adding another facet to those clans.  One of my more enjoyable GMH experiences was playing in Kurac when there was a great ensemble of PC's, including Outriders.

As much as it would be fun to see those things return, from my perspective what makes them special is also a potential problem. Namely, from my understanding they act fairly autonomously with respect to the rest of the clan, at least in practice if not by design. That could lead to those units pursuing goals that are not at all in the House's best interests. It would be difficult to rein that in, unless from within those units.  Maybe that's a feature, not a flaw, but it's something to consider.

[Dresan]

How do y'all feel about the Salarri Expansion Division and/or Kuraci Outriders? Any good experiences you think translates to the modern Arm?

Totally hypothetical. Seemingly nothing will come from this line of questioning, surely.

Ultimately the environment that made GMHs fun and unique, the balance of profit, politics and adventure between two city states is gone.

Kuraci outriders were iconic roles and experiences in their time, same with salarr expansion division for those that experienced it. However I am sure the same could be said about tor scorpion or any number of elite groups that exist within allanak, all which could be much more useful in bostering the political scene between competing houses. Lets keep in mind, this isnt one clan, its three clan, all needing people to offer the same experience and ultimately play around in the same political arena.

Its funny these threads used to exist for dry noble roles, but with GMHs roles becoming nobility-lite, here we are.Heck some merchant and agents had the ability to ride out with their hunter/soldiers, its more a trend now for them to be more like nobles and have others do it, which i guess is why people are asking for basically room for an aide.

Luirs in particular feels like a tragedy, a small outpost where you could hide away from the troubles of the citystates seems long gone under the thumb of the merchant nobility. GMHs cannot even give the illusion of neutrality in this setting. I think luirs would be better served being taken over by tuluk with allanak plotting ways to take it for themselves.

Maybe thats the problem, they gotten too big and successful for their own good. Let them lose luirs, and lose the political game, all whike having the true nobility cut huge chunks of meat from them to keep for themselves. Force GMHs to consolidate and look to remote dangerous places for riches and opporunties to survive through dangerous expeditions and campaigns. Slap their egos so hard they no longer seek to complete with indies and player clans but instead work/trade with them on ventures and opportunities, with hopes of slow mergers to boster the ranks and hopefully survive.

The setting shouldnt be mage fall, it should be merchant fall.

[Lizzie]

I was a victim of the Salarr Expansion, and loved it. They were kickass and awesome, went on insane adventures, got into all kinds of shenanigans.  Thing is though, they existed in conjunction with the "end of the world" plotline(s). Without a batshit crazy world-wide plotline, SE seems kind of pointless and hollow.

Kuraci Fist was the military of Luir's Outpost, precisely because Kurac owned Luir's. Now that Kurac isn't #1 owner of Luir's - the Fist seems pointless and hollow.

The Outriders were a whole nuther ballgame and I'd love to see them restored. But to do that, they'd need to maintain certain "FOIC" aspects of them, so I won't go into detail here.

[Dresan]

The Outriders were a whole nuther ballgame and I'd love to see them restored.

I always wanted to become an outrider.

But thats the thing, to me this is an earned achievement, given to someone who after years of service and accomplishments. Given to a strong character that has earned the right to become part the elite. Duty wise, they were no different than a kuraci fist regular/sergeant with a bit more freedom, at least they were back when people could still earn the title.

Taking applications, buffing some sponsored role and calling them Outrider is really missing the point. The title of badass has to be earned, it cannot just be given.

[Riev]

Taking applications, buffing some sponsored role and calling them Outrider is really missing the point. The title of badass has to be earned, it cannot just be given.

Can I ask what strawman argument you're attacking with this? Nowhere in this thread did anyone suggest making Outriders some sponsored buffed role. Unless I missed something.

Otherwise, I DO agree... if one of the plans to make a GMH more interesting is to re-instate the soldier ranks available to PCs, it shouldn't be 'just another soldier role with Byn-Sergeant stats'.

[Lizzie]

Taking applications, buffing some sponsored role and calling them Outrider is really missing the point. The title of badass has to be earned, it cannot just be given.

Can I ask what strawman argument you're attacking with this? Nowhere in this thread did anyone suggest making Outriders some sponsored buffed role. Unless I missed something.

Otherwise, I DO agree... if one of the plans to make a GMH more interesting is to re-instate the soldier ranks available to PCs, it shouldn't be 'just another soldier role with Byn-Sergeant stats'.

I'm considering the context of his post, not just the content. He's responding to me. I said I felt the Kuraci Fist is pointless and hollow, as long as Luir's Outpost is no longer under Kurac's sole authority.  If you expand on that - and Luir's continues to be a shared outpost with multiple points of authority, then the Outriders would have to be something that they never were - which is to say, either sponsored in, or people could get hired AS an Outrider from day 1.

I'd absolutely love to see the Outriders return. But it won't return in the way it used to be (which was what made them so awesome), without the Kuraci Fist being a playable clan. And that will be pointless and hollow, if Luir's is still occupied by the GMH multi-clan authority.

[Riev]

Oh! If thats the case, I get it. It just seemed out of the way to suddenly say they shouldn't allow apps in when there wasn't a context.

I didn't play Outriders, but if the other 2 (... three if you count Nenyuk, which I don't) GMHs get soldier-type ranks, Kurac should have one. Even if the last King's Age changes how the Outriders are seen, etc.