GMH Feedback

[Halaster]

We're looking for feedback on how to make GMH roles more interesting to play.  I know there have been threads in the past, but I'd like a modern, constructive thread about the topic.  So let's hear what you all think would make these roles more enticing to play.

[HazelHomewrecker]

GMH would be infinitely more fun if our fellow players didn't treat the sponsored roles in those roles like NPC vending machines. Also, harassing them on day 1 is rude and annoying to deal with and contributes to GMH merchant burnout. There is so much more that these characters can offer to plots and basic slice of life roleplay, they're CHARACTERS for christ's sake.

When I played in GMH I got to go back and read through some pretty interesting diaries and GDB threads in their clan docs about some awesome, interesting, unique shit they got to get up to instead of having to handle petty nastiness from annoying nobles and templars who are peeved that their silk thong wasn't ready in a timely fashion. That's what I want to see in GMH, less vending machine, more relevance.

Really it just boils down to: respect GMH merchants. They're part of a prestigious cartel House with tons of background power and influence. They're not basic commoner nobodies, and they're not there to be extorted for obscene amounts of coin just because you're a templar and you said "gimme."

[Delusion]

As far as playing PCs at higher levels goes, I had a great experience in Kurac back when it had the Fist and all that cool stuff, even playing a relatively senior PC. I did most of my interaction with the House by speaking with an actual NPC. I had a bad experience in another GMH, even with an active clan, because most other players and indeed staff saw a sponsored role as a vending machine. I did frequent character reports, which were required by the role, and the effort that I put in was in no way matched by staff.

I have also played a few lower-level GMH PCs over the years. How that goes is very heavily dependent on the clan lead.

Here are some thoughts.

Don't limit the size of clans people are clearly having fun in. Run some plots that challenge them instead.

Scrap mandatory character reports. If the player doesn't have anything of interest to say, you're just taking a chunk of their time with a form that they're going to struggle to fill in. The time I put into them was never matched by staff. "Noted" is never a satisfactory response to a submission that you have required them to make as a condition of having a character. It's a weird, one-sided affair. Consider animating NPCs instead. If a storyteller genuinely doesn't have time to do 30 minutes of RP with someone, they probably don't have time to act meaningfully on a clan leader's character report either, and so shouldn't ask for one.

Make all GMH wares available in the warehouse. Literally all of them. Make a bunch of new vendors to spread it out if needed. Loading up stuff every week or whatever is just tedious all round.

Make sure that clan leaders understand that there are other players behind their PC minions. The best clan leads have been those who let people take the initiative and to get out and do stuff, whether it's to make money, gather information, or whatever. That's more a Byn problem than a GMH problem anyway, but GMH rules being loosened up too would be good.

Support GMH projects. If GMH PCs want to do some stuff, say yes to it. Set out the criteria they need to reach. Let them take the initiative. Don't, however, do this by just having some senior NPC come down and order everyone that it's just got to be done. There's a world of difference between players doing something they've come up with and are invested in and that.

Kind of related to that, bring on sponsored GMH PCs at full agent roles. Lift up that glass ceiling. Let them aspire to senior agent. Actually give them clout inside their organisations.

I realize this stuff is pretty baked into the game structure, but genuinely think all the red tape and staff saying no would have to go before any other changes are meaningful.

[Dresan]

This is really a question about what we want to see clans and player crafting to be within a world with a consolidated smaller player base.

I will start with what the benefits of GMHs were in the past vs what they have been able to accomplish in the current environment. There were an assortment of other benefits to joining these clans, as well as different experiences or role opportunities depending if you joined salarr, kadius or kurac.

In the past GMHs clans were able to provide:

• Ability to travel to different city states while being protected, joining in the events and rubbing elbows with both locations.
• Often protection from the cut throat politics of either city state, while still being in the know or a pawn in plots
• If you join as a hunter, you got the freedom from schedules while being able to hunt as you pleased or train with other hunters in facilities
• Access to the good stuff at a discount

Unfortunately, without Tuluk as a major location to play GMH lost a major benefit for existing. i don't think having them own Luirs benefited the game at all, because they could never play a truly neutral party against any city state, especially in a scenario where one was open and the other was not.

Hunting has also lost much of its appeal as form of training, and if you really wanted to become better at combat you were just better off joining the byn. Heck, for dangerous hunts or escorts, the byn was hired to come assist anyways making the hunter kinda redundant role. Later this role was eliminated and indie players had an option of filling some of the demands, but  it feels like handouts and charity to grebbers and newb hunters. Sadly there are just better ways to make coins rather than hunting unless you can craft the stuff you hunt into something.

The worst part of GMHs has been:

• GMH clans have attacked indie crafters or businesses further hindering player based economy and plots in general
• It makes player crafting worthless because the best stuff always comes from GMH crafters/shops
• The clan merchants are overloaded with requests for the best stuff
• The hunter role is basically a useless role with militia and Byn existing

I bolded my first point because since the purpose of GMHs is to remain politically neutral publicly and they can't really go after other GMH sponsored roles easily so it leaves these people who who aren't burnt out from being vending machines to have nothing better to do them go after indie or unaffiliated player in the lamest ways possible.

This is not to mention they are all organizations with additional clan issues which I've highlighted here:Design ideas for a smaller scalable world


My recommendation,I think we should explore GMHs not disappearing but becoming tiny to the point of insignificance, maybe all of them retreating to Luirs and becoming part of the background. The noble houses would have stolen many of the resources, contracts and the techniques for themselves with much overlap between the houses.

Nobility would have a vested interest in hiring and sponsoring merchant and crafters, not to sell shit to grebbers but to ensure they themselves have a supply of the best stuff in the game, not just for themselves but as gifts, bribes and rewards to others. Merchants/crafters who work for nobles would get access to the these crafting techniques and tools, even if virtually so just like joining a GMH before, new crafting options would open up to these players as representation of having access the stuff the noble houses stole. This would make working for nobles or just getting on their good graces really valuable, since they can offer more than just coins, its the only way you get access to the good shit. In turn this would also pump demand from these crafters and merchants working for nobility for goods and resources to both indie hunters and byn. There would be much more support and care from the elite given to player clans, who may eventually achieve the ability to produce GMH level stuff with enough growth, with deep cutthroat politics involving much more than who is selling crap to grebbers.

As for the rest of the playerbase...either you craft your shit, steal it, or buy whatever is available in stores. Stores should have a greater selection especially in Luirs, and there should an additional a small random rotation, allowing player crafters to learn long lost recipes. I would even go as far as adding durability to stuff, different from repair, durability of both weapons would go down if striking or getting struck with anything other than fists and sparring weapons. After a few months of using something, no matter how good, you would need to replace it. This would make sure crafting is always useful beyond just making coins. As for those too poor or too lazy to maintain their weapons and armor, just make sure there are always loincloths and 2 sid weapons available for use. Either way it would all make crafting infinitely more useful than just for gathering coins. 

All in all, making the GMHs virtual and integrating their fun responsibilities and role they have had in the past into noble houses that can engage in political warfare, while allowing players, shops and other automated processes to take over supplying the populace with stuff will work best in a smaller more consolidated game.

[Lizzie]

Disagree with sponsored or "leadership" PCs in GMHs not needing to report weekly. If it's too inconvenient to submit a request report saying "nothing new, see last week's report for current events" then it's too inconvenient to play the role.

If "nothing new" happens on a weekly basis, over and over again, then something is amiss, and you and your staff need to communicate with each other about it. If you're frustrated because there aren't any customers, well - a weekly report is a great place to express that. If you think your customers are dead and they owe you money, the weekly report is a good spot to point that out. If your minions are missing, and you haven't spoken with them all week, again - point it out in your character report.

[Riev]

I'm not going to bore you with pages of stuff.

GMH need to have goals that extend beyond "sell weapons, sell spice, sell fancy cabinets". Now, WHAT those goals are and can be cannot be solely on the PCs in the roles. We don't know whats 'available' to chase, or what staff are willing to assist with. Provide your sponsored roles 2-3 examples of goals they can hook in to, beyond their initial application. If they don't want to chase them, fine, but at least they will know what you're looking for.

Find a way to not specifically require a Merchant-role to have to submit an excel spreadsheet every week of what they sold or bought. Don't put the math on a player to prove they're profitable. Even if its just checking the balance of the Clan Account every report to see how "their unit" is doing... but this is a game. Not Quickbooks Simulator.

I know this is a touchy subject, but either re-allow Hunters per House, or allow each House access to their soldier ranks. I am not writing a diatribe on why, but it feels bad to know the Falcons exist, but you can't be one. It feels bad to hear about how cool the Salarri Steel Guard is but you'll never even be a recruit in them. Balance these "soldier" roles into something that helps Family Members accomplish House goals. Soldiers do not hunt, they do not craft... they enforce. Let them police the indies or something.



The end all be all, that would make a GMH fun for me? Staff that are interested in the plots I am pursuing and an understanding that after 2 RL weeks of looking for a PC to help, maybe the virtual world can make up the difference. If I'M interested in my Kadian's plot to uncover and manage a Lapis Lazuli mine ... I need staff to be interested as well, and want to HELP me achieve the goal. GMH role was fun for me as Mordat, but even I could see that none of my plots were going to go anywhere and it FELT like staff didn't care if they did.

[Kavrick]

So I'm someone who's probably played GMHs more than anything else. I love them to bits, I really enjoying being apart of a team and working towards a goal together.

My main issues have always been 'finding something to do', especially when you join as a hunter and the storehouse is filled to the brim with materials, so you only really do busywork for specific things. I think some long-term projects and general mission statements would be good, yearly targets, collaboration, stuff like that. It might be subjective, because I'm very much a 'follower' player over a 'leader' player, I enjoy being told what to do and having clear direction, while I know some people prefer to draw their own path.

Also on the hunter front, I think it'd be nice to be able to collab with other GMH hunters more. 90% of the time that I've been in a GMH, the other hunter has been just not active or in a different timezone as me. IIRC it says in the docs that GMH hunters are supposed to work together, but it feels a little difficult to organize this.

In a completely different direction, I kinda prefer the idea of having a supply and crafting seperation on houses. GMHs having hunters feeding them unlimited materials for no real cost to themselves creates a lack of coin sink in the economy. I actually think the savvy spiders existing was very good for the game as it gave GMHs groups to throw money at in a consistent way. This comes from a game design perspective where you want self-sufficiency to not be a thing. Self-sufficiency is game-death for interaction between players, because if a player can get away with doing something without needing anyone else's help, they will, even if it's overall worse for the game.

Lastly, I want to see players at the top of the food chain. I've personally had issues in the past where 'no-name' (I understand lore-wise everyone should know them, but from a player experience, they're basically strangers) animated agents or whatever appear out of nowhere to deal out punishment. The issue with animated npcs in general is a lack of ability to create rapport with them or have them really understand your character. I'd much rather be chewed out by a PC that I can interact with and have it be apart of my story than a one-time appearance that  I can't effect or change. Players being at the top also means bigger things can move, sometimes it does feel like players just don't actually have much power to change anything because all the political power in the game is held by either NPCS or virtual NPCs.

Sorry for the long post! And hello again after a long haitus, I took a long break from muds in general but I do want to try seasons. GMHs in particular are something I'm very passionate about.

[Kavrick]

I know this is a touchy subject, but either re-allow Hunters per House, or allow each House access to their soldier ranks. I am not writing a diatribe on why, but it feels bad to know the Falcons exist, but you can't be one. It feels bad to hear about how cool the Salarri Steel Guard is but you'll never even be a recruit in them. Balance these "soldier" roles into something that helps Family Members accomplish House goals. Soldiers do not hunt, they do not craft... they enforce. Let them police the indies or something.

I think being a soldier for a GMH would be more interesting than being in the legion/arm of the dragon, personally. Soldiers of fortune always have more opportunity to be involved in stuff without massive implications.

[zealus]

What would help, is to give the merchant houses some teeth. In the past, I have ran into the problem that because of being the PC merchant, you are expected to take on agent level political stuff. Except you have merchant clout.
I'd have liked to have been allowed to actually strike back against those that choose to harm house interests, instead of being effectively set-dressing for older PCs.

I envision the GMH as cartels: Insult the Kuraci? Oops, there went your thodeliv for your muls.
Insult the Salarri? Sure hope your soldiers can fight with nothing!
And so on. Give them teeth.

I think the soldier branches can help. I think being allowed to be a big boy merchant helps.
I've seen some merchants being put with an NPC babysitter on RPTs, and that felt like they weren't being taken seriously as a PC.

Make the PC leadership matter. Especially with shorter seasons.

[Riev]

Seconded for @zealus on the Apping in as a Merchant thing.

I believe the intention is to give a new sponsored-GMH member some way to advance, but when you have a blooded Junior Merchant who (by the docs) is not allowed to deal with the nobility, it really removes any care for the role.

Find a way to make lateral advancements, or don't force the equivalent of a First Trooper to negotiate and deal with a Templarate contract. GMH Juniors can't even access the warehouse, and MOST of what PCs want to order isn't craftable or requires "high end" materials that are KEPT in those warehouses.

[Eurynomos]

Just wanted to chime in and thank everyone for taking the time to write up this incisive and thoughtful feedback. Truly helpful. Thank you.

[flurry]

I don't have recent experience in a GMH sponsored role, but I think perhaps I still have relevant experience. Reading through some of the other posts in this thread, it looks like some of the same issues are still happening today that were happening several years ago.

First I feel like I should say both of the GMH sponsored roles I played were net positive experiences for me, but draining and occasionally rather frustrating.

Far and away the biggest negative issue was unreasonable expectations on the part of some other players. This manifested in the form of customer complaints about many things, often seemingly trivial, usually about items not being delivered fast enough. I think people who've never played a GMH leader don't realize the volume of those complaints, or they probably wouldn't add to them. The other aspect that may not be apparent is that often the player in the GMH role has limited control over how quickly certain things are completed, for example.

Maybe this has changed, but at the time I played GMH sponsored roles, the documentation around available items was not good.

Another issue is that some players have an issue with "unearned" leadership roles, but still want to play in a GMH and do their own thing. I've seen this as a leader, and in other GMH roles when I wasn't a leader. And I totally get it, but it's tough when the leader is trying to build toward cool experiences for the clan and needs more buy-in to get things moving.

Lastly I want to add that GMH leader roles can be a player's first step toward having more responsibility for fostering plots. So I think the storyteller assigned to GMH can make a huge difference in terms of some gentle guidance or advice from time to time, for less experienced leaders. I don't mean hand-holding or validating, but just a recognition when a leader could use a nudge to get beyond an obstacle.  This doesn't just help the fledgling leader, but the characters around them as well.

[Tuannon]

'Gimmick' protection should be a thing for each of the GMHs, and really it would provide something to do when Lord Fancypants isn't buying custom orders that he expected last week. I disagree that the Merchant Houses shouldn't be protecting their interests in that regard, however there should be more imaginative and mutually inclusive methods employed than simply hiring the Guild or whoever to harass interlopers.

I think the social issue with the Merchant Houses is that noble folks do not seem to grasp that the Merchant families have almost as much History and what not as the Noble houses of Allanak or Tuluk. I think to make the Merchant experience better this needs to be kept in mind. Again, nuance will vary according on a player by player basis.

As for the reporting thing, I don't know in what circumstances there wouldn't be something to ask your staffer for or with guidance on. I found being an (involuntary) GMH leader was very much a case of constant damage control, particularly in a period of citystate hostility. So weekly or even twice weekly pings of my staffers were required to keep things manageable.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Scrap mandatory character reports. If the player doesn't have anything of interest to say, you're just taking a chunk of their time with a form that they're going to struggle to fill in. The time I put into them was never matched by staff. "Noted" is never a satisfactory response to a submission that you have required them to make as a condition of having a character. It's a weird, one-sided affair. Consider animating NPCs instead. If a storyteller genuinely doesn't have time to do 30 minutes of RP with someone, they probably don't have time to act meaningfully on a clan leader's character report either, and so shouldn't ask for one.

Make all GMH wares available in the warehouse. Literally all of them. Make a bunch of new vendors to spread it out if needed. Loading up stuff every week or whatever is just tedious all round.

Support GMH projects. If GMH PCs want to do some stuff, say yes to it. Set out the criteria they need to reach. Let them take the initiative. Don't, however, do this by just having some senior NPC come down and order everyone that it's just got to be done. There's a world of difference between players doing something they've come up with and are invested in and that.

Very, very behind these points.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

As for the reporting thing, I don't know in what circumstances there wouldn't be something to ask your staffer for or with guidance on. I found being an (involuntary) GMH leader was very much a case of constant damage control, particularly in a period of citystate hostility. So weekly or even twice weekly pings of my staffers were required to keep things manageable.

I agree here, but it's the mandatory part that I think is the key. If you don't have anything to report, you don't have anything to report. But if you do, you want an in-depth reply from your staffer.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

...allow each House access to their soldier ranks. ...it feels bad to know the Falcons exist, but you can't be one. It feels bad to hear about how cool the Salarri Steel Guard is but you'll never even be a recruit in them. Balance these "soldier" roles into something that helps Family Members accomplish House goals. Soldiers do not hunt, they do not craft... they enforce. Let them police the indies or something.

I really like this part. I thought it was a great idea to eliminate House Hunters to promote indie hunters (not at first but eventually I did). But there are dry spells where you can't find the indie (for whatever reason, schedules or lack of skilled indies). While not having hunters in-house doesn't make sense IC, it does for sake of OOC interaction.

If you have in-house thugs who will go fetch you some hides and shells if they have to, but mostly just go around harrassing indie hunters who won't deal or indie merchants stepping on their House's toes, well that works out nicely.

[Riev]

In my mind, the PC Soldier roles for GMHs would be similar to the old Salarri Left Hand role from many years ago.


Imagine a Kadian Falcon PC whose job is actually to get in good with the Indie hunters and crafters and support them, so the House has a good idea who to hire.

Imagine conversely, a Salarr Steel Guard is doing the same thing, but they are informing the Guild to break into the right warehouses or telling the Crimson Wind when the indie hunters are out and about.

Or even outside of that? A House Hand whose job is to steal things sold to PCs, to increase profit. Perhaps they are trying to spark tensions in the 'rinth, or works with staff to 'outfit' an NPC raider group to cause more disturbance to the city.


Introducing the GMH Soldiers would be spectacular, and something a House Hunter should strive for. Or even give a Bynner something to 'grow into'. They would just need a place in the society.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

In my mind, the PC Soldier roles for GMHs would be similar to the old Salarri Left Hand role from many years ago.


Imagine a Kadian Falcon PC whose job is actually to get in good with the Indie hunters and crafters and support them, so the House has a good idea who to hire.

Imagine conversely, a Salarr Steel Guard is doing the same thing, but they are informing the Guild to break into the right warehouses or telling the Crimson Wind when the indie hunters are out and about.

Or even outside of that? A House Hand whose job is to steal things sold to PCs, to increase profit. Perhaps they are trying to spark tensions in the 'rinth, or works with staff to 'outfit' an NPC raider group to cause more disturbance to the city.


Introducing the GMH Soldiers would be spectacular, and something a House Hunter should strive for. Or even give a Bynner something to 'grow into'. They would just need a place in the society.

Well, what if a GMH Hunter is kind of like a mentor for newb hunters, takes them out to hunt scrab or whatever. The GMH Hunter might also be the one to hire the Byn to take out the Ankheg, or push into Tribal lands, etc. Kind of the Wilderness Liaison for the GMH Merchant.

I think it's better to not give the GMHs hunters, but somebody who can groom indie hunters so they can hunt bigger game for the Merchant, etc, is probably an important role. That same Hunter could be the "muscle" for the Merchant, in various ways.

[Tuannon]

I think GMH salesfolk should be supporting Indy HUNTERS but mildly or blatantly pressuring Indy CRAFTERS, especially the ones that sell weapons in front of an active Salarr presence or whatever as determined by what GMH you are part of.

Some of the best Salarr play for me was negotiating/trading with people in the Pah for products.

But you'll always get the unga bunga max level hunters who think they can go wherever they like with impunity.

So the thing I hate about the game OOCly is what it needs IC (in my opinion). Which is to say double standards that broaden gameplay.

[Riev]

Well, what if a GMH Hunter is kind of like a mentor for newb hunters, takes them out to hunt scrab or whatever. The GMH Hunter might also be the one to hire the Byn to take out the Ankheg, or push into Tribal lands, etc. Kind of the Wilderness Liaison for the GMH Merchant.

I think it's better to not give the GMHs hunters, but somebody who can groom indie hunters so they can hunt bigger game for the Merchant, etc, is probably an important role. That same Hunter could be the "muscle" for the Merchant, in various ways.

This is the current/very recently previous incarnation of House Hunters. 2 per House, and their job was more to be a liason. Hire the Byn to HELP THEM hunt a bahamet. Work with newbie hunters to teach them the ropes, while using them as chalton fodder in case a spider comes by.

It just doesn't tend to work that way because House Hunters don't get paid that well, and Indie Hunters need a constant stream of coin.

[FamousAmos]

No more PC sweatshops. As a maker I was always stuck within a compound to mass produce items for the many orders we had. I rarely had a break to actually RP and get out of the compound.

Make crafting not mandatory but optional. If the player is wanting to try their hands on making things, they'll opt to make some themselves.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I tend to think that GMH crafters should focus on mastercrafts, and maybe boosting their own coin (minus house take of course) with the random crafts (which you do to branch skills of course) that get shunted to their shops, while otherwise living the life of fops. Sure, you might need to make four garnet Kadian thongs, but then back to the wine and your most recent bright invention.

Let indies do all of that hard work. You are a specialist. You need that bottle of wine to contemplate the next turn of leather on your strappy white high-heeled sandals you've been making.

And GMH merchants shouldn't ever sell (outside of their shops) the necklace that isn't a House Craft. If you come to a GMH, you come for the GMH products, or you come for the import they have (such as the braxat-carved stone bench that the elves in the Tablelands offer that your friendly GMH merchant got their hands on). Otherwise, you go to Bob the Builder.

This actually would do two things. One, it would reduce the workload of GMH merchants a tad, but secondly it would provide a semi-grey area for indies (who on the side might sneak out a MC or two of their own, but that's hush hush, you know), whom could fill the orders for bone swords without stepping on the GMH toes.

[Evilone]

Here's some ideas I have.

1. No free food/water in clan compounds.
*Give GMH compounds high quality food preservation for containers to allow for different playtimes of hunters. If hunters bring in rare food ingredients, it should last about 1 RL week and give enough time to be able to sell to high valued targets.
*Adding to this, the container to give the food buff is a morph item like food, but with a VERY LONG timer, and is a <container>. Item gives 3 stages. 1st stage (freshly salted), 2nd (salt aged), 3rd (salt expiring). Something like that. Last stage will be very short, but will allow food to be transferred to a new container, that requires salt from the saltflats.
**This might not actually work but maybe the idea is worth investigating in some way or another, cause after thinking about it some more, even if you can make a container decay and preserve food, when it morphs, whatever is inside would be destroyed I am assuming?
***I would really like to see 'Cooks' be highly desired by clans.
****"But we have no hunters currently bringing in food, what is my crafter suppose to eat?" - Complain to your Crew Leader. If Crew Leader doesn't care, then it looks bad on their crew. Tell everyone your starving. If you are spotted buying rat from the rinth cause you poor, imagine the scandal, or you buying a cheap food option at the local tavern and are spotted by a spy, who can use that information to damage reputation of the Crew Leader/Crafter/House. Or just use your wealth to buy lavish food from the taverns, and you'll eat like a King. Good money sink to show off how well you eat. Or, leave clan.
*****Also, remember magickers are not so revolting now to deal with? Pay them for cheap water/food.

2. Monopoly or no?
*As someone who has been in the independent clan process and know it does have it's perks when you don't want to be under the thumb of others, I think it's something that should be very rare. The GMH are super powerful, and they operate like merchant Guild's do, upholding monopoly's and such, and if other groups try to get established, they need to have some serious power/relations to be able to combat the GMH. The big decision would be whether each family keeps it's monopoly, or we have it that the main three GMH can sell EVERYTHING, without it being taboo. Keep the specialisations at the higher end (Salarr can only make 'amazing' level weapons and armor, Kadius cutting faceted stones, Kurac producing bricks and knots of spice) as examples. Just imagine the competition level this could breed, but also open up more options for players who have play restrictions and can't find the only 1 Salarri merchant who can sell 'good' weapons and armor.

3. Changing the Structure.
*Each GMH 'Crew' could be run similar to like the Independant Clan System. Have a family estate, but within these estates are mini compounds. Each family member who wishes to run their own crew, needs to petition the family, and provide funds to 'rent' these compounds from the family. 2000 for basic, 4000 for moderate, 6000 for lavish. Once again, these are example figures, and are paid yearly. Or, compound will be determined by rank, and no fee paid, but would it create a more interesting dynamic if a new crew leader recruited could come in who is wealthy and go straight to a lavish compound if they desired, and show off to the couple year veteran crew leader who just wants a standard compound?
*Salarr for example would have three ranks of leadership within Crew Leader. Junior/Standard/Senior. Depending on rank could offer a discount to yearly rent for compound. Agent rank would be highest PC rank, and would overseer multiple crews.
*Each GMH House should look to run 3 different crews. 2 PC's, 1 NPC.
*Keeping a communal kitchen/messhall/training hall would be nice, to keep all the clan still interacting together and keeping them mostly united, but workrooms/storage rooms/crew leader office/bedroom could be separate.
**All crafters/merchants could have to rent from the 'GMH only apartments, but may get a SMALL locker for extreme valuables at the compound, or just have a barracks at each compound, or make it communal. Worth more thought.
*Each PC 'Crew' could use utilise it's own name, giving it some personal flavor. Crew Leaders will need to recruit, and the option is they will need to pay each member in their crew, and members will not just get a pay from a paymaster. It makes the crew leader more accountable for who they hire, and I would hope makes the positions more appealing, and cut throat. There's no OOC limit, only what the crew leader can afford.
*Being in a GMH House should be a valued job for any crafter to aspire too. Either secure storage at the compound, or better lock doors in a GMH estate that is heavily guarded. You are given more social acceptance, not allowed to wear silks commonly as example, but independants should be hassled if they show wealth and have no rank or position other than Amos the grebber, where as GMH Master Crafter would have way more standing.
**Adding to the 2 PC leaders in each GMH, this also allows for similar social status people to make enemies/friends with. Noble aides/GMH/Byn&AoD Sergeants all become similar in social status, and creates the middle-class? Gives nobles an opening to make some common 'friendships' too, instead of having to scum it with bynners, random grebber/hunter, or some elf.
*Each 'Crew Leader' of the GMH can sponsor one Jade Falcon, or Steel Guard, or Outriders. This is there second in command essentially, and is their muscle, protection, advisor, etc. This one PC must graduate from the Tor Academy. Depending on Tor Academy and how training is going to be, this PC would be considered 'in training', so title would be 'Trainee Jade Falcon', 'Trainee Steel Guard', 'Trainee Outrider'.
**These 'Elite', would have access to superior gear/equipment that no one else has, among other perks, and is the ultimate role for non family members typically to aspire too.
*Merchant branch would basically remove 'Merchant' rank, or combine crafter and merchant. See point #4 for explination.

4. Crew Leader Shops.
*Anyone who is not middle/high class shouldn't be bothering the crew leaders. Nobles need higher end/custom crafts etc so can deal with the crew leaders who are family so no worries about protocol having to be ignored because of a lack of pc roles.
*Using Salarr as an example, each crew leader gets their own NPC trader in the bazaar which is <nobuy>. The crew leader can list their own weapons and armor, and that is what is available to everyone. If Amos the Bynner needs a special weapon, he needs to get lucky with what is listed, or have some sort of special favour with Salarr for some reason, or see if their Sergeant has enough clout to bother the crew leader or their 2nd with the request.
**Running a shop is super fun. Having run shops in other RPI games, it's something they have always had a huge advantage over ARM, which for some silly reason until the last few years with independants has Arm only finally started to do.

5. Export.
*Using Salarr in another example, there needs to be a private NPC only accessible by a crew leader set up in Luir's Outpost (if still accessible) and other larger settlements. Crew Leaders can organise trade runs, but need to ensure weight levels are suitable for cart/wagon/argosy so people don't just make 500 longswords and transport them easily.
*Each Crew Leader should be issued a cart. Money sink to upgrade to wagon/argosy so can carry more and be better protected when organising trade runs.
*This NPC can be setup like the exchange NPC's, e.g Trading Gortok bodies for coins in Morrin's, but instead certain standard goods for the GMH, depending or not on weather the the monopoly system as suggested is removed or not. So a bone-bladed longsword could be traded for 20 coins. No sell limits. If you make 50 longswords, you make 1000 coins, but factor in Byn escort costs... may or may not make a profit depending how much you take to sell. Different trader ranks could give you access to different NPC buyers who might pay a little more, giving another  incentive to want to gain higher rank apart from just a change of title.

6. Collection Bins.
*All goods gathered/collected from hunters go to a large container when hunters return to be sorted by merchant branch, and only rare materials are generally kept in storage, unless specific orders have been made e.g Three sets of ebon raptor hide armor would require 20+ hides, so you'd need to keep more on hand temporarily. This worked well in Jal. All that extra crap not necessarily needed at the moment just gets swept away in a reset, so you don't get 20 piles of scrap legs, or useless bits of crap filling the warehouses, and hunters actually still required to hunt RL daily (generally).

Something extra I wanted to add. In the example Riev game about wanting to be interested in a Lapis Lazuli mine, that shouldn't be too hard to set a standard for finding such things. Let's break it down for the player who is interested in doing this.

*GMH needs to first identify a valuable vein.
*GMH hires grebbers/scouts (anyone with search skill) to go looking.
*Staff create object (an untapped, valuable source of mineral is here) that is <notake> and placed hidden in random room wherever is suitable in world.
*Grebber/Scout eventually finds such an item, and now can go back to make a report to GMH.
*GMH now need to hire Byn for guards of this valuable source. e.g 2000 coins for months guard duties. (prices subject to change this is just a vague example).
*GMH need to contact Borsail to hire slaveworkers to help establish mine and camp - Another 2000 coins for slaves to do this.
(I think we strongly need construction crafts. Five x logs, make 'a small section of a camp wall'. Then you need 4 x 'small sections of a camp wall' to make 1 x 'one side of a camp wall'. Then you can add a gate, and four sides of a camp wall, and then staff can add generic camp room to location, and also adding guard tower, tents, and so on with other crafts).
*Generic NPC's added as guards, players of the GMH can come and go and do what mining is possible until it is depleted.
*Room link removed, players move onto saving for the next adventure.

That's how I might try and improve the GMH. Hope that helps.

[Halaster]

'Gimmick' protection should be a thing for each of the GMHs, and really it would provide something to do when Lord Fancypants isn't buying custom orders that he expected last week. I disagree that the Merchant Houses shouldn't be protecting their interests in that regard, however there should be more imaginative and mutually inclusive methods employed than simply hiring the Guild or whoever to harass interlopers.

Can you elaborate more on that, some specific ideas?

[Halaster]

Adding a couple of ideas to capture them with all of yours

We have a way to blacklist people at a shop.  We have a way to change prices at a shop for entire clans.  But these are all done staff side.  Maybe we add a way for PC GMH folks to set these.  So if you piss off Joe Kadius he goes and sets a 25% increase to prices for you at all his house shops.

Ok that's 1 idea.

[Lizzie]

The blacklist idea is great, with limits.  It could be that no GMH person should be able to blacklist anyone of -higher- social status than they are. So you can blacklist Lord Bumpy's aide but you can't blacklist Lord Bumpy himself.  If you want Lord Bumpy blacklisted you'd still have to go to your superior (senior npc in the house), or maybe do some politicking to get your favorite templar's blessing and some coded coordination would then give your character coded ability to get it done.

Price increases would be even better. Afterall the GMHs are in business to make money, not refuse it. So maybe Lord Bumpy's aide has to pay 25% more than anyone else in Allanak. But if the Aide is willing to risk life and limb they could still get it cheaper by travelling to Tuluk. Or involve someone else to acquire it on his behalf, thus giving tasks to other PCs, reason to travel, jobs for independents, and so on.

[zealus]

Adding a couple of ideas to capture them with all of yours

We have a way to blacklist people at a shop.  We have a way to change prices at a shop for entire clans.  But these are all done staff side.  Maybe we add a way for PC GMH folks to set these.  So if you piss off Joe Kadius he goes and sets a 25% increase to prices for you at all his house shops.

Ok that's 1 idea.

Yes please. And if it was a bad idea, and Lord Templar tradeymctradeface hears that Senior Lord fancyschancy is upset? That's plot. That's consequences of one's own actions. But don't make it go through staff. Staff can not, and should not want to, see every nuance in relationships.

[Eurynomos]

Part of the problem I've seen over the years when staffing for GMH is...

"Let me ask my Senior..."

Which I think was baked into GMH at some point and I don't know when. Maybe it was Staff, maybe it was players, maybe a combination of both (more likely).

I'd love for PC GMH family to have more latitude to make decisions on their own, for better and for worse. I personally found that more true for the Agent branch than the Merchant branch.

For those of you that played in Agent vs Merchant — what difference in play did you notice?

Another question — what rules / regulations felt arbitrary? One that comes to mind was the micro managing of who was/was not allowed in the Estates. Any others comes to mind that were more stifling than helpful?

[Tuannon]

@Halaster

Okay

If I am playing an indy crafter who specializes in weapons or armour and I'm selling a whole bunch of stock in Allanak (and not paying bribes or kick backs to keep it quiet), I should expect to be paid a visit by either the Trade Ministry or House Salarr or ideally both.

They may have minor disagreements about how best to get their pound of flesh from me, but it should be certain that some attention should come of my endeavours into Salarr's sovereignity as arms dealers.

The exact interaction between Salarr and my indy should vary based on a number of situations and scenarios, maybe we sit down for a nice chat and I agree to do contracts for Salarr in return for not getting a visit from some ratty rooftop elves or whatever.

Also I think a few examples of what a Merchant/Agent/Sergeant might do to facilitate a suitable address to an upstart in their operation area would also be good.

Maybe if they start to brag you start buying out their stockists, or you start rumour milling or whatever.

Sure, it's more work for staff but if there is a framework in place for how these scenarios go down, the players can do a lot of the heavy lifting and staff just have to do animations or what have you just to arbitrate them.

[Delusion]

Part of the problem I've seen over the years when staffing for GMH is...

"Let me ask my Senior..."

Which I think was baked into GMH at some point and I don't know when. Maybe it was Staff, maybe it was players, maybe a combination of both (more likely).

I'd love for PC GMH family to have more latitude to make decisions on their own, for better and for worse. I personally found that more true for the Agent branch than the Merchant branch.

For those of you that played in Agent vs Merchant — what difference in play did you notice?

Another question — what rules / regulations felt arbitrary? One that comes to mind was the micro managing of who was/was not allowed in the Estates. Any others comes to mind that were more stifling than helpful?

The "Let me ask my senior" business is just all around not good. Typically, the answer has always been a no, because senior NPCs are all super risk adverse. Coming from me who often plays risk averse PCs, staff-run NPCs are typically absolute wusses, unwilling for their house to take even the smallest risk. The solution is to better empower player characters to make these decisions and for staff to support them by having the world react accordingly, whether the decision is good or bad.

Honestly, the entire Merchant/Agent branch split is basically a Vending Machine/Cool Stuff split. If the vending machine side was disposed of, then everyone could just do cool stuff, and you wouldn't need the split.

As for micromanaging rules, in no particular order, stuff I would change is this.

Micromanaging who can sell what to whom. Practically speaking, PC leaders often delegated sales anyway. Just scale all that way back. Once someone's past the recruit stage, let them sell some stuff. Put the focus on the actual merchant part of merchant houses.

Tidy up the rules on who can come into estates. If someone comes along with a delivery, what's the problem with them passing by the gates to leave it in? When doing business deals, it makes more sense for GMHs to do this behind closed doors than in the backroom of Red's Retreat or whatever.

Get rid of a requirement to hang out and spamcraft. Others have alluded to this but this is no more conducive to an interesting game experience than people sparring or foraging salt for hours on end. It's fine if that's what people want to do but if it's an IC requirement, people just won't play. This has varied heavily depending on clan lead. Cool clan leads won't require it and it has never actually hurt the clan. Focus on mastercrafts as other people have suggested, instead.

[Dresan]

I dont have too much skin in this area of the game since I often play dirty, poor mundanes these days. Allanak nobility have no relationships with its citizen and GMHs are only useful to people that one time when you buy your set of gear. In my experience trickle down plot economics don't work so these thing have no effect on my play style usually.


That said just some things to note:

1. Both noble houses and GMHs have had issues where there isn't anything to do, and are boring.  Combining noble and portions of GMH responsabilities would solve this by increasing interactions within houses and overall goals, not to mention competition between houses which could rise and disappear throughput the season. However if combining these entities isn't an option, consider combining GMHs into one organization if only publically.

GMHs have offered different experiences in the past but less so these days, where neutrality is non-existant.  They all play like minor nobles in the city and major ones in luirs and other places, not so much like merchants trying to survive in the entire known. Some of the things described as fun gimicks for GMHs could are very similar to what is being asked of nobles, this makes sense because the current GMHs are like a minor noble house. Lastly have Tuluk take over luirs for this season, keeping GMHs in check if only virtually.


2. This is a permadeath game. Having access to good gear, weapon and armors should be equal to having a second life. Crafting should be the most popular subclasses right next to mages and stealth in terms of survivability and combat effectiveness.

But it isn't.

This is for two reasons. First gear last forever, once you get a good set, its rare to need to replace it. Secondly, the best stuff comes from salarr not player crafters, at the price easily afforded since there isnt too much need for coins. I find it ironic the the most tediuos, burnout inducing part of being a merchant in GMHs clans, the gear vending machine role is likely also the most detrimental aspect to the game.


3. If gear vending machines and bullying indies trying to sell to the couple of players willing to buy their worthless stuff is still what GMHs are about then consider seriously deleting them for a season, and just bostering the rank and business profiles of noble houses while letting the rest of the game and players fill the gap.

As for the hunting roles that the GMHs used to have, i would leave that as contracts for byn or indies. It would be pulling content from them to add the roles back in and hunting continuously not needed vs just having just a handful of fun hunts that can be contracted out.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

This is a permadeath game. Having access to good gear, weapon and armors should be equal to having a second life. Crafting should be the most popular subclasses right next to mages and stealth in terms of survivability and combat effectiveness.

But it isn't.

This is for two reasons. First gear last forever, once you get a good set, its rare to need to replace it. Secondly, the best stuff comes from salarr not player crafters, at the price easily afforded since there isnt too much need for coins. I find it ironic the the most tediuos, burnout inducing part of being a merchant in GMHs clans, the gear vending machine role is likely also the most detrimental aspect to the game.

I've always wanted gear to degrade faster than it does, for sure. I always thought I oughta have to buy new weapons too, after mine broke or grew too dull to repair.

As for the hunting roles that the GMHs used to have, i would leave that as contracts for byn or indies. It would be pulling content from them to add the roles back in and hunting continuously not needed vs just having just a handful of fun hunts that can be contracted out.

I'm fully behind this. Last I played, the Byn didn't really accept hunting contracts, but I sure thought they ought to.

[Riev]

I would like to chime in to say that the Byn definitely can and does accept contracts that involve hunting.

What they do NOT accept is hiring the Unit to hunt ON THEIR OWN. They should be at least escorting the Hunter, or being 'led' by someone who has scouted the area, or involving someone outside of the clan who is responsible for the contract.


Also on the GMH front - Whether its degradation or something else, echoing the above. Armor and weapons do not degrade that much, and the differences between them end up being negligible enough that players/PCs will save up for that 3000 coin set of armor and then they never need anything else. There is nothing "better" just "more exotic" or "rarer".

I could brainstorm ideas, but I hope this discussion leads to staff figuring out better ways to have need to purchase armor/weapons over the LIFETIME of a character.


* - Addendum - If I ever play a Salarri again and someone tells me they will "only accept an 'amazing' weapon from my stocks" I will tell you right now, they are blackballed. Good luck buying a training sword.

[mansa]

Adding a couple of ideas to capture them with all of yours

We have a way to blacklist people at a shop.  We have a way to change prices at a shop for entire clans.  But these are all done staff side.  Maybe we add a way for PC GMH folks to set these.  So if you piss off Joe Kadius he goes and sets a 25% increase to prices for you at all his house shops.

Ok that's 1 idea.

Yes please. And if it was a bad idea, and Lord Templar tradeymctradeface hears that Senior Lord fancyschancy is upset? That's plot. That's consequences of one's own actions. But don't make it go through staff. Staff can not, and should not want to, see every nuance in relationships.

...


* - Addendum - If I ever play a Salarri again and someone tells me they will "only accept an 'amazing' weapon from my stocks" I will tell you right now, they are blackballed. Good luck buying a training sword.

What's the process for blackballing someone?

I assume it's through the request system,

Do I need to specify individual NPC sellers, or can I do all NPCs in Clan House Kadius ?
Do I need to specify a time limit?

[Dresan]

Not to derail the thread on GMHs but weapons can break but its rare maybe unless you are a halfgiant etwoing. Armor does slowly degrades in condition and effectiveness until you repair it turning it as good as new, its more commonly seen on shields and newbies veing smacked around by theor sargeants.

What should be in place though is:

1. Condition should degrade for both weapons and armor affecting damage/protection/skill bonuses. This would require you to repair/maintain them. This should happen a lot quicker, like after two or three of fights but repairing and maintaining gear should also be quicker with more streamlined commands at the shop or with the skill. Sparring weapons should not degrade equipment.

2. All equipment should have different levels of durability which can be assessed. Durability should not effect conditon and would degrade much slower. However this cannot be repaired or improved, once durability hits zero the equipment becomes useless and need to be replaced.

Beyond making crafting super useful beyond coin generation, the gameplay and decision element this would add to the game amazing. For example, would you carry forward with your armor in tatters or do you hire some one to repair to work with you and repair it along the way. Those merchant byner or raider/crafter would be as important as medics in longer missions (i mean assuming the game didnt have hacknslash levels of health regen but thats another thread). High quality gear reward from nobles or clients would also become invaluable further improving value of crafting in the game.

[Master Color]

I would cut GMH roles out of the game entirely. Maybe setup a merchant guild that supports characters that want to build their own little merchant empire.

[Riev]

What's the process for blackballing someone?

I assume it's through the request system,

Do I need to specify individual NPC sellers, or can I do all NPCs in Clan House Kadius ?
Do I need to specify a time limit?

Staff mentioned previously that they CAN, on their end, cause individual to be unable to use certain merchant NPCs and/or force them to have to use different discount/pay structures. Like how an elf might have to pay more than a human, only on an individual basis.

It is set up through staff, and I'm sure there would need to be reasons. Woe to the Kadian Merchant who puts all of House Fale on the Blacklist though.


Along with @Dresan 's slight derail but related to GMHs - Resizing at an NPC typically returns an item with maximum durability which makes the Armor Repair skill moot. Can you brainstorm a way to make "degraded but not broken" arms and armor be less effective while simultaneously removing the ability to just instantly have an NPC repair your items to full status?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I would like to chime in to say that the Byn definitely can and does accept contracts that involve hunting.

What they do NOT accept is hiring the Unit to hunt ON THEIR OWN. They should be at least escorting the Hunter, or being 'led' by someone who has scouted the area, or involving someone outside of the clan who is responsible for the contract.

Then that perfectly lends itself to a GMH maintaining 1 Hunter/Soldier to lead the Byn out on their mission.

Dope.

[Valkyrja]

How do y'all feel about the Salarri Expansion Division and/or Kuraci Outriders? Any good experiences you think translates to the modern Arm?

Totally hypothetical. Seemingly nothing will come from this line of questioning, surely.

[Riev]

I only got to play one half-way significant role in the Salarri Expansion Division, and if anything saw it through the eyes of other people.

I liked the idea of House Hands (obviously). I liked that it gave Khortoc and Midge the room to 'expand' the offerings of the House. Engender war. FIRE KANKS.

I don't know much about the Outriders, but I think if it was anywhere similar to the Expansion Division that it gave the GMH leaders something we haven't had since: the ability to make lateral moves that may embarrass your DIVISION but not the whole House.

If you could find a way to mix around the Falcons/Steel Guard/Outriders with the ideas that spurred the Expansion Division I would be interested. A route for non-skinning/non-crafting employees of a GMH.

[digitaleak]

I haven't played in a GMH clan or Merchant role, so I'm just shooting out ideas from my limited perspective.

Would it make sense to have one GMH clan that encompasses all the crafting houses as separate divisions? The reason I ask is because if someone does want to play a crafter or hunter that has access to the best of the best, I think they should still have an official place to go and do their thing. However, I'm wondering if this would help consolidate their influence into one larger force.

[Delusion]

I think there were Outriders when I had a good stint in Kurac. There was certainly a very active Fist presence. They were great. Merchant houses having private militaries gives them a whole lot more real clout in actual game terms, rather than in some theoretical way where they're never seen, as well as just more to RP about. They're fun to have. The same has always applied to noble houses too. More PCs in a group is usually better. The drive towards and enforcement of clans being small isn't fun, but I refer back to my earlier point that if people want to play in a group, let them.

[flurry]

For those of you that played in Agent vs Merchant — what difference in play did you notice?

The big one is that an Agent could usually redirect business to an active Merchant, if there is one. Given a choice, I would certainly prefer to play an Agent for that reason.

On a related note, I wonder if it would be worthwhile to have a culture change so that GMH family members only take item orders from VIP's, not from the general public. Some random runner doesn't need a personal shopping assistant. That's a change that would perhaps only work with expanded offerings at the shops.  But I can see several potential benefits from this, including reducing the "vending machine" phenomenon and adding another incentive for commoners to curry favor with nobles.

[flurry]

How do y'all feel about the Salarri Expansion Division and/or Kuraci Outriders? Any good experiences you think translates to the modern Arm?

I think having those in-game could be great, adding another facet to those clans.  One of my more enjoyable GMH experiences was playing in Kurac when there was a great ensemble of PC's, including Outriders.

As much as it would be fun to see those things return, from my perspective what makes them special is also a potential problem. Namely, from my understanding they act fairly autonomously with respect to the rest of the clan, at least in practice if not by design. That could lead to those units pursuing goals that are not at all in the House's best interests. It would be difficult to rein that in, unless from within those units.  Maybe that's a feature, not a flaw, but it's something to consider.

[Dresan]

How do y'all feel about the Salarri Expansion Division and/or Kuraci Outriders? Any good experiences you think translates to the modern Arm?

Totally hypothetical. Seemingly nothing will come from this line of questioning, surely.

Ultimately the environment that made GMHs fun and unique, the balance of profit, politics and adventure between two city states is gone.

Kuraci outriders were iconic roles and experiences in their time, same with salarr expansion division for those that experienced it. However I am sure the same could be said about tor scorpion or any number of elite groups that exist within allanak, all which could be much more useful in bostering the political scene between competing houses. Lets keep in mind, this isnt one clan, its three clan, all needing people to offer the same experience and ultimately play around in the same political arena.

Its funny these threads used to exist for dry noble roles, but with GMHs roles becoming nobility-lite, here we are.Heck some merchant and agents had the ability to ride out with their hunter/soldiers, its more a trend now for them to be more like nobles and have others do it, which i guess is why people are asking for basically room for an aide.

Luirs in particular feels like a tragedy, a small outpost where you could hide away from the troubles of the citystates seems long gone under the thumb of the merchant nobility. GMHs cannot even give the illusion of neutrality in this setting. I think luirs would be better served being taken over by tuluk with allanak plotting ways to take it for themselves.

Maybe thats the problem, they gotten too big and successful for their own good. Let them lose luirs, and lose the political game, all whike having the true nobility cut huge chunks of meat from them to keep for themselves. Force GMHs to consolidate and look to remote dangerous places for riches and opporunties to survive through dangerous expeditions and campaigns. Slap their egos so hard they no longer seek to complete with indies and player clans but instead work/trade with them on ventures and opportunities, with hopes of slow mergers to boster the ranks and hopefully survive.

The setting shouldnt be mage fall, it should be merchant fall.

[Lizzie]

I was a victim of the Salarr Expansion, and loved it. They were kickass and awesome, went on insane adventures, got into all kinds of shenanigans.  Thing is though, they existed in conjunction with the "end of the world" plotline(s). Without a batshit crazy world-wide plotline, SE seems kind of pointless and hollow.

Kuraci Fist was the military of Luir's Outpost, precisely because Kurac owned Luir's. Now that Kurac isn't #1 owner of Luir's - the Fist seems pointless and hollow.

The Outriders were a whole nuther ballgame and I'd love to see them restored. But to do that, they'd need to maintain certain "FOIC" aspects of them, so I won't go into detail here.

[Dresan]

The Outriders were a whole nuther ballgame and I'd love to see them restored.

I always wanted to become an outrider.

But thats the thing, to me this is an earned achievement, given to someone who after years of service and accomplishments. Given to a strong character that has earned the right to become part the elite. Duty wise, they were no different than a kuraci fist regular/sergeant with a bit more freedom, at least they were back when people could still earn the title.

Taking applications, buffing some sponsored role and calling them Outrider is really missing the point. The title of badass has to be earned, it cannot just be given.

[Riev]

Taking applications, buffing some sponsored role and calling them Outrider is really missing the point. The title of badass has to be earned, it cannot just be given.

Can I ask what strawman argument you're attacking with this? Nowhere in this thread did anyone suggest making Outriders some sponsored buffed role. Unless I missed something.

Otherwise, I DO agree... if one of the plans to make a GMH more interesting is to re-instate the soldier ranks available to PCs, it shouldn't be 'just another soldier role with Byn-Sergeant stats'.

[Lizzie]

Taking applications, buffing some sponsored role and calling them Outrider is really missing the point. The title of badass has to be earned, it cannot just be given.

Can I ask what strawman argument you're attacking with this? Nowhere in this thread did anyone suggest making Outriders some sponsored buffed role. Unless I missed something.

Otherwise, I DO agree... if one of the plans to make a GMH more interesting is to re-instate the soldier ranks available to PCs, it shouldn't be 'just another soldier role with Byn-Sergeant stats'.

I'm considering the context of his post, not just the content. He's responding to me. I said I felt the Kuraci Fist is pointless and hollow, as long as Luir's Outpost is no longer under Kurac's sole authority.  If you expand on that - and Luir's continues to be a shared outpost with multiple points of authority, then the Outriders would have to be something that they never were - which is to say, either sponsored in, or people could get hired AS an Outrider from day 1.

I'd absolutely love to see the Outriders return. But it won't return in the way it used to be (which was what made them so awesome), without the Kuraci Fist being a playable clan. And that will be pointless and hollow, if Luir's is still occupied by the GMH multi-clan authority.

[Riev]

Oh! If thats the case, I get it. It just seemed out of the way to suddenly say they shouldn't allow apps in when there wasn't a context.

I didn't play Outriders, but if the other 2 (... three if you count Nenyuk, which I don't) GMHs get soldier-type ranks, Kurac should have one. Even if the last King's Age changes how the Outriders are seen, etc.

[Valkyrja]

As has been stated in other places: It's good to remember that most clans will be fundamentally different to account for the time lapse, tuning the clans to what (we think, with your input) works better, and the amount of work necessary to revamp them.

What we don't want to do is just "open the Salarri Expansion Division" and then not be able to support it meaningfully.

[Lizzie]

Oh! If thats the case, I get it. It just seemed out of the way to suddenly say they shouldn't allow apps in when there wasn't a context.

I didn't play Outriders, but if the other 2 (... three if you count Nenyuk, which I don't) GMHs get soldier-type ranks, Kurac should have one. Even if the last King's Age changes how the Outriders are seen, etc.

I think it was my second character in the game who was murdered by her Outrider boyfriend per orders of their boss, Sargax, I believe. She was a House Assassin in Special Ops (though she'd never actually assassinated anyone).  Fast forward a couple of years and I played a Kurac Sergeant who aspired to become an Outrider. She was murdered by the merry band of Salarr Expansion Division marauders and their dwarven pals.

So yeah - me and the Outriders and Expansion Division got some history It was some of the funnest times of my experience in this game.

[CirclelessBard]

I think the question I would ask when considering the place of PCs in GMHs is: what should their place have been in the setting, and what would their place be after Magefall and the fall of Houses Kasix and Valika?

GMHs hold power in society through their immense wealth earned over the course of a thousand years of hoarding rare resources and the knowledge of special crafting techniques. They are commoners who provide so much wealth to the states of Zalanthas that they are afforded the ability to read and write (albeit, only in cavilish) and occasionally rise to the rank of templarate in Allanak. In my view, they're comparable to the merchant families of Venice or megacorporations in cyberpunk settings. They live and die with their wealth.

Without their wealth, the GMHs would effectively have nothing to offer to the powers-that-be, and crumble. They just witnessed one of their biggest allies in Allanak, House Valika, be butchered to the last member, its wealth transferred to other entities. They've also witnessed coordinated outside challenges to the will of the state as in Magefall. Effectively, GMHs have just witnessed what could happen to them when the state - or an outside entity - decides that the "cons" of allowing them to continue to exist outweigh the "pros".

By extension, I think GMH roles would be focused on maintaining wealth for their house. I do not think that GMHs really care about one individual sale of a 1000-coin weapon or suit of armor, as that amounts to pocket change in terms of profits, and by extension PCs should not be involved in the humdrum day-to-day tasks for that reason alone. To give GMH PCs agency, you have to give them access to the tasks that serve their GMH in big-picture ways.

Large-scale contracts to equip militaries would be more in the purview of a GMH PC than selling Amos an "amazing" longspear or a commissioned custom craft. Similarly, GMH PCs should be engaged in the acquisition and hoarding of new resources. When multiple GMHs discover the same resource, they should have the diplomatic and military power necessary to engage in cooperation and/or conflict over those resources. I think this could be managed while keeping GMH organizations very small PC-wise, but a GMH-focused season where everyone is in a GMH family or associated with one could be particularly fun with the right setup.

To give one concrete suggestion that I don't believe has been mentioned yet, I would say that if GMHs won't encroach on each other's markets, they should still definitely compete with each other over resources and talent. There would be a lot for GMHs to do if a source of metal was uncovered in a new area of the Known World. There would also be a lot for GMHs to do if non-family talent such as crafters, hunters and soldiers were actually regarded as titans in their field, and it was acceptable for them to go from House to House through accepting more and more lucrative contracts. Make talent-poaching a routine thing rather than an affront to the House an employee is leaving, and take a big leap in what resources are plopped down in distant lands and I think you could really get things going.

[Lotion]

Let us order our GMH items through the request tool and then when they are done load a "ticket" into our inventory to be exchanged at a GMH NPC. A little virtual ticket delivery NPC gave it to us.

[digitaleak]

Large-scale contracts to equip militaries would be more in the purview of a GMH PC than selling Amos an "amazing" longspear or a commissioned custom craft. Similarly, GMH PCs should be engaged in the acquisition and hoarding of new resources. When multiple GMHs discover the same resource, they should have the diplomatic and military power necessary to engage in cooperation and/or conflict over those resources. I think this could be managed while keeping GMH organizations very small PC-wise, but a GMH-focused season where everyone is in a GMH family or associated with one could be particularly fun with the right setup.

To give one concrete suggestion that I don't believe has been mentioned yet, I would say that if GMHs won't encroach on each other's markets, they should still definitely compete with each other over resources and talent. There would be a lot for GMHs to do if a source of metal was uncovered in a new area of the Known World. There would also be a lot for GMHs to do if non-family talent such as crafters, hunters and soldiers were actually regarded as titans in their field, and it was acceptable for them to go from House to House through accepting more and more lucrative contracts. Make talent-poaching a routine thing rather than an affront to the House an employee is leaving, and take a big leap in what resources are plopped down in distant lands and I think you could really get things going.

I love this.

[Dresan]

Large-scale contracts to equip militaries would be more in the purview of a GMH PC than selling Amos an "amazing" longspear or a commissioned custom craft. Similarly, GMH PCs should be engaged in the acquisition and hoarding of new resources. When multiple GMHs discover the same resource, they should have the diplomatic and military power necessary to engage in cooperation and/or conflict over those resources. I think this could be managed while keeping GMH organizations very small PC-wise, but a GMH-focused season where everyone is in a GMH family or associated with one could be particularly fun with the right setup.

I agree with this but to a certain point.

Specifically the longer I think about great merchant houses, the more jarring their existence really is to me with in this setting. There has been more changes and upheaval with noble houses then there has been with GMHs, to the point GMHs  ups and downs are almost trivial in comparison. In the past, this plot-armor was because the clans were fun unique experiences to play in but those days and the scenario their excelled in are now gone. That and of course the only way players could get the 'good shit' is through merchant houses, which again is a demerit to players crafters, player clans and a frustrating thing to play in its own right.

Setting wise, Kadius, Nenyuk and Salarr shouldn't be allowed to exist in the way they do. I do feel they are currently somewhat nobility-lite, and quite frankly, that is what they should have become a long time ago. Wealth and resources means absolutely shit in the face of power, and these great merchant houses really have no true power(eg, templars/psionic sorcerer kings).  Thus Tuluk and Allanak should have ripped those merchant houses apart in order to just serve their own interests, and either turned them into their own noble house serving just them or married them into minor noble houses to carry on the work they do. Their wealth is only as good as the people in power say its good.

The only house I could see existing is Kurac, not as a great merchant house but a shell of their former glory. Their desert gear business ripped apart by the city states as well, only their spice business remaining, mostly because its illegal in Allanak, and mostly fancied by the rich or poor in Tuluk, isn't consider an overly valuable asset. Kurac would go back to luirs, with the small remnants of salarr, nenyuk and kadius family weren't assimilated by the city states. The would still hire crafter, who would make unique high quality gear but no longer competing with anyone unless someone is trying to muscle into their  spice trade. They would also assist with the 'smuggling' of RAW resources between the south and north, who should be having a cold war with each other not wanting to trade or share. Finally Tuluk should create its own currency, no longer accepting Allanak coins, with Luirs being the only place you could convert it back and forth (for a price) or use either currencies, making it unique and important in the world.   

Player based merchant clans would take on the role of gear dispensers, and these clans would rise and fall all the time. Again player crafting should be more valuable then it current is, and player merchant clans should have the option of crafter 'high' quality stuff(as far as populace is concerned).

Maybe not for this season but really the current state of merchant houses is way too stale and needs to probably see a major shift. At the very least, for this season we should lets get rid of them being gear vending machines to the players, and then rest will probably take care of itself over time.

[Halaster]

As has been stated in other places: It's good to remember that most clans will be fundamentally different

I think @Valkyrja meant well with this, but the phrase "fundamentally different" is a bit strong.  It can imply core mechanics or beliefs or functionality will be dramatically changed.  That just isn't the case with most clans. 

There are some big changes for some clans, for sure.  But I want to make sure people have the proper expectations.  Salarr is still a GMH selling weapons and armor, the T'Zai Byn is still a mercenary group.  Most clans are not seeing fundamental changes, just tweaks.  Only a few are seeing larger changes (like Fale).

[Dresan]

There are some big changes for some clans, for sure.  But I want to make sure people have the proper expectations.  Salarr is still a GMH selling weapons and armor, the T'Zai Byn is still a mercenary group.  Most clans are not seeing fundamental changes, just tweaks.  Only a few are seeing larger changes (like Fale).

To be fair, I have very few expectations, somehow I have a feeling most of us are in that same boat. I was happily surprised a road was constructed for example, making the GMHs clans seem a lot more pleasing to the eye.

But since there was an asked, I think you got some honest replies and ideas. 

That said, I think that some of these ideas, once expressed, have ways of popping up again and again, especially if there any real or perceived issues in the system that are in place today.