Penalty to sorcerers and subguild elementalists

Started by Dresan, March 14, 2024, 09:44:34 PM

March 14, 2024, 09:44:34 PM Last Edit: March 14, 2024, 10:48:52 PM by Dresan
Quote2.  To help alleviate powerful combat / magick combinations, sorcerers will codedly have a reduction in the max of all combat, weapon, and stealth skills they can achieve.  For combat and weapon it is a fairly significant cap reduction and is relative to the class (i.e. it's percentage based).  For example, a raider who could achieve "high" master in a combat skill will now max at "low advanced".  Stealth skills (climb, hide, sneak) have a reduction, but to a lesser extent.  More along the lines of going from "high" master to "high" advanced.  You can still branch in all cases.

This was also applied to subguild mages which I applaud.

The penalties sound impactful on paper but don't really seem to be much when you consider them in context to the game.

For example, I doubt people play raiders for their wilderness stealth skills. If you are playing a stealth class, 15 percent doesn't really hurt you completely. It might screw you over a bit more if you are an infiltrator but it basically makes you close to the old version infiltrator class. No magic empowered max backstab at least. Less parry and shield_use is a bit of a pain but very usable so is high advanced bash, disarm and kick, charge.  Oh yeah, high master to high advanced weapon skills arent levels even most regular classes reach.


This might be an unpopular idea but perhaps that percentage could go up a bit more so it feels a bit more impactful to anyone who isn't going to be twinking their combat skills to max.

Wow, you ARE a savage! xD

I think 30% is a pretty substantial hit, though it is indeed circumstantial; a 15% nerf to in-city stealth is a much bigger deal than out of city stealth since wilds npc's are much more binary in their stealth detection than when you use it in the city, where it is...largely geared towards adaptable, aware PCs.  15% off of maximum stealth in the city is a major game-change.  15% in the wilds is impactful, but less so aside from far rarer scenarios.

However, in the city, 30% off of combat skills is less impactful, since combat within the city is far rarer.  You often train within cities, where you will notice it, but for a long time, combat has been far less prevalent in city streets.  In the desert, 30% off of maximums for combat skills is far more noticeable.

In all those cases, it is not necessarily an incentive, but a chosen sacrifice; you are like a magus in Pathfinder, or a Fighter/Mage in classic DnD.  You have sacrificed some BAB for spells, and sacrificed some spells for BAB, weaker in both, but able to use both to bolster and try to make up for it in different ways.  In the city, combat is more likely to occur in alleys and private, where spellcraft is not going to get you instagibbed.  But it DOES make you take risks of discovery, and overall I think that's the main gist of what I wanted out of any change.  It isn't that they can't be strong.  It's that they can't be that strong and so easily keep it secret.

It's already faced a fair degree of pushback from generally reasonable people, so I think before pushing the envelope we should probably see what impact it has on the whole scenario.  Maybe it needs to be dialed up.  Maybe it needs to be dialed DOWN.  We kind of need to see the impact before we double down on it.
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March 17, 2024, 12:22:25 PM #2 Last Edit: March 17, 2024, 03:47:06 PM by Bogre
I'm severely against this change. I'm not sure why it's necessary to just make entire characters that much markedly worse. It makes even playing those classes decidedly less appealing when you can't escape ANY of the classes getting nerfed just to have access to some spells of situational or dubious utility. And the best thing about them was the varied opportunities and ways to build them - you could play a real character, not having to rely just on magick, and have a rich character/flavor/etc. I hate playing mages just to sit around and try to fill out the magick spell list, which is why the aspects appealed to me a lot. Now you will always be faced with them being a much worse version of whatever they were before, or worse than every character around them in 90% of situations.

 I'm not sure what the problem is that is trying to be fixed - that too many players played mages? Well - it sounds like the majority of the subclasses will now be special app gated, which does a great deal to fix that. Were they felt to be too strong when linked to the tier 1 combat classes? I think a better fix would just be to restrict them from being  raiders, enforcers or fighters and still allow them to be capable at what they choose to do. Is the problem that too many people were being PVP'd by subguild mages? Never my experience, I've been ganked way more by players with access to crim-code or incriminate or karma races like mul/etc. Again - changing the classes won't really change player behavior, if anything it will just make them that much more quick to jump to the 'F you get annihilated' spell, which means they'll just grind til they have it. Addressing problem players is a better way there. This is just telling characters that they shouldn't knife fight anymore because they should just use their bazooka.

Roughly speaking, a blanket percentage nerf like this will take probably 600ish total points of skill ceiling away from tier 1 combat class subclass mages, about 450 from tier 2, and 300 from tier 3. None of this is really decreasing the LETHALITY of any of these classes, which is the major problem. Since the offensive skills aren't as much effected (master vs advanced in weapon skills when the game barely allows you to get journeyman), you'll still have people able to blitz in PVP. But it makes the characters much worse in PVE to gith or spider beep-squads, failing a hide/sneak check and getting deleted, or players trying to gank you with shitty methods too. Which really sucks when you have spent a lot of effort on a concept, character, AND a special application. And the magick aspects are VERY situational to make up for that.

Mundane subguilds typically add something like 4-5 skills from master to advanced PLUS bonuses to non skill things PLUS a stat boost. So now, compared to mundanes (unnerfed class + subguild) and full elementalists (who get a full subguild) you have a character that has between 600-900 fewer skill points available, 1 less stat point, a situational and sometimes typically terrible spell list (sarcasm: those Krathi Agony and Nilaz Anathema aspects were really dominant and game-breaking out there) which is gated behind sometimes MAX KARMA and A SPECIAL APPLICATION. You still have all of the 'you get to be kill/gem on sight' downsides. Oh and if you aren't the type of player who skillmaxed everything before and burned through charactess, you have no idea of what's on the spell list and if your entire concept will fall flat on the face or not. Like why are the aspect subguilds subject to the same  as SORCERERS?

In summary - I think this does very little to hamper feels-bad PK and PVP, increases the feels-bad deaths to NPCs or gank-PVP for those playing mages, increases the pressure to spam-cast to make up for the deficiencies, decreases the potential enjoyment of a character and the world significantly, decreasing interest in exploring character concepts and builds. In short, it adds very little for what it takes away from players and characters.
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I haven't seen anywhere that it was posited that was was specifically for PvP balancing, which is what you seem to be weighting most of that on.  If the specific instance was too powerful for PvE scaling, for example, that would make everything you just typed an affirmation of the change rather than a detriment.

The main complaints that I saw fielded against mages were:
1) They are too powerful (I believe this is where your pvp perspective came from).
2) There are too many of them.
3) Subguild mages are so good that there's very little reason to choose other subguilds.

I believe 1 and 2 are just different phrasing for 3.  So the change was based on creating a sacrifice for choosing that subguild.  There are a variety of impacts that could have, but they are not guaranteed.  However, it does seem to be an attempt at creating some of them:

1) Subguild mages are still powerful, but will have increased reliance on their magick.  This makes it a bit more of a challenge to keep it hidden since more frequent use is likely.
2) Subguild mages are still powerful, but not as powerful as solo characters as they were.  This makes it more sensible to try and work with groups, teams, or find social connections to assist, which again increases chance of discovery.  In the case it's not a secret, then it makes it more likely they have to withstand the social drawbacks of playing a mage.
3) Subguild mages are still powerful but are more vulnerable to a death that a mundane would not suffer, but less vulnerable to other deaths that a mundane would suffer. 

All three of these seem to be weighted towards what I believe Halaster said in discord was the specific goal, which was to cut down on their number as 'the standard character' and make them more specially suited.  They are done with consideration and a role in mind, rather than just being a better mundane.

It remains to be seen what the actual impact of this will be, but I think your current train of thought seems to be weighting the wrong things.  I don't believe this was a change based around making them less powerful in PvP, I believe that it was to make them less of a trump card over their mundane counterparts.

As I said in discord, pretty much every mainstay RPG where there is class and skill selection creates some drawback for hybridizing via weapon and armor restrictions, decreases in reliability, lower skill cap in each of their hybridized areas, or something of that nature.  It's very unusual, from a game design perspective, for a hybrid to be safer than the pure classes they mix while fully performing the same roles.
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March 17, 2024, 02:51:50 PM #4 Last Edit: March 17, 2024, 03:13:41 PM by Roon
-30% to combat skills is a gigantic hit. While I'm glad something is being done about the overpowered hybrids, this nerf feels like an overcorrection. It basically puts heavy combat classes at the level of the mixed classes (miscreant, stalker, laborer). It takes you from the highest possible peak of combat skill, to the bottom of advanced. You basically lose two full levels of skill. A -15% to combat skills would have sufficed. That's approximately one tier on the class scale.

The light combat classes (infiltrator, scout, soldier) will be comically bad. Their combat skills will be less than the mixed classes, and their stealth skills will be at or below subclass level. There won't be any point playing them at all. You would be far better off going full elementalist with a mundane subclass.

The mixed classes will be entirely incapable of combat, capping their skills so low that there's no reason to even attempt to make use of them. Meanwhile, their stealth skills will also be below that of mundane infiltrators and scouts. Again, hard to see much reason to go for this. You could have got comparable stealth skills with a subclass, and then you get to be a full-fledged mage instead of limiting yourself to one of the subclass magic categories.

For the most part, I see very little reason to play the elementalist subclasses now. If this change had come before full elementalists returned and mundane subclasses were buffed, it might have been fair to nerf hybrids this hard. But when you have the option to just go full mage with a mundane subclass that gets one or two masters and a slew of advanced skills, that's just going to be a much better character.

Maybe if it was harder to detect the magic subclasses with that one method that you can't really protect yourself against, that could be an argument for going hybrid even with their totally obliterated skillsets. It would make sense as well that people who can better hide their nature are more likely to have lived a life that would give them a skillset that could pass for any regular person, while those who can be detected with THAT ONE METHOD can't easily live amongst ordinary folk.

I'm not sold on a 30% reduction in combat skills for a main guild, if you choose a magick subguild. I think it's a bit much. But I am sure that a reduction is necessary, and hope that once things get moving in-game, the staff will adjust as needed. We'll see.

Meanwhile, that 30% reduction won't really have an impact at all on merchant-heavy guilds.
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Originally the mage subclasses were designed for warrior and ranger guilds, not the classes we have today.

The more I have read people's thoughts in this thread the more i think its not enough. I am not really sold that this is a huge impact to anyone but the few who want to play infiltrators and go the magickal backstab route. But to Armaddicts point, i am willing to wait and see.

March 18, 2024, 10:54:34 AM #7 Last Edit: March 18, 2024, 10:58:06 AM by Roon
Quote from: Dresan on March 18, 2024, 09:33:57 AMThe more I have read people's thoughts in this thread the more i think its not enough.

Not enough? What, should the penalties be so big that your skills cap at apprentice and low journeyman? Calling such an incredibly heavy-handed nerf "not enough" comes off as weirdly vindictive, like what you really want is for the aspect subclasses to be removed entirely.

QuoteI am not really sold that this is a huge impact to anyone but the few who want to play infiltrators and go the magickal backstab route.

The impact is going to be enormous. You know the mixed classes, which are only just barely capable of meaningful combat in their mundane state? That is now the limit for any aspect character, even if you pick a heavy combat class. As is subclass-level stealth for the would-be master stealth classes, who also become so inept at combat that they don't even really count as combat characters.

If that's the desired outcome, fair enough--but that is the outcome. Can't just handwave it away and arbitrarily decide that it only affects "magical backstabbers." Can't just choose to believe that it won't have the effects that we know it'll have. It's simple math.

I'm pretty sure these characters will suck. Compared to a full elementalist with a synergistic subclass, a hybrid character gives up like two thirds of their element's spells in exchange for... a handful of skills at journeyman and low advanced? The mundane subclasses are so robust these days. Look at something like swordsman. That's pretty much on par with a fighter at -30% skills, getting all the skills that really matter, and then you get to be a full elementalist on top. Hell, the swordsman very likely has higher caps in its skills than a fighter does with these aspect penalties.

A -15% to combat skills would have been more reasonable. That's still a hell of a lot of power to give up for what is typically no more than 3-4 actually useful spells and a bunch of largely useless filler.

As it stands, I would go so far as to say that the touched subclasses are now better than the aspects. They typically get at least a couple of highly useful spells, and even some mundane skills at subclass level. I would take that and an unnerfed class over an aspect with these staggering penalties.

Calling these penalties not enough seems silly. I wonder what you had in mind. -50%?

QuoteCalling these penalties not enough seems silly. I wonder what you had in mind. -50%?

For me personally, I'm not really sure what to expect here.  I don't expect the classes to be gimped, I expect that they will be more versatile than full mages with subclasses but with comparable combat skills IF the full guild mage chooses a weapon-skill subclass.  That is to say that they get a full mundane skillset, with partial spell subset, rather than a full spell skillset with partial mundane skillset.

I do think this might be a little on the heavy side, but I'm really, truly unsure what to really expect here until we get feedback, and not just 'this sucks' feedback, but in-depth feedback.  Someone trying to play it the way they functioned before and saying it doesn't work doesn't mean this change isn't working, since the idea is that they will work differently.  I will say, however, that it is easier to go heavy on the first iteration, then tone it down, rather than start light and increase it, because otherwise we get 2-4 bad interactions (nerfs) vs 1 bad interaction (big nerf) and 1-3 good interactions (nerfing the nerf).

Personally, for my stated goals of subguild mages, I would have tied in spellcasting with the watch skill; make spellcasting EXTREMELY noticeable, so that without watching a direction, you have an extremely high chance of 'You notice: ' messages for spellcasting and spellcasting effects.  Magick is always going to be strong, and should always be strong, but to compensate, I just want them to face additional dangers that mundanes do not need to, and the first step to that is to make it very difficult to avoid the social parts of being a mage.

That and make the wilderness hard so you can't just avoid all the places that will give you bad effects.
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Quote from: Roon on March 18, 2024, 10:54:34 AMI'm pretty sure these characters will suck. Compared to a full elementalist with a synergistic subclass, a hybrid character gives up like two thirds of their element's spells in exchange for... a handful of skills at journeyman and low advanced?

Don't forget the gain rate of skills.  Full guild elementalists have the slowest (worst) gain rate of combat skills than anyone.  Worse than heavy mercantile.  And gain rate is determined by your class.  Your full guild / swordsman may have the potential to get to pretty high levels of slashing, but that's going to be incredibly slow and painful.
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March 18, 2024, 02:45:49 PM #10 Last Edit: March 18, 2024, 07:46:46 PM by Roon
Quote from: Halaster on March 18, 2024, 01:08:25 PM
Quote from: Roon on March 18, 2024, 10:54:34 AMI'm pretty sure these characters will suck. Compared to a full elementalist with a synergistic subclass, a hybrid character gives up like two thirds of their element's spells in exchange for... a handful of skills at journeyman and low advanced?

Don't forget the gain rate of skills.  Full guild elementalists have the slowest (worst) gain rate of combat skills than anyone.  Worse than heavy mercantile.  And gain rate is determined by your class.  Your full guild / swordsman may have the potential to get to pretty high levels of slashing, but that's going to be incredibly slow and painful.

Sure, but in my experience, that's only really an issue for defense. Offense and weapon skills will go up fine until you stop missing, even with classes that have shit gain rates, and will probably plateau well before the cap regardless. If you do have the rare luxury of sparring against someone who you could max out on, it's also pretty easy when you don't even need to go all the way to master. Defense is the only real concern, and I'd call that a small tradeoff for having access to all of your element's spells instead of just whatever aspect you'd pick.

Many combat skills don't use gain rate at all, and offense/weapons are bottlenecked by the inability to miss attacks long before gain rate becomes a concern. When you look at how handicapped the combat classes will be with the aspect penalty, a higher gain rate isn't much compensation. If anything, the low starting offense of elementalist classes is a greater benefit to raising weapon skills.

Having somewhat higher defense barely helps when your raider has the parry skill of a miscreant, and worse still if you chose a light combat class. I will take access to all of an element's spells over that any day. I think -30% to combat skills is far too steep a cost.

The problem with gain rates is that everyone sort of converges. High gain rates might get you to the point of convergence faster, but then you're the one who gets nothing out of your training. Since having less offense/defense also increases your chance to gain, there's a built-in "catch-up mechanic" that makes it so even the classes with low gain rates aren't left in the dust. The less you have, the faster you gain, and the classes with low gain rates just don't appear to be hindered significantly. They might be a little bit behind, but honestly, not very much. It's a natural product of the "have less = gain more" design philosophy.

Defense is the only one that even bears thinking about because you can always force failures, but that ends up being a pretty small portion of your character's power if you also have a full array of any given elementalist's spells to add to your arsenal. Defense is great for full mundanes who rely wholly on raw combat prowess for every facet of their survival. For a full-blown mage with every spell available to their element... meh.

And when it comes right down to the nitty-gritty of it, at least two of the elementalist classes have spells that let them take so many hits that it easily makes up for a lower gain rate on defense. While their associated aspect subclasses can also get those spells, that tends to lock you into a "pure protection" grouping of spells, whereas a full elementalist gets everything, including the omegapwn bomb spells.

As far as mundane combat skills go, parry is by far the most important. Losing 30% of your cap is a gargantuan blow to your lifelong potential. It turns a raider into a stalker, by and large. You lose two entire tiers on the class spectrum. Having a bit more in the hidden defense skill doesn't come even slightly close to compensating for this when it's held up against the alternative that was available to you: every spell for your element. That's a lot to give up for... higher gain rates, and mostly just in defense, because you will reach the point of "nothing can dodge me anymore" regardless of class and that invalidates the value of better gain rates in offense and weapon skills. It's the age-old problem of bottlenecking everything behind hard failures.

If we imagined that mages could easily join the clans that enjoy a daily sparring schedule, maybe there would be merit to the idea of better gain rates. This is just not the case. Mages of any type are almost always forced to get their combat training from fighting NPCs, and unless you go to some heinous lengths with your skillgrinding, there is a hard limit on how good you can get. That limit occurs before your gain rates are relevant. If it takes a few more days of play for a full elementalist, that's a very small price to pay.

Having actually played a dangerous sorcerer (pre change to sorcerers), these feel like some very strange decisions that put them back to into the unplayable territory they had to endure from 2015-2019.

March 18, 2024, 07:51:02 PM #12 Last Edit: March 18, 2024, 07:54:02 PM by Roon
If the changes are to stand, I think they become a lot more reasonable if the -30% to combat skills does not apply to parry. Of all the combat skills, this is the the tier-defining one. I think it's fair enough to limit the weapon skills, backstab, archery and so on for characters with the aspect subclasses, but tanking their parry skill by this much just makes them suck. Make an exemption for that one.

Quote from: Roon on March 18, 2024, 07:51:02 PMIf the changes are to stand, I think they become a lot more reasonable if the -30% to combat skills does not apply to parry. Of all the combat skills, this is the the tier-defining one. I think it's fair enough to limit the weapon skills, backstab, archery and so on for characters with the aspect subclasses, but tanking their parry skill by this much just makes them suck. Make an exemption for that one.

With the changes:

If you pick Raider + Elkros Subclass, you'll get Parry at Master.  With a -30% reduction, it will become Low Advanced.

If you pick Miscreant + Elkros Subclass, you'll get Parry at Advanced.  With a -30% reduction, it will become Low Journeyman.

If you pick Elkros Elementalist + Swordsman, you'll get Parry at Advanced.  With a -30% reduction, it will become Low Journeyman.

If you pick Enforcer + Ruk Subclass, you'll get a reduction on the following skills:

SkillCurrent ProficiencyNew Proficiency
Crossbow UseMasterLow Advanced
Blowgun UseMasterLow Advanced
ThrowMasterLow Advanced
SapMasterLow Advanced
BackstabMasterLow Advanced
ThreatenMasterLow Advanced
GuardingMasterLow Advanced
SubdueAdvancedLow Journeyman
RescueMasterLow Advanced
ParryMasterLow Advanced
BashMasterLow Advanced
DisarmMasterLow Advanced
KickMasterLow Advanced
FleeMasterLow Advanced
Blind FightingMasterLow Advanced
Shield UseMasterLow Advanced
Dual WieldMasterLow Advanced
Two HandedMasterLow Advanced
Slashing WeaponsMasterLow Advanced
Piercing WeaponsMasterLow Advanced
Bludgeoning WeaponsMasterLow Advanced
Chopping WeaponsMasterLow Advanced
SneakAdvancedLow Advanced/High Journeyman
HideAdvancedLow Advanced/High Journeyman


I wrote this out so we can get some perspective of what it will look like going forward.  -30% basically moves you down one proficiency tier, and perhaps if you were at the low end of that proficiency tier, it would move you to the top of a second proficiency tier.


The big question I have is:

Is "Steal" or "Climb" considered Stealth skills?
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Quote from: Morgenes on April 01, 2011, 10:33:11 PM
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March 18, 2024, 09:59:17 PM #14 Last Edit: March 19, 2024, 05:08:56 AM by CirclelessBard Reason: R1 break.
Quote from: mansa on March 18, 2024, 09:40:41 PMIf you pick Elkros Elementalist + Swordsman, you'll get Parry at Advanced.  With a -30% reduction, it will become Low Journeyman.

Unless I've grossly misunderstood something: no it won't. The -30% penalty is exclusive to characters who pick a mundane class and an elementalist aspect subclass (what I call a 'hybrid') which doesn't cover an actual full-fledged elementalist with an ordinary subclass. The latter is not penalized.

QuoteI wrote this out so we can get some perspective of what it will look like going forward.  -30% basically moves you down one proficiency tier, and perhaps if you were at the low end of that proficiency tier, it would move you to the top of a second proficiency tier.

This is just mathematically false. -30% moves you down two tiers. Plainly put, a -30% brings you from the highest fringes of mastery to the bottom of advanced. That's a two-tier reduction in power. A heavy combat class goes from the top of master to the bottom of advanced. It brings a fighter to the level of a laborer.

QuoteThe big question I have is:

Is "Steal" or "Climb" considered Stealth skills?

Climb is. Steal is not. Steal's a manipulation skill.

March 18, 2024, 10:31:58 PM #15 Last Edit: March 19, 2024, 05:09:15 AM by CirclelessBard Reason: Quote containing R1 break



Ahh, I had to reread the original post, as I make many mistakes:
QuoteMarch 11, 2024 (Monday)

Halaster
- tweaks to camping, but mostly on hold while waiting on player feedback
- subguild elementalists now have the same max skill penalty as sorcerers.  Which is a 30% reduction in max combat/weapon skills, and a %15 reduction in max stealth skills.  This does not affect starting skills or gain rates, just max. It affects all skills regardless of whether they're guild, subguild, or racial.  It also affects the 'touched' magickal subguilds.  None of this applies to full guild elems.

I have glanced over the last sentence in that paragraph without reading it, which confirms that full guild elementalists don't get any combat reductions.


Skill Brackets
I was considering this:

Skill Brackets are separated by equal portions of 20%, so the reduction is 1 and a half tiers.  The tricky bit being whether you sit on the high end or the low end of the tier.
-> If the skills are out of 100 cookies, that means you could be "master" at 81 cookies, or you could be master at 100 cookies, and a reduction of 30% would mean a reduction of 30 cookies.

So, if you were at 81 -> 51 cookies -> (journeyman)
If you were at 99 -> 69 cookies -> (advanced)
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Quote from: Morgenes on April 01, 2011, 10:33:11 PM
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March 18, 2024, 11:12:58 PM #16 Last Edit: March 18, 2024, 11:20:21 PM by Roon
That would only be accurate if all skills go from 1 to 100.

I'm afraid this just isn't how it works. I'm not allowed to elaborate.

There are many more things wrong with your figures, but we have to leave it at that because we can't talk in real numbers. Suffice to say that yours are wholly imaginary and do not match up with reality.

No....mages and sorcs should be overpowered. Seriously. Nothing is equal, in RL and most definitely a fantasy setting
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Quote from: Roon on March 18, 2024, 07:51:02 PMIf the changes are to stand, I think they become a lot more reasonable if the -30% to combat skills does not apply to parry. Of all the combat skills, this is the the tier-defining one.

That was my thought as well.

However I think you may be overestimating the importance of parry compared to skill-gain rate. About that, you said "that's only really an issue for defense". But IMO defense is the critical combat factor in Arm. Inadequate offense means you get to try again; inadequate defense means you get to make a new character.

High defense means your PC can wander almost anywhere in the world and survive. Parrying is great, but it's not even a factor until your PC is fighting someone/something at close to combat parity.

tl;dr: Always be dodgin'.
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I always ascribe to "Defense is more important than offense". Until crits happen and those are awful.

As a casual bystander? I would suggest making the reduction 20% instead of 30%. The higher reduction is going to put people into high Journeyman levels of skill and the way Arm skills seem to work (since we're on a blacklist if we even begin to understand it) ... Jman levels of skill are unreliable at best and frankly seem to fail/critfail more often than apprentice skills.
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March 21, 2024, 05:52:33 PM #21 Last Edit: March 21, 2024, 05:57:54 PM by Dresan
Quote from: Krath on March 18, 2024, 11:52:36 PMNo....mages and sorcs should be overpowered.

Not quite the line I've been waiting for but its close enough.

1. Sorcerers/mages should be magically powerful. Not have equal access to max-level martial/stealth skills.
2. Sorcerers and mages are indeed very powerful...in the setting. That doesn't mean our characters have to be at those levels of powers.


Just like we aren't allowed to play sorcerer-kings, the mages and sorcerers we play don't have to be the most powerful the setting can offer. It was really either going to be nerf the mundane skills or nerf the magick skills of players who went the magickal subclass route. Either way, there has been massive power creep over the last few years and at some point it needs to be curtailed.

I do still believe the nerf should probably be closer to 50% of mundane skills because really? Your magicker is gimped without master parry?!? :o 

The alternative is to go back to full mage guilds and remove mage sub guilds all together . While magickally powerful there was a clear RP/utility sacrifice to playing full-guild magickers that people are glossing over with the ability to play hybrids. After all, Raiders class was already the wet dream of the old warrior guild, its always been nuts they can add magick on top of everything else they can do...especially with additional changes over the years that now lets them do so without the any of the wielding/glowing for hours inconveniences of old. 

Again, willing to wait and see how this turns out but something had to be done. The  current state is OP and has been OP for a long time, and that's OP in quite a ridiculous way. At this point, you might as well be arguing for staff to give magickers access to an admin-level slay command so that magickers feel sufficiently powerful.


The current state is that someone in power believed that they should make magick a sub-set of your skills and let mundane skills (primary classes) rule. The theory was sound, but the game suffered due to some mundane skills being very powerful when combined with certain magick spells.

I agree with Krath here, that magick and sorcerors should be powerful. They should be scary. They should be unfair. In this setting, magick is scary and full of terror. Even a simple one-path sorceror is fucking terrifying.

Lowering their skills so that they are "less effective" only serves to make them less scary. Like when True Sorcs became Path Sorcs. And when mages got 1/3 of their spells. They became less scary because you knew they didn't have both fireball and lava storm (or whatever).



Long story short - The staff are balancing the game using code. This makes me feel that they will not be able or willing to monitor their karma-access roles to ensure the 'super scary' roles are being scary rather than murder machines. As an RPI, they are relegating control to the code because We The Players are untrustworthy scavs only out for ourselves.

Nothing in this thread has convinced me otherwise. I hope I am wrong.

Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on May 20, 2013, 11:16:52 PM
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

I'm a fan of the original full guild mages, and I'm not a fan of the subguild mages.  However, I'm also a fan of filling out options for full guild mage's subguild options, OR giving them a couple of low-cap utility mundane skills right out of the box.

For example - full guilds could come with: listen, forage, desert sense, and skinning, all up to a maximum of high apprentice, even if their subguild doesn't come with any of those.  Full guilds could also come with at least one weapon type, at novice, which could improve up to low apprentice.

And then for subguilds, any option they choose - IF combat/weapon skill normally can master, for elementalists - it won't master. The best they'll get is jman.

That's how I'd do it, if there was a return to full guild elementalists, and we did away with magick subclasses entirely (which would be my preference).
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

Quote from: Riev on March 21, 2024, 06:57:44 PMI agree with Krath here, that magick and sorcerors should be powerful. They should be scary. They should be unfair. In this setting, magick is scary and full of terror. Even a simple one-path sorceror is fucking terrifying.


The reality is that:

A. Nobody treats magick as frightening or scary. Even when it is.
B. Players will just complain that they can't kill them easily enough.

Quote from: Master Color on March 22, 2024, 11:46:03 PM
Quote from: Riev on March 21, 2024, 06:57:44 PMI agree with Krath here, that magick and sorcerors should be powerful. They should be scary. They should be unfair. In this setting, magick is scary and full of terror. Even a simple one-path sorceror is fucking terrifying.


The reality is that:

A. Nobody treats magick as frightening or scary. Even when it is.
B. Players will just complain that they can't kill them easily enough.


Heck. Why should they if there is no punishment or reward for doing so?

The player of the magicker will kill you because they have a fireball and you dont.
The player of the mundane will kill the magicker because they can flaunt that they beat an "OP witch".
Keeping someone alive is "a guarantee that they will kill you later" and for DECADES now we have cared about staying alive, and not the story of our deaths.

So yeah. Why treat it as scary? Its just inconvenient and if I bash them first I "win" soooooo...
Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on May 20, 2013, 11:16:52 PM
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

March 24, 2024, 09:52:08 AM #26 Last Edit: March 24, 2024, 09:59:39 AM by Dresan
Generally speaking i have no issue with powerful mage/sorcerer characters but that is not what people are asking for. What people want to play is magic warriors with stealth, ride and wilderness skills with zero down side or limitations.

Its not that a mages dont have powerful abilities to keep them safe. Its just that master parry is more convinient and does not have any of the downsides that come with magick upkeep or glowing like christmas trees in the night, right? I also think this is what made full mage classes more balanced. They actually had to rely on magic to achieve anything, instead of hust buffing already strong mudane skills.

I do believe the next step will be further nerfing of mage subguilds followed by the eventual removal the of subguild mages with the exception of touched classes. This of course comes with the reintroduction of full mage classes again. But if full-mage classes need more powerful spells than they aready have that do stuff like prevent bash or block weapon damage through impressive visible displays of magick prowless i would be very supportive.  8)

For me, it's the idea that a full-guild mage is relegated to either
1) being gemmed
2) being a secret ungemmed city mage with a city-centric subguild that automatically comes with the listen skill
3) picking a wilderness-centric subguild that automatically comes with direction sense.

Listen for secret city-based is important, if you want a good shot at remaining a secret mage based in the city.
Direction sense for any mage who is based outside in the wilderness is a no-brainer. With very few exceptions, most mages can't really function without it, outside cities.

So rather than further limit the subguild options, I say just give all full-guild elemental mages a low-cap of those skills right out of chargen. They can still select subguild with higher caps of those skills if they want. But they would have a greater variety of options for subguilds if they don't mind not "getting good" at those particular skills.
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

Quote from: Lizzie on March 24, 2024, 02:10:55 PMFor me, it's the idea that a full-guild mage is relegated to either
1) being gemmed
2) being a secret ungemmed city mage with a city-centric subguild that automatically comes with the listen skill
3) picking a wilderness-centric subguild that automatically comes with direction sense.

Listen for secret city-based is important, if you want a good shot at remaining a secret mage based in the city.
Direction sense for any mage who is based outside in the wilderness is a no-brainer. With very few exceptions, most mages can't really function without it, outside cities.

So rather than further limit the subguild options, I say just give all full-guild elemental mages a low-cap of those skills right out of chargen. They can still select subguild with higher caps of those skills if they want. But they would have a greater variety of options for subguilds if they don't mind not "getting good" at those particular skills.

So first off.

I love the idea to add a few small utility skills to fit the classes.

Unfortunately, it's unlikely to happen as far as I know.

That said, from what I read about the Karma changes, and from the discussions I observed at the time. The subguilds were going to be gradually phased out, and the gemmed restrictions on full guilds with them.

I hate to agree with lizzie (haayyy gurl) but I did prefer the main-guild magickers. I had always felt that your "main class" was something you were born to do, while your subclass was to fill out holes and/or to be the things you worked at. For an old quote:

Your main class is Mario
Your Subclass is Joe the Plumber

Both allow you to be able to do the job of a plumber, but in Mario's case? He was born to do it. He is naturally better at it, and will succeed more often. Joe the plumber can make a business out of plumbing but his real talents may lie elsewhere.

Magickers are born with magick in their blood. It is where all their potential lies. You weren't born to be a Plumber, but also happen to be a witch... you were born a with. I know it seems unfair, but in a world where magick is powerful and scary, it always made sense.



To whit: I don't want to play a super powerful sorceror with master parry and stealth skills. I want to play a sorceror with enough survivability and utility to be scary and enact plots. Unfortunately, many of our players want to play "I can kill you without risk".

A semi-recent sorceror went out of their way to NOT kill people, and yet some players hated how powerful they were because they "could not win". A player who spent months building a reputation, killing very few, in a very hard and iso role was chastised and bemoaned because some people couldn't "win". I don't think code will fix that, only a change in attitude.
Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on May 20, 2013, 11:16:52 PM
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

I actually agree with Riev more often than I disagree (yass gurrl), I just don't advertise it because Riev needs to protect his rep or some such nonsense.

But yes, about the guild vs. subguild situation. This is true in every game I've played, all of which had main and sub guilds/classes/skillsets (whatever you want to call them).  The main was "what your character is designed for, primarily" while the sub was "hobbies, interests, side-talents" to give your main more depth and personality.

That's the whole point of -having- a main and a sub. If not, then just do away with mains entirely, and let people pick one sub from each category: combat, non-combat, and utility.

Or, ditch classes/subs altogether and shift completely into a template-based points system.

Magick has never been intended to be a side-gig. Either you're a mage, or you're not a mage.
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

Quote from: Riev on March 23, 2024, 04:26:48 PM
Quote from: Master Color on March 22, 2024, 11:46:03 PM
Quote from: Riev on March 21, 2024, 06:57:44 PMI agree with Krath here, that magick and sorcerors should be powerful. They should be scary. They should be unfair. In this setting, magick is scary and full of terror. Even a simple one-path sorceror is fucking terrifying.


The reality is that:

A. Nobody treats magick as frightening or scary. Even when it is.
B. Players will just complain that they can't kill them easily enough.


Heck. Why should they if there is no punishment or reward for doing so?

The player of the magicker will kill you because they have a fireball and you dont.
The player of the mundane will kill the magicker because they can flaunt that they beat an "OP witch".
Keeping someone alive is "a guarantee that they will kill you later" and for DECADES now we have cared about staying alive, and not the story of our deaths.

So yeah. Why treat it as scary? Its just inconvenient and if I bash them first I "win" soooooo...

Played a Whiran Travel once unmanifested at the time, was the hunting type so I was out riding a beetle around Nak.  Had all my spells aliased to quick fire, just out of habit.. Guess I was looking one way, riding another.. (not paying attention ooc) Rode my ride straight over the edge into the giant fissure north of town there.. Even after failing my climb checks upon decent downward.. the VERY long decent downward.. I had time to consider casting and saving myself, and chose not to.   Because you're right, the way you die is just as important as the way you live.   Kudos fellow sandboxer
The glowing Nessalin Nebula flickers eternally overhead.
This Angers The Shade of Nessalin.

Quote from: perfecto on March 26, 2024, 09:36:15 AM
Quote from: Riev on March 23, 2024, 04:26:48 PM
Quote from: Master Color on March 22, 2024, 11:46:03 PM
Quote from: Riev on March 21, 2024, 06:57:44 PMI agree with Krath here, that magick and sorcerors should be powerful. They should be scary. They should be unfair. In this setting, magick is scary and full of terror. Even a simple one-path sorceror is fucking terrifying.


The reality is that:

A. Nobody treats magick as frightening or scary. Even when it is.
B. Players will just complain that they can't kill them easily enough.


Heck. Why should they if there is no punishment or reward for doing so?

The player of the magicker will kill you because they have a fireball and you dont.
The player of the mundane will kill the magicker because they can flaunt that they beat an "OP witch".
Keeping someone alive is "a guarantee that they will kill you later" and for DECADES now we have cared about staying alive, and not the story of our deaths.

So yeah. Why treat it as scary? Its just inconvenient and if I bash them first I "win" soooooo...

Played a Whiran Travel once unmanifested at the time, was the hunting type so I was out riding a beetle around Nak.  Had all my spells aliased to quick fire, just out of habit.. Guess I was looking one way, riding another.. (not paying attention ooc) Rode my ride straight over the edge into the giant fissure north of town there.. Even after failing my climb checks upon decent downward.. the VERY long decent downward.. I had time to consider casting and saving myself, and chose not to.   Because you're right, the way you die is just as important as the way you live.   Kudos fellow sandboxer

Imagine the story arc for your character if that event was the catalyst for manifesting. Consider that you might've failed the cast and died anyway. But what a great way to manifest! Abject fear and imminent death, and the "sound of survival" pops into your head as the air rushes past you on your way down.
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

March 26, 2024, 08:25:08 PM #33 Last Edit: March 26, 2024, 08:54:32 PM by Windstorm
I have fairly extreme mixed feelings on this subject and I've been reluctant to share them.

I guess my problem with combat and fighting in Armageddon is twofold:

1. Coded "fighting power" in Armageddon often comes by way of somewhat ridiculous pathways. Either finding questionable ways to get skill failures, or finding high-powered characters to spar with endlessly. PCs who do this can have outsized world impact not even via roleplay but just by sparring a lot; Armageddon is unique in this way, and it is not a good way. It's far more overdue for a change than magickers were.

2. Combat is simply too instantaneous and the nature of it being that way lends itself toward PCs who have gamed their way to higher combat power via oft-unrealistic time investment playing it understandably safe - IE, slaughtering all competition pretty ruthlessly - because they dumped a lot of time into getting there.

I honestly appreciated subguild magickers in that they basically threw the sparring gods closer back toward the range of mortality because no matter how many hours you've dumped into sparring, you could still get fireballed by somebody capable of parrying an attack. With subguild magickers being basically dumped out of meaningful combat capability, I feel a finger's been put back on the scales that empower PCs who go out of their way to spar a lot, and I don't like it.

If we must go ahead with this, I have to beg that we also make sparring less a pathway to godliness. Put a (low) upper limit on how much it increases skills.

Quote from: Windstorm on March 26, 2024, 08:25:08 PMno matter how many hours you've dumped into sparring, you could still get fireballed by somebody capable of parrying an attack. With subguild magickers being basically dumped out of meaningful combat capability, I feel a finger's been put back on the scales that empower PCs who go out of their way to spar a lot, and I don't like it.

As a note, many of the sub-classes offer things like Parry so you can still have a full-guild Krathi with a decent level of parry for defense.

Back in 'the day' before these changes, ONLY main guilds offered parry. So there is still that. However, you are correct, the constant in-combat spam needed to 'git gud' can allow people with no Thematic/In Character earned power to suddenly force things to shift simply because "they spent a long time sparring Gortoks"
Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on May 20, 2013, 11:16:52 PM
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

I think allowing gemmed into the Byn and the reduction of skillcap for parry+shield for non touched gick subguilds will allow weird metagame strategies around sparring. A raider with a rukkian subguild who is allowed to use various defensive magic while in the sparring ring could raise their def to the cap a lot more easily than anyone else and become a fantastic sparring partner. Every successful parry or block is a missed opportunity to raise your def and with a reduced cap to parry and block your sparring will suddenly have the potential to look very different.

And if that Byn Sergeant allows that to happen, I will leave their friends, familiy, and children splayed out in their public meeting room.

But you're not wrong, for the same reason that getting a REALLY good defensive elf (or half-elf, amirite?) turns into a sparring dummy.

Defense is king. There can be no offense without defense.
Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on May 20, 2013, 11:16:52 PM
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Quote from: Riev on March 27, 2024, 03:22:05 PMAnd if that Byn Sergeant allows that to happen, I will leave their friends, familiy, and children splayed out in their public meeting room.

But you're not wrong, for the same reason that getting a REALLY good defensive elf (or half-elf, amirite?) turns into a sparring dummy.

Defense is king. There can be no offense without defense.
Having a strong warband seems like a good incentive to allow it to happen. If the labor of the gemmed is a useful tool this would be an incredible way to harness that kind of utility.

Agreed, but this is similar to 'hiring elves' which was never AGAINST THE RULES it just never seemed to happen (unless I was a Sergeant and @Armaddict was around).

I think penalizing subguild magickers will slow down the issues you're seeing, though I do think 30% is a heavy penalty.
Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on May 20, 2013, 11:16:52 PM
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

April 04, 2024, 02:21:32 PM #39 Last Edit: April 05, 2024, 03:32:25 PM by Dresan
Quote from: Riev on March 27, 2024, 04:31:27 PMthough I do think 30% is a heavy penalty.

I am going to use this as an example of the general sentiment of some people. However, after reflecting of the upcoming changes within the magefall setting, i have no idea who this sentiment is trying to fool.

Its as if:
  • advanced weapons was commonly achieved by everyone
  • or if advanced parry was pure shit, even in combination with high defense skill and insane level of magick buffs
  • or magick defenses werent powerful and didnt make many mundane attacks moot
  • or if certain magickal attack spells didnt rival backstab damage and could be done while wielding weapons
  • or that those weapons couldn't now be powerful magick tools


The only thing that balanced all this out in the past was mages were isolated roles with fewer social opportunities. Now with the upcoming setting, mages seem potentially have access to more opportunities then my mundane city elf. While I do think this will be a fun and nessesary experiment to better intergrate the increasing number of mage players in the game, I can also see it very quicky spiralling out of control and making this the second coming of CAM. This could turn mundane characters or those that refuse magickal tools and assistance into second tier roles.


Magic cannot become common and still be mysterious, additionally as has been said before just because magick is powerful in the setting, does not mean you get play sorcerer-kings. At this point 30 percent penalty is probably bare minimun and something more severe like outright removal or strict limitation of magick subguilds (allowing only full magick guilds) is what will be required to keep mundane roles the majority.

I'd rather not nerf mages and let the spec app system do it's thing, probably with a x mages per y mundane sorta criteria.
Wynning since October 25, 2008.

Quote from: Ami on November 23, 2010, 03:40:39 PM
>craft newbie into good player

You accidentally snap newbie into useless pieces.


Discord:The7DeadlyVenomz#3870

Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on April 04, 2024, 10:03:58 PMI'd rather not nerf mages and let the spec app system do it's thing, probably with a x mages per y mundane sorta criteria.

I'd be okay with "soft caps" on mages rather than following a specific rigid formula. Like, the game could accommodate up to 4 mage characters MINIMUM total, no matter how many people are playing at any given moment. And if there are a lot more players making characters next month, you could add a 5th mage opportunity. Out of any given 5 mages playing in the same month, at least 2 of them will be dead or stored next month anyway. It's good to have backups already in game :)
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

Quote from: Lizzie on April 04, 2024, 10:33:45 PM
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on April 04, 2024, 10:03:58 PMI'd rather not nerf mages and let the spec app system do it's thing, probably with a x mages per y mundane sorta criteria.

I'd be okay with "soft caps" on mages rather than following a specific rigid formula. Like, the game could accommodate up to 4 mage characters MINIMUM total, no matter how many people are playing at any given moment. And if there are a lot more players making characters next month, you could add a 5th mage opportunity. Out of any given 5 mages playing in the same month, at least 2 of them will be dead or stored next month anyway. It's good to have backups already in game :)


I'm cool with that too.
Wynning since October 25, 2008.

Quote from: Ami on November 23, 2010, 03:40:39 PM
>craft newbie into good player

You accidentally snap newbie into useless pieces.


Discord:The7DeadlyVenomz#3870

Just to be clear... The option of being allowed to hire Gemmed in some capacity for the Byn does not equate to change in the laws around magick. Byn Gemmed will not be using magick in the sparring ring, if they did they would face the same consequences as any Gemmed using magick out of turn within the City.

Quote from: Usiku on April 05, 2024, 10:01:06 AMJust to be clear... The option of being allowed to hire Gemmed in some capacity for the Byn does not equate to change in the laws around magick. Byn Gemmed will not be using magick in the sparring ring, if they did they would face the same consequences as any Gemmed using magick out of turn within the City.

Quote from: MagefallBrief summary of changes to the clanning of Gemmed —
There will be a Gemmed NPC in the T'zai Byn and PC officers will be able to decide if they'd like to recruit Gemmed in a limited capacity.
The Tor Academy will welcome Gemmed and magick-powered sparring under the watchful eye of the Scorpion Elite.
The Templarate will have final say on Gemmed accepting employment from a clan. Bribes accepted!

It's sort of pointed to in the Magefall announcement. I mean, it does say House Tor, but I find it unlikely that if its allowed for Tor you won't find people doing it secretly in the Byn. Just like those Bynners could never leave the gates or head into the 'rinth.

I tripped and Fale down my stairs. Drink milk and you'll grow Uaptal. I know this guy from the state of Tenneshi. This house will go up Borsail tomorrow. I gave my book to him Nenyuk it back again. I hired this guy golfing to Kadius around for a while.

Just because "the docs" say you can't have magick on in the ring, doesn't mean people won't put magick on in the ring.

Like @Bogre said ... Bynners also aren't allowed to leave the gates, or go to the 'rinth, and Allanaki Bynners shouldn't be on spice, etc etc.

The rules have to be enforced by PCs first, and if those PCs would rather their elf-mage friends with maximum agility because of spells? They're not going to tell anyone. Which means staff have to enforce it, and no staff wants to enforce that.
Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on May 20, 2013, 11:16:52 PM
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Quote from: Usiku on April 05, 2024, 10:01:06 AMByn Gemmed will not be using magick in the sparring ring, if they did they would face the same consequences as any Gemmed using magick out of turn within the City.

Quote from: Riev on April 05, 2024, 06:13:11 PMJust because "the docs" say you can't have magick on in the ring, doesn't mean people won't put magick on in the ring.

Like @Bogre said ... Bynners also aren't allowed to leave the gates, or go to the 'rinth, and Allanaki Bynners shouldn't be on spice, etc etc.

The rules have to be enforced by PCs first, and if those PCs would rather their elf-mage friends with maximum agility because of spells? They're not going to tell anyone. Which means staff have to enforce it, and no staff wants to enforce that.

It's illegal. It's not against the rules.

Which means that staff will for sure make sure that you are doing your dirt on the DL, or they will indeed enforce the game world's response.
Wynning since October 25, 2008.

Quote from: Ami on November 23, 2010, 03:40:39 PM
>craft newbie into good player

You accidentally snap newbie into useless pieces.


Discord:The7DeadlyVenomz#3870

April 06, 2024, 12:20:11 AM #47 Last Edit: April 06, 2024, 12:33:34 AM by Dresan
I want to note that sparring with magic is like sparring with real weapon, i am not too concerned with people doing it.

However in the past, good sparring opportunities with mages were at times harder to come by, even if you were a hidden mage. Now its potentially easier to train up a mage within certain clans vs being a  mul or halfgiant.

Also magick tools will probably go into more common circulation, sure maybe you wont see people showing it off at the tavern but available enough to the point where anyone adverse to magick will find themselves at great disadvantage in this setting.

Heck, this setting makes mages more fuckable than my mundane city elf. Only time will tell how it will turn out but i can see mundane characters having a harder time being a relevant majority.

Quote from: Dresan on April 06, 2024, 12:20:11 AMI want to note that sparring with magic is like sparring with real weapon, i am not too concerned with people doing it.

However in the past, good sparring opportunities with mages were at times harder to come by, even if you were a hidden mage. Now its potentially easier to train up a mage within certain clans vs being a  mul or halfgiant.

Also magick tools will probably go into more common circulation, sure maybe you wont see people showing it off at the tavern but available enough to the point where anyone adverse to magick will find themselves at great disadvantage in this setting.

Heck, this setting makes mages more fuckable than my mundane city elf. Only time will tell how it will turn out but i can see mundane characters having a harder time being a relevant majority.
This might be a valid concern, but I think a cap on mages solves that problem. A mage can be as scary as they wanna be, but if they are 1 in 10, they are in a strong minority.
Wynning since October 25, 2008.

Quote from: Ami on November 23, 2010, 03:40:39 PM
>craft newbie into good player

You accidentally snap newbie into useless pieces.


Discord:The7DeadlyVenomz#3870

Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on April 05, 2024, 11:33:37 PM
Quote from: Usiku on April 05, 2024, 10:01:06 AMByn Gemmed will not be using magick in the sparring ring, if they did they would face the same consequences as any Gemmed using magick out of turn within the City.

Quote from: Riev on April 05, 2024, 06:13:11 PMJust because "the docs" say you can't have magick on in the ring, doesn't mean people won't put magick on in the ring.

Like @Bogre said ... Bynners also aren't allowed to leave the gates, or go to the 'rinth, and Allanaki Bynners shouldn't be on spice, etc etc.

The rules have to be enforced by PCs first, and if those PCs would rather their elf-mage friends with maximum agility because of spells? They're not going to tell anyone. Which means staff have to enforce it, and no staff wants to enforce that.

It's illegal. It's not against the rules.

Which means that staff will for sure make sure that you are doing your dirt on the DL, or they will indeed enforce the game world's response.

I fully understand the difference, man, but my point is that the things I listed? Are "illegal" for Bynners to do.

All this would do is require staff to be MORE present in checking if spells are on mages, unless they set up a way to have a Byn Krathi Guard who refuses entry to people who are glowing or whatever.

As I understand it, even with the staffing changes, they are not keen on enforcing these kinds of things. Illegal, or against the rules, the end result is taking staff attention because a player really wants to spar with magick on.
Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on May 20, 2013, 11:16:52 PM
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.