Camping Idea Thread

[Halaster]

I finished what I'm calling the version 1 of camping and ... I don't really love it.  The way it works is you "make camp", have a delay based on skill, and it adds the Camp and Safe flags to the room for some duration.  The bonus to regen of hps/stamina/stun that you get are based on the skill level of the person who made the camp.  You can remove the camp with 'break camp'.  This approach (intentionally) does not save across reboots.

This all works just fine, but it seems kinda boring and dull to me.  So I thought I'd ask for y'alls input on how it could work.

One alternative idea is instead of adding a flag, have it add a camp object, like a wagon object. You 'enter camp' and then inside you can rest and get the bonuses.  Drawbacks to that are that you can't really see out in a direction, you have to have some poor schmuck outside keeping watch (or not).  You have to worry about aggressive things coming and trying to destroy it.  One positive thing to this approach is that the camp object would save between reboots.  In either case, it would eventually have an expiration as we wouldn't want the world littered with campsites (or do we??).

Supplies / Materials / Tools:  As an add-on, we could have camp sites require supplies to build it.  These supplies could have different quality levels that affect the bonuses as well.  Supplies could be crafted by someone with the camping skill (or bought at a store).  The supplies could be required, or they could be optional.  If they're optional, it just means they'd have extra bonuses.  Maybe supplies automatically add a campfire.

Basically, I'm looking for feedback and ideas of how to make this idea less boring than my first version.  Unless folks think it's fine like it is.

[mansa]

What does the 'camp' and 'safe' flags mean?

[MarshallDFX]

are you able to see a camp from a distance, like a fort/obelisk or whatever?  Particularly at night if a camp implies a fire (does it?).

I've said elsewhere I'm a big fan of the idea of more coin sinks in terms of having upgrades to things, like a cooler looking camp.  RDR2 mechanics. 

Does the camp modify the room description or have an object with a long description? Could it even be possible to have a variety of combinations of items which would customise that description?

[Halaster]

What does the 'camp' and 'safe' flags mean?

Sorry, Safe just means quit safe (Quit).
Camp flag is what gives the regen bonuses.

[Halaster]

are you able to see a camp from a distance, like a fort/obelisk or whatever?  Particularly at night if a camp implies a fire (does it?).

I've said elsewhere I'm a big fan of the idea of more coin sinks in terms of having upgrades to things, like a cooler looking camp.  RDR2 mechanics. 

Does the camp modify the room description or have an object with a long description? Could it even be possible to have a variety of combinations of items which would customise that description?

Currently it modifies the room desc, like how restful shade does.
"An average quality campsite is here, nestles among the dunes" (messages is based on sector)

[MarshallDFX]

does it make any difference if a tent is set up inside a campsite

[Armaddict]

-Add some sort of interaction with maintenance that extends the duration, which can be done by people with lower skill but at a cost of the original bonuses.  Make the bonuses somehow adjustable based off of maxduration - grace period as the beginning of when the decay begins.  This makes camping in 'groups' mildly more sustainable, but it does require people to log in to 'refresh' the duration.

-As much as possible, work towards some ability for it to last through reboots.  I know that's a big ask according to history, but that's really a big step towards creating 'naturally decaying' hot spots of activity.  Thus, 6 people out in the wilds can actually do quite well at their chosen spot, but as people stop logging in, or die, the camp starts hitting a natural state of decay until it disappears and the save room is eliminated, naturally preventing the old 'stockpile no one is using' problem, but simultaneously allows players to create fake areas of their own for people to play in, but that naturally destroy themselves without activity.  Big movement towards player-created stuff without the big formality of clans.  Maybe a big step of player created clans that allows them to be wilderness based, allowing for more permanence as they follow that process and better upgrades into an actual, small, village object/desert compound.

-Make some sort of interaction between the camp and camping/wilderness survival objects.  You may not need a tent to make a camp, especially if there's a craftable shelter to add to the camp, but they increase durations/bonuses/other various boons/dilemmas, as you decide, based on how structured and useful you want them to be, and how much work to maintain/keep.

-Add interactions between weather and camp sites that have specific effects.  Same with different wildlife.

-Add 'stages'.  First stage is cheap/free and easy, but has a low bonus and duration.  Second stage requires materials/craftable addons, extends duration and increases bonus, etc.  Each stage unlocks different craftables to upgrade it.

-Obviously, as mentioned, craftable addons, maybe some of them skill dependent so that dune traders, specifically, make great camps.

-Not an idea, but a sidenote, the more robust this feature becomes, the more you likely want to adjust wilderness survival as a whole since this is obviously a pretty big boon for a relatively hospitable wilderness.

-If these sorts of expansions are made, and the playerbase flocks to them for a decent length of time to the detriment of cities, nuke allanak from orbit and make season 2 tribal-based with no civilization centers.

Some of these are larger projects than others, but this is just spitballed 'possibles'.

[Urbais]

-Obviously, as mentioned, craftable addons, maybe some of them skill dependent so that dune traders, specifically, make great camps.

Being able to buy something like "ceramic pots and pans" or "an animal hitching post" that provides additional bonuses if a camp is present, -OR- extends the duration of the camp itself would be great.

[Lizzie]

If this is available as a mundane skill, is there any point in a certain magick spell continuing to exist? I don't recall if that spell results in a quit-safe room but if it doesn't, maybe it should, given that this mundane skill does essentially the same thing.

[mansa]

Here's some general thoughts:

I like the idea of having camp stages:

stage 1 : lasts 30 minutes irl time
stage 2 : lasts 60 minutes irl time, then goes down to stage 1.
stage 3 : lasts 1500 minutes irl time, then goes down to stage 2.
stage 4 : lasts 4500 minutes irl time, then goes down to stage 3.

Anyone can make a camp at stage 1, and requires no additional items.
Heavy Winds will prevent people from making a camp at stage 1
Winds might "break" camp at stage 1.
gives good recovery rates

Stage 2 requires skills to make, OR people without the skill can use resource items.
Heavy Winds might "break" camp down to stage 1.
The recovery rates at stage 1 and stage 2 are the same.  The only difference is the length of time it exists.


Stage 3 requires resource items to make.  It lasts much longer, and has better recovery rates, and has an 'enterable' tent.  This tent gets destroyed after use. It makes the room 'quit'.

Stage 4 requires resource items to make.  It lasts much longer than Stage 3.


These resource items can be purchased in the city, or crafted with the tentmaking skill.  It gives more reason to make it.




Premise #1 - Anyone can make a campsite, which would make anyone in the room "regenerate faster".  Weather dependant.
Premise #2 - Those skillful or those who have "resource items" can make the room "regenerate faster" in harsher climates and last longer than a typical site.
Premise #3 - Very skillful people AND/OR very expensive "resource items" can add additional perks to the room, be that "regenerate even faster" or "quit" or something else - perhaps a permanent structure.
Premise #4 - Multiple characters can add to the "construction" of a campsite somehow.
Premise #5 - Weather / Animals can ruin a campsite and reduce the efficiency of them.
Premise #6 - Tentmaking crafting skill should be utilized to craft "resource items" for making camp - to give more recipes to that skilltree.

[dumbstruck]

-Add some sort of interaction with maintenance that extends the duration, which can be done by people with lower skill but at a cost of the original bonuses.  Make the bonuses somehow adjustable based off of maxduration - grace period as the beginning of when the decay begins.  This makes camping in 'groups' mildly more sustainable, but it does require people to log in to 'refresh' the duration.

-As much as possible, work towards some ability for it to last through reboots.  I know that's a big ask according to history, but that's really a big step towards creating 'naturally decaying' hot spots of activity.  Thus, 6 people out in the wilds can actually do quite well at their chosen spot, but as people stop logging in, or die, the camp starts hitting a natural state of decay until it disappears and the save room is eliminated, naturally preventing the old 'stockpile no one is using' problem, but simultaneously allows players to create fake areas of their own for people to play in, but that naturally destroy themselves without activity.  Big movement towards player-created stuff without the big formality of clans.  Maybe a big step of player created clans that allows them to be wilderness based, allowing for more permanence as they follow that process and better upgrades into an actual, small, village object/desert compound.

-Make some sort of interaction between the camp and camping/wilderness survival objects.  You may not need a tent to make a camp, especially if there's a craftable shelter to add to the camp, but they increase durations/bonuses/other various boons/dilemmas, as you decide, based on how structured and useful you want them to be, and how much work to maintain/keep.

-Add interactions between weather and camp sites that have specific effects.  Same with different wildlife.

-Add 'stages'.  First stage is cheap/free and easy, but has a low bonus and duration.  Second stage requires materials/craftable addons, extends duration and increases bonus, etc.  Each stage unlocks different craftables to upgrade it.

-Obviously, as mentioned, craftable addons, maybe some of them skill dependent so that dune traders, specifically, make great camps.

-Not an idea, but a sidenote, the more robust this feature becomes, the more you likely want to adjust wilderness survival as a whole since this is obviously a pretty big boon for a relatively hospitable wilderness.

-If these sorts of expansions are made, and the playerbase flocks to them for a decent length of time to the detriment of cities, nuke allanak from orbit and make season 2 tribal-based with no civilization centers.

Some of these are larger projects than others, but this is just spitballed 'possibles'.

For as often as I disagree with Armaddict and his claiming to be a city playing socializer, this made my isolationist explorer heart sing. I love the idea of wilderness and the ability of any sort of players to affect meaningful change on things (as it's really one of the biggest boons of the medium), and I love every part of this suggestion.

I also love Mansa's post, though I would love to see it scaled up by time to 9000 for a stage 5 master camp, because that'd be just under a RL week and so many other things in the game are keyed to that time cycle (clan pay, apartment rents, etc) that I feel like it would jive harmoniously with preexisting systems in a way that felt fulfilling and intentional. Maybe if possible have a flag on the inside camp room that's flagged to autowatch/listen the outer room since you cannot watch directions.

[digitaleak]

I really love Mansa's post as well. The stages add flavor to the mechanic and also incentive for the player to either travel with someone who can make a good camp or learn how to make one yourself at a cost of either time or coin.

As a rule of thumb, I would not want camps to be permanent unless someone is actively maintaining it in some fashion (and even then, with the possibility of it being destroyed by weather or hostile forces). For me, it would break realism to walk around the wastes and see an abandoned camp site every few feet/every other room.

[MarshallDFX]

perhaps the existence of a camp persisting with "hunt" for a RL day or so?

[CirclelessBard]

I would love to see camp effectiveness and size scale with maintenance and resources in such a way that large and/or permanent camps are effectively only practical if several people work on the initial building and upkeep of the camp. It also should be possible for people without the required skill to contribute to the camp building process as long as someone with the skill is in the room leading the effort. A single person could make a big camp but would find it hard to do so. Make a "many hands make light work" effect where two people working on one camp can make it faster than those same two people building separate camps on their own. I think the stages idea mentioned would be a nice way to model this, where each stage has a minimum recommended builders value that makes reaching that stage more practical.

Basically my thinking is that the game should encourage group play whenever possible, but in a way that doesn't detract from solo play.

[Lotion]

I think exceedingly IC solutions to mostly ooc problems often don't accomplish their goals very well. Wilderness quit as it exists has only one major flaw imo: no mount stamina regen. Currently city characters can stable a mount, quit, and then come back to a fully rested mount. Mount feeding is not an adequate solution to this problem, as wilderness characters must still often rest their mount for long periods of time at either the beginning or end of a gameplay loop.

[papertiger]

Well heck. Now I want to be able to camp on a rooftop.

[mansa]

... Wilderness quit as it exists has only one major flaw imo: no mount stamina regen. Currently city characters can stable a mount, quit, and then come back to a fully rested mount. ...

Is there a way, with either wilderness quit or with camp, to update Mount stamina?

The situation becomes:
I logged out with my tired Mount at midnight.

The next day, I have an hour to play, so I log in at 11 pm with my tired Mount.  I spend 15 minutes having it regenerate movement points while I idle, and then I only have 45 minutes of playtime before I need to camp again.

[Lotion]

I really hope wilderness mount stamina mechanics can become more respecting of players' time. Way too many times I've typed gone netflix during mount stam regen and then still kept an eye on my mud client so that nothing happens. I can't remember a single time when something interesting has happened during all of those times.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

Maybe what you could do is have only a select handful of rooms in the wilderness able to have a camp. For example, one such room could be under a shaded outcropping, another example is by a small oasis (if those exist?), or within some ruins, or among some big rocks that just happen to be there. Something that isn't just out in the middle of nowhere in the sands, completely exposed.

Another thing about it being 'boring' .. it could be because of the 'safe' flags. Those often get abused don't they? I'd say just have no safe flags at all. When people log out (which is the purpose of camping in the first place) they're already safe.

Make it so others can raid or destroy the camps, and setting up a camp requires at least a tent and a lot of supplies. So let's say you set up a camp, it's a bit of a lengthy in game process. Then you're done. You can rest and recover there (not safe) but you can also log out. Now maybe someone else can come upon your camp. They could choose to rest there as well (logging out) or they might raid the camp, which lets them loot resources from it and effectively destroys the camp. Alternatively, they could just raze the camp, which leaves nothing useful there.

When someone logs back in, a number of things could happen. We can assume that the reason they weren't harmed when the camp was raided or destroyed was because they were actually 'out' doing something. But either way, they return to the site, and if no one raided or razed their camp, it's still pretty much as they were, it's still a recovery room, and they could still choose to log out there again. If the camp was raided or razed, they'll log back in to the mess and a room that can no longer be camped in.

[Riev]

The idea of making a "new room" has its merits, as it kind of flags it like <certain spell I'm thinking of>. It can also, in that manner, create a few different kinds of camp with different levels of regen.

I would personally avoid making a "camp" anything more than effectively a couple tents and a campfire for light. If you want something more permanent, maybe someone with high levels of camping skill could petition staff but that seems outside scope here.

Having a quit-safe area in the wilderness is nice. For people who don't have it, it can be a real hassle to use your quit ooc. Also, the camps are more often for the mounts to rest moreso than the people riding them.

I guess my main question would be "What is the intention of making camps"? Is it to make quit safe rooms? To make mobile social areas for nomadic-type people? Is it to have high-regen areas for when a sandstorm is just too tough to navigate? Heck, is it to eventually camp in the same spot for 2 RL months and ask staff for a 'perm' camp to be set up?

[Lotion]

Maybe what you could do is have only a select handful of rooms in the wilderness able to have a camp. For example, one such room could be under a shaded outcropping, another example is by a small oasis (if those exist?), or within some ruins, or among some big rocks that just happen to be there. Something that isn't just out in the middle of nowhere in the sands, completely exposed.

We have that already in the form of quit rooms.

[Halaster]

I guess my main question would be "What is the intention of making camps"? Is it to make quit safe rooms? To make mobile social areas for nomadic-type people? Is it to have high-regen areas for when a sandstorm is just too tough to navigate? Heck, is it to eventually camp in the same spot for 2 RL months and ask staff for a 'perm' camp to be set up?

It's to make quit-safe rooms, to have higher regen rates for people out in the wilderness, while removing many of the wilderness quit-safe rooms.

[Riev]

Tents can be destroyed by random aggressive beasts. Is there a way to code in a specific offense or skill level that would allow a mobile/PC/NPC to destroy a camp?

What would happen if someone quit out at a camp that then was destroyed? Do they still login at the same spot? Does the camp become "a destroyed camp" and not allow a new camp to be created there (or maybe requires a higher level of camping to make it again?)

Just trying to get the scope of it, because what you have accomplishes your goals, but the biggest benefit so far really is the regeneration it would allow to people inside.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

Maybe what you could do is have only a select handful of rooms in the wilderness able to have a camp. For example, one such room could be under a shaded outcropping, another example is by a small oasis (if those exist?), or within some ruins, or among some big rocks that just happen to be there. Something that isn't just out in the middle of nowhere in the sands, completely exposed.

We have that already in the form of quit rooms.

That's not really what I said.

I'm talking about a room that has a POTENTIAL to be a quit room out in the wilderness, but first supplies have to be spent and a camping skill has to be performed to make it so. And with an attack it can be reverted back to a non-quit room.

[Lotion]

I do not think we should be requiring an expenditure of non virtual in character resources in order to log out in certain situations. Logging out is a purely ooc construct. My understanding of contemporary wilderness quit is that characters with the ability to wilderness quit are able to do so because the character can virtually survive in the wilderness.