Feedback Request - City Elves

[zilcho]

I feel like the baked-in racism towards Elves was a better breeding ground for interactions back when the game had a higher number of players. That meant you and your elf buddies could make that one fucking prick in the Gaj pay.

Going into the gaj as with my ranger who was the lone mundane human in the room too often and getting accosted with cheerful RP from a pair of gemmed and your only alternative for a conversation is an elf with a tumor or something was not as much fun to navigate when I was actually started playing again in late Nov.


The answer shouldn't have been "have less elves" or "have less gemmed" it should have been "generate social change via an HRPT that would force elves and gemmed to be accepted by humans because the Vong are the greater threat." or something like that. Elven racism was an artifact of a time when an RPI could have 60+ players on your average Tuesday.

[Tuannon]

It's not racism.. While elves are descended from halflings like everyone else (who matter), they are suitably different.

And I'm not sure it's the elf way to just beat people up for saying ignorant things to you, rob them, make them look like idiots and enrich your crew maybe, but beating them up is the same level of crude that round ears who can't run across the bazaar without tripping over something exhibit.

This scenario is of course under normal circumstances.

[CirclelessBard]

While the discussion about races in the game's setting is interesting and valuable feedback for the game, please try to adhere to the rules and keep the discussion on-topic. If you'd like to continue discussing races in the game's setting in a general sense, please make a new thread. This thread should pertain more specifically to feedback on city elves. Thanks, everyone!

[Kavrick]

I honestly struggle to see how talking about the racism dynamics in the game isnt on topic for the question of "what would make city elves more appealing to play." Racism in the game is a big factor for what races people play, including, or even especially city elves.

Elves in general, counter to their dark sun lore have been written into a corner of only really being able to stick to their tribe. This means no matter what you do, you're an outsider to everyone who's not in your tribe. And this is even enforced with "no elves" policies that exist in the majority of factions.

City elves are basically forced to either play a Byn training dummy or a criminal. No one will trust them because of the ironically criminal use of "all X are/do/like/value Y" in the racial documents and are excluded from playing more benevolent roles.

Sadly I don't see the issue with the racial writing going away. Armageddon has shown time and time again that they're extremely hesitant to change something from how it was 20 years ago. The funny thing is, it's not even a product of it's time, because as mentioned before, the elves in the Dark Sun writing have far more wiggle room for nuance and aren't branded with "all elves like to steal" which in my opinion is the biggest sin in the writing of the race.

[Kavrick]

Also on a completely unrelated note. I shouldn't need to point out that there is STILL no southern tribe for city elves... A race which is incredibly tribe-based. That's probably a pretty massive factor I to why people might not be playing them.

[Tuannon]

Racism is more along the lines of I dunno.. elves with blonde hair and purple uWu eyes hating on elves with dusky complexion. Nitpick aside, I think city elves need to be elevated out of the gross stereotypes commonfolk have for them.

Namely, they are either criminal rooftop elves or east side (of the 'rinth) elves. In Allanak I think Jal or the GMHs may hire them as discussed above, I doubt a top tier of His Nine would, but Jal certainly as they already hire gross dorfs and have a thing (it may have been a PC originated idea mind you) for building trust as some of the things the swabs get up to are really sketchy/dangerous.

I think I already mentioned it, so I'm going to stop beating the dead horse I suppose.

[Lizzie]

First off, I also don't like tossing the term "racism" around. It reeks of real-world influence, and this is a fantasy game.  We're not dealing with Inuit vs. Sudanese. Both of those are human, not "humanoid."  In the game, there aren't multiple types of humans. There are humans, and there are elves, dwarves, etc. etc. They're all humanoid, but only one set is human.

I think we need to take the real-world sensitivity of actual real-world racism out of the equation completely. If we take the lore-written background out of city elves, then all that's left is tall skinny humans with pointy ears. I think people need to stop trying to humanize all the races of Armageddon. Only humans are human, in this game. It's like y'all are trying to put an arctic fox, a chihuahua, and a jakhal in the same cage and expecting them to all enjoy each others' existence or something. It's very weird. Yes, they're all canines. But they are not similar. They have completely different environments, different breeding habits, different hunting techniques, different relationships with other species.

If no one wants to play an elf, then make them virtual and NPCs, like gith and raptors. Or do something to make them extinct. But that would also mean no more half-elves.

[mansa]

Hi,

Just a friendly reminder:

Don't tell other community members that their posts and their ideas are "adding nothing to the conversation". 

Each person here should be able to share their ideas without someone else telling them they are wrong and useless.

[Dar]

Sadly I don't see the issue with the racial writing going away. Armageddon has shown time and time again that they're extremely hesitant to change something from how it was 20 years ago. The funny thing is, it's not even a product of it's time, because as mentioned before, the elves in the Dark Sun writing have far more wiggle room for nuance and aren't branded with "all elves like to steal" which in my opinion is the biggest sin in the writing of the race.

I sure hope it won't go away. I barely if ever played Sun Runners (The nobles of the Sands), because I like Elves for their option of playing an underdog. I like that they're persecuted and have a tough life. It is a role that I enjoy playing. I just would prefer for there to be some form of purpose and reasoning for their survival, despite the antagonism that they're incurring inside the cities.

[Kavrick]

because I like Elves for their option of playing an underdog. I like that they're persecuted and have a tough life.

Removing mandatory racism wouldn't make it so you can no longer play underdogs. Also elves aren't really underdogs? In lots of areas of the game they're the dominant race so I don't completely understand this. A good example is the Two Moons tribe, they're completely the underdog among desert elves due to their relationship with Allanak, and in return, they're actually held in higher regard by humans. You don't need racism to have underdogs.

[FamousAmos]

A good example is the Two Moons tribe, they're completely the underdog among desert elves due to their relationship with Allanak, and in return, they're actually held in higher regard by humans.

I agree to disagree with that statement. Just because the Templarate has some control over these Two Moons it doesn't mean they're automatically trusted, let alone being regarded respectfully.

Now, if a Two Moon in question perhaps did some in game things, in example saving an Allanaki or 2 from imminent death, their personal regard might elevate in some PC's eyes.

But elves will be elves, as is expected of them.

[Kavrick]

I agree to disagree with that statement. Just because the Templarate has some control over these Two Moons it doesn't mean they're automatically trusted, let alone being regarded respectfully.

I didn't say they were automatically trusted, I said they were held in 'higher regard', rather than 'high regard'. As in 'higher regard when compared to other elves', which is completely true.

[betweenford]

First off, I also don't like tossing the term "racism" around. It reeks of real-world influence, and this is a fantasy game.  We're not dealing with Inuit vs. Sudanese. Both of those are human, not "humanoid."  In the game, there aren't multiple types of humans. There are humans, and there are elves, dwarves, etc. etc. They're all humanoid, but only one set is human.

I think we need to take the real-world sensitivity of actual real-world racism out of the equation completely. If we take the lore-written background out of city elves, then all that's left is tall skinny humans with pointy ears. I think people need to stop trying to humanize all the races of Armageddon. Only humans are human, in this game. It's like y'all are trying to put an arctic fox, a chihuahua, and a jakhal in the same cage and expecting them to all enjoy each others' existence or something. It's very weird. Yes, they're all canines. But they are not similar. They have completely different environments, different breeding habits, different hunting techniques, different relationships with other species.

If no one wants to play an elf, then make them virtual and NPCs, like gith and raptors. Or do something to make them extinct. But that would also mean no more half-elves.

This post shows that you do not understand the source material for the game very well, nor the "distrust" around elves or half elves or their various characteristics.

In many ways, your understanding of how people should treat elves and half elves echoes real life racism more than anything Dark Sun or Armageddon intended.

EDIT: because the mod team insists I add some clarification:
Half Elves and Elves within Armageddonmud feature some pretty heavy flanderization compared to their original depiction within Dark Sun. Half elves are not a product of rape in Dark Sun for example, and originally there was no mention of this in Arm either until like ten years ago or whatever.

Lizzie makes the comparison that all of these humanoids are at their core "not human", when in their depictions, when practically every humanoid race except for the Thri-Kreen/Mantis are supposed to be humanlike and empathetic in many ways except a handful. Every one of the character-playable races in DarkSun(except Half-Giant and Mantis) are very much capable in seeing each other as empathetic thinking creatures, breeding with them, and getting along.  Literally all of the PC races in the tabletop are humanized except for the Thri-Kreen, who are literal bugs with sapient-humanoid characteristics and all that alien-thought-processes entail.

Elven "thievery" isn't at the core of their identity, elven Honor is. Removing attributes like making all elves NOT thieves doesn't detract from their "humanization" because they're already quirky tall humans with an especially weird system of culture. The docs on elven thievery are derived from a few lines and paragraphs in elven honor. The effective gist of it all is the same as "all elves are thieves" in a way, elves are extremely capricious and cruel to those who are outside of their trusted circle, because anyone they cannot trust is not afforded a lick of honor or a second thought to any immoral acts.

In much the same way, elves declining animal transport is decently flanderized from the tabletop, as well as the relevant statblocks of various mounts invalidating in some ways the primary abilities of the elven race. They see themselves as better than any sort of animal transport and often magical transport because their legs are better than animal or magickal transport. They can run 30-50 miles per day without additional exertion while kanks and inixes can only do like 15 miles a day. They can also shamelessly ride mounts if they're infirm.

Elves find employment in the armies of city states, they mingle with mercenaries, they trade regularly with humans just as much as they steal, raid, and kill. Humans are ironically, as stated in the rulebook, tolerant of all the other races. They see pretty much no issues with dealing with elves or half elves; but typically see them as strangers they'd never accept into their clan, hearth, or home.

Half elves are a product of Elven Abandonment because they physically cannot meet the demands of an elven tribes' nomadic lifestyle (running fifty miles a day). Elves and humans can and do find half-elves and each other to be mistakeable for each other at a glance and mingle enough to be seen as potential mates for a tryst, though only the especially cruel of any elf or human group enact any cruelty to half-elves; and those groups literally act cruel to anyone who is weaker than them in-setting.  Their intolerance is one born of necessity for elves, because they can't run as fast for as long as an elf due to their human ancestry.

[Dar]

because I like Elves for their option of playing an underdog. I like that they're persecuted and have a tough life.

Removing mandatory racism wouldn't make it so you can no longer play underdogs. Also elves aren't really underdogs? In lots of areas of the game they're the dominant race so I don't completely understand this. A good example is the Two Moons tribe, they're completely the underdog among desert elves due to their relationship with Allanak, and in return, they're actually held in higher regard by humans. You don't need racism to have underdogs.

Really? 


Because whenever I play a breed that is useful and affective, enough people discard racism and value my good will over the good will of noble aides and sometimes nobles themselves. 

Racism is irrational. Racism, ignorance, and fear are one of very few methods of keeping roles that ment to be socially lower rung (mages, breed grabbers,  crime immune merchant celves) to be actually lower rung.

Remove irrationality and nobility and their aides lose their role positions in the social hierarchy. 

[Lizzie]

References to Dark Sun and tabletop are totally lost on me, since I've never played either and haven't ever read any Dark Sun material.  So it seems like someone is reading into what I say, some perspective I'm not capable of having.

Elves, half-elves, humans, dwarves, gith, half-giants, and muls are all humanoids. But only humans are human.

From the documentation - elves have "stealing" practically ingrained in their biological makeup. A con, a scam, burglary, robbery, raiding, pickpocketing - it's part of what makes them elves.

Other humanoids might do these things, but other humanoids aren't DESIGNED to do these things, and the fact that they do these things isn't built into their documentation.

Just like half-giants are all stupid. Dwarves can be stupid too, but stupidity isn't part of their documentation.  For muls, it's even more profound - their rage against their own existence is hard-coded into their combat events.  Other races might feel rage, and half-elves are even known to have perpetual angst. But only muls are documented to fly into fits of violent, uncontrollable rage.

The thing that makes elves elves, and not tall skinny humans with pointy ears, is this whole completely foreign concept that their whole existence revolves around a pride in being able to "put one over" on others.  If you take that away, then yeah - they're just tall skinny humans with pointy ears. No need for them to exist as a separate race at all.

[betweenford]

References to Dark Sun and tabletop are totally lost on me, since I've never played either and haven't ever read any Dark Sun material.  So it seems like someone is reading into what I say, some perspective I'm not capable of having.

The gist of it is that your perspective on elven racism is incongruous with arm and Dark Sun; and overinflated for what the level of xenophobia, mistrust, and inferiority that is portrayed in the docs.

[betweenford]

From the documentation - elves have "stealing" ingrained in their biological makeup. A con, a scam, burglary, robbery, raiding, pickpocketing - it's part of what makes them elves.

Other humanoids might do these things, but other humanoids aren't DESIGNED to do these things, and the fact that they do these things isn't built into their documentation.

It is cultural, not biological. Please re-read elven documentation.

https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/City%20Elf%20Roleplay

The desert elf helpfile can also be referenced. All elves are thieves not out of some biological dependency or quirk; it's a matter of pride, and doubly reinforced by the lack of honor afforded to those outside of the tribe.

Both helpfiles as well as the documentation surrounding elves is derived from the Dark Sun AD&D campaign rule book. I suggest you give it a read for additional perspective.

[Lizzie]

I added the word "practically" to my post, because I realized that I had omitted it. I added it apparently while you were typing your response. Doesn't change things - stealing is part of what makes elves - elves. That's my point, it's what I said in my previous posts, and nothing you say contradicts it. And no I'm not interested in Dark Sun, or AD&D.

[Kavrick]

This is gonna sound very catty but. If elves aren't elves if you removed the part about them all being obsessed with thievery, maybe the writing could use more nuance and attention.

[Roon]

It isn't necessarily centered around the manual act of picking pockets. Elves have a cultural need to get one over on outsiders. This can be conning them, stealing from them, testing them to see if they'll do what you want them to do, and probably all manner of similar mischief. It's just that actual theft is the only one for which there's coded support, so it was always going to be the most prominent one. With coded theft, you don't have to get someone to play along with your scheme, so you don't rely on players being good sports. You can let the code decide.

I figure it's a result of the fact that elves were once a dominant race in the world but was surpassed by humans once sorcerer-kings and cities came about. The 'theft gene' is like a "fuck you" to civilization, which has just happened to morph into a view that extends to anyone outside of their tribe. I don't think it's necessarry to consider it analogous to real-world racism. It's an actual reality of Zalanthas that elves will screw you over if they see the chance, so the cultural aversion to them is a matter of self-preservation based on actual real necessity, not misguided and baseless hate.

It's a fantasy world. Animosity between races is allowed. In this case, it's very clear why the animosity exists. These races have been at odds for millennia and it's simply how Zalanthas is. We're not better served doing away with that for the sake of living up to some modern-day real-world ideals of equality. It reeks of faux-woke talk, and while I'm a staunch leftist, it leaves me wondering if the next step is to equate the hatred of magick to the struggles of the LGBTQ movement. Gotta say I'd prefer if all of that stayed out of the game.

The Zalanthan aversion to elves is not "racism" in a modern sense, it's protecting oneself against hostility and robbery, and it's necessary lore-wise. When watching Game of Thrones, did you find that the Westerosi stance towards wildlings invoked feelings of Jim Crow racism? Or was it just how people in a low-information society needed to act in order to keep themselves safe? The portrayal of conflict between races in a fantasy game does not hold back equality in our real world, so I don't see a need to fret about it so much. There just need to be more elf players so they aren't a tiny minority, and that's accomplished by making the elf race(s) more appealing through coded improvements and better clan availability. City elf tribes in particular have always been woefully neglected.

[roughneck]

If city elves had simple yet flexible coded clan-spaces the way that desert elves do, they would be much more playable and enjoyable. It would provide depth to the tribal nature of celves, and provide deeper consequence to conflict with other clans, because now the elven PC would have a tribe to protect and worry about, and elders to answer to. Risk is less risky when it's only your own neck on the line.

[Lizzie]

It's a fantasy world. Animosity between races is allowed. In this case, it's very clear why the animosity exists. These races have been at odds for millennia and it's simply how Zalanthas is. We're not better served doing away with that for the sake of living up to some modern-day real-world ideals of equality. It reeks of faux-woke talk, and while I'm a staunch leftist, it leaves me wondering if the next step is to equate the hatred of magick to the struggles of the LGBTQ movement. Gotta say I'd prefer if all of that stayed out of the game.

The Zalanthan aversion to elves is not "racism" in a modern sense, it's protecting oneself against hostility and robbery, and it's necessary lore-wise. When watching Game of Thrones, did you find that the Westerosi stance towards wildlings invoked feelings of Jim Crow racism? Or was it just how people in a low-information society needed to act in order to keep themselves safe? The portrayal of conflict between races in a fantasy game does not hold back equality in our real world, so I don't see a need to fret about it so much. There just need to be more elf players so they aren't a tiny minority, and that's accomplished by making the elf race(s) more appealing through coded improvements and better clan availability. City elf tribes in particular have always been woefully neglected.

This is exactly my point, thank you for expressing it further.

[Dar]

If city elves had simple yet flexible coded clan-spaces the way that desert elves do, they would be much more playable and enjoyable. It would provide depth to the tribal nature of celves, and provide deeper consequence to conflict with other clans, because now the elven PC would have a tribe to protect and worry about, and elders to answer to. Risk is less risky when it's only your own neck on the line.

The problem with that is that it makes elves even more risk averse and encourages peaceful interaction with humans. Something that thematically should not be paramount to an elf.

If you give celves a tribe. Then you gotta give them a territory and enough virtual, social, and coded power to be able to protect themselves.

It's easy for delves to have a tribe and a camp, because they're in the middle of bumfuck nowhere and positioned in territory they are well suited for.


For Celves. Their territory is the city. And they're unable to leave. Which means whether it's southside, or east side. A single Templar can wipe them out.

[Dar]

If city elves had simple yet flexible coded clan-spaces the way that desert elves do, they would be much more playable and enjoyable. It would provide depth to the tribal nature of celves, and provide deeper consequence to conflict with other clans, because now the elven PC would have a tribe to protect and worry about, and elders to answer to. Risk is less risky when it's only your own neck on the line.

The problem with that is that it makes elves even more risk averse and encourages peaceful interaction with humans. Something that thematically should not be paramount to an elf.

If you give celves a tribe. Then you gotta give them a territory and enough virtual, social, and coded power to be able to protect themselves.

It's easy for delves to have a tribe and a camp, because they're in the middle of bumfuck nowhere and positioned in territory they are well suited for.


For Celves. Their territory is the city. And they're unable to leave. Which means whether it's southside, or east side. A single Templar can wipe them out.

When I was working towards the creation of RF camp. The staffer over Delves at the time told me. If RF get a camp, they will become extinct soon after. Because their culture encourages creation of enemies and the camp is a good target.  The 'soon after' took awhile, but guess whaaaaaaat.

[Bushranger]

Yeah I also worked a lot with Allanak elf tribes over a lot of years, and the Templar-Guild link was just too often present and there was nothing really for them to get out of being independent so they didn't bother, and so it was just a case of the elves being repeatedly exterminated over the smallest of reasons - The Guild is probably the biggest problem, I would absolutely support merging east and west in to the Allanak resistance. There doesn't even need to be an external threat, they should be the ones that are against the robes, especially with how little Tuluk tends to do about Allanak in general.

I really like this.  Even inside the Guild different crews can work against each other while both working for the Guild leadership.  The West side and East side should come together to keep the Labyrinth for themselves and maintain their work in greater Allanak from being poached by outsiders.  Have the Guild leadership and the 'Rinth elves leadership come together in a Commission to sit down and prevent each sides from constantly killing each other.  They can still compete to some degree but having them work together when needed would be a welcome change.

There has been a big history of rivalry between the West and East but remember what Slim Charles said: "The thing about the old days, They the old days."