Feedback Request - City Elves

[Halaster]

What are some ideas you all have to make city elves more interesting and appealing to play?

[Riev]

Something that defines them beyond high agility auto-bad guys.
A clan or tribe that arent just rent-a-thieves.
Something that allows a political bend that doesnt stop at the first templar who needs their 20 agility.

[Patuk]

What are some ideas you all have to make city elves more interesting and appealing to play?

Make them good at or for literally anything that isn't being a perpetual PITA. I've played many elves, but the only upside over a delf is being able to pick criminal classes. Armageddon is primarily an outside game, and anything in-city mostly excludes celves by default too. Give them something, and it'll at least be worth it.

[Tuannon]

Tuluk has the Akai S'Jir or what have you, a loyalist elf tribe who can be given the benefit of the doubt as being law abiding or at least templarate sympathetic.

Allanak has none of that, while no blue robe is going to stick up for an elf in Allanak, I think an 'out of the box' documentation or cultural change would need to be made to reflect that not all city elves born in the commons are criminals (although they are highly prone to being criminals).

Three minutes of thought so far.. Will add as more ideas come.

[FantasyWriter]

Open coded clans, two to three for variety.

Alternately, drastically reduce the city population of elves, eliminate city elf as a separate race and all city elf tribes while opening all classes up to desert elves (maybe requiring a spec app slot).
Require elves to either be indie/tribeless or join a d-elf clan. All playable d-elf tribes have a tent in the bazaar with a quit/save room in the back for while they are in the city, and give them the option of a sponsored fence (role, not class) that lives pretty much full time in the city.

Basically make them much more like darksun elves.

[papertiger]

Open a city elf clan that aren't (at least outwardly) just Templarate simps.

Maybe open the Guild to city elves - make them view the thing as their tribe, but they won't acknowledge anyone unproven. Maybe East side could have a tribe that was fiercely proud - so proud they won't kill outsiders they consider weak. (Okay I just hate pk and want more crime without the abrupt end in story) D: Make them strange and culty. Make them scary if crossed with ambient support so they're respected?

...give them free sewer stamina? I don't know. Some kind of perk maybe.

I know. I probably just came too late for the city elf gangs I want to play characters that are criminals who aren't automagically expected to kill people.

It would be nice if delves looked (or could look) to city elves with some kind of respect some how. Its easy (for me) to see how a city elf could respect a desert elf (even if theyd nope out of that life). City elves are just seen as oppressed from my understanding. Hopefully... actions will have an impact in that regard later. *prayerhands*

If city elves necessarily have to be oppressed because of theme, maybe a shadow org that can support the Arm?

[Kiyetal]

From the very first line of the helpfile on elves:

Elves are the second most populous race on the face of Zalanthas. Some evidence suggests that this was not always the case, but elves have been very numerous for as far back as anyone can remember.

The biggest problem with elves is never in the history of Armageddon has this ever felt like the case, playing an elf feels lonely, you're hindered far more than you're empowered. The "lonefoot" angle has been forced to be played too often, jarring, and should be the exception or the c-elf hardmode option instead of the norm. Appealing tribes would be nice, maybe one that had a foothold in all livable locations would be an interestin angle and open room for some mcb and spygames.

Maybe dial back slightly the expectation of everyone being xenophobic (but still making it an acceptable norm) to encourage more co-mingling and interaction.

Let c-elves join clans or take low-rank jobs that make sense.

Slightly nerfed version of d-elf desert run without getting any movement pt increase.

Maybe even allow some of the ranger-esque guilds to be selectable as a c-elf (would recommend balancing agility bonus to archery first)

Let elves ride skimmers, why not open the avenue for play too.

[Patuk]

The Akai Sjir are a pox on the face of the MUD. People who play city elves do not, in general, do so because they want their whole clan to be extremely deep up the templarate's backside. Less of that, less of that, less of that, I beg of thee.

[Master Color]

Ignore the temptation to just add yet another elf clan (this time with citrus/lime flavor).

Change the paradigm to allow pc elves to engage and integrate with the rest of the game.

They should be able to join clans. City elf running should be changed so that they don't hold up their clan by having to tent themselves every few rooms. They should not be griefed just for showing up to an rpt.

[tiny rainbow]

I played one of the most well-known elves around Luir's for a while (I also tried Akai Sjir to see what the fuss was about and I can absolutely say there is a lot of hidden depths to them that might not be obvious from the outside, and that's how it should be, they are Tuluki after all) and I often had problems with even sponsored roles behaving in ways that were OOCly dubious. One memorable time someone even got up and started scanning and emoting looking around after the *OOC disconnect and reconnect message while hiding*, that was just terrible. Other times I was often contacted to check if I was hiding (before the change) and then later contacted just to see if am online at the time a lot, too. The Way absolutely was used in an OOC way a LOT of the time and this needs to be addressed, absolutely, for elves to even have a chance. Otherwise the best place for an elf is absolutely not in the city at all, the odds are just far too stacked up against them:

We NEED a better rules on what is bad RP, help rules is horribly inadequate at the moment as is help roleplaying:
— There's a lot of situations that can be hard to place and especially not always clear for newer players. The issue there is that situations can then happen that GREATLY impact characters that people put a lot of effort into, while being something that doesn't affect the person that did it much - that disparity I think is what has also caused the dearth of aide players etc. A lot of the times these are unwritten rules that a new player could not have expected to know about:

⚫ Due to how the game mechanics can use keywords for The Way, don't refer to exact keywords when your character is speaking IC: For example when speaking to a Templar that "the rugged, unshorn man" stole from you: Don't say "the guy that looked unshorn" because there are many people in the game world that would fit that description, so it would not realistically work to pick out someone in a crowd or The Way. Instead say something like "The guy had a beard" (and any other details or clothing from their LOOK description).

• Similarly, if someone is wearing clothes that cover part of their body in the description (for example a mask, while their long description says their cheek has a tattoo), do not refer to the things that your character can't see. Armageddon does not have disguise code, you are expected to roleplay realistically what your character would know.



⚫ Don't use Contact to check if someone is online. Characters that are unavailable due to being offline is an OOC mechanic, and IC characters can be still contacted while asleep or working etc, so roleplay around that.

That kinda stuff. Things that help to clarify things for new people especially would be really good. There's way too many unwritten things, or things that the general public have said are bad RP but aren't told to newbies. Until we have that the game isn't really ready for advertising to a wider audience, because so much stuff is unwritten that it's hard to teach lots of people at once



⚫ Don't post things that people can use to identify other peoples' characters or your own character, the reason for this is to keep the sense of mystery and drama with the game's story, and protect players from OOC peer pressure or coercion:
• Don't post publicly about roles you are applying for or character applications - if you have a question, make a request on the website.
• Don't post comments, pictures, or videos that refer or allude to something that is currently happening or recently happened IC, for the obvious reason that it's often easy to narrow down who posted it.

[Lizzie]

Give the East side and West side a solid, lore-created reason to combine forces. A common enemy (the tunnel sludge gangs? Desert elves trying to get in from the shield wall? Smugglers who aren't Rinthis? Etc etc etc).  And create a new ALA out of the mess.

[tiny rainbow]

Yeah I also worked a lot with Allanak elf tribes over a lot of years, and the Templar-Guild link was just too often present and there was nothing really for them to get out of being independent so they didn't bother, and so it was just a case of the elves being repeatedly exterminated over the smallest of reasons - The Guild is probably the biggest problem, I would absolutely support merging east and west in to the Allanak resistance. There doesn't even need to be an external threat, they should be the ones that are against the robes, especially with how little Tuluk tends to do about Allanak in general.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I've always advocated that elves should be hirable by anyone other than most noble houses and the militias. At the lower tiers of even Noble Houses, elves should get let in the back door and get rank-locked.

It would help with the population of elves immensely, and there's nothing saying you can't keep treating elves like shit. One thing that I used to get a little irritated about was that if I treated elves like shit, I had too many (not all) humans telling me to chill. Sure, you might be a snowflake, but ... you, you and ... you? Just remember that 95% of humans dislike elves. Not even because they aren't humans, but because they ... they take your shit. They do. For real. Because they're elves! It's in their blood. They just do it!

But there's a lot of them. Hire them. You're a big-bad House. You can protect yourself from a couple of long-necks. They run fast too. Use those scrawny fucks.

[tiny rainbow]

It would take a lot of intrigue and excitement away if they were just human-lite, really, part of the fun is that they aren't part of the same structures and have their own things going on instead of being "house elves"

[Patuk]

I played one of the most well-known elves around Luir's for a while (I also tried Akai Sjir to see what the fuss was about and I can absolutely say there is a lot of hidden depths to them that might not be obvious from the outside, and that's how it should be, they are Tuluki after all) and I often had problems with even sponsored roles behaving in ways that were OOCly dubious. One memorable time someone even got up and started scanning and emoting looking around after the *OOC disconnect and reconnect message while hiding*, that was just terrible. Other times I was often contacted to check if I was hiding (before the change) and then later contacted just to see if am online at the time a lot, too. The Way absolutely was used in an OOC way a LOT of the time and this needs to be addressed, absolutely, for elves to even have a chance. Otherwise the best place for an elf is absolutely not in the city at all, the odds are just far too stacked up against them:

We NEED a better rules on what is bad RP, help rules is horribly inadequate at the moment as is help roleplaying:
— There's a lot of situations that can be hard to place and especially not always clear for newer players. The issue there is that situations can then happen that GREATLY impact characters that people put a lot of effort into, while being something that doesn't affect the person that did it much - that disparity I think is what has also caused the dearth of aide players etc. A lot of the times these are unwritten rules that a new player could not have expected to know about:

⚫ Due to how the game mechanics can use keywords for The Way, don't refer to exact keywords when your character is speaking IC: For example when speaking to a Templar that "the rugged, unshorn man" stole from you: Don't say "the guy that looked unshorn" because there are many people in the game world that would fit that description, so it would not realistically work to pick out someone in a crowd or The Way. Instead say something like "The guy had a beard" (and any other details or clothing from their LOOK description).

• Similarly, if someone is wearing clothes that cover part of their body in the description (for example a mask, while their long description says their cheek has a tattoo), do not refer to the things that your character can't see. Armageddon does not have disguise code, you are expected to roleplay realistically what your character would know.



⚫ Don't use Contact to check if someone is online. Characters that are unavailable due to being offline is an OOC mechanic, and IC characters can be still contacted while asleep or working etc, so roleplay around that.

That kinda stuff. Things that help to clarify things for new people especially would be really good. There's way too many unwritten things, or things that the general public have said are bad RP but aren't told to newbies. Until we have that the game isn't really ready for advertising to a wider audience, because so much stuff is unwritten that it's hard to teach lots of people at once



⚫ Don't post things that people can use to identify other peoples' characters or your own character, the reason for this is to keep the sense of mystery and drama with the game's story, and protect players from OOC peer pressure or coercion:
• Don't post publicly about roles you are applying for or character applications - if you have a question, make a request on the website.
• Don't post comments, pictures, or videos that refer or allude to something that is currently happening or recently happened IC, for the obvious reason that it's often easy to narrow down who posted it.

This is all fair and well, but for as long as staff viscerally don't want to be arbiters of roleplay it's also dead in the water.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

It would take a lot of intrigue and excitement away if they were just human-lite, really, part of the fun is that they aren't part of the same structures and have their own things going on instead of being "house elves"

I don't completely disagree with that, but then again, in a world where they were the second most populous species, they would realistically have more power than they do right now. They would have their own Noble Houses and high-profile clans and political presence. I've never thought that was very realistic either. But the world we have somehow has managed to exclude elves from all public-facing political power.

I absolutely wish that there was a elven noble House.

[tiny rainbow]

It's sort of funny but I think it's true really that the Sun Runners are that elven noble house, both in their beliefs and how they have links in both cities and Luir's, they have their own unique elven take on things in that they're not tied down and subject to the cities, they have a LOT going on with a lot of depth and rich history to their trade and diplomacy over the years, 90% of it player plots and actions too instead of how the Bashurit were forced on everybody through staff plots for example, one of the best things was to hear stories from other characters because just so much fun stories. I advocated for role calls to be held to encourage people OOCly to see that aspect that isn't really obvious to people who haven't already interacted with them or experienced for themselves, but we kept getting human merchant role calls over and over instead

[mansa]

https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/City%20Elf%20Roleplay


The elven mindset in the documents are:

* Pride.   
-> All elves find riding mounts to be a shameful act. 
-> This extends to boasting about feats and challenges.

What else does this mean?


* Tribal members first, outsiders second.
-> Loyalty to traditions of the tribe, including region territory.
-> Harm done to one member is considered done to all
-> -> But this can work both ways - being removed from the Tribe for causing trouble.
-> Loyalty tests for outsiders to join the tribe.

What else does this mean?


* Culture of Theft
-> Tests of Courage, not crimes
-> Similar to the concept of "Artful Deeds" in Tuluk.

What else does this mean?




The problem with city elves is that there is no tribes to join, so everybody needs to write their own tribe.

And when tribes form, they naturally turn into pvp tribes, since that is one of the core fundamental gameplay loops.  Or they get turned into pickpocket tribes, since the helpfiles focus on 3 things:
mounts, thieving, tribal groups

I once created a city elf artisan with the purpose of creating a city-elf tribe out of Morin's Village, since that area of the game was open but the soul was empty towards city elves - there should have been a tribe there that new players can join, but there was a lack of foresight in world design for elven players. It was supposed to be a group of city elves that focused on wood craft... You know, "wood elves".  They were designed that anyone could join.



Here's my suggestions:
a) There should be a focus on 'non-killing' of elves by other elves.  This should be seen as a terrible crime.  In Warfare between elves, wounding the other's pride should seem a worse punishment than killing.  That should be the focus.  Have the ability to scar another elf or cut their hair, force a tattoo on them, or something similar to that.

b) Every starting zone should have 2 tribal identities you can immediately join.
-> The problem becomes when you start randomly harming/killing people, and the players want to take revenge against you and your tribe, and the "virtual tribe" needs to take action to protect their own.
-> -> You can enforce this by saying if you join these tribes, you will never progress in rank with these tribes - and you will never be a rank that requires a response from the tribe - you're stuck in this tribe as a runner (with a cool ass hangout spot, and other perks of joining the default tribe)

c) Allow the Great Merchant Houses to hire city elves.  (Limit their rank and access)

d) Allow the Noble Houses to hire city elves.   (Limit their rank and access)

e) Allow the Citystate Militias to hire city elves.  (Limit their rank and access)

f) Give city elves another desire along the lines of Pride, much like Tuluk has in terms of "Artiful Deeds" -> extend that to crafting.

[Trevalyan]

First of all, I liked the elves in Tuluk. Maybe the city lost the knife-ears RP by not being against them more, but at least one 0-RP city elf absolutely nailed her role and made it viable for wilderness engagements. Meanwhile, when the Sjir FINALLY got going again, they were great about not being thieves, and people you could work with without being considered a fence for elven thieves. In fact, their commitment to art is exactly the kind of elven pride that Armageddon theoretically wants.

But the upcoming season is going to put that on pause for a LONG while, so who cares? In Allanak, you have to make a decent number of viable elf-related guilds without making them so powerful the templars are motivated to crack down. Ideally, the templars should be able to hire elves for assassinations or scouting if they're desperate. They should not want to be that desperate.

Of course, if you're going to pigeonhole elves into lone PVP roles involving killing or thievery, they'll continue to have a negative reception by the pbase and people won't want the role. In fact, the question should be what does staff think the problem is with the elves?

[CirclelessBard]

If elves really are the second-most populous race in Zalanthas, then it's pretty likely they're also the second-most populous race in the cities. If, despite making up almost half the population of a city, they are consistently sidelined and excluded from public life, unable to seek work in most "reputable" institutions, then at some point they probably would have made their own, in order to stand a chance against the institutions that oppress them.

They would probably create an "elven quarter" as an unofficial enclave in the lower-class neighborhood of the respective cities (Commoners' Quarter/Warrens). There would be old elven tribes with outsized influence over this quarter. There'd be a gang that functions as an unofficial militia within the quarter and is only barely tolerated by the official city militia because they don't really like patrolling the neighborhood unless absolutely necessary, giving the area a separate crimcode, perhaps one that ignores certain minor crimes unless inflicted on elves of some repute. They would have merchants that elves seek out for high-quality goods, favoring them over the Great Merchant Houses in some cases. Not every elf would live in the "elven quarter" as there would still be many elven tribes that would see it as too self-confining, but they would find integration with the rest of society relatively difficult and would probably be relegated to their city's lawless areas, still visiting the elven quarter on occasion for business or meeting contacts, feeling uncomfortable about it all the while.

The alternative to that is that society loosens up and starts to integrate elves into more aspects of the standard institutions, but it would be a dramatic shift that would require either a significant event that puts pressure on those institutions to relax their attitude towards elves, or some level of retconning of the current attitudes.

[Trevalyan]

They would probably create an "elven quarter" as an unofficial enclave in the lower-class neighborhood of the respective cities (Commoners' Quarter/Warrens). There would be old elven tribes with outsized influence over this quarter. There'd be a gang that functions as an unofficial militia within the quarter and is only barely tolerated by the official city militia because they don't really like patrolling the neighborhood unless absolutely necessary, giving the area a separate crimcode, perhaps one that ignores certain minor crimes unless inflicted on elves of some repute. They would have merchants that elves seek out for high-quality goods, favoring them over the Great Merchant Houses in some cases. Not every elf would live in the "elven quarter" as there would still be many elven tribes that would see it as too self-confining, but they would find integration with the rest of society relatively difficult and would probably be relegated to their city's lawless areas, still visiting the elven quarter on occasion for business or meeting contacts, feeling uncomfortable about it all the while.

That does sound like people I know. For their matter, their crafters and artists are so good that HUMANS seek them out on a regular basis.

[Riev]

Give all elves a racial crafting recipe:

craft plank black.dye 2.black.dye into several.obsidian.coins
you require a woodworking for that

and create a currency of wooden obsidian coins that ACT like coins (stacking wise) but no vendor will accept them.

[Lizzie]

If elves really are the second-most populous race in Zalanthas, then it's pretty likely they're also the second-most populous race in the cities. If, despite making up almost half the population of a city, they are consistently sidelined and excluded from public life, unable to seek work in most "reputable" institutions, then at some point they probably would have made their own, in order to stand a chance against the institutions that oppress them.

They would probably create an "elven quarter" as an unofficial enclave in the lower-class neighborhood of the respective cities (Commoners' Quarter/Warrens). There would be old elven tribes with outsized influence over this quarter. There'd be a gang that functions as an unofficial militia within the quarter and is only barely tolerated by the official city militia because they don't really like patrolling the neighborhood unless absolutely necessary, giving the area a separate crimcode, perhaps one that ignores certain minor crimes unless inflicted on elves of some repute. They would have merchants that elves seek out for high-quality goods, favoring them over the Great Merchant Houses in some cases. Not every elf would live in the "elven quarter" as there would still be many elven tribes that would see it as too self-confining, but they would find integration with the rest of society relatively difficult and would probably be relegated to their city's lawless areas, still visiting the elven quarter on occasion for business or meeting contacts, feeling uncomfortable about it all the while.

The alternative to that is that society loosens up and starts to integrate elves into more aspects of the standard institutions, but it would be a dramatic shift that would require either a significant event that puts pressure on those institutions to relax their attitude towards elves, or some level of retconning of the current attitudes.

There already is an elf-designated section of the Commoner's Quarter. It's the size of a desert elf campground, has a pretty interesting history, it has NPCs, and even vendors. It's also underutilized. It'd be great if people used it more, but they don't.  Just like the teahouse (which is only 2 rooms total including the locked back room) is interesting, has an interesting history, have npcs and vendors, and rarely gets any use.

[FantasyWriter]

Don't post things that people can use to identify other peoples' characters or your own character, the reason for this is to keep the sense of mystery and drama with the game's story, and protect players from OOC peer pressure or coercion:

I think the best way to fix this it to return to if someone contacts you, you get their sdesc unless they have an ability that prevents such.

[Nao]

I think elves are mostly fine. Yes, really. Please don't make them into sharp-eared humans.

They do need clans to be attractive for me to play and to do cool things in general.

BUT
I don't think app-in works very well for city-elf clans (or delves, but it's worse for city elves). These clans should be like the guild or the Crimson Wind and recruit ICly exclusively or almost exclusively. Apped-in characters that are fully trusted immediately don't work very well, especially if you may be up to something like elves often are. Some people app in and just start wrecking things. By the time you figure out that this PC who would have been exiled from the tribe years ago, if their existence had been non-virtual and they have behaved like this, really needs to be exiled, they've probably caused a whole lot of damage that makes things un-fun for everyone else that has to pick up the pieces.

The best city-elf play that I've seen was a long-running group that was not a coded tribe. Why?

• Trust is not automatic but needs to be earned. This is RP, provides opportunities for tests, betrayals, and filters out characters who are not a good fit or are likely to cause problems for the group.
• Playtimes need to match up at least partially, and you need to be at least somewhat active to be recruited - no more full clans that seem to be dead when you log on.

[Kiyetal]

Don't post things that people can use to identify other peoples' characters or your own character, the reason for this is to keep the sense of mystery and drama with the game's story, and protect players from OOC peer pressure or coercion:

I think the best way to fix this it to return to if someone contacts you, you get their sdesc unless they have an ability that prevents such.

Even though this isn't really c-elf focused, I've wanted the way to work this way for a long time.

I rallied for this during the contact changes awhile back, I was a firm believer that simply making it so that without the use of psionicist abilities everyone should see what sdesc contacts them. I saw only pros to a change like that, speeding up roleplay and saving time for both parties, removing any potential ooc advantage from the parties involved. If scary killer #73 wants to see if you're online, they're also providing their target with the equivalent information.

[Riev]

If elves really are the second-most populous race in Zalanthas, then it's pretty likely they're also the second-most populous race in the cities. If, despite making up almost half the population of a city, they are consistently sidelined and excluded from public life, unable to seek work in most "reputable" institutions, then at some point they probably would have made their own, in order to stand a chance against the institutions that oppress them.

They would probably create an "elven quarter" as an unofficial enclave in the lower-class neighborhood of the respective cities (Commoners' Quarter/Warrens). There would be old elven tribes with outsized influence over this quarter. There'd be a gang that functions as an unofficial militia within the quarter and is only barely tolerated by the official city militia because they don't really like patrolling the neighborhood unless absolutely necessary, giving the area a separate crimcode, perhaps one that ignores certain minor crimes unless inflicted on elves of some repute. They would have merchants that elves seek out for high-quality goods, favoring them over the Great Merchant Houses in some cases. Not every elf would live in the "elven quarter" as there would still be many elven tribes that would see it as too self-confining, but they would find integration with the rest of society relatively difficult and would probably be relegated to their city's lawless areas, still visiting the elven quarter on occasion for business or meeting contacts, feeling uncomfortable about it all the while.

The alternative to that is that society loosens up and starts to integrate elves into more aspects of the standard institutions, but it would be a dramatic shift that would require either a significant event that puts pressure on those institutions to relax their attitude towards elves, or some level of retconning of the current attitudes.

There already is an elf-designated section of the Commoner's Quarter. It's the size of a desert elf campground, has a pretty interesting history, it has NPCs, and even vendors. It's also underutilized. It'd be great if people used it more, but they don't.  Just like the teahouse (which is only 2 rooms total including the locked back room) is interesting, has an interesting history, have npcs and vendors, and rarely gets any use.

How might one access this interesting history? If underutilized and possibly mostly unknown, how can you get more players to spend time there?

Also that area doesn't let you spam kill NPCs for combat skillz so is it even really useful?

[Armaddict]

I will differ from some of the playerbase, for sure, but I believe that's expected behavior when asking for broad-spectrum feedback.

I wrote this post awhile back: https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,54201.msg1022100.html#msg1022100

It outlines some of the things I like and don't like about elves.  If you're looking to change city-elves, I'd try to double down on city-elven culture to make it actually present rather than perceived/thought-experimenty.  I'd give that culture strong enough fingers in reality to create actual boons to being a city-elf...but have it navigation-heavy as far as the balance between the two-culture problem of elves (which I think is one of the more fascinating parts of playing elves).

[Miradus]

One of the things I like best about city elves (rinther) is that a leader will emerge and put their own stamp on their crew. They have a main culture of a rinther elf criminal, and then a subculture that's unique to that crew.

I can play a rinther elf in one era and then come back a year later and play in another and have a completely different flavor.

Yet if I go play Soh now it's the same feel as it was in 2016 or whatever.

[Diesel]

I don't think that elves should be thieves inherently. I think we should retcon it and have it be a choice or even just a social construct within specific groups of elves, not something someone is born with and can't really choose. Most people don't roleplay muls, elves, breeds, HGs (slightly different) or with them properly anyway. They're polite and nice and joke and do everything else and I don't think it'll ever be fixed. I haven't seen anyone really go in on elves or breeds except maybe Templars, Nobles, and militia characters. Everyone else seems to want to treat them and breeds like anyone else. Socially anyway.

[Tuannon]

It isn't even a retcon, there ARE celfs in Nak who are not immediately pickpockets and swindlers, but they are low tier commoners who have a certain reputation and proclavity for being pickpockets and swindlers. I think keeping it kind of nebulous gives players more wiggle room to deal with Nakki celfs better.

[Dar]

One problem with Celves is that they are useless.

I don't mean weak, or harmless. They're not that. I mean useless for everything except the negative aspects.


Delves are useful to trade and deal with because they are a source of hides, pelts, poisons, and other resources from the territory that they covet.

Breeds are useful because they go out into the wilds and procure rare things on their lonesome that are useful in the cities.

Dwarves are useful because if shaped, picked, and synced with well, they are a backbone for whatever mechanism you use to advance your plots and ambitions.

HGs see above.


What are Celves useful for?  Their only strength is city strength. Which is either social, or destructive. If social is only intra-elven society, then it's reclusive and not prolific to the enjoyment of the game. And since they are lacking in elf only resources there is no point in intraspecies interaction.

If social power is across different species, then it encourages Celven to be accommodating and nice to humans. And since they are mostly useless and in fact damaging to deal with by humans, that means Celven's only thing to bring to the table is negative. As in, you gotta deal with celves if you don't want shit stolen from you, your car tires cut in the night. Which once again, pushes Celven to be consistently towards antagonism.

Which is fine. Antagonistic play is great. But it does reduce the choice of roles and personalities that you have for a Celf.


What I'd like to suggest is that Celves should be capable of something that's strictly celven and useful for others.

Maybe there is a resource that's difficult to get in the sewers? Something that's highly reliant on high agility that celves can get? Then again, sewers are wilderness area, so that too they are theoretically unsuited for.

Shalooonsh found a solution to this problem when Akai Sjir was made. He made them into Master Artisans and that tribe through truths and untruths made their goods favorable to purchase.

It would be better if we don't go that route for other Celven tribes.  Perhaps control over some specific fruit, or animal, or herbal component, or ... flash powder manufacturer arghem, Or whatever.

[betweenford]

An obvious solution for Allanak centric issues would be to load in a relatively inoffensive group of city elves who simply exist and survive, focusing less on pickpocketing and more interesting forms of "theft"; like the Zeif Akir rooftop elves.

From my current understanding of the tribe without docs, and pretty much just the way their NPCs and camp are built: They somewhat tolerate half-elves being amongst their blooded kin, have an insectine theme to what interests and entertains them according to shared Arabet/ZA discuss text, openly regard the Allanaki soldiers with measured disdain, run bugfights with skewed results to steal bet-money, have a fully built tattoo artist with like 20+ tattoos, run a bug-shop, run an elven tea-tent, and mostly try to stay outwardly within the bounds of the law while occasionally committing crimes that don't result in anyone getting caught.

However, basically any attempt to make the Zeif Akir playable has been met with opposition or disinterest from staff despite being effectively a partially coded clan with some amount of history behind it, despite clamoring from players for a southside Allanaki Elven clan.

To my understanding, alot of city elf groups rarely feel like a tribe that is set within the bounds of walls trying to survive and pull resources while minimizing risk to their tribe; they just feel like organizations within the city trying to pull quotas, kill people, and rob people while bringing in as much negative attention back to their tribe as possible.

[flurry]

I think I've only played one c-elf, and the reason for my lack of interest has been how limited they seem to be. Specifically, if you put any value on social role-play, it seems like you're going to have a tough time enjoying a c-elf role most of the time.

As others have suggested, giving c-elves and humans more reason to interact in ways that aren't antagonistic would help. That would likely require some c-elf opportunities that aren't criminal. The Akai Sjir are a good model for this.

One idea that came to mind is something like a coded tavern, in Allanak proper, operated by a c-elven tribe open to players.

[betweenford]

One idea that came to mind is something like a coded tavern, in Allanak proper, operated by a c-elven tribe open to players.

Like... the Zeif Akir tea-tent?

[Lotion]

One idea that came to mind is something like a coded tavern, in Allanak proper, operated by a c-elven tribe open to players.

Like... the Zeif Akir tea-tent?

you need climb to get there and even then i swear it's impossible to find

[betweenford]

One idea that came to mind is something like a coded tavern, in Allanak proper, operated by a c-elven tribe open to players.

Like... the Zeif Akir tea-tent?

you need climb to get there and even then i swear it's impossible to find

If you approach from Wall Road, and head into their bug-shop, there's a ladder and a hatch anyone can use to get into the tea-tent.

From the tea-tent, anyone can type "leave" to enter the camp proper. No climbing required.

However it's 10000000x more elven to climb in and risk cracking your neck to enter the camp every time, I don't make the rules.

[dumbstruck]

Nix the bit about all elves being theives.

That's written like human propaganda.

You want to make elves more playable, literally just take out the bit that all elves are thieves and then race locking them to thieves, warriors, and crafters (basically).

Unless an elf is breaking with one of the biggest throughlines in their documentation, they are actively working against you (to steal from you) the whole time you're around them.

Only an idiot (human) would want to hang around with someone knowing that the entire point of the interaction is to steal from you, get one over, etc, with every single elf, why in god's name would they not be rooted out and killed long before they had the chance to become so prolific?

It literally makes no sense.

[betweenford]

The thing about all elves being thieves is a heavy flanderization of elven documentation in Dark Sun. In Dark Sun, elves simply don't have morals when it comes to people outside of their tribe as a default and are willing to do anything to a person as convenient.

On the flipside, they conduct themselves with "honor" when it comes to their tribemates as well as those they've found to be trustworthy; which is where the Elven Tests of Trust derives from in Arm.

[flurry]

One idea that came to mind is something like a coded tavern, in Allanak proper, operated by a c-elven tribe open to players.

Like... the Zeif Akir tea-tent?

Good to know! More stuff like this would be great.

[ShaiHulud]

I won't offer personal experience, because it has been more than I can remember. But the suggestion before by Mansa and maybe others is my feeling that I'd like to add to. Have two tribes to join at creation, and then also unclanned. I think one rinthi-centric, the other nakki-commons based. Elf social easier, elf social more difficult. Define the two, and have each a tribe more prevalent in each area. But like all other tribes, there are pairings that connect them in alliances. Also, more city elf and desert elf interconnections. Relying on each other more for info/supplies/raiding/taking from those who can be exploited.

[Bogre]

I think the coded running should be a little more equitable between city elves and desert elves. City elves should probably have less stamina but over short distances they shouldn't have all of that eaten up by running outdoors. Something to keep them a little less crippled outside, which allows them to actually do stuff in clans / etc than just being the urban thieves who are always antagonist cause all they do is assassin, thief, or burglarize. More opportunities for roles / actions in game = more avenues for roleplay.

I think its a huge downside is that whichever PC city elf you see, you can just assume they're a criminal, and any desert elf PC you see, can be a potential trade partner / source of news / etc / if they don't raid your face. The feeling should be -similar-. Meeting a c-elf should be a potential trade partner / source of city gossip / way to get stuff done quietly / if they don't steal your coinpurse.

[Roon]

Aside from the inconsistent availability of c-elf tribes and the fact that most players don't enjoy playing a race that is universally despised, elves have one problem in particular: combat without high strength is terrible. This goes for any character, not just elves, but elves can't get high strength at all so they're all saddled with that problem. If we allow ourselves the use of conventional gaming terminology, city elves are by far the most underpowered race in this game. In a game with permadeath and FFA PvP, that's really unappealing. Enjoy those 97 hit points with an 'extremely good' endurance roll, boyo. The race is fucked code-wise.

The combat overhaul did technically make the imbalance smaller, but it didn't actually change the fact that combat feels like shit without high strength, and agility doesn't do enough to compensate. And where d-elves (aside from their much better stats) can use archery and have easier access to poisons, as well as sneak and hide as innate racial skills which lets you pick classes that don't give it, it's a lot more awkward for c-elves to make use of the things that can compensate for a lack of strength. You don't have access to raider and scout, plus using a bow in the city is just weird, and crossbows are garbage. And if you want to use poisons, you're almost completely dependent on people to bring you a steady supply. You try finding that as a c-elf. Sometimes there literally just isn't anybody who's willing to do that for you because your subspecies is universally hated and you have limited clout because your race is really, really underpowered.

If a c-elf wants to be a threat code-wise, they're pretty much pigeonholed into backstab, and the recent weapon rebalancing overhaul brought an enormous nerf to backstab because it got rid of the overpowered mainstays that everyone knew about and used. You don't just go and get an 'amazing' stabbing weapon. I'm not even sure any exist. The best I've seen - and what Salarr will bring you if you ask them for the best stabbing weapon they can make - is 'good' quality. Compared to the overpowered hawk-halfswords and whatnot from the past, that's something like a 30% reduction in the power of the backstab skill. And for a race that already struggled to be truly deadly before, it's a huge blow. You took away the one thing c-elves could do well. Backstab is junk now.

Elven agility also makes it way harder to raise combat skills, and while d-elves have the entire gameworld at their disposal to overcome this obstacle, c-elves generally don't. By and large, they're limited to shitty sparring with other low-skill elves, or grinding on rinth NPCs, which is totally worthless when you start with the kind of bonuses that elven agility gives, so you're almost stuck at your starting level. They can also join the Byn, but the life of a Byn elf is only marginally more enjoyable than a root canal, both because it sucks mechanically for you and because it's annoying to be such an obvious burden for all the other players in the clan. You just know they all wish you weren't there.

So what are c-elves good at? Stealth and theft. That's nice and all, but it's really quite limited what you can do with these as the primary coded foundation for a character. Ever since the introduction of the new classes, the huge influx of miscreants forced people to stop carrying anything worth stealing because it was guaranteed to be gone within 48 hours. Stealth is only useful if there's people around and a reason to remain unseen, and the steady decline in player numbers in the last half-dozen years is an indirect nerf to stealth. Who are you hiding from?

Aside from that, c-elves don't really have any advantages. Information? Nah, not really. Any advantage they may have to their perception skills is too small to make a real difference, and it doesn't come close to the disadvantage that being universally scorned presents you with when it comes to gathering information. Trading? Nope, no meaningful advantages there. I guess c-elves do get like journeyman haggle as a racial skill, but that's nothing.

While some players will occasionally give the c-elf role a whirl, they always run into the same problems. 1) You suck at combat and it's almost impossible to be deadly unless you have magic. 2) It's really quite hard to find roleplay when the lore mandates that almost everyone either avoid or oppose you. 3) You have almost no clans available to you. 4) The rinth, which is the go-to environment for city elves, has barely changed in twenty years and is a cardboard facade with no built-in gameplay besides the mindless slaughter of low-skill NPCs.

It can be interesting to try the role, and some like to attempt to overcome these obstacles and see how far they can make it, but the self-evident fact is that almost nobody cares for it and it's nearly unheard-of for a c-elf character to become prominent and long-lived enough to really matter in the grand scheme of things. It happens so rarely that it plays no part in the fabric of the game. You can go a whole year without any c-elf character doing anything of note or living long enough to reach any level of notoriety. That's because the race is saddled with huge disadvantages both in terms of the code and the game's lore.

I'm prepared to say that the c-elf race was a mistake all along. Elves should all have been tribal desert-runners. Even setting aside the age-old mystery of why city elves would refuse to ride out of pride in an ability that they don't have, it has just always been clear that there's not enough players who want to play the race to keep enough of an ecosystem going for them. And as the playerbase shrunk, this only got worse.

When seasons bring a timeskip, I suggest saying that city elves didn't stand the test of time, and the race now consists exclusively of desert tribes. That'll make them more enigmatic and interesting, and should also bolster the numbers of these tribes--because ever since the ancient heyday of Blackwing, there just haven't been enough elf players to suffice when the race is split into two demographics that have practically nothing to do with each other, and then further split into different clans that may be enemies, or at least total strangers. We'd need 100+ player peaks for that to make sense.

[betweenford]

It's kinda funny that you mention the combat overhaul because Halaster semi-recently found a spot in code where Strength was impacting hit-chance and some other stuff on a scale that could be analogous to the elven agility bonus for some races; and he decided not to remove it and insisted it didn't impact much despite my insistence that in some instances it was equivalent to the elven one and just completely invalidated the elven racial perks.

Removing inadvertent bonuses from stats that shouldn't have them would probably make elf play feel alot better.

edit: I do believe he plans on removing that inadvertent bonus eventually, but seemingly it's low priority. Probably because removing the bonus might kill HG players when they try to fight a rantarri or something at a level they previously could.

[Roon]

Yes, those who have looked at the various code-leaks (mea culpa!) know that strength was always infinitely superior to all other stats by such a margin that one must laugh at anyone who would think to suggest otherwise.

The big difference is that where agility helps you land hits more often, strength may do the same but also let you actually do meaningful damage with your hits. Let's lift the veil: skills don't really affect your damage. It doesn't matter how skilled you are, your damage is a product, almost exclusively, of the dice on your weapon and then your strength stat. It was always worthless for elves to have that tidy agility bonus. It just staunched their skill growth while other races caught up and had the strength to do damage that matters. Elves were always shit.

Now, there was a time when we had overpowered weapons. With these, an elf might simulate, say, 'extremely good' human strength, in the case of a certain Sun Runner club. That time is in the past. Now, all elves are subject to the same ill-advised weapon rebalancing that says you only get to be a threat in melee combat if you have high strength or a weapon that generally can't be obtained through any real venues of roleplay.

As such, elves suck. We can sit here and pretend that you can get ever so much done with your roleplay, and maybe you're just not good enough at the game if you rely on the coded faculties of your character, but we'd be listening to fools if we went down that route. Anyone who knows how this game works knows that outside of sponsored roles, it takes coded force-multipliers to get anything done. And elves - city elves in particular, but also elves in general - just haven't had that since the silly days of yore when they could run around with 2d4+3 Sun Runner clubs.

[Kavrick]

Pretty much all races except humans have been written into a corner were it's almost mandatory that you play said race as a stereotype. And even if you try to break from that stereotype, the world won't really enable it. I.E not even being able to attempt to join anything but the Byn or Kurac.

Generally the enforced racism has always been a pretty sour point for the game. It makes things incredibly monotonous with how interactions play out. "Ew breed" "ew elf" "annoying dwarf" is generally the extent I see of any racial dynamic without any nuance. This also means that if you play anything but a human, you're also pretty massively limited with what you can do rp-wise. In fact, I can't even count how many times people have told me not to play breeds or city elves and just play humans so I can actually be included in the game. It really sucks for the diversity of RP.

[Lotion]

the baked in setting racism is super wack and is one of the major reasons i choose not to tell people very much about this game, as it is not something I am proud of

[Kavrick]

the baked in setting racism is super wack and is one of the major reasons i choose not to tell people very much about this game, as it is not something I am proud of

After going back and actually reading up on a lot of Dark Sun lore, I actually cannot fathom why the racism has been dialed up so high and why a lot of nuance has been ripped out of different races.

Dwarves have probably been done the dirtiest out of all races in Armageddon. In Dark Sun. Dwarves have their own settlements, are extremely family-minded with a big point of creating 'clans' around their family where their wealth is always passed on to their children, creating long legacies. Dwarves are also supposed to have a decent foothold in the tablelands with several villages there but that's also been ripped out of the game. Dwarves have been degenerated into 'piss-drinking slave race with no culture' which is such a waste of an entire race considering the limited amount of races Armageddon has.

[betweenford]

the baked in setting racism is super wack and is one of the major reasons i choose not to tell people very much about this game, as it is not something I am proud of

After going back and actually reading up on a lot of Dark Sun lore, I actually cannot fathom why the racism has been dialed up so high and why a lot of nuance has been ripped out of different races.

Dwarves have probably been done the dirtiest out of all races in Armageddon. In Dark Sun. Dwarves have their own settlements, are extremely family-minded with a big point of creating 'clans' around their family where their wealth is always passed on to their children, creating long legacies. Dwarves are also supposed to have a decent foothold in the tablelands with several villages there but that's also been ripped out of the game. Dwarves have been degenerated into 'piss-drinking slave race with no culture' which is such a waste of an entire race considering the limited amount of races Armageddon has.

Their focuses are done pretty dirty too, in Arm.

They're also one of the most inclusive races on Athas, harboring no ill thoughts towards half-elves (who dont experience much racism in the first place).

At least while in Dark Sun, Elves reinforced their stereotype every so often; they were also absolute pictures of honor whenever they found themselves able to well and truly trust someone.

[Fredd]

Letting elves play in clans, IE: becoming Aides and such would probably make more people willing to play them.
 
An elf aide that trusts their noble could get up to a lot of interesting stuff IMHO.
Legit the enforced racism stops me from playing anything but humans, due to the roles I like to play.

[zilcho]

I feel like the baked-in racism towards Elves was a better breeding ground for interactions back when the game had a higher number of players. That meant you and your elf buddies could make that one fucking prick in the Gaj pay.

Going into the gaj as with my ranger who was the lone mundane human in the room too often and getting accosted with cheerful RP from a pair of gemmed and your only alternative for a conversation is an elf with a tumor or something was not as much fun to navigate when I was actually started playing again in late Nov.


The answer shouldn't have been "have less elves" or "have less gemmed" it should have been "generate social change via an HRPT that would force elves and gemmed to be accepted by humans because the Vong are the greater threat." or something like that. Elven racism was an artifact of a time when an RPI could have 60+ players on your average Tuesday.

[Tuannon]

It's not racism.. While elves are descended from halflings like everyone else (who matter), they are suitably different.

And I'm not sure it's the elf way to just beat people up for saying ignorant things to you, rob them, make them look like idiots and enrich your crew maybe, but beating them up is the same level of crude that round ears who can't run across the bazaar without tripping over something exhibit.

This scenario is of course under normal circumstances.

[CirclelessBard]

While the discussion about races in the game's setting is interesting and valuable feedback for the game, please try to adhere to the rules and keep the discussion on-topic. If you'd like to continue discussing races in the game's setting in a general sense, please make a new thread. This thread should pertain more specifically to feedback on city elves. Thanks, everyone!

[Kavrick]

I honestly struggle to see how talking about the racism dynamics in the game isnt on topic for the question of "what would make city elves more appealing to play." Racism in the game is a big factor for what races people play, including, or even especially city elves.

Elves in general, counter to their dark sun lore have been written into a corner of only really being able to stick to their tribe. This means no matter what you do, you're an outsider to everyone who's not in your tribe. And this is even enforced with "no elves" policies that exist in the majority of factions.

City elves are basically forced to either play a Byn training dummy or a criminal. No one will trust them because of the ironically criminal use of "all X are/do/like/value Y" in the racial documents and are excluded from playing more benevolent roles.

Sadly I don't see the issue with the racial writing going away. Armageddon has shown time and time again that they're extremely hesitant to change something from how it was 20 years ago. The funny thing is, it's not even a product of it's time, because as mentioned before, the elves in the Dark Sun writing have far more wiggle room for nuance and aren't branded with "all elves like to steal" which in my opinion is the biggest sin in the writing of the race.

[Kavrick]

Also on a completely unrelated note. I shouldn't need to point out that there is STILL no southern tribe for city elves... A race which is incredibly tribe-based. That's probably a pretty massive factor I to why people might not be playing them.

[Tuannon]

Racism is more along the lines of I dunno.. elves with blonde hair and purple uWu eyes hating on elves with dusky complexion. Nitpick aside, I think city elves need to be elevated out of the gross stereotypes commonfolk have for them.

Namely, they are either criminal rooftop elves or east side (of the 'rinth) elves. In Allanak I think Jal or the GMHs may hire them as discussed above, I doubt a top tier of His Nine would, but Jal certainly as they already hire gross dorfs and have a thing (it may have been a PC originated idea mind you) for building trust as some of the things the swabs get up to are really sketchy/dangerous.

I think I already mentioned it, so I'm going to stop beating the dead horse I suppose.

[Lizzie]

First off, I also don't like tossing the term "racism" around. It reeks of real-world influence, and this is a fantasy game.  We're not dealing with Inuit vs. Sudanese. Both of those are human, not "humanoid."  In the game, there aren't multiple types of humans. There are humans, and there are elves, dwarves, etc. etc. They're all humanoid, but only one set is human.

I think we need to take the real-world sensitivity of actual real-world racism out of the equation completely. If we take the lore-written background out of city elves, then all that's left is tall skinny humans with pointy ears. I think people need to stop trying to humanize all the races of Armageddon. Only humans are human, in this game. It's like y'all are trying to put an arctic fox, a chihuahua, and a jakhal in the same cage and expecting them to all enjoy each others' existence or something. It's very weird. Yes, they're all canines. But they are not similar. They have completely different environments, different breeding habits, different hunting techniques, different relationships with other species.

If no one wants to play an elf, then make them virtual and NPCs, like gith and raptors. Or do something to make them extinct. But that would also mean no more half-elves.

[mansa]

Hi,

Just a friendly reminder:

Don't tell other community members that their posts and their ideas are "adding nothing to the conversation". 

Each person here should be able to share their ideas without someone else telling them they are wrong and useless.

[Dar]

Sadly I don't see the issue with the racial writing going away. Armageddon has shown time and time again that they're extremely hesitant to change something from how it was 20 years ago. The funny thing is, it's not even a product of it's time, because as mentioned before, the elves in the Dark Sun writing have far more wiggle room for nuance and aren't branded with "all elves like to steal" which in my opinion is the biggest sin in the writing of the race.

I sure hope it won't go away. I barely if ever played Sun Runners (The nobles of the Sands), because I like Elves for their option of playing an underdog. I like that they're persecuted and have a tough life. It is a role that I enjoy playing. I just would prefer for there to be some form of purpose and reasoning for their survival, despite the antagonism that they're incurring inside the cities.

[Kavrick]

because I like Elves for their option of playing an underdog. I like that they're persecuted and have a tough life.

Removing mandatory racism wouldn't make it so you can no longer play underdogs. Also elves aren't really underdogs? In lots of areas of the game they're the dominant race so I don't completely understand this. A good example is the Two Moons tribe, they're completely the underdog among desert elves due to their relationship with Allanak, and in return, they're actually held in higher regard by humans. You don't need racism to have underdogs.

[FamousAmos]

A good example is the Two Moons tribe, they're completely the underdog among desert elves due to their relationship with Allanak, and in return, they're actually held in higher regard by humans.

I agree to disagree with that statement. Just because the Templarate has some control over these Two Moons it doesn't mean they're automatically trusted, let alone being regarded respectfully.

Now, if a Two Moon in question perhaps did some in game things, in example saving an Allanaki or 2 from imminent death, their personal regard might elevate in some PC's eyes.

But elves will be elves, as is expected of them.

[Kavrick]

I agree to disagree with that statement. Just because the Templarate has some control over these Two Moons it doesn't mean they're automatically trusted, let alone being regarded respectfully.

I didn't say they were automatically trusted, I said they were held in 'higher regard', rather than 'high regard'. As in 'higher regard when compared to other elves', which is completely true.

[betweenford]

First off, I also don't like tossing the term "racism" around. It reeks of real-world influence, and this is a fantasy game.  We're not dealing with Inuit vs. Sudanese. Both of those are human, not "humanoid."  In the game, there aren't multiple types of humans. There are humans, and there are elves, dwarves, etc. etc. They're all humanoid, but only one set is human.

I think we need to take the real-world sensitivity of actual real-world racism out of the equation completely. If we take the lore-written background out of city elves, then all that's left is tall skinny humans with pointy ears. I think people need to stop trying to humanize all the races of Armageddon. Only humans are human, in this game. It's like y'all are trying to put an arctic fox, a chihuahua, and a jakhal in the same cage and expecting them to all enjoy each others' existence or something. It's very weird. Yes, they're all canines. But they are not similar. They have completely different environments, different breeding habits, different hunting techniques, different relationships with other species.

If no one wants to play an elf, then make them virtual and NPCs, like gith and raptors. Or do something to make them extinct. But that would also mean no more half-elves.

This post shows that you do not understand the source material for the game very well, nor the "distrust" around elves or half elves or their various characteristics.

In many ways, your understanding of how people should treat elves and half elves echoes real life racism more than anything Dark Sun or Armageddon intended.

EDIT: because the mod team insists I add some clarification:
Half Elves and Elves within Armageddonmud feature some pretty heavy flanderization compared to their original depiction within Dark Sun. Half elves are not a product of rape in Dark Sun for example, and originally there was no mention of this in Arm either until like ten years ago or whatever.

Lizzie makes the comparison that all of these humanoids are at their core "not human", when in their depictions, when practically every humanoid race except for the Thri-Kreen/Mantis are supposed to be humanlike and empathetic in many ways except a handful. Every one of the character-playable races in DarkSun(except Half-Giant and Mantis) are very much capable in seeing each other as empathetic thinking creatures, breeding with them, and getting along.  Literally all of the PC races in the tabletop are humanized except for the Thri-Kreen, who are literal bugs with sapient-humanoid characteristics and all that alien-thought-processes entail.

Elven "thievery" isn't at the core of their identity, elven Honor is. Removing attributes like making all elves NOT thieves doesn't detract from their "humanization" because they're already quirky tall humans with an especially weird system of culture. The docs on elven thievery are derived from a few lines and paragraphs in elven honor. The effective gist of it all is the same as "all elves are thieves" in a way, elves are extremely capricious and cruel to those who are outside of their trusted circle, because anyone they cannot trust is not afforded a lick of honor or a second thought to any immoral acts.

In much the same way, elves declining animal transport is decently flanderized from the tabletop, as well as the relevant statblocks of various mounts invalidating in some ways the primary abilities of the elven race. They see themselves as better than any sort of animal transport and often magical transport because their legs are better than animal or magickal transport. They can run 30-50 miles per day without additional exertion while kanks and inixes can only do like 15 miles a day. They can also shamelessly ride mounts if they're infirm.

Elves find employment in the armies of city states, they mingle with mercenaries, they trade regularly with humans just as much as they steal, raid, and kill. Humans are ironically, as stated in the rulebook, tolerant of all the other races. They see pretty much no issues with dealing with elves or half elves; but typically see them as strangers they'd never accept into their clan, hearth, or home.

Half elves are a product of Elven Abandonment because they physically cannot meet the demands of an elven tribes' nomadic lifestyle (running fifty miles a day). Elves and humans can and do find half-elves and each other to be mistakeable for each other at a glance and mingle enough to be seen as potential mates for a tryst, though only the especially cruel of any elf or human group enact any cruelty to half-elves; and those groups literally act cruel to anyone who is weaker than them in-setting.  Their intolerance is one born of necessity for elves, because they can't run as fast for as long as an elf due to their human ancestry.

[Dar]

because I like Elves for their option of playing an underdog. I like that they're persecuted and have a tough life.

Removing mandatory racism wouldn't make it so you can no longer play underdogs. Also elves aren't really underdogs? In lots of areas of the game they're the dominant race so I don't completely understand this. A good example is the Two Moons tribe, they're completely the underdog among desert elves due to their relationship with Allanak, and in return, they're actually held in higher regard by humans. You don't need racism to have underdogs.

Really? 


Because whenever I play a breed that is useful and affective, enough people discard racism and value my good will over the good will of noble aides and sometimes nobles themselves. 

Racism is irrational. Racism, ignorance, and fear are one of very few methods of keeping roles that ment to be socially lower rung (mages, breed grabbers,  crime immune merchant celves) to be actually lower rung.

Remove irrationality and nobility and their aides lose their role positions in the social hierarchy. 

[Lizzie]

References to Dark Sun and tabletop are totally lost on me, since I've never played either and haven't ever read any Dark Sun material.  So it seems like someone is reading into what I say, some perspective I'm not capable of having.

Elves, half-elves, humans, dwarves, gith, half-giants, and muls are all humanoids. But only humans are human.

From the documentation - elves have "stealing" practically ingrained in their biological makeup. A con, a scam, burglary, robbery, raiding, pickpocketing - it's part of what makes them elves.

Other humanoids might do these things, but other humanoids aren't DESIGNED to do these things, and the fact that they do these things isn't built into their documentation.

Just like half-giants are all stupid. Dwarves can be stupid too, but stupidity isn't part of their documentation.  For muls, it's even more profound - their rage against their own existence is hard-coded into their combat events.  Other races might feel rage, and half-elves are even known to have perpetual angst. But only muls are documented to fly into fits of violent, uncontrollable rage.

The thing that makes elves elves, and not tall skinny humans with pointy ears, is this whole completely foreign concept that their whole existence revolves around a pride in being able to "put one over" on others.  If you take that away, then yeah - they're just tall skinny humans with pointy ears. No need for them to exist as a separate race at all.

[betweenford]

References to Dark Sun and tabletop are totally lost on me, since I've never played either and haven't ever read any Dark Sun material.  So it seems like someone is reading into what I say, some perspective I'm not capable of having.

The gist of it is that your perspective on elven racism is incongruous with arm and Dark Sun; and overinflated for what the level of xenophobia, mistrust, and inferiority that is portrayed in the docs.

[betweenford]

From the documentation - elves have "stealing" ingrained in their biological makeup. A con, a scam, burglary, robbery, raiding, pickpocketing - it's part of what makes them elves.

Other humanoids might do these things, but other humanoids aren't DESIGNED to do these things, and the fact that they do these things isn't built into their documentation.

It is cultural, not biological. Please re-read elven documentation.

https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/City%20Elf%20Roleplay

The desert elf helpfile can also be referenced. All elves are thieves not out of some biological dependency or quirk; it's a matter of pride, and doubly reinforced by the lack of honor afforded to those outside of the tribe.

Both helpfiles as well as the documentation surrounding elves is derived from the Dark Sun AD&D campaign rule book. I suggest you give it a read for additional perspective.

[Lizzie]

I added the word "practically" to my post, because I realized that I had omitted it. I added it apparently while you were typing your response. Doesn't change things - stealing is part of what makes elves - elves. That's my point, it's what I said in my previous posts, and nothing you say contradicts it. And no I'm not interested in Dark Sun, or AD&D.

[Kavrick]

This is gonna sound very catty but. If elves aren't elves if you removed the part about them all being obsessed with thievery, maybe the writing could use more nuance and attention.

[Roon]

It isn't necessarily centered around the manual act of picking pockets. Elves have a cultural need to get one over on outsiders. This can be conning them, stealing from them, testing them to see if they'll do what you want them to do, and probably all manner of similar mischief. It's just that actual theft is the only one for which there's coded support, so it was always going to be the most prominent one. With coded theft, you don't have to get someone to play along with your scheme, so you don't rely on players being good sports. You can let the code decide.

I figure it's a result of the fact that elves were once a dominant race in the world but was surpassed by humans once sorcerer-kings and cities came about. The 'theft gene' is like a "fuck you" to civilization, which has just happened to morph into a view that extends to anyone outside of their tribe. I don't think it's necessarry to consider it analogous to real-world racism. It's an actual reality of Zalanthas that elves will screw you over if they see the chance, so the cultural aversion to them is a matter of self-preservation based on actual real necessity, not misguided and baseless hate.

It's a fantasy world. Animosity between races is allowed. In this case, it's very clear why the animosity exists. These races have been at odds for millennia and it's simply how Zalanthas is. We're not better served doing away with that for the sake of living up to some modern-day real-world ideals of equality. It reeks of faux-woke talk, and while I'm a staunch leftist, it leaves me wondering if the next step is to equate the hatred of magick to the struggles of the LGBTQ movement. Gotta say I'd prefer if all of that stayed out of the game.

The Zalanthan aversion to elves is not "racism" in a modern sense, it's protecting oneself against hostility and robbery, and it's necessary lore-wise. When watching Game of Thrones, did you find that the Westerosi stance towards wildlings invoked feelings of Jim Crow racism? Or was it just how people in a low-information society needed to act in order to keep themselves safe? The portrayal of conflict between races in a fantasy game does not hold back equality in our real world, so I don't see a need to fret about it so much. There just need to be more elf players so they aren't a tiny minority, and that's accomplished by making the elf race(s) more appealing through coded improvements and better clan availability. City elf tribes in particular have always been woefully neglected.

[roughneck]

If city elves had simple yet flexible coded clan-spaces the way that desert elves do, they would be much more playable and enjoyable. It would provide depth to the tribal nature of celves, and provide deeper consequence to conflict with other clans, because now the elven PC would have a tribe to protect and worry about, and elders to answer to. Risk is less risky when it's only your own neck on the line.

[Lizzie]

It's a fantasy world. Animosity between races is allowed. In this case, it's very clear why the animosity exists. These races have been at odds for millennia and it's simply how Zalanthas is. We're not better served doing away with that for the sake of living up to some modern-day real-world ideals of equality. It reeks of faux-woke talk, and while I'm a staunch leftist, it leaves me wondering if the next step is to equate the hatred of magick to the struggles of the LGBTQ movement. Gotta say I'd prefer if all of that stayed out of the game.

The Zalanthan aversion to elves is not "racism" in a modern sense, it's protecting oneself against hostility and robbery, and it's necessary lore-wise. When watching Game of Thrones, did you find that the Westerosi stance towards wildlings invoked feelings of Jim Crow racism? Or was it just how people in a low-information society needed to act in order to keep themselves safe? The portrayal of conflict between races in a fantasy game does not hold back equality in our real world, so I don't see a need to fret about it so much. There just need to be more elf players so they aren't a tiny minority, and that's accomplished by making the elf race(s) more appealing through coded improvements and better clan availability. City elf tribes in particular have always been woefully neglected.

This is exactly my point, thank you for expressing it further.

[Dar]

If city elves had simple yet flexible coded clan-spaces the way that desert elves do, they would be much more playable and enjoyable. It would provide depth to the tribal nature of celves, and provide deeper consequence to conflict with other clans, because now the elven PC would have a tribe to protect and worry about, and elders to answer to. Risk is less risky when it's only your own neck on the line.

The problem with that is that it makes elves even more risk averse and encourages peaceful interaction with humans. Something that thematically should not be paramount to an elf.

If you give celves a tribe. Then you gotta give them a territory and enough virtual, social, and coded power to be able to protect themselves.

It's easy for delves to have a tribe and a camp, because they're in the middle of bumfuck nowhere and positioned in territory they are well suited for.


For Celves. Their territory is the city. And they're unable to leave. Which means whether it's southside, or east side. A single Templar can wipe them out.

[Dar]

If city elves had simple yet flexible coded clan-spaces the way that desert elves do, they would be much more playable and enjoyable. It would provide depth to the tribal nature of celves, and provide deeper consequence to conflict with other clans, because now the elven PC would have a tribe to protect and worry about, and elders to answer to. Risk is less risky when it's only your own neck on the line.

The problem with that is that it makes elves even more risk averse and encourages peaceful interaction with humans. Something that thematically should not be paramount to an elf.

If you give celves a tribe. Then you gotta give them a territory and enough virtual, social, and coded power to be able to protect themselves.

It's easy for delves to have a tribe and a camp, because they're in the middle of bumfuck nowhere and positioned in territory they are well suited for.


For Celves. Their territory is the city. And they're unable to leave. Which means whether it's southside, or east side. A single Templar can wipe them out.

When I was working towards the creation of RF camp. The staffer over Delves at the time told me. If RF get a camp, they will become extinct soon after. Because their culture encourages creation of enemies and the camp is a good target.  The 'soon after' took awhile, but guess whaaaaaaat.

[Bushranger]

Yeah I also worked a lot with Allanak elf tribes over a lot of years, and the Templar-Guild link was just too often present and there was nothing really for them to get out of being independent so they didn't bother, and so it was just a case of the elves being repeatedly exterminated over the smallest of reasons - The Guild is probably the biggest problem, I would absolutely support merging east and west in to the Allanak resistance. There doesn't even need to be an external threat, they should be the ones that are against the robes, especially with how little Tuluk tends to do about Allanak in general.

I really like this.  Even inside the Guild different crews can work against each other while both working for the Guild leadership.  The West side and East side should come together to keep the Labyrinth for themselves and maintain their work in greater Allanak from being poached by outsiders.  Have the Guild leadership and the 'Rinth elves leadership come together in a Commission to sit down and prevent each sides from constantly killing each other.  They can still compete to some degree but having them work together when needed would be a welcome change.

There has been a big history of rivalry between the West and East but remember what Slim Charles said: "The thing about the old days, They the old days."

[Dresan]

Let me preface this by saying I have loved playing elves. I love city elves in the same way I love hard or hardcore settings in games or self-imposed challenges that merely make things a bit more interesting for myself.

I have had a couple some successful city elven characters; they achieved a lot, contributed a lot to the game/players and gave me a fun experience beginning to end. That said, had I played absolutely any other race with the same amount of effort, I would have achieved more, contributed way more to the game/players and would have had many more interesting RP experiences.

City elves have a lot of problems, and those problems are mostly due to poor design decisions regarding their RP documentation and to a much lesser extend the code that is there to support them. Again this is not to say they aren't fun or interesting, but other than adding more race choice in creation, you can quite easily get the same if not more from your gaming experience from just about any other race.

City elves are centered around thievery, one of the most hated mechanics in the game and one of the most dangerous and hard to pull off with IC RP with often knee jerk reactions from the people after losing any minor digital asset on their character. They have trust issues, but once they trust or are part of a tribe, its almost as good as gold.  We also have their issues with riding. And finally the opportunities they have in the IC world as city bound characters.  While some people here might come in and try to dissect and add more nuance and explanations or their own view points to elven race RP, at the end its just needlessly complicated compared to any of the other choices that allows more player freedom to play how you want. Additionally, none of these RP features of their race add any value to either the player or the game other than being an interesting challenge.

From an RP perspective, you can easily play a human or half-elf the same way you do an elf  and you would end up with much more for a lot less. Half elf hate experience is superior to elven hate, and you are still  able to join and participate much more easily with other groups and clans. The recent combat code changes have made elf low strength much more playable. But the overall IC world doesn't support city elves in any meaningful way that warrants all the challenges imposed on them. Most people screamed out about having an elf only clan but I never really supported this view, its just another way to shoehorn the race into a specific way of play. Especially since this was ignoring the fact that elves aren't able to effectively enjoy the few clans they are able join due to their excessive RP restriction. It also ignores the fact that cities offer so few opportunities for city elves unlike other city bound races in terms of advancement or just RP involvement. 

I think the race RP documentation needs to take a step back to allow players to be as creative with city elves as they can with other race. Other races have quirks but they are simple and easy to understand,  City Elf RP documentation needs to be simplified. If you decide to impose a restriction on a race, like you do with elf with aversion to riding as an example, you need to take a good look at the world and player habits and see how that really effects the experience. For example, the documentation could have been modified slightly to elves are proud of their legs prefer to walk and move on their own two feet whenever possible and dislike riding a top other beings. They do become uncomfortable on wagons and much more so on silt skimmers, but standing on their feet helps with this discomfort. Then you look at the IC world and say, perhaps the code should support elves should be able to run on roads outside of cities as well.

Again that alone, would keep the spirit of city elves while opening up many more RP opportunities. Many other aspects of elven culture could be reviewed in similar ways but the game for years has flat out said no, then proceeds to refuse to provide any additional code or RP incentives to play city elves. After all you can run around the city as a human too, its just a minor difference that almost never adds anything.  Again interesting challenge, but it comes at the cost of the overall RP experience for the entire game, you can't blame people for not being masochists all the time. 

[Halaster]

Then you look at the IC world and say, perhaps the code should support elves should be able to run on roads outside of cities as well.

Now that's an idea I really like.

[Dresan]

This is an unpopular opinion, but in an ideal world where acquiring 1 karma is an automated process after 3 or so months of playing, I would recommend making city elves a 1 karma race.  I know this is partially mitigated now for brand new players choosing their first race, but it really isn't enough. Its really a demerit to a healthy game population and to the player's experience for anyone, let alone a newbie to play a city elf in their current state. If they brought in line with desert elves in terms of karma, it would be much easier situation to resolve. Again, I know this is an unpopular idea, so I digress.

While being able to run on roads would be a good quality of life change, it doesn't address the problem of city elves character having a challenging time integrating with the rest of the player base.

In order to resolve this, these are the changes I would recommend exploring:

• Remove unnecessary and detrimental complexity from the race RP. In particular thievery aspect of city elves. Which removes more opportunities and gameplay possibilities then it adds
• Provide coded support to city elves so they can better participate in group activities outside of city walls. More on that below.
• Do not start more city elf clans/tribes instead allow them to join existing clans or tribes where possible such as salarr, kadius, crimson winds bringing them a bit more in line with half-elf and dwarf options for clans

Elf travel outside of cities should support their participation in events with other races/clans, but not allow solo or even city elven group wilderness exploration (this is desert elf domain).

Some ideas would be:

• Allow city elves to run well on roads and decently on rougher paths
• Allow city elves to run decently on well known travel routes between civilization points.
• Allow city elves to run well alongside(follow) wagons, and decently behind medium/large mounts such as beetles/inixes. Again only when following, it isn't their thing to be leading/guiding in this environment.
• Allow elves to run decently in rooms with fresh or recent tracks of medium/large animals or mounts

These following thoughts are much less important and can be ignored as my own personal bias and preference. That said, I have sometimes imagined that the old north road, between allanak and luirs, even in its broken state with huge sink holes dividing it could be used by city elves as almost a super highway. A long distance marathon where they would put their agility, climbing, acrobatics and even combat/stealth skills to the test by getting running through it in the same way that moving through rooftops feels in allanak...except with much more possibility of death or ambush. In my mind, city elves should be at home in civilized and urban terrains, but should be fairly nomadic within their tribes and value the ability to move between these civilized hotspots, some more than others but the majority would have no loyalty or citizenship to any one town or city. They should be quick to adapt to any place through language or accent, but marking of citizen ship such as tuluki tattoos should be abhorrent to the elves as riding. 

[TragicMagick]

Allowing c-elves into certain clans/roles. It makes no sense to me that the city states don't utilize them as assassins, considering they already do that in the alleys, just much more expensively. Pretty certain even if only 1% of the AOD were elves that'd still be pretty useful to the Templarate.

Also a commoner-side elf only clan in Allanak would be excellent. As far as making the play more interesting, giving them the same stamina benefits as D-elfs only seems fair after the change, though if we're sticking to our guns on that one, something that they are flatly better at than delfs. Currently the only things celfs are good at is very situational, and I get that the idea is to force players to operate in the cities, but I feel like that should be RP enforced or something. No other race gets this weird handicap. It should be made up for with some other boon or removed entirely.

[Riev]

Clan wise, elves are far more interesting when they're pretending NOT to be templarate dogs. Give them a reason to exist, self-sufficiently (as a family) that doesn't involve outright stabbing and thieving. This is where the Akai Sjir (ever)shine. They have goals and skills and connections that are not outwardly "We kill for Tuluk".

Non-rinth elves should have access to something, even if its a copy of Akai Sjir stoneworking or some other creation/crafting bend due to their agility. Or even a family of Creatives who do stonework, claywork, and paintings and if you want a portrait done RIGHT, you get it done by the Akai Pain-tirs

[NinjaFruitSalad]

City elves need to not be shoehorned into the roles of thieves and assassins. In fact, the racism, while I'm sure it is still prevalent, needs to be toned down so that c-elves can participate in social events and join other guilds and organizations. Since they make up such a high percentage of the population, it makes absolutely no sense that they ALL are thieves and are unproductive leeches on society. Even the claim that a majority of them are thieves and assassins does not hold water. There are many elf npcs that are not thieves - be they beggars, merchants, or even guards. Yes, I have seen many a elven guard in Luir's and Red Storm. There's no reason they can't belong in the Allanak militia, aside from extreme, undue racism. There are also countless vnpcs that are never seen, but should be implicitly imagined. No one's stuff is randomly disappearing around these ghosts for no reason, but curiously enough, with all the elves on the streets going about their day to day affairs, only the PC elves get singled out, bullied, and threatened.

However, as things stand, there are very few productive opportunities available to c-elves, thus thieving is the most lucrative thing they can do. The prior fact means that other players of course distrust them, and this furthers the racism and reason to exclude c-elves from other clans and events. This is like a chicken and the egg problem and the cycle simply needs to stop. So I propose this change to lore:

Long ago, after the great catastrophe which caused much of the world to turn into wasteland, elves with nowhere else to go had to crowd into the cities with humans. They mostly kept to themselves in their own tribes, but seeing as the other races were outsiders and did not deserve honor, they were very prone to stealing. Eventually, the thieving turned into blood feuds and outright racism and there was a civil war and genocide. In the end, only the more cowardly elves remained, who submitted to the more dominant humans, or they fled into the wastes, and their descendants became the desert elves.

Very harsh laws were enacted in the city which brutally and mercilessly punished any elves caught stealing. And so it was, over time, the thousands of years or so since then and to the present, elves still remain quick and agile, and they could certainly be good at stealing, and often times they are stereotyped as thieves. However, not all elves are thieves. In fact, very few are because the laws are so harsh against elves that being caught stealing is often times a fate worse than death. Thus, those few daring thieves truly are committing acts of defiance and bravery.

So to summarize elves:
-mounts: still reluctant to use mounts, but does so when duty requires, and are always eager to show off their athleticism
-honor and tribalism: still very much a theme. hard to earn trust, but when earned it's for life
-still very fast and good at stealing. The best thief potential in the game!
-punishments for elves who are caught stealing are much steeper than for other races.
-Thieving is still considered an act of bravery, but definitely not commonplace. Many elves might be considered cowardly. Even some of their PCs!
-clans: can join a wide variety of clans and professions, but seeing as their loyalty is first to their tribe, and some profiling, not likely to get promotions
-racism: if belittling others and making their day miserable is your highlight of the evening, it still exists! Just in the form of social inequity, not a hard "all elves are thieves and are subhuman garbage"


Lastly, seeing how important tribes are to elves, c-elves should have some options to spawn into the game as part of a clan, much like how the desert elves have clans. If you want character creation to be more stringent and handpicked and require karma like how it is for d-elfs, I can totally understand that. But since tribes are so important and integral to their identity, they need that support structure. Alternatively, with far less requirements, players can still roll up a lonefoot c-elf.

[Dresan]

Then you look at the IC world and say, perhaps the code should support elves should be able to run on roads outside of cities as well.

Now that's an idea I really like.

I see this has been implemented. I just wanted to mention that its really an excellent change and I am looking forward to playing an elf again when season one starts. I feel this makes city elves equally viable in the north, allowing them going between Luirs and Tuluk with a bit more ease. Since in the south elves already had access to Allanak, Rinth and Redstorm without too much effort.

What I would implore staff to review at this point is the old north road pathways between Allanak and Luirs , its untraversable by mount but considering the descriptions of elves jumping from one building to another, its feasible to think there might be a way for elves with enough run/climb to get through that gauntlet.

Again city elves dont have access to city content and opportunity like humans(ex. Aides) or even the other races. As well as the difficulty of travel prevents them from fully enjoying the content open to other races that can ride. All their coded bonus and rp quirks are double edged sword which can make their lives more challenging in some case or are useless in others.


I dont know if its a little cliche but i feel like being highly resistant to all magick should be an elf thing. At the very least resistances against supernatural abilities targetting their minds or trying to disable their ability to run/function in any way. Yet according to helpfiles it seems dwarves get high magick resistance on top of poison resistance. That dwarf love is enviable.

I've said this before but we need integration not segregation, Elves might still need a bit of an overhaul in regards to documentation but the idea should be to allow them to better integrate into the existing clans. Half-elves can join legionnaires, and racism in this scenario adds a wonderful spice to the experience.  With a few small changes to documentations elves could potentially join more existing clans too.

Overall though I used to play city elves before any of the quality of life changes they've been able to benefit from recently including agility/strength changes and I manage to enjoy the experience even back then. I am definitely looking forward to trying it out now.