Clan Crafting Secrets vs Copying Them - Goofy or Intentional for Playability

[Dracul]

Had a character describe to me how they just cannot figure out how to attach a strap of leather to a glowstone...and I decided to respond that NO ONE but [redacted] knows how to make a giant arrow. They can make giant bolts but not giant arrows! So silly!

That scene really sucked. It's happened several times.


It feels goofy to have some clan locked crafting, and not have functional/utility copies.

How important for playability is it to make specific merchant houses and their PCs be engaged for such things? Is it the only thing that makes them relevant? Do those players like being asked for the same things? Would it be okay for them to just be 'better'? Or is it best as it is?

[Pariah]

I think it's more of a thing that creating crafts is a pain in the ass.

I don't think you'd get denied due to "Ancient GMH Sekrets" if you tried to CC some chalton leather straps onto a glow crystal.

But someone would have to use a CC/Mastercraft slot for it and go through all the bullshit that comes with that.

[Riev]

Glowstone needs (FIND OUT YOURSELF) in order to function, and a certain clan has mastered the ability.

Also, all glowstone crafts (that I've submitted) have been denied because "there is no way to tell if you're using a fresh glowstone, or an empty one, and the new item would be 'full'".

On the other stuff... people just want AMAZING level swords or specialty nipple rings. Someone COULD make a giant sized arrow but the 'cost' (1 month of your time) and the market for it (only HGs who want to use bows despite having dogshit agility) make it not a great idea.



Tangentially related to what I think Dracul means:

I've lobbied for years to remove "clan locks" on crafts. Instead, give GMH/Noble crafting areas amazing/pristine level tools. Anything that is "clan locked" should instead require a certain quality of tool to use it. You want to make an ankheg tooth spear? You don't "have to be Salarr" so much as you need their tools to succeed.

Crafting an amazing-level sword in the Gaj, just because you have the materials and the Salarri knowhow doesn't make sense. You need their tools. Their workshops. Let an elf make the same sword if they have the tools, or a modified workshop, etc. Let Salarr chase them down.

Throw out a plot where the Guild has acquired the tools, and is building a workshop of their own. Salarr can shut it down, or they can hire the Guild Members to work on secret projects that the Family shouldn't know about. Etc etc.

[Pariah]

Glowstone needs (FIND OUT YOURSELF) in order to function, and a certain clan has mastered the ability.

Also, all glowstone crafts (that I've submitted) have been denied because "there is no way to tell if you're using a fresh glowstone, or an empty one, and the new item would be 'full'".

That sounds like a design flaw with the crafting system more than sekret knowledge by your redacted clan.

Couldn't you just make the leather strap work like a container?

put crystal strap
you put the crystal glowstick in the strap.
wear strap
light glowstick

[Riev]

Yes, but unfortunately sometimes you have to work with what you have.

To me its nearly equivalent to "I need a branch of wood to make that. No, not that kind of wood. No, a large branch. No, not the long one, the large one. Yes, its all the same kind of wood, but its the wrong vnum for the code to craft it so please get me the large one."

I was crushed when I couldn't make a glowstone-related craft because it "could be abused", but (at the time) lamps and lanterns could be crafted full of fuel.

[Miradus]

Or "you make a paper box of ...." from the knobby root.

Where did the box come from?

We virtualize a lot of shit in the crafting process for simplicity. Some makes sense, some don't.

The mastercrafting process is absolutely hated by me. I've done it exactly one time and it was such a rage-inducing process that I've never done it again.

Now that we have ranges for weaponry I'd like to see some changes.

Sure, Salarr can make that extremely good giant arrow. But can't other people make an average giant arrow?

[Riev]

The point is that they CAN, but because of the OOC rules (correct class/subclass combinations) and timers restricting custom crafts, its not usually 'worthwhile' to custom craft an arrow.

Also because an "average" giant arrow already exists. Its called a razor sharp hunting spear. (This is not true don't @ me)

[betweenford]

The existence of clanlocked items is a pretty strange tree to bark under.

Alot of those items are clanlocked strictly because they have insignia, or are made a specific way by a house. Items made by Kurac that are simply "x item but with a strap attached to it" can be custom crafted by you, burning a slot.

Now, the issue with that specifically is that you're burning a slot to create something that's not very restricted or imaginative. Your creativity is actively being limited by the ooc rules of the game when theoretically anyone can slap together a glowstone attached to a leather cord, but to make that item or do a forgery you have to wait a month per item.

The game could use alot of crafting improvements to flesh out that side of the game.

[Kavrick]

I'm all for super special clan crafts that are obviously for a clan. But there's a bunch of super simple crafts that are clan only for some reason and it completely screws over indie crafters. A really good example of the top of my head is in the north. The north "fighting style" is described as "heavily armored", but guess what? The majority of gurth shell armor crafts are salarri only. While in the south, an indie crafter can very easily make a full set of scrab armor without issue.

My issue isn't with the idea of clan locked crafts, but the apprent arbitrary system in which decided what is and what isn't clan locked.

[ShaiHulud]

Char one..makes giant arrows. Char two, oh those arrows are clan restricted now.

[Armaddict]

Honestly, I'd say just let everyone craft everything, and make GMH's actively hunt the people using their designs and competing.

Increase danger of crossing lines, make people make shitty deals to be given permission, make weird political plots around it, and make everyone cutthroat around it.

If you don't want your character hunted, play safe and develop your own ideas.  If you want your crafter to be in the midst of turmoil, edge closer to their 'patent' and see how long it takes before someone is offered a sweet enough deal to betray you or corner you.

Then again, we'd just have complaints about how weak those stories are and how they result in death and that's boring, so maaaaybe this is just the better way to be.

[Pariah]

I totally agree with whomever was saying that GMH crafts should be limited by tools moreso than just a clan. 

That would also work to make people WANT to work for Salarr if they see on their craft/analyze list that that they need the sharpener2000 tool that's specific to Salarr to make their fusion jedi saber +3 from a crystal.

To just flip the switch when you get inducted into a clan is sorta jarring.  I've had a few hunter/weaponcrafters who joined Salarr and could make 2 things from a long length of bone, then it balloons to twenty for the same thing, it's weird.  Like I magickally just learned all these recipes by saying "I Do" to a merchant.

[Dune Bunny]

The restriction is pretty jarring from a sensibility idea, as it's an ooc construct that keeps pcs from making clan crafts, so it can be kind of hard to rationalize in character. I've always used the idea that my characters wouldn't dare be caught forging GMH goods, because of the absolute hell they could make your life if found out.

Sure, you're just one person, and it was only one dagger you made a rip-off of, but do you want to be the one that gets made an example of for the others?

It's not a flawless rationalization, but code and character can be a real shitty combination at times (Look at stealth in a lot of cases lol).

That said, I REALLY like the idea of specific tools tied to clan crafting, and opening up the restriction... So long as we don't have someone shadow into a compound and elf the entire toolbox on day one. (I also don't know how much work that would take, going through every clan craft to change the condition!)

[Riev]

As a note:

The idea of elfing an entire toolbox/sharpener2000 is that due to how the way our crafting currently works, if you REQUIRE a tool in a craft and the craft fails? The quality of the tool degrades.

So even if you elf'd that Sharpener2000... you might get 5-6 weapons out of it before it degrades in quality enough that its useless for those crafts. The benefit to being a Salarri is that you have access to these tools from the House (however that would work) and even if you ruined that Sharpener2000 you can requisition another one from the House.

So sure, Elfboy stole your Salarr tools. They're setting up shop and killing your profits. You can let them be, knowing they'll eventually ruin their tools. You can find them and take your property back. You can hire them to make your crafts on the cheap, then sell them at a massive profit to your clients. You can kill them for daring etc etc.

[Pariah]

I honestly think the CLAN CRAFTS should just be reliant on workshop level equipment (Like KILNS for clayworking) non moveable tools.

The fact a Salarri crafter can be sitting on a dune, in a desert with me, and pull out a whetstone and I hand them a mek bone and they make me some masterful vorpal sword +3 while we sit in a barren desert has always been silly.

I don't think we need some crazy handheld tools that degrade with use, they should be doing the big boy shit in their crafting halls anyways is my feeling.

[Riev]

I don't necessarily disagree, but the only thing that really does is make crafters HAVE to be in their respective crafting halls (which only works for the new compound in the north, the southern compound doesn't APPEAR to give the benefits you'd expect)

While it may make more realistic sense for Salarr to chain the sharpener2000 to the wall, its also realistic that tools degrade. Knives. Carvers. Whetstones. Delicate bone-work tools.

I'd rather open up options than force people to have to return to a specific room_id to do their crafting. I also would rather play a Guild Boss who converts some ramshackle building into an impromptu Kadian-style copy-house that starts stitching and embroidering 'fakes'. Sure, its silk, and its in a Kadian style, but at half the cost!

[Coda]

I honestly think the CLAN CRAFTS should just be reliant on workshop level equipment (Like KILNS for clayworking) non moveable tools.

The fact a Salarri crafter can be sitting on a dune, in a desert with me, and pull out a whetstone and I had them a mek bone and they make me some masterful vorpal sword +3 while we sit in a barren desert has always been silly.

I don't think we need some crazy handheld tools that degrade with use, they should be doing the big boy shit in their crafting halls anyways is my feeling.

I like this idea in a way, but if it were implemented, I'd want there to be Crafting Halls in all four major cities that offer some level of benefit (room counts as +0 skill boost tools, for example) that GMH crafters get access to for free, and indies are charged a nominal fee for entry into.  Or maybe it could be a function of having a merchant's license object that gets checked when you enter if you aren't GMH.  There could be a larger central area, and then each GMH could have a separate tent/room/whatever where they can go to craft their main stuff.  The key with it all is to bring people to a centralized point where Rp can happen, rather than crafting in apartments or locked in Clan compounds (obviously clan compound rooms could function similarly, but this opens up an option to do it elsewhere).

I also like the idea of groups like the Akai Sjirr and the Guild having a dedicated crafting room where they can craft their Clan stuff.  Diagrams on the wall, that special measuring tool you need, or whatever could be the excuse.  Anything to bring people together.

[betweenford]

I mean sure maybe your character has eidetic memory of every craftable in the game but alot of GMH crafters virtually rely on pictograph instructions on how to make their stuff.

[Pariah]

I mean sure maybe your character has eidetic memory of every craftable in the game but alot of GMH crafters virtually rely on pictograph instructions on how to make their stuff.

We're not discussing the roleplay side of things here.  More the meat and potatoes CODE of the process.

Sure, I might need to look at a diagram to remember where the bone fits into the other bone and where the chalton leather strap goes this way or that ICLY, but that's all handwaved when you type craft long.length piece.bone strip into #1

[FantasyWriter]

But how to get the code to line up to the way the world does/should exist is a reasonable and loft goal.

[flurry]

I think it would be kind of great to have some combination of tools, schematic diagrams, and workshops needed for certain high end items. Or even specialized skills that you can only learn within the relevant GMH, or from someone who knows the skill, but that you don't forget if you leave the clan.

Since we want it to make sense, of course all this should depend on the item.

[betweenford]

But how to get the code to line up to the way the world does/should exist is a reasonable and loft goal.

It wouldn't be a concern if 2-3 cc's were submittable a month. If you see something GMH which is just a rock attached to a stick you could forge a copy on the spot. All those Kuraci items which are "x strapped to a cord" you could just make your own version. Forgeries are allowed by the current system they're just painful to make because it's a MONTHSLONG process.

[Pariah]

I do agree that CC's should be more per month and that the process shouldn't be so arduous, I think I've only done it once ever and I wanted to hang myself with all the nitpicking and how long it took.

Maybe that will be a good thing to automate somehow?

[Windstorm]

I don't understand why the simple process of making pretty self-regulated items in certain types, unless they are truly wild and unique, even requires staff labor at all. Staff have to do enough without going back and forth through a process trying to nitpick an item.

For the record, you can basically just.. make any clothing item you want on other RPI MUs, or even restyle a weapon freely without any staff interaction at all.

Is there no way it could just be mostly like, automated and then staff would have a simple review and approval process or whatever?  If even that. That's more staff work than most other places have even by  itself.

[mansa]

...
Is there no way it could just be mostly like, automated and then staff would have a simple review and approval process or whatever?  If even that. That's more staff work than most other places have even by  itself.

There is no automated system.  You need to set every value manually, one at a time.

[Windstorm]

I think a part of the weaponry revamping gave them standardized  values though, based on weapon types and materials. It seems like it could possibly be automated if they're all just plug-in values at this point.

[Aesira]

I don't understand why the simple process of making pretty self-regulated items in certain types, unless they are truly wild and unique, even requires staff labor at all. Staff have to do enough without going back and forth through a process trying to nitpick an item.

For the record, you can basically just.. make any clothing item you want on other RPI MUs, or even restyle a weapon freely without any staff interaction at all.

Is there no way it could just be mostly like, automated and then staff would have a simple review and approval process or whatever?  If even that. That's more staff work than most other places have even by  itself.

I think this could be doable. I would have to write up a proposal but I don't see why some of this work couldn't be pushed into the game code and I doubt it would be a significant amount of work.

[Riev]

As I understand it, loading items isn't "DIFFICULT" so much as does require review.

Ensuring the design you're writing is in theme
Checking for types and spelling errors
Conferring with other staff (as necessary) to make sure its not a duplicate with an added line
etc etc

Honestly the actual creation of an item and its values can (and should be) an easy set of steps given to staff capable of creating items. Hell, you could put it all into a spreadsheet and have it spit out the command line(s) to enter.

Having a Template Short Sword that players then basically restring would STILL require review and I personally don't think would reduce staff time in any significant manner.

[mansa]

In my head, I see a web form that can be used to search for existing items, and can be used to create new items.

There would be drop-down boxes to select parameters for the object, and text boxes for the creative and unique parts, such as ldesc, mdesc, sniff desc, etc.

I can see a queue, with an approve / reject / edit button, and different permissions to allow users to approve / edit the items.


However, that's the end state.  Right now staff are using telnet and copy/paste to add new items/NPCs/rooms.  I think there is usefulness in starting to streamline the creation process.

[Miradus]

That is some 1997 shit, Mansa.

Have your people talk to my people.

[Riev]

Really, whats the harm in a staff-only google doc spreadsheet that has things you fill in, and a formula box that gives you the exact code to copy paste into the client to make the item?