Gab of the Week: Human Tribals

[dumbstruck]

Whatever man, justify it like you want to. You can't ride chalton or escru. I'm not even sure who it is that's supposedly breeding the sunbacks and beetles. It's not in the documentation for any tribe that I've played in.

[Tuannon]

If you don't give a rat's arse, there is no point continuing dialogue. Nice and easy.

[Lotion]

one reason I prefer non-elf wasteland characters is because it's a lot harder to bash someone on a mount than someone not on a mount. there are some things you can do about it, but most people don't get to do it

[betweenford]

Whatever man, justify it like you want to. You can't ride chalton or escru. I'm not even sure who it is that's supposedly breeding the sunbacks and beetles. It's not in the documentation for any tribe that I've played in.

Every tribe has bred sunbacks, the cities have bred sunbacks. Wild sunbacks are much different from the sunback mounts that are currently accessible.

Beetles are more of a FOIC thing of the more ancient past, but in essence: the tribes that trained and bred kanks and beetles no longer are capable of doing so for one reason or another.

[dumbstruck]

I wonder if people would have evolved like elves did in the same environment since 'the more ancient past' to be able to walk around in the wastes that they /literally live in daily in tents not on roads/ to have walked better in those wastes than someone who has only ever lived in cities.

[dumbstruck]

Or does evolution only happen to elves in Zalanthas?

[betweenford]

I wonder if people would have evolved like elves did in the same environment since 'the more ancient past' to be able to walk around in the wastes that they /literally live in daily in tents not on roads/ to have walked better in those wastes than someone who has only ever lived in cities.

The peoples of zalanthas that aren't elvish are evolved. They evolved to not die instantly in horrendous weather, or to spend several days without consuming water. Or to spontaneously have specific members establish psionic powers in a breadth not present in other animals.

Alot of the ability of the human tribals to be able to walk around isn't really present in their baseline stats, but alot of their non-aesthetic sandcloth gear.

Dress like a tribal with gear that breathes and you never have to worry about Kuraci gear. Travel around with your trusty animal and keep it regularly fed and never worry about being stuck in one place for too long.

[dumbstruck]

Whatever man. That's a lot of advice and assumption, thanks. And it still doesn't make it make sense or fix the incongruity.

[CirclelessBard]

I just want to chime in to ask: is there space in the game for a non-combat human tribal character in one of the coded tribes, in a more social role?

It feels like a lot of the discussion is about delf mechanical advantages and about delf domination of the Tablelands, which might be the reality of the "situation on the ground" but does not match up at all with the Tablelands documentation, or the "the game is not about killing things" line on the home page. I have to admit it's a little bit discouraging to see "elves are templars of the outdoors" when the docs say that a variety of tribes of different races live in the Tablelands and as a general rule, members of one tribe do not mess with members of another tribe in a way that could bring back consequences on their own tribe.

If the answer to my question is "no" then I have a couple of future character concepts I'll need to scrap. 

[betweenford]

I just want to chime in to ask: is there space in the game for a non-combat human tribal character in one of the coded tribes, in a more social role?

It feels like a lot of the discussion is about delf mechanical advantages and about delf domination of the Tablelands, which might be the reality of the "situation on the ground" but does not match up at all with the Tablelands documentation, or the "the game is not about killing things" line on the home page. I have to admit it's a little bit discouraging to see "elves are templars of the outdoors" when the docs say that a variety of tribes of different races live in the Tablelands and as a general rule, members of one tribe do not mess with members of another tribe in a way that could bring back consequences on their own tribe.

If the answer to my question is "no" then I have a couple of future character concepts I'll need to scrap. 

The short answer is yes, every tribe usually has traders and people who are more social. Traders, thieves, diplomats. The longer answer is yes-kinda. For example, without referencing specific tribe documentation, if you roll a purely social character you might have a hard time leaving camp in a purely coded, mechanical sense because of the animals around.

From personal experience, alot of the tribes don't necessarily mess with each other outright, or at the local oases. Unless you're known to be a mage. Some tribes are more liable than others to straightup attack you with little to no warning; for some cultural breach that in their eyes have made you a target.

If you're just like, an Araseik guy or gal wearing your clan gear and chilling, you're not very likely to be attacked (the Seik are more likely to be attacked by people who don't know what their gear looks like lmao, I've seen one person think their gear was like, evil looking and attacked a dude thinking he was a sorcerer), but some of the tribes are more territorial than others. Other tribes don't like encroachment too much, to a reasonable extent. Like if you're a Rihali in the north for some reason, you might get the stink eye from the northern tribes. But in Abi'li Pah, like the docs say, alot of tribes don't really overtly mess with each other purely for existing.

Or like the Araseik, leaving camp and seeing a carru breathing down your neck ready to kill your trader pc instantly. Or like how I imagine the Rihali go, walking outside and seeing a scrab.

[Pariah]

Why did this thread about human tribals turn into talk about desert elves.

Because when you discuss desert tribal humans, in this scope, it's always gonna bring some comparison to the other desert tribals.

You can't really have one without the other especially when it goes into the viability of play.  D-elves start out drastically better mechanically than human tribals.  Human tribals are regarded almost as badly as elves in a way when they deal with certain folks socially, or I should say, can be.

They already are desert adapted. The animals that each tribe breeds, roams with, and seeks sustenance from virtually are also desert adapted animals that in some circumstances, are better at roaming than elves.

Escru provide milk, erdlu provide eggs (which are supposed to have as much water as a waterskin, in the inspirational material), sunbacks and beetle and inixes provide travel.

Sure in make belief roleplay ways sure.  I think the things being discussed about the differences in human to elf tribals is mostly having to do with the playability or gamifying aspect of it.  Not who has a richer history or all that intangible stuff.

Things like eggs that virtually are produced or milk I can't actually put into my waterskin is sorta worthless in the day to day play of a character.

I think we tend to get lost in the lore of various characters or people in this game.  One has a distinct coded advantage, someone points it out and discusses it and others go, "But wait, your people raise the only chickens in Zalanthas and have a rich history of giving us eggs!" (Shitty example but you get the idea) Which might be LORE WISE 100% true, but playability wise, absolutely fucking useless unless I WISH Hey can you guys pop me some eggs into existence because we got all these chickens, and staff deams to give a flying fuck to do it.  That's the only way I gain anything from those cool little backstory snippets of lore.

I think when things like this are discussed, we have to have a hard line in what actually affects your character on a day to day (code, real world things that happen) and things that are just nice little fluff backstory bit shit, like "Milk can fill a whole waterskin"

[Miradus]

Open up Madreks for play.

[lostinspace]

So far nobody has mentioned anything human tribals can do that can't be done just as well on a human city character.

I think that sort of sums up my thoughts on human tribals.

I think recently there have been introduction of clan specific gick subclasses for some races, maybe clan specific psionic subclasses could be the unique thing for human tribals.

[Pariah]

So far nobody has mentioned anything human tribals can do that can't be done just as well on a human city character...

That's sorta the point, aside from a tribal accent which anyone can learn with long enough listening to "hillbilly humans".

There is really no benefit to human tribals.  But if you look at d elves there is definitely benefits out the box.

Something to differentiate tribals from "normal" humans would be nice.

[flurry]

This probably isn't very helpful, because I'm not going to be specific unless staff say it's okay. But I played an Anyali ages ago (maybe 2003 or so) and my recollection is that there was a specific coded perk. No idea whether other official human tribes get the same perk, or if desert elf tribes do.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Sometimes I kick this idea around in my head too. Close official human tribes.  Make these changes.  Let players handle that role call rotation i suggested themselves. Approve their docs, let them refill dead and inactive up to 4 cap, don't build stuff they can't CC. Maybe add a generic tiny player tribal camp that has a sleep and storage tent and rotates if they dedicate CC to it.  Let them live and die where they want.  If someone wants to role call for an official tribe, open it up for them.

Can someone fill me in on what CC stands for?

Also, I think tribal dwarves and tribal half-giants need some love.

[betweenford]

Sometimes I kick this idea around in my head too. Close official human tribes.  Make these changes.  Let players handle that role call rotation i suggested themselves. Approve their docs, let them refill dead and inactive up to 4 cap, don't build stuff they can't CC. Maybe add a generic tiny player tribal camp that has a sleep and storage tent and rotates if they dedicate CC to it.  Let them live and die where they want.  If someone wants to role call for an official tribe, open it up for them.

Can someone fill me in on what CC stands for?

Also, I think tribal dwarves and tribal half-giants need some love.

Custom Craft, in this circumstance.

In the request tool it means the same context as your email. Carbon Copy.

[Triskelion]

So far nobody has mentioned anything human tribals can do that can't be done just as well on a human city character...

That's sorta the point, aside from a tribal accent which anyone can learn with long enough listening to "hillbilly humans".

There is really no benefit to human tribals.  But if you look at d elves there is definitely benefits out the box.

Something to differentiate tribals from "normal" humans would be nice.

It's not as if the desert elf race just has pure gravy advantages with no drawbacks. The inability to have high strength means elven melee combat is terrible, even with the recent changes to fighting styles. Mounts can ride considerably further than an elf can run. The awful, outdated system of combat skill progress makes high agility a huge disadvantage in skilling up. Having to fight on foot leaves you susceptible to various combat skills that a mounted character never needs to worry about. Having what amounts to low/middling human strength leaves you unable to carry more than barest minimum of crucial necessities and light, crappy armor. Nowadays, elves also struggle to wield anything bigger than a longknife without penalties. These are serious drawbacks.

There's a strange "down with the elves!" vibe on the GDB lately, and it rarely seems to be based on anything real, just misapprehensions about the code or imaginary scenarios that don't actually take place. I mean, I'm seeing people complaining that desert elves are running amok in the Tablelands when both the Soh Lanah Kah and the Sun Runners are literally closed for play and everyone knows that a decidedly non-elven conglomerate is the unopposable powerhouse of that area these days. Are people just making shit up?

I don't think desert-walking is the solution for human tribals. They would still just choose to ride. That can also explain why they didn't evolve to do it better--they've always resorted to riding animals. It's objectively better. That's why riding is a thing. If anything, a city-dweller might actually walk more than a nomad does. Personally, I think that it's enough of an advantage to just have a coded camp that no outsiders can get into, and which tends to be in an area that is good for hunting and gathering, as opposed to needing to travel from inside a city to wherever a ranger type does their thing.

The problem has been that there aren't enough players to fill these tribes (hence why the human ones went the way of the kank), and there aren't enough things happening in the gameworld that tribal characters of either race have a natural part of, or even an opportunity to hear about unless they lean more towards city play than they really ought to. Coded benefits aren't the solution to that. Storytelling that is relevant to tribes is the solution.

And then I think there should be one elven tribe and one human tribe. There were too many even when this game was at the height of its popularity. Human tribes were never really distinctive and noteworthy enough, except for the Tan Muark in their heyday. It shouldn't be difficult to cook up a world plot that compels both desert elves and human nomads to each band together with the rest of their kin, and that will help a lot in making it worth playing either one.

[betweenford]

So far nobody has mentioned anything human tribals can do that can't be done just as well on a human city character...

That's sorta the point, aside from a tribal accent which anyone can learn with long enough listening to "hillbilly humans".

There is really no benefit to human tribals.  But if you look at d elves there is definitely benefits out the box.

Something to differentiate tribals from "normal" humans would be nice.

It's not as if the desert elf race just has pure gravy advantages with no drawbacks. The inability to have high strength means elven melee combat is terrible, even with the recent changes to fighting styles. Mounts can ride considerably further than an elf can run. The awful, outdated system of combat skill progress makes high agility a huge disadvantage in skilling up. Having to fight on foot leaves you susceptible to various combat skills that a mounted character never needs to worry about. Having what amounts to low/middling human strength leaves you unable to carry more than barest minimum of crucial necessities and light, crappy armor. Nowadays, elves also struggle to wield anything bigger than a longknife without penalties. These are serious drawbacks.

IIRC, almost all mounts are also faster at running than all desert elves, with tremendous amounts of stamina. The recent changes to desert elf endurance place their endurance at lower levels than human endurance, which means they regenerate MV at a much slower rate than they used to, and are more vulnerable to poisons and certain other saving throws.

With current mount regeneration rates, with the feeding code, they also regenerate at pretty insane rates.

Most people don't run their mounts for half the length of the game world in one sitting though, rest for a handful of minutes and continue on, and elves can roam in terrain where mounts can't. They also regenerate at rates better than mounts when the animals find themselves at the lower level of exhaustion.

In short bursts, a mount is better than an elf for traveling. For long treks, an elf beats the mount out. Upsides and downsides.

[Triskelion]

Most people don't run their mounts for half the length of the game world in one sitting though, rest for a handful of minutes and continue on, and elves can roam in terrain where mounts can't. They also regenerate at rates better than mounts when the animals find themselves at the lower level of exhaustion.

In short bursts, a mount is better than an elf for traveling. For long treks, an elf beats the mount out. Upsides and downsides.

I mean, you can ride from Red Storm to Tuluk in one go with a beetle or inix. The only time mount stamina is a concern is if you're roaming around on rough terrain and don't have a destination in mind. You're right that desert elf running is not in fact very fast unless on roads. In rough terrain, an elf can't outrun a snake. It's actually kind of ridiculous. On roads, they're about as fast as an inix.

If it was less awkward to run around with a tent on you, d-elf travel would be very versatile. That's usually not much of an option, though, unless you can justify instantly dropping it anytime there's combat. That may not be the most ridiculous thing in the world, but it is a huge hassle, especially with the frequent crashes lately.

One thing I do believe would suit the tribal human role is to start with a free mount. However, there would have to be an actual go-to tribe for that, as opposed to simply picking the tribal option in your pre-game setup. That's why I think there should be one tribe for humans and one for elves, and all tribals must belong to that one, but the human ones would be free to be either fringe members who left the camp to pursue other ways in life, or proper members who do in fact live as nomads.

[RheaGhe]

Most people don't run their mounts for half the length of the game world in one sitting though, rest for a handful of minutes and continue on, and elves can roam in terrain where mounts can't. They also regenerate at rates better than mounts when the animals find themselves at the lower level of exhaustion.

In short bursts, a mount is better than an elf for traveling. For long treks, an elf beats the mount out. Upsides and downsides.

I mean, you can ride from Red Storm to Tuluk in one go with a beetle or inix. The only time mount stamina is a concern is if you're roaming around on rough terrain and don't have a destination in mind. You're right that desert elf running is not in fact very fast unless on roads. In rough terrain, an elf can't outrun a snake. It's actually kind of ridiculous. On roads, they're about as fast as an inix.

If it was less awkward to run around with a tent on you, d-elf travel would be very versatile. That's usually not much of an option, though, unless you can justify instantly dropping it anytime there's combat. That may not be the most ridiculous thing in the world, but it is a huge hassle, especially with the frequent crashes lately.

One thing I do believe would suit the tribal human role is to start with a free mount. However, there would have to be an actual go-to tribe for that, as opposed to simply picking the tribal option in your pre-game setup. That's why I think there should be one tribe for humans and one for elves, and all tribals must belong to that one, but the human ones would be free to be either fringe members who left the camp to pursue other ways in life, or proper members who do in fact live as nomads.

Humans can easily carry a small tent by the way. And walk. Without much issues.

I've walked in less than 20 minutes between cenyr and Allanak. With just a tent and 2 feet on human stalker.

[betweenford]

Most people don't run their mounts for half the length of the game world in one sitting though, rest for a handful of minutes and continue on, and elves can roam in terrain where mounts can't. They also regenerate at rates better than mounts when the animals find themselves at the lower level of exhaustion.

In short bursts, a mount is better than an elf for traveling. For long treks, an elf beats the mount out. Upsides and downsides.

I mean, you can ride from Red Storm to Tuluk in one go with a beetle or inix. The only time mount stamina is a concern is if you're roaming around on rough terrain and don't have a destination in mind. You're right that desert elf running is not in fact very fast unless on roads. In rough terrain, an elf can't outrun a snake. It's actually kind of ridiculous. On roads, they're about as fast as an inix.

If it was less awkward to run around with a tent on you, d-elf travel would be very versatile. That's usually not much of an option, though, unless you can justify instantly dropping it anytime there's combat. That may not be the most ridiculous thing in the world, but it is a huge hassle, especially with the frequent crashes lately.

One thing I do believe would suit the tribal human role is to start with a free mount. However, there would have to be an actual go-to tribe for that, as opposed to simply picking the tribal option in your pre-game setup. That's why I think there should be one tribe for humans and one for elves, and all tribals must belong to that one, but the human ones would be free to be either fringe members who left the camp to pursue other ways in life, or proper members who do in fact live as nomads.

Agreed, though usually when I was playing in the various tribes, there was a point where everyone would pitch in and try to tame and buy mounts across the world just in case someone else rolled in and needed a mount. The old era of the Tan Muark had mounts they could acquire that were clan specific. More clans should probably have clan specific mounts/burden animals. Not necessarily stuff that's remarkable or better. But stuff like different coloration, branding, etc.

[Patuk]

It's not as if the desert elf race just has pure gravy advantages with no drawbacks.

Indeed not - when compared to desert-bound humans, dwarves, and so forth. They are however pure gravy as compared to city elves, which even the funny recent change of 'city rooms now cost them 1 stam/each' doesn't particularly change.

[Triskelion]

It's not as if the desert elf race just has pure gravy advantages with no drawbacks.

Indeed not - when compared to desert-bound humans, dwarves, and so forth. They are however pure gravy as compared to city elves, which even the funny recent change of 'city rooms now cost them 1 stam/each' doesn't particularly change.

Sure, but the aeroplane is a faster mode of transportation than the automobile. Neither compete with each other, though. I don't think there's any point considering whether desert elves are better than city elves (the former being a karma race, after all). The question was if tribal humans - actual tribal humans, not "hi i'm runner amos of the pink spears who are all dead now except me' - are an attractive enough venue of play to warrant sequestering even more players off into tribes.

[lostinspace]

Unlike elves, humans have no such divide in where they're allowed to play.
A city born human can ride an inix just as far as a tribal born human.

The reason I've never bothered playing a human tribal is because I could play a human citizen and seemingly accomplish all the same goals.

It would be nice if tribal humans had something to distinguish them. But IMO city humans do the human part better, and elf tribals do the tribal part better.