Gab of the Week: Human Tribals

[Kavrick]

Alright, next up is tribals! This one is pretty simple, we all know tribals, but I've got a few questions for this one in particular. These questions are just two, but I think the answers will require a bit of thought.

1. Do you personally prefer playing a virtual tribe, or playing in a coded one? And why?

2. If you prefer playing in a coded one, which tribes would you like to see open? And why?

Hope everyone is having a nice week, was originally going to make this thread about celves, but after the last thread... Please remain respectful to differing opinions and all that, but I'd like to think this topic wont be so heated, after all, everyone loves tribals!

[lostinspace]

Truthfully, if I want to play a tribal I almost always go for Desert Elf.
The few times I have played a human tribal, I've always gone for a virtual tribe.
I couldn't even name an existing human tribe.

[Kavrick]

Truthfully, if I want to play a tribal I almost always go for Desert Elf.

I'm not surprised about this, but I would like to ask, what makes you gravitate towards a desert elf tribal over a human one?

[Lotion]

Player run family rolecall tribes are some of the absolute best tribal experiences you can have in the game. However, there are a few things that staff could do to support them better (this is mostly policy changes)

• Allow more later PCs to spawn in as fresh toons in the event of a player flaking too early. Wasting one of four "slots" on someone who ends up not playing their character very much at all or immediately ghosts feels so sad. The Cernd Viir'i suffered from this.
• Similarly to the new policy for sponsored roles, allow players to temporarily store their characters in order to participate in a family rolecall. It's very sad when a player seeds a rolecall they would be able to absolutely rock and then not be able to because it would mean abandoning their current role. Even worse is if you bin a well established character to rock a fresh toon in a cool literally once in a lifetime tribe and get carru'd at 4 hours played.

[Tuannon]

They are almost universally overridden by any desert elf community that borders their lands. To the extent of being harassed by Sun Runners for being near their (your) sacred site.

[lostinspace]

I'm not surprised about this, but I would like to ask, what makes you gravitate towards a desert elf tribal over a human one?

I think 2 reasons.
1: Desert elves do tribal better. Better camps, better ability to travel, don't need mount, stealth archery, climbing to reach destinations, etc.

2: Non-tribal humans do hunting/wilderness just as good. What does a tribal human do that a raider/stalker/scout riding out of Luir's can't? They can spend just as much time outside city walls as the tribal, but also has no issue renting an apartment to store stuff or whatever.

Truthfully the ONLY reason I could think to play a human tribal, is because you want to play an Enforcer/Infiltrator, and I think those classes are restricted for D.Elves

[Kavrick]

1: Desert elves do tribal better. Better camps, better ability to travel, don't need mount, stealth archery, climbing to reach destinations, etc.

I'm not actually sure if I would agree with 'do better', more than just 'do differently'. Desert running is convenient, but mounts, especially when fed can travel further than desert running. I will say, I think humans should be able to walk a lot further than they currently can, letting delves keep their desert running but making wilderness stealth less clunky for humans.

[dunecrawler]

The coded human tribes just seem... incredibly boring, going by the help files, and I've never learned much that goes beyond the help files in game. They don't seem to have much going on RP-wise, other than trade and socializing. The only human tribal I've ever played was a Tan Muark back in the day, and I just got bored out of my mind. That one is one of the few PCs that I stored.

[papertiger]

The tribe I tried was really unique (coded), but I just didn't really dig how isolated I felt in it. If I had been more confident in how to train solo to get myself to and from Luir's more regularly to get more interaction, I'd have enjoyed it a lot more. I didn't really know how. I gave it a solid try, but it just wasn't for me (at least not yet?).

I might try it again when I feel more confident I won't just suicide to creatures. It feels like a more advanced role, though maybe it's just my personal inexperience with PvE. I think I need to play another Bynner before I'd consider it again. I also just didn't love my character concept. It was too shallow and development felt difficult without interaction.

[Kaathe]

All this is off memory and not corroborated with logs or data. 

When I started staffing Araseik was the only human tribe. We had a steady player and a few folks pass through. It was quaint. I think folks liked it, but generally didn't stick long term.

Then they soft closed and Vru'Rihali opened. VR had that early excitement and it lasted awhile. Then a lull and then few weeks of vru rihali being full again. It was awesome. It's got a unique rank up system that needs work, but has good potential that other tribes lack. Regardless VR is on the wane again. 

I got 5 people for the mystery tribe role call across both peak time zones. There is excitement. But between my mistakes and an early carru death the project was dead in a month. 

I've only been at this a year.  Human tribes have been open in the game for decades.  So I won't despair. But I do think the role call to get a group going is probably the way to go.  Have one tribe open. Role call.  Enjoy it. When it peters out, pick a new tribe, spruce it up, open it with a role call, rinse and repeat. 

[Kaathe]

Player run family rolecall tribes are some of the absolute best tribal experiences you can have in the game. However, there are a few things that staff could do to support them better (this is mostly policy changes)

• Allow more later PCs to spawn in as fresh toons in the event of a player flaking too early. Wasting one of four "slots" on someone who ends up not playing their character very much at all or immediately ghosts feels so sad. The Cernd Viir'i suffered from this.
• Similarly to the new policy for sponsored roles, allow players to temporarily store their characters in order to participate in a family rolecall. It's very sad when a player seeds a rolecall they would be able to absolutely rock and then not be able to because it would mean abandoning their current role. Even worse is if you bin a well established character to rock a fresh toon in a cool literally once in a lifetime tribe and get carru'd at 4 hours played.

Sometimes I kick this idea around in my head too. Close official human tribes.  Make these changes.  Let players handle that role call rotation i suggested themselves. Approve their docs, let them refill dead and inactive up to 4 cap, don't build stuff they can't CC. Maybe add a generic tiny player tribal camp that has a sleep and storage tent and rotates if they dedicate CC to it.  Let them live and die where they want.  If someone wants to role call for an official tribe, open it up for them.

Would that be too awesome? Would we get too many at once making support a challenge and cities empty? Would we just allow one at a time? What if one blocks it for years? Would ensuring sensible lore be a strain and point of contention? This gets complex real fast and then I stop thinking about it.

[Lotion]

I think a lot of kaathe's problems are mostly self solving or could easily be addressed once we get to them and they rear their little kitty fangs

[dumbstruck]

I love playing human tribals.

I really dislike that the advantages that desert elves have claim to be sourced from living in the desert for generations when human tribals have done this and lack the same. (To be clear, I don't mean wild running, though i definitely think having normal human stamina ranges but a 2 stamina movement per wilderness room while walking would make sense, especially if it was balanced by taking a similar movement penalty in cities, but I'm mostly talking about stuff like being able to climb and sneak to a one last I recall, when in the wilds, and things like that. I would think growing up out there, you would learn it).

If you want to have 2 different elven races, that's fine, but don't do it in a way that makes it look so stupid and terrible on the humans living in the same situation.

It is not surprising to me that with the mechanical advantages that desert elves have over desert humans (aka human tribals) people repeatedly opt to play desert elves. Just the same way in a city they do with humans because the city elves are disadvantaged.

I don't play human tribals because I am looking to socialize or spend a great deal of tribe mates, because in my experience of play, this is not a realistic expectation. Additionally, it is difficult to find a happy medium between too little documentation to establish a distinct culture and presence and too much documentation feeling like a straitjacket that narrows everyone into something unappealingly narrow/specific.

I also like Kaathe's idea but at the same time I worry about how viable it would be if done, and, honestly, how many people would succeed at doing anything where if you pulled back the veil on it it wouldn't look dubious or like favortism in some fashion and that complicating things down the road.

I ultimately wish this game had more automatic approval of things that added to roleplay and the world so it felt like fewer parts were subject to the personal opinion and feelings of someone overseeing you because even if you like them that doesn't account the stories that always creep up of people who were pursuing something and working well with their team and then staff rotations happened and nothing worked or made sense and then six months of their rl life went up in smoke, etc.

[Windstorm]

I ultimately wish this game had more automatic approval of things that added to roleplay and the world so it felt like fewer parts were subject to the personal opinion and feelings of someone overseeing you because even if you like them that doesn't account the stories that always creep up of people who were pursuing something and working well with their team and then staff rotations happened and nothing worked or made sense and then six months of their rl life went up in smoke, etc.

I'm not sure I can possibly echo this harder.

There's not a thing I dislike more in Armageddon than things being restricted/having rules placed over them when no one was harmed, the rules in place just restricted roleplay and interaction, and the results were then punitive and reductive. Sometimes out of nowhere.

Much's I'm an advocate of players trusting staff, if no harm's being done, I think honestly that the same kind of trust that the staff is asking of players needs to be extended TO players, in return.

Coming together does mean extending some trust both ways!

[CirclelessBard]

Player run family rolecall tribes are some of the absolute best tribal experiences you can have in the game. However, there are a few things that staff could do to support them better (this is mostly policy changes)

• Allow more later PCs to spawn in as fresh toons in the event of a player flaking too early. Wasting one of four "slots" on someone who ends up not playing their character very much at all or immediately ghosts feels so sad. The Cernd Viir'i suffered from this.
• Similarly to the new policy for sponsored roles, allow players to temporarily store their characters in order to participate in a family rolecall. It's very sad when a player seeds a rolecall they would be able to absolutely rock and then not be able to because it would mean abandoning their current role. Even worse is if you bin a well established character to rock a fresh toon in a cool literally once in a lifetime tribe and get carru'd at 4 hours played.

Sometimes I kick this idea around in my head too. Close official human tribes.  Make these changes.  Let players handle that role call rotation i suggested themselves. Approve their docs, let them refill dead and inactive up to 4 cap, don't build stuff they can't CC. Maybe add a generic tiny player tribal camp that has a sleep and storage tent and rotates if they dedicate CC to it.  Let them live and die where they want.  If someone wants to role call for an official tribe, open it up for them.

Would that be too awesome? Would we get too many at once making support a challenge and cities empty? Would we just allow one at a time? What if one blocks it for years? Would ensuring sensible lore be a strain and point of contention? This gets complex real fast and then I stop thinking about it.

For what it's worth, I think there is no such thing as "too awesome" when we're talking about making a game more fun and adding new opportunities that fit into the game's theme.

Yes, you would probably get a lot at the start, but in my experience with a variety of games, that always happens whenever there is a new option for play. There is a swell, then things will eventually even out once the most interested people have tried it out. There can also be slots for tribes, so staff can decide to support no more than X amount of player-created tribes at a time, and adjust X as needed.

[whengravityfails]

I ultimately wish this game had more automatic approval of things that added to roleplay and the world so it felt like fewer parts were subject to the personal opinion and feelings of someone overseeing you because even if you like them that doesn't account the stories that always creep up of people who were pursuing something and working well with their team and then staff rotations happened and nothing worked or made sense and then six months of their rl life went up in smoke, etc.

I'm not sure I can possibly echo this harder.

There's not a thing I dislike more in Armageddon than things being restricted/having rules placed over them when no one was harmed, the rules in place just restricted roleplay and interaction, and the results were then punitive and reductive. Sometimes out of nowhere.

Much's I'm an advocate of players trusting staff, if no harm's being done, I think honestly that the same kind of trust that the staff is asking of players needs to be extended TO players, in return.

Coming together does mean extending some trust both ways!

I ultimately wish this game had more automatic approval of things that added to roleplay and the world so it felt like fewer parts were subject to the personal opinion and feelings of someone overseeing you because even if you like them that doesn't account the stories that always creep up of people who were pursuing something and working well with their team and then staff rotations happened and nothing worked or made sense and then six months of their rl life went up in smoke, etc.

I'm not sure I can possibly echo this harder.

There's not a thing I dislike more in Armageddon than things being restricted/having rules placed over them when no one was harmed, the rules in place just restricted roleplay and interaction, and the results were then punitive and reductive. Sometimes out of nowhere.

Much's I'm an advocate of players trusting staff, if no harm's being done, I think honestly that the same kind of trust that the staff is asking of players needs to be extended TO players, in return.

Coming together does mean extending some trust both ways!
[/quote]

I'm going to echo this as well! Also, mechanically, I've always found it weird that human tribals can't at least walk a longer distance in the outdoors, like delves can run. They just kind of get the shaft there, making any kind of desert stealthiness of limited use.

[Pariah]

I think it's reasonable to give human tribals a lower stamina per room walk rate.

I get they aren't desert elves used to running long distances, but these guys live with the desert literally out their tent flap.  They shouldn't drain 5 mv per room (or whatever it is) that a regular city bound human does who's used to walking on paved roads.

I'm all for them having their MV per room lowered, that would give them some believability in the world that they grew up in the wastes.

[Riev]

Even dropping it to 3 stamina for an outdoors room would give them an extra ~60 rooms of movement, or around 30 rooms worth of radius.

I don't think tribals are walking the Red Route (unless they're taking the road) but I do think they'd be able to move more than 10 leagues.

[Brytta Léofa]

I'm afraid this would cause almost every human combat PC to pick a tribal origin?

(don't get me wrong, I like the idea)

[Pariah]

I'm afraid this would cause almost every human combat PC to pick a tribal origin?

So? Everyone who wants to play a real hunter type, using stealth skills in the wilds picks a d-elf.  Because Humans and their reliance on mounts just is playing wilderness ninja on nightmare mode.

I don't think it's really a bad thing is certain races/origins be used for certain types of play.  I'm not sure why everyone has a bad taste about that.  It's like Muls, sure you could play a complicated, emotional lovey dovey mul if you want.  But at the end of the day, they are murderhobo inclined at the very least.

Having human tribals be the goto for human combat isn't a horrible thing.

[betweenford]

Why did this thread about human tribals turn into talk about desert elves.

[dumbstruck]

Why did this thread about human tribals turn into talk about desert elves.

Because people sleep on tribal humans in large part to coded boosts to desert elves allegedly borne of 'evolution due to living in the wastes' when human tribals have been doing that for ages as well in the case of many of the tribes, Araseik for example. And yet they don't evolve? I get them not evolving /running/ but they should surely be more efficient at /walking/ desert wastes than humans who have lived in cities all their lives, no? And as such it is a very valid measure of comparison given the given reason for why one can and one cannot. And it's well known that there was a period of /years/ where a large majority of the playerbase was driven from playing human tribals due to them being Araseik in the Pah /literally living alongside those very elves all those years/ while the players of and the desert elf characters themselves harried the shit out of them and made the role literally unplayable. Was that recent? No. But there is a stupid incongruity there, and it's a joke that people take all too much to their head all these jokes about desert elves being the templars of the sands.

[Tuannon]

The elves are better at being a tribe than any human, and as stated before they believe the territory belongs to them and they outnumber the humans. So it's roughly the same principle as who is the one who gets to run the plots in the city, the one who can kill you first.

[dumbstruck]

I honestly don't give a rats ass about your plots or how good your tribe is. I care about how stupid and nonsensical it is that two groups are subject to the same condition for ages and ages and one supposedly has evolved /so much/ they literally cannot be in a city and the other literally cannot walk better in the sands that they spent those same hundreds or thousands of years in better than some asshole who wandered out of Allanak yesterday. Sure, only one race can evolve, Jan.

[betweenford]

Why did this thread about human tribals turn into talk about desert elves.

Because people sleep on tribal humans in large part to coded boosts to desert elves allegedly borne of 'evolution due to living in the wastes' when human tribals have been doing that for ages as well in the case of many of the tribes, Araseik for example. And yet they don't evolve? I get them not evolving /running/ but they should surely be more efficient at /walking/ desert wastes than humans who have lived in cities all their lives, no? And as such it is a very valid measure of comparison given the given reason for why one can and one cannot. And it's well known that there was a period of /years/ where a large majority of the playerbase was driven from playing human tribals due to them being Araseik in the Pah /literally living alongside those very elves all those years/ while the players of and the desert elf characters themselves harried the shit out of them and made the role literally unplayable. Was that recent? No. But there is a stupid incongruity there, and it's a joke that people take all too much to their head all these jokes about desert elves being the templars of the sands.

They already are desert adapted. The animals that each tribe breeds, roams with, and seeks sustenance from virtually are also desert adapted animals that in some circumstances, are better at roaming than elves.

Escru provide milk, erdlu provide eggs (which are supposed to have as much water as a waterskin, in the inspirational material), sunbacks and beetle and inixes provide travel.

[dumbstruck]

Whatever man, justify it like you want to. You can't ride chalton or escru. I'm not even sure who it is that's supposedly breeding the sunbacks and beetles. It's not in the documentation for any tribe that I've played in.

[Tuannon]

If you don't give a rat's arse, there is no point continuing dialogue. Nice and easy.

[Lotion]

one reason I prefer non-elf wasteland characters is because it's a lot harder to bash someone on a mount than someone not on a mount. there are some things you can do about it, but most people don't get to do it

[betweenford]

Whatever man, justify it like you want to. You can't ride chalton or escru. I'm not even sure who it is that's supposedly breeding the sunbacks and beetles. It's not in the documentation for any tribe that I've played in.

Every tribe has bred sunbacks, the cities have bred sunbacks. Wild sunbacks are much different from the sunback mounts that are currently accessible.

Beetles are more of a FOIC thing of the more ancient past, but in essence: the tribes that trained and bred kanks and beetles no longer are capable of doing so for one reason or another.

[dumbstruck]

I wonder if people would have evolved like elves did in the same environment since 'the more ancient past' to be able to walk around in the wastes that they /literally live in daily in tents not on roads/ to have walked better in those wastes than someone who has only ever lived in cities.

[dumbstruck]

Or does evolution only happen to elves in Zalanthas?

[betweenford]

I wonder if people would have evolved like elves did in the same environment since 'the more ancient past' to be able to walk around in the wastes that they /literally live in daily in tents not on roads/ to have walked better in those wastes than someone who has only ever lived in cities.

The peoples of zalanthas that aren't elvish are evolved. They evolved to not die instantly in horrendous weather, or to spend several days without consuming water. Or to spontaneously have specific members establish psionic powers in a breadth not present in other animals.

Alot of the ability of the human tribals to be able to walk around isn't really present in their baseline stats, but alot of their non-aesthetic sandcloth gear.

Dress like a tribal with gear that breathes and you never have to worry about Kuraci gear. Travel around with your trusty animal and keep it regularly fed and never worry about being stuck in one place for too long.

[dumbstruck]

Whatever man. That's a lot of advice and assumption, thanks. And it still doesn't make it make sense or fix the incongruity.

[CirclelessBard]

I just want to chime in to ask: is there space in the game for a non-combat human tribal character in one of the coded tribes, in a more social role?

It feels like a lot of the discussion is about delf mechanical advantages and about delf domination of the Tablelands, which might be the reality of the "situation on the ground" but does not match up at all with the Tablelands documentation, or the "the game is not about killing things" line on the home page. I have to admit it's a little bit discouraging to see "elves are templars of the outdoors" when the docs say that a variety of tribes of different races live in the Tablelands and as a general rule, members of one tribe do not mess with members of another tribe in a way that could bring back consequences on their own tribe.

If the answer to my question is "no" then I have a couple of future character concepts I'll need to scrap. 

[betweenford]

I just want to chime in to ask: is there space in the game for a non-combat human tribal character in one of the coded tribes, in a more social role?

It feels like a lot of the discussion is about delf mechanical advantages and about delf domination of the Tablelands, which might be the reality of the "situation on the ground" but does not match up at all with the Tablelands documentation, or the "the game is not about killing things" line on the home page. I have to admit it's a little bit discouraging to see "elves are templars of the outdoors" when the docs say that a variety of tribes of different races live in the Tablelands and as a general rule, members of one tribe do not mess with members of another tribe in a way that could bring back consequences on their own tribe.

If the answer to my question is "no" then I have a couple of future character concepts I'll need to scrap. 

The short answer is yes, every tribe usually has traders and people who are more social. Traders, thieves, diplomats. The longer answer is yes-kinda. For example, without referencing specific tribe documentation, if you roll a purely social character you might have a hard time leaving camp in a purely coded, mechanical sense because of the animals around.

From personal experience, alot of the tribes don't necessarily mess with each other outright, or at the local oases. Unless you're known to be a mage. Some tribes are more liable than others to straightup attack you with little to no warning; for some cultural breach that in their eyes have made you a target.

If you're just like, an Araseik guy or gal wearing your clan gear and chilling, you're not very likely to be attacked (the Seik are more likely to be attacked by people who don't know what their gear looks like lmao, I've seen one person think their gear was like, evil looking and attacked a dude thinking he was a sorcerer), but some of the tribes are more territorial than others. Other tribes don't like encroachment too much, to a reasonable extent. Like if you're a Rihali in the north for some reason, you might get the stink eye from the northern tribes. But in Abi'li Pah, like the docs say, alot of tribes don't really overtly mess with each other purely for existing.

Or like the Araseik, leaving camp and seeing a carru breathing down your neck ready to kill your trader pc instantly. Or like how I imagine the Rihali go, walking outside and seeing a scrab.

[Pariah]

Why did this thread about human tribals turn into talk about desert elves.

Because when you discuss desert tribal humans, in this scope, it's always gonna bring some comparison to the other desert tribals.

You can't really have one without the other especially when it goes into the viability of play.  D-elves start out drastically better mechanically than human tribals.  Human tribals are regarded almost as badly as elves in a way when they deal with certain folks socially, or I should say, can be.

They already are desert adapted. The animals that each tribe breeds, roams with, and seeks sustenance from virtually are also desert adapted animals that in some circumstances, are better at roaming than elves.

Escru provide milk, erdlu provide eggs (which are supposed to have as much water as a waterskin, in the inspirational material), sunbacks and beetle and inixes provide travel.

Sure in make belief roleplay ways sure.  I think the things being discussed about the differences in human to elf tribals is mostly having to do with the playability or gamifying aspect of it.  Not who has a richer history or all that intangible stuff.

Things like eggs that virtually are produced or milk I can't actually put into my waterskin is sorta worthless in the day to day play of a character.

I think we tend to get lost in the lore of various characters or people in this game.  One has a distinct coded advantage, someone points it out and discusses it and others go, "But wait, your people raise the only chickens in Zalanthas and have a rich history of giving us eggs!" (Shitty example but you get the idea) Which might be LORE WISE 100% true, but playability wise, absolutely fucking useless unless I WISH Hey can you guys pop me some eggs into existence because we got all these chickens, and staff deams to give a flying fuck to do it.  That's the only way I gain anything from those cool little backstory snippets of lore.

I think when things like this are discussed, we have to have a hard line in what actually affects your character on a day to day (code, real world things that happen) and things that are just nice little fluff backstory bit shit, like "Milk can fill a whole waterskin"

[Miradus]

Open up Madreks for play.

[lostinspace]

So far nobody has mentioned anything human tribals can do that can't be done just as well on a human city character.

I think that sort of sums up my thoughts on human tribals.

I think recently there have been introduction of clan specific gick subclasses for some races, maybe clan specific psionic subclasses could be the unique thing for human tribals.

[Pariah]

So far nobody has mentioned anything human tribals can do that can't be done just as well on a human city character...

That's sorta the point, aside from a tribal accent which anyone can learn with long enough listening to "hillbilly humans".

There is really no benefit to human tribals.  But if you look at d elves there is definitely benefits out the box.

Something to differentiate tribals from "normal" humans would be nice.

[flurry]

This probably isn't very helpful, because I'm not going to be specific unless staff say it's okay. But I played an Anyali ages ago (maybe 2003 or so) and my recollection is that there was a specific coded perk. No idea whether other official human tribes get the same perk, or if desert elf tribes do.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Sometimes I kick this idea around in my head too. Close official human tribes.  Make these changes.  Let players handle that role call rotation i suggested themselves. Approve their docs, let them refill dead and inactive up to 4 cap, don't build stuff they can't CC. Maybe add a generic tiny player tribal camp that has a sleep and storage tent and rotates if they dedicate CC to it.  Let them live and die where they want.  If someone wants to role call for an official tribe, open it up for them.

Can someone fill me in on what CC stands for?

Also, I think tribal dwarves and tribal half-giants need some love.

[betweenford]

Sometimes I kick this idea around in my head too. Close official human tribes.  Make these changes.  Let players handle that role call rotation i suggested themselves. Approve their docs, let them refill dead and inactive up to 4 cap, don't build stuff they can't CC. Maybe add a generic tiny player tribal camp that has a sleep and storage tent and rotates if they dedicate CC to it.  Let them live and die where they want.  If someone wants to role call for an official tribe, open it up for them.

Can someone fill me in on what CC stands for?

Also, I think tribal dwarves and tribal half-giants need some love.

Custom Craft, in this circumstance.

In the request tool it means the same context as your email. Carbon Copy.

[Triskelion]

So far nobody has mentioned anything human tribals can do that can't be done just as well on a human city character...

That's sorta the point, aside from a tribal accent which anyone can learn with long enough listening to "hillbilly humans".

There is really no benefit to human tribals.  But if you look at d elves there is definitely benefits out the box.

Something to differentiate tribals from "normal" humans would be nice.

It's not as if the desert elf race just has pure gravy advantages with no drawbacks. The inability to have high strength means elven melee combat is terrible, even with the recent changes to fighting styles. Mounts can ride considerably further than an elf can run. The awful, outdated system of combat skill progress makes high agility a huge disadvantage in skilling up. Having to fight on foot leaves you susceptible to various combat skills that a mounted character never needs to worry about. Having what amounts to low/middling human strength leaves you unable to carry more than barest minimum of crucial necessities and light, crappy armor. Nowadays, elves also struggle to wield anything bigger than a longknife without penalties. These are serious drawbacks.

There's a strange "down with the elves!" vibe on the GDB lately, and it rarely seems to be based on anything real, just misapprehensions about the code or imaginary scenarios that don't actually take place. I mean, I'm seeing people complaining that desert elves are running amok in the Tablelands when both the Soh Lanah Kah and the Sun Runners are literally closed for play and everyone knows that a decidedly non-elven conglomerate is the unopposable powerhouse of that area these days. Are people just making shit up?

I don't think desert-walking is the solution for human tribals. They would still just choose to ride. That can also explain why they didn't evolve to do it better--they've always resorted to riding animals. It's objectively better. That's why riding is a thing. If anything, a city-dweller might actually walk more than a nomad does. Personally, I think that it's enough of an advantage to just have a coded camp that no outsiders can get into, and which tends to be in an area that is good for hunting and gathering, as opposed to needing to travel from inside a city to wherever a ranger type does their thing.

The problem has been that there aren't enough players to fill these tribes (hence why the human ones went the way of the kank), and there aren't enough things happening in the gameworld that tribal characters of either race have a natural part of, or even an opportunity to hear about unless they lean more towards city play than they really ought to. Coded benefits aren't the solution to that. Storytelling that is relevant to tribes is the solution.

And then I think there should be one elven tribe and one human tribe. There were too many even when this game was at the height of its popularity. Human tribes were never really distinctive and noteworthy enough, except for the Tan Muark in their heyday. It shouldn't be difficult to cook up a world plot that compels both desert elves and human nomads to each band together with the rest of their kin, and that will help a lot in making it worth playing either one.

[betweenford]

So far nobody has mentioned anything human tribals can do that can't be done just as well on a human city character...

That's sorta the point, aside from a tribal accent which anyone can learn with long enough listening to "hillbilly humans".

There is really no benefit to human tribals.  But if you look at d elves there is definitely benefits out the box.

Something to differentiate tribals from "normal" humans would be nice.

It's not as if the desert elf race just has pure gravy advantages with no drawbacks. The inability to have high strength means elven melee combat is terrible, even with the recent changes to fighting styles. Mounts can ride considerably further than an elf can run. The awful, outdated system of combat skill progress makes high agility a huge disadvantage in skilling up. Having to fight on foot leaves you susceptible to various combat skills that a mounted character never needs to worry about. Having what amounts to low/middling human strength leaves you unable to carry more than barest minimum of crucial necessities and light, crappy armor. Nowadays, elves also struggle to wield anything bigger than a longknife without penalties. These are serious drawbacks.

IIRC, almost all mounts are also faster at running than all desert elves, with tremendous amounts of stamina. The recent changes to desert elf endurance place their endurance at lower levels than human endurance, which means they regenerate MV at a much slower rate than they used to, and are more vulnerable to poisons and certain other saving throws.

With current mount regeneration rates, with the feeding code, they also regenerate at pretty insane rates.

Most people don't run their mounts for half the length of the game world in one sitting though, rest for a handful of minutes and continue on, and elves can roam in terrain where mounts can't. They also regenerate at rates better than mounts when the animals find themselves at the lower level of exhaustion.

In short bursts, a mount is better than an elf for traveling. For long treks, an elf beats the mount out. Upsides and downsides.

[Triskelion]

Most people don't run their mounts for half the length of the game world in one sitting though, rest for a handful of minutes and continue on, and elves can roam in terrain where mounts can't. They also regenerate at rates better than mounts when the animals find themselves at the lower level of exhaustion.

In short bursts, a mount is better than an elf for traveling. For long treks, an elf beats the mount out. Upsides and downsides.

I mean, you can ride from Red Storm to Tuluk in one go with a beetle or inix. The only time mount stamina is a concern is if you're roaming around on rough terrain and don't have a destination in mind. You're right that desert elf running is not in fact very fast unless on roads. In rough terrain, an elf can't outrun a snake. It's actually kind of ridiculous. On roads, they're about as fast as an inix.

If it was less awkward to run around with a tent on you, d-elf travel would be very versatile. That's usually not much of an option, though, unless you can justify instantly dropping it anytime there's combat. That may not be the most ridiculous thing in the world, but it is a huge hassle, especially with the frequent crashes lately.

One thing I do believe would suit the tribal human role is to start with a free mount. However, there would have to be an actual go-to tribe for that, as opposed to simply picking the tribal option in your pre-game setup. That's why I think there should be one tribe for humans and one for elves, and all tribals must belong to that one, but the human ones would be free to be either fringe members who left the camp to pursue other ways in life, or proper members who do in fact live as nomads.

[RheaGhe]

Most people don't run their mounts for half the length of the game world in one sitting though, rest for a handful of minutes and continue on, and elves can roam in terrain where mounts can't. They also regenerate at rates better than mounts when the animals find themselves at the lower level of exhaustion.

In short bursts, a mount is better than an elf for traveling. For long treks, an elf beats the mount out. Upsides and downsides.

I mean, you can ride from Red Storm to Tuluk in one go with a beetle or inix. The only time mount stamina is a concern is if you're roaming around on rough terrain and don't have a destination in mind. You're right that desert elf running is not in fact very fast unless on roads. In rough terrain, an elf can't outrun a snake. It's actually kind of ridiculous. On roads, they're about as fast as an inix.

If it was less awkward to run around with a tent on you, d-elf travel would be very versatile. That's usually not much of an option, though, unless you can justify instantly dropping it anytime there's combat. That may not be the most ridiculous thing in the world, but it is a huge hassle, especially with the frequent crashes lately.

One thing I do believe would suit the tribal human role is to start with a free mount. However, there would have to be an actual go-to tribe for that, as opposed to simply picking the tribal option in your pre-game setup. That's why I think there should be one tribe for humans and one for elves, and all tribals must belong to that one, but the human ones would be free to be either fringe members who left the camp to pursue other ways in life, or proper members who do in fact live as nomads.

Humans can easily carry a small tent by the way. And walk. Without much issues.

I've walked in less than 20 minutes between cenyr and Allanak. With just a tent and 2 feet on human stalker.

[betweenford]

Most people don't run their mounts for half the length of the game world in one sitting though, rest for a handful of minutes and continue on, and elves can roam in terrain where mounts can't. They also regenerate at rates better than mounts when the animals find themselves at the lower level of exhaustion.

In short bursts, a mount is better than an elf for traveling. For long treks, an elf beats the mount out. Upsides and downsides.

I mean, you can ride from Red Storm to Tuluk in one go with a beetle or inix. The only time mount stamina is a concern is if you're roaming around on rough terrain and don't have a destination in mind. You're right that desert elf running is not in fact very fast unless on roads. In rough terrain, an elf can't outrun a snake. It's actually kind of ridiculous. On roads, they're about as fast as an inix.

If it was less awkward to run around with a tent on you, d-elf travel would be very versatile. That's usually not much of an option, though, unless you can justify instantly dropping it anytime there's combat. That may not be the most ridiculous thing in the world, but it is a huge hassle, especially with the frequent crashes lately.

One thing I do believe would suit the tribal human role is to start with a free mount. However, there would have to be an actual go-to tribe for that, as opposed to simply picking the tribal option in your pre-game setup. That's why I think there should be one tribe for humans and one for elves, and all tribals must belong to that one, but the human ones would be free to be either fringe members who left the camp to pursue other ways in life, or proper members who do in fact live as nomads.

Agreed, though usually when I was playing in the various tribes, there was a point where everyone would pitch in and try to tame and buy mounts across the world just in case someone else rolled in and needed a mount. The old era of the Tan Muark had mounts they could acquire that were clan specific. More clans should probably have clan specific mounts/burden animals. Not necessarily stuff that's remarkable or better. But stuff like different coloration, branding, etc.

[Patuk]

It's not as if the desert elf race just has pure gravy advantages with no drawbacks.

Indeed not - when compared to desert-bound humans, dwarves, and so forth. They are however pure gravy as compared to city elves, which even the funny recent change of 'city rooms now cost them 1 stam/each' doesn't particularly change.

[Triskelion]

It's not as if the desert elf race just has pure gravy advantages with no drawbacks.

Indeed not - when compared to desert-bound humans, dwarves, and so forth. They are however pure gravy as compared to city elves, which even the funny recent change of 'city rooms now cost them 1 stam/each' doesn't particularly change.

Sure, but the aeroplane is a faster mode of transportation than the automobile. Neither compete with each other, though. I don't think there's any point considering whether desert elves are better than city elves (the former being a karma race, after all). The question was if tribal humans - actual tribal humans, not "hi i'm runner amos of the pink spears who are all dead now except me' - are an attractive enough venue of play to warrant sequestering even more players off into tribes.

[lostinspace]

Unlike elves, humans have no such divide in where they're allowed to play.
A city born human can ride an inix just as far as a tribal born human.

The reason I've never bothered playing a human tribal is because I could play a human citizen and seemingly accomplish all the same goals.

It would be nice if tribal humans had something to distinguish them. But IMO city humans do the human part better, and elf tribals do the tribal part better.

[Kaathe]

Desert elves offer something unique that's only available in a coded tribe.  The uniqueness isn't stronger combat-wise than a human. It's weaker in many ways. But it is unique and fun. Imagine if desert elves could have unofficial tribes and join clans.  I'm sure the population in the official tribes would be lower.

I don't think human tribals need coded uniqueness especially if it came with a limitation to official tribes. I do think they need to be role called in a clump so people can enjoy the uniqueness of a busy human tribe, and then rotated when their population dies off.