2023 Karma Revamp Discussion

[Boggis]

I could totally be reading it incorrectly.  But I thought for each point you had to pass the fair play bullshit

You do have to meet Fair Play every time which means following the basic rules & no negative account notes. I think your question is do you get negative account notes if you get a bit spicy on the GDB/Discord. I don't know the answer to that myself. For me I think you shouldn't (especially if it's just once or twice) but if you're constantly getting pinged on GDB/Discord then you're going to fall foul on the Community side of things and that has the potential to impact getting higher levels of karma.

[Pariah]

I could totally be reading it incorrectly.  But I thought for each point you had to pass the fair play bullshit

You do have to meet Fair Play every time which means following the basic rules & no negative account notes. I think your question is do you get negative account notes if you get a bit spicy on the GDB/Discord. I don't know the answer to that myself. For me I think you shouldn't (especially if it's just once or twice) but if you're constantly getting pinged on GDB/Discord then you're going to fall foul on the Community side of things and that has the potential to impact getting higher levels of karma.

Hi nice to meet you, I'm Pariah, I've had no negative issues with "Playing the game" 99.9% of my issues are people getting upset I'm mean to them or some flavor of that.

I think I had someone freak out once when I said, "Holy shit" in game, but that's really minor compared to folks running around spamming skills, sparring for days on end, never emoting, never thinking etc.

[Veselka]

Another thing — you might make more oversight for new Storytellers (within 60 day probation) to help avoid nepotism and favoritism.

In general I see "be liberal" with handing out karma, but I don't see a systematized check to balance that out. Do Administrators or Producers give approval prior to the karma being added, or is it added on the fly with a note on the player account? Are there guidelines for Storytellers for how often and how to properly add karma? Thanks in advance.

[Usiku]

There are a number of questions in this thread I need to scoop up to answer collectively but it's getting late here and I have a poorly toddler so it will probably be tomorrow.

But since everyone seems to be discussing it.. Yeah, Pariah, you should be absolutely fine with the Fair Play criterion.. I can't see any reason why that one would be an issue for you.

[lostinspace]

I dislike most all of these changes.

I didn't just 'automatically' get to max karma because I've been playing for ten years, I spent eight years playing and focusing on the CRITERIA that was required at that time until staff agreed that I had reached those CRITERIA. I don't play leadership PCs currently because I don't have time, but I did play them and got good account notes for them when I had the time to play them. I'm lucky to manage 2-3 hours a week currently with my work schedule and family life.

Now I'm losing 4+ years of effort (from when I had 20x-30x as much time to play) and being told I can earn it back in a year if I'm good (and play enough to be noticed). Compared to the old system, there are 4 new karma to earn (longevity, communication, magick, racial, leadership, and 'ability to roleplay' being the 6 that exist in both systems.)

The remaining four new requirements are:
Community (OOC stuff? Could map to existing Karma Requirement: Contributes to the game)
Fair Play (Required to reach karma level 2, presumably guaranteed for anyone who had karma before?)
RP Journeyman
RP Advanced

Considering I have already been reviewed and found suitable for the other 6 criteria in the old system, I don't even understand how current Karma 3 players (requires 6 criteria being fulfilled) shouldn't automatically start out at 7 in the new system (6 they had before + Fair Play).


All that aside, I think restricting new players to humans only is a solid change. You have data to support the idea and it's worth a try at least. As long as there's a scheduled review procedure a few months from now to verify if the goal is being fulfilled.

edit: Pointed out that 'Community' criteria in new system could map to 'Contributes to game' in old system.

[MarshallDFX]

I have repeatedly joked I was riding successive karma reforms to max

You've set me back a decade.

[Armaddict]

Honestly, I think we need to do away with the idea of Karma as a carrot or something earned altogether, when it hits a certain level.  I think it works better as a recognition than a reward, and a temporary one.  I think it's easier to manage, I think it benefits the gamesetting, and I think it allows staff to move away from management, approval-board like behavior with punitive reactions becoming dominant.  I think it allows them to feel more in tune with the world they're in charge of, and be a GM instead of an overseer.  What do I mean by that?

I think Karma above a certain point should be about interest and need.

"Armaddict, I saw what you were doing with your Guild boss.  I thought you were really creative with it, and a good balance of antagonism and consideration.  I've unlocked the Krathi subguilds for you, I'd really like to see what sort of role you can make out of them.  I'm not saying what you should do, but I think given some expansion there, you might be able to try something great.  If that's not your jam, let me know, and I'll send these to some other players that have done some interesting things lately.  We'll see what's up in awhile and whether or not you should keep playing them at that time or not."

"Hey Armaddict, we've gotten an influx of special applications for a role that you have the karma for, but rarely play.  We're going to take that off your list for now, and give some people a shot in the roles for awhile, some look really promising.  Thanks for <this character> you played, that exposed a lot of people and I think it inspired some to want to respond to it with their own twists."

"Armaddict.  You are generally pretty good at what you do, but I'm having a really hard time seeing eye to eye with you on how you treat this situation.  I'm going to remove your half-giant karma for a bit and see what you do with other roles and we'll see if this is a fluke or not.  Don't be stressed, these kinds of things are always in flux, and I think we have other players who could bring what the game needs at this time, while your style is kind of already rampant and we don't need it overemphasized."

"Hey Army-poo.  You are poo.  I keep seeing you want to retry a sorcerer, and I'm not going to give you the karma for it, but I really think you should send in a special app.  I'd love to see if there's room for what you come up with, but there may not be.  The world has need of a certain spice right now, and I'm hunting through the candidates I can think of."

"Hey Armaddict.  We noticed you've played -six- straight elven miscreants in the same location, and we'd like to usher you into something new.  Think you could bring what you find fascinating there into a new realm?  We unlocked your desert elf karma and would like to see you in one of the open tribes, or even a rare desert lonefoot.  Regardless, please let your next character be something else, so we can see some different styles in that area you've been trying to pierce through."

Ah, but the favoritism, right?  The -corruption-.  The thing is, I trust the current staff more than I've trusted any staff before, and I've had some pretty big ups and downs with staffers over the years.  I think simply acknowledging that this is a judgment call more than anything else, and letting staff feel more involved with the goings on and allocate roles OUTSIDE of special apps via karma tweaks is a nicer way of directing things gently in the long term.  All it takes is the acceptance from players that we aren't -entitled- to anything, but we can sure provide what's needed in a multitude of different ways.

I'm sorry, but I think the idea of karma as a reward system is inherently flawed for a deep roleplay game.  Over the long term it always results in a sort of inflation of roles, and an inherently down-turned dialogue between players and staff.  If ups and downs in karma are supposed to be more fluid, and that dialogue is supposed to be more easily approachable, I think we should just embrace the subjectivity of it, the idea that it can shift from staff member to staff member, and that the state of the game can call for different things, and that some of us have unique perspectives that might just fit in one place at one time, but not all the time, without that being a grave injustice.

I think we should have the expectation that we can generally play whatever we want, as long as whatever we want is in the general game.  I think there's a lot of room for the staff/player dialogue to not just have hyper-intense evaluations, but much more casual discussions that are like general staff-given kudos and interests; I will never forget the feel goods I started experiencing the first time I had staffers formally requesting me to try out certain roles, with or without sponsorship, and a much looser, less merit-based system of granting karma fundamentally allows that, while still allowing it be taken away from those who cannot handle it as well.

Karma shouldn't be the carrot and stick here.  It shouldn't turn into the purpose of the game.  It shouldn't turn into a deep-seated 'trust level' as much as an idea of 'Hey, I think you could play this out' without it being a travesty if they're mistaken or it was only temporary.  And I definitely don't think you should retain the idea that you can -define- good roleplay for 150 different people who all enjoy different experiences in the game.

[Usiku]

Some questions from mansa answered:

* How should staff observe?

Via monitor, via request tool communications and via animations. All things which STs are doing anyway as part of their core responsibilities.

* Where should they be writing notes?

Pinfos are very helpful! Though they are welcome to keep their own notes about things.

* Is there a reminder somewhere on a player character that they haven't been reviewed in a certain number of days?

There's nothing automated like this. I personally put dates in my diary to review new PCs. If we find that people are falling through the cracks then we could look at implementing a bit of coded support.

* What does liberally mean?

liberally
/ˈlɪb(ə)rəli/
adverb
1.
in large or generous amounts.
2.
in a way that is not precise or strictly literal; loosely.

It means if you see a player do something that demonstrates they fully get the spirit of a criteria, go ahead and give them a karma for it. It should be a frequently used part of our day to day.

* Are there brackets for issuing karma?  What are the brackets?

Do staff members need to agree amongst themselves to promote people to the next bracket, and a single staff memeber can add karma within the bracket? 
Or
Can any singular staff member give karma at any point along the ladder?

The RP criteria are not tied to brackets. A singular staff member (Storyteller+) can assign karma (along with a note for the account) by themselves up to 6. 6 to 8 requires a nod from Admin+ but it shouldn't be a big deal. 8 - 10 will require a look in from the team generally, but not akin to the kind of reviews we currently do which are time consuming.

* Also, the same question, but in reverse for removing karma.

Any removal requires a second Admin+ to agree, whether being recommended by an ST, Admin or Prod a single staff member cannot dock karma in a silo. Removal of karma should also be accompanied by a request to let a player know, let them know why and let them know how it can be regained.

* Can players help give RP Points to characters? (basically, can we reduce the workload of staff and allow players to help give nudges) 

This is not a thing, but you CAN send kudos. Kudos can be incredibly helpful insight for us.

* In the list, you have written:
5 karma
Ruk Empowering, Ruk Creation, Ruk Protection, Vivadu Corruption (spec-app only)
Full Guild Krathi (spec-app only, gemmed)

You need to have 5 karma to special app that.

[roughneck]

It feels arbitrary and complicated, although well-intentioned.

I'm not playing right now, but if I was I don't think it would bother me that much because I would just ignore it. At this point, I ignore most parts of the game that aren't playing my character the way that I want to and in a way that provides me with fun.

When I'm actively playing, and nothing appeals to me, I stop playing for a while. I am lucky to have all of the options so far and good experiences with staff. If I had fewer options would simply mean losing interest at a higher frequency.

I would play if I could do a full-guild, old-style Nilazi with all the old spells. Other than that I'll probably be on break for a while.

I still check the GDB every day because I enjoy temptation.

[Miradus]

Translation:

"The past 3 big karma changes were a mistake so we're doing something else now, which we are 100% sure this time won't be a mistake we'll be undoing in another couple of years."

I'm still very unclear on the problem staff is trying to solve. You're adding a ton of extra work for yourselves, a nebulous, fuzzy system for players to try to figure out, and introducing a major change which is absolutely going to piss the majority off.

[Riev]

To echo Miradus a bit, and my earlier comments:

The resounding response from staff in recent years is that staffing takes up too much time. There is a lot to do, players really dampen the experience because some of us are real jerks (I'll say it, I'm one), and staff really want to be able to play the game too.

This seems like its ADDING more work and requiring MORE time spent with staffing duties than playing. Maybe this could be solved by allowing storytellers to multi-box and have their staff idling in a separate window, but that hasn't even been approved or denied yet.

If its too much work to be staff, this seems like its dumping a truck load of work on staff. I already struggle getting a staff member to respond "The staff you need to continue this plot is not currently online" and now they are expected to be watching me to see if I "get" being a Krathi enough to be able to play an Elkrosian?

[Miradus]

Staff is a little more polite and a little less ham-fisted than when Shalooonsh was around, but nothing I've seen in months has led me to believe staff has enough insight into what's going on as to be able to administrate this complex system fairly.

My character reports, even when I'm in a clan of ONE, seem to result in a whole lot of "when did this happen, what is going on, why?" as well as a host of accusations and misunderstandings.

You guys simply don't watch the game closely enough to be able to do what you're claiming you going to do.

[Krath]

I agree with Riev and Miradus as well. If staff had enough time to do all of the monitoring they are going to be, why haven't they been up until now? If they have why aren't the folks who have not been adhering to the 3 karma expectation been docked karma and spoken to? It feels like being able to have those difficult conversations is the root cause of this change. Rather than deal with the few players that are not meeting standards, the decision is : "Lets make everyone share in the pain and "start over".

The worst part about it is the translation from the 3 karma to 10 karma is not even 1 to 1. I would rather you keep the 3 karma system in place until you have evaluated the active playerbase's current karma level and determined where they should actually fall on the new karma leveling system based on your criteria, and have dialogue with them as to why. Then once you have done that, implement the system, rather than a blanket this is how it is. If you do not have time to do this now, how can you explain how you will have time to do it in the future?

Communication and data in decision making is key.

[Lizzie]

It takes a lot LESS time to randomly give out a karma point to a deserving person, as a Storyteller, than it does to DISCUSS giving a karma point to someone who asks for a karma review.

If Krath is given 2 points by 2 different storytellers in the next week, what are the chances he's going to ask for a review in the next 3 months?

Just knowing that the staff are now enabled to hand out those initial 6 points is a HUGE deal. A HUGE time-saver.

I mean this is actually pretty big.

[Pariah]

If Krath is given 2 points by 2 different storytellers in the next week, what are the chances he's going to ask for a review in the next 3 months?

If his current karma after those two added is <10, I'd say it's 100%, because everyone wants to play the good shit.

[mansa]

...If they have why aren't the folks who have not been adhering to the 3 karma expectation been docked karma and spoken to? It feels like being able to have those difficult conversations is the root cause of this change. Rather than deal with the few players that are not meeting standards, the decision is : "Lets make everyone share in the pain and "start over".

...I would rather you keep the 3 karma system in place until you have evaluated the active playerbase's current karma level and determined where they should actually fall on the new karma leveling system based on your criteria, and have dialogue with them as to why...

Communication and data in decision making is key.

What is wrong with the 3 tier system?



* When going from 1 -> 2 karma, it requires a panel discussion with many staff, and going from 2 -> 3 it was a longer discussion. It didn't empower individual staff to empower players.

* Players fell through the cracks because they may reach 5/6 criterias for 2 karma, but were never given it.

* The system didn't allow people to go down in karma despite no longer meeting the criteria requirements in their play. Karma was only ever reduced due to *huge* rule/doc violations due to the 'weight' of each karma point.

* Not enough variance or nuance.

Example: some 2 karma people should not have access half-giant and some 3 karma people should not have access to elkros or mul.

* This was often spoken in jest that 3 karma players roleplayed poorly.

This is a Karma Re-Adjustment.  Not all players with 2 karma should automatically be able to make half-giants, and not all players with 3 karma should be able to make elkrosians.


Why is this new system and policy better?

* This allows for more variance.

* This allows staff to be empowered to freely give karma (within the first 6 levels)

* This also allows staff to freely remove karma (with admin+ approval)

* This allows for the staff to have a goal of better roleplay, which the playerbase has said is lacking lately.

* This allows for the staff to have better controls over the types of characters we want to see populate in the game.

* This allows for a faster karma accumulation process for brand new players



Where are the holes?

* Criteria of karma promotion - posted

* Frequency of karma promotion - still manual and an issue

* Players that play in off-peak or infrequently that falls through the cracks - still manual and an issue.

[Windstorm]

This seems like its ADDING more work and requiring MORE time spent with staffing duties than playing. Maybe this could be solved by allowing storytellers to multi-box and have their staff idling in a separate window, but that hasn't even been approved or denied yet.

If its too much work to be staff, this seems like its dumping a truck load of work on staff. I already struggle getting a staff member to respond "The staff you need to continue this plot is not currently online" and now they are expected to be watching me to see if I "get" being a Krathi enough to be able to play an Elkrosian?

From what I understand, the 3-karma system winds up requiring a roundtable council meeting with everyone from Gondor to the Jedi Council and everyone weighing in to talk if somebody wants another point of karma. Now somebody can just watch you in a scene and decide you get a karma point. From what I understand, it's a lot less work.

That said, I agree with what a lot of people are saying in that there's probably some (very small) element of the playerbase that's maybe overdue to be assessed in what they add to the game versus what they subtract in the modern world of what we call roleplay-intensive.

That doesn't mean the 3-karma system was fine, either. It needed fixing. Is a solution easy to explain in a few sentences or in one post by a non-PR-professional? No.

But I'm putting my trust in a staff that's not from 2009 or 2015 or 2022 anymore, and which I personally feel is moving in the direction of a sustainable future that will appeal to new players, who are overwhelmingly not here for hack and slash murder gameplay, but immersion, roleplaying, and storytelling.

[Krath]

It takes a lot LESS time to randomly give out a karma point to a deserving person, as a Storyteller, than it does to DISCUSS giving a karma point to someone who asks for a karma review.

If Krath is given 2 points by 2 different storytellers in the next week, what are the chances he's going to ask for a review in the next 3 months?

Just knowing that the staff are now enabled to hand out those initial 6 points is a HUGE deal. A HUGE time-saver.

I mean this is actually pretty big.

Lizzie, I think you misunderstood what I was saying perhaps. I am glad and fully support staff being able to give out the Karma points. This is something they were able to do in the past, then it was taken away, now it is coming back. Great.

My concern was around the 3 Karma to 10 Karma exchange rates. They are going to have to do the work anyway. Rather than lose people and roll it out ala carte, like it is currently proposed, I am asking for staff to do the work up front for the active playerbase/accounts. Usiku said they are going to have to do it anyway here: https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,60029.msg1099662.html#msg1099662

At least doing it up front, the player has an opportunity to make their case as to why they disagree before it happens, rather than after. If staff currently do not have the time to do at least that, WITHOUT the new expectations they are going to have, how can we expect them to be able to do all of the other items listed Post Launch?

This would be the ideal state in my opinion. Implement the new Karma system as outlined below.
Current Karma 1 => 2
Current Karma 2 => 6
Current Karma 3 => 10
Per the new documentation staff are going to be evaluating everyone all the time anyway, have some TRUST in the players and let them PROVE to you that they do or do not deserve the karma. If someone does not meet the expectations of 10, Dock their Karma, explain why and give them a plan/list of specific things they need to improve to get to it.

[Riev]

It takes a lot LESS time to randomly give out a karma point to a deserving person, as a Storyteller, than it does to DISCUSS giving a karma point to someone who asks for a karma review.

If Krath is given 2 points by 2 different storytellers in the next week, what are the chances he's going to ask for a review in the next 3 months?

@Krath ? 100% chance. I'm telling you right now, 100% chance he's going to ask for his karma review every chance he's allowed.

So would I.

Why wouldn't we? Because we just got some? That does not sound like human nature. No no, you gave me a sip of water, I don't care about the delicious lemonade stand you work for.

[Krath]

I agree with what you are saying Mansa. That being said, if staff have views that certain karma accounts should not have full access to the classes available, then come up with the list of all active accounts, what options should be available to their account, why, and set them at the appropriate karma level individually. Have a conversation about why you chose that level and go from there.

Staff need to be able to have these conversations with the playerbase.

[Pariah]

All the good shit is 6-10 Karma from a cursory glance, and I believe they said that's still gonna need some Admin to sign off.

7 karma
Suk-Krath Devastation, Whira Travel, Whira Tempest, Whira Illusion
Full Guild Drovian, Full Guild Elkrosian  (spec-app only, gemmed)

8 karma
Mul
Shadow Stalker (spec-app only), Elkros Vigor

9 karma
Nilaz Anathema, Shadow Dancer (spec-app only), Elkros Havoc

10 karma
Nilaz Void
May specapp Psionicist, May apply for Sorc rolecalls

So all the good shits gonna be that bullshit discussion where they air all their issues with you again.  So while it might speed up people getting to play a half giant or something the good mage shit is still gated behind all that check and double check shit.

Plus it's a little muddy because I could have sworn somewhere Usiku said they are individually reviewing active players for criteria, so there could be people bopping it up right to 10 Karma initially.  Where others get the blanket 2-4 3-6 thing.

I know I've done literally everything in the current system minus the "Be nice" communication point, but here I sit, still at 2 Karma.  Now we are expecting that staff is gonna have a crystal ball and know I'm qualified for 8 or 9 or whatever Karma?

I have -zero- faith in this initial review.

[Lotion]

I think it's important to evaluate what the purpose of karma is. It's not to gate power, as the touched subguilds are absurdly powerful. It's not to gate abilities which require trust, as some of the touched subguilds get the ability to to extremely "i win button" stuff.

[Pariah]

Removed by Moderator.

Whether [Riev]'s sniping at staff or not, it wouldn't be hard to imagine that some of the snipes are right on target.  I mean for every huge blow up of "Staff fuck ups" or "Inappropriate actions by staff." that come to light, how many do you imagine are just missed by the general playerbase because we don't have access to the info.

While I'm all for staff doing whatever they want with multiple log ins, playing whatever characters they want in the actual game and all that, I know that the Karma system is badly enough fucked and they are stretched far beyond the ability to manage it fairly they have outlined in this fever dream of Brokkr's.

I find it hard to side with people who are 100% pro staff OR 100% anti staff.  We need to have a healthy level of skepticism when it regards to staff and their ability to pull shit off.  I mean they have had how many staffing calls, how many staffers quitting because of all this bullshit, probably internal politics and unhappiness would be my guess.

When I was allowed in the Discord, I'd see it from Kaathe for instance where he would say things like, "If I had a say in this." (Paraphrasing but that's the general gist of it).  So the actual staff get frustrated with the red tape.  When I was on the PC, I remember having a conversation with Halaster about how they make decisions and basically it was put forth that every decision has to make it past a majority rule of STs, then get to admin, and if it makes it past them, then the producers had to agree.  So you could have X number of ST, Y Number of Admin all on board to do something and get it veto'd by producers.

That's why shit takes so long to change here, sure some of it has to do with coding, but the actual decisions and direction of the game takes ages to move because they basically need to get through all that bullshit bureaucracy.

So again, my hopes and desires is that they are gonna be able to pull this utopia where every storyteller can swings his dick or tits and get you pushed up to 6 Karma, then every admin will approve you to get to 10 or however they plan it.  But based on various conversations, being present and watching the past, talking to the people in these positions, I'm highly doubtful it will happen.

[Ammut]

Whatever happens with the karma revamp, I'm going to request my karma be dropped to zero.  I'd be happy to earn my way back up the ranks again.

I haven't read each individual reply here, so excuse me if I am repeating what's already been said.  In my experience it took a long time to get any karma.  Going from a 4 tier system (0-3) to an 11 tier system (0-10) would probably make this process even longer.  Given the requirements for each tier, it seems like it may take much more time to acquire karma.

I understand the goal of the game is not to acquire karma.  It's to have fun roleplaying, but being realistic here, people want to play the higher level roles and strive to obtain karma to do so.

I think having a smaller tiered system is better for the players in the long run.  Just my 2 cents.

[Triskelion]

I just really have my doubts about staff noticing and analyzing everyone's play to the extent that this new checklist requires. The burden of staff attentiveness has increased substantially. Thus far, currently and in the past, it has not been my impression that staff maintains enough oversight and scrutiny of individual players to make such a formulaic karma process work. I think indies, off-peakers, and generally anyone who isn't playing a high-profile role is liable to fall through the cracks.