2023 Karma Revamp Discussion

[mansa]

Giving thought to the specific details of the perks of karma, I feel the new system promotes the use of special applications more than the old system.  Since certain magicker classes are higher in the tier, the way to play those characters is directed towards special application process.

I'm okay with this - the special application process is another gate that the playerbase needs to open in order to play a powerful class - and this will put an artifical limit on the number of powerful classes simply because special applications are a "hassel".


Now, into the weeds. I'm curious if there is anything that I gain or lose, going through the special application process.

Under the current system, you can special app for any race/class/subclass 1 level higher than your current level.  In the new system, you can special app for 4 levels higher.


If you have 1 karma in the existing system, you can special app for 2 karma, which are:
Half-Giant, Viv Healer, Viv Creation, Viv Corruption, Ruk Protector, Ruk Empowering, Ruk Creation, Whira Illusion, Suk-Krath Guile, Elkros Vigor
In the new system, you would have 2 karma, and you would be able to special app up to 6 karma, which are:
Half-Giant, Viv Healer, Viv Creation, Viv Corruption, Ruk Protector, Ruk Empowering, Ruk Creation, Suk-Krath Guile, Suk-Krath Agony.

You gain access to special app into Suk-Krath Agony but you lose Whira Illusion, Elkros Vigor. You do not lose any current options. 


If you have 2 karma in the existing system, you can special app for 3 karma, which are:
Mul, Whira Travel, Whira Tempest, Suk-Krath Agony, Suk-Krath Devastation, Drov Shadow Dancer, Drov Shadow Stalker, Nilazi Void, Nilazi Anathema
In the new system, you would have 4 karma, and you would be able to special app up to 8 karma, which are:
Mul, Whira Travel, Whira Tempest, Whira Illusion Suk-Krath Agony, Suk-Krath Devastation, Suk-Krath Guile, Drov Shadow Stalker, Elkros Vigor.

You would lose access to special app into Nilazi Void, Nilazi Anathema, Drov Shadow Dancer, and Elkros Havoc.  You would also lose "guarenteed" access to Half-Giant, Ruk Protector, Ruk Empowering, Ruk Creation, Viv Corruption, Elkros Vigor, Suk_Krath Guile, and Whiran Illusion, which are available to players with 2 karma right now. 

If you have 3 karma now, you would go to 6 karma, which allows you to special app anything, because 6 + 4 = 10.

[Armaddict]

I -do- like emphasis on special apps.  And I do like a lower plateau.  But I'm very wary of this level of specificity that will remain mostly subjective.

If you want subjectivity, embrace it.  Don't try to cover it up with nice sounding things that will leave people feeling cheated after they think they've fulfilled that but you disagree.  Don't try to put it out there as uniform ideas of what good and bad are.  They aren't.  They're very circumstantial, they're very variable from player to player, and they're very prone to consistent inconsistency.

[WarriorPoet]

This seems over complicated.

Restricting the 1 karma races for new players is bullshit.

[Olafson]

Well, been about 20 years since I haven't had max karma (or whatever it's been since karma was brought in).

It does seem to be a deterrent, but I'll still play.  I'm sure I always will.

Retiring in a year and a half, I'd better be up to 10 by then or...or....or I'll play more...with or without the karma.

Seriously though, as long as the karma is flowing freely and correctly, I'm sure this will all work out.

When was it being implemented?  Too much to read at my advanced age (ahem, over 50ish).

[Kialae]

I'm always welcoming of change in this game. I'm however a bit sus on this because I KNOW there are staff presently who lack the ability to put their apparent prejudices aside. Their personal opinions of people will taint this system. I also know that their opinions of how the game should be played, and the methods of roleplay people use, aren't aligned with their views, so you won't be 'good enough'.

[Pariah]

Ok, so I hate it too.

You have a game with dwindling numbers and staff who are quitting fast as hell recently, so you over complicate the system?

Also you're bringing ooc bullshit into the game.  I have been banned and moderated oocly and can't recall any real complaints about me breaking IC rules, in fact most people love to play with me, just don't like me oocly, so as a 2 karma player now I'll be four and literally never be able to advance beyond that due to this silly ooc tie in that has no influence over whether I'll play a mage well for example.

Keep the ic ooc shit separated is my recommendation.  I'm almost better off to delete my forum account so I can just play the game and not worry about moderators moderating me slowing my progress. Ridiculous.

This also reeks of having to pander to both staff and other players to "get to the good stuff" when it comes to roles.  I could almost understand some of it, like half giants and muls because they are murderhobo characters at their core and I've seen some abuse of them in the past few years.  But all the good stuff is gonna be gated behind two spec apps a year still for most of us.  Might as well give up on trying to be a Templar, Psi or Sorcerer.

Does the fair play metric start when the new system goes live or should I just go play something else for three months and dip back in later to see about getting my proper level of karma?

I almost feel like there should be a "JUST KIDDING" added somewhere.

[Brokkr]

In the end, I am willing to shoulder the job of communicating this to you, and the obvious disappointment, anger and overall negativity towards the change, than to subject other Staff members to quite a few very painful conversations with a number of players as their karma is lowered after the karma scale change.  Which would happen, if we set all 3 karma players to 10 karma.  I would rather the rest of Staff get to start using this new karma allocation method in a positive way with the player base, with ample opportunities for increasing players' karma levels, rather than most of the interaction being about reducing player's karma levels.  I think this is an important part of normalizing the Staff side culture to a new framework of awarding karma, more frequently, with less discussion, and with more autonomy to reward good play.

We experienced compression when we went from the 7 point scale to the 3 point scale (1 new = 1 or 2 old, 2 new = 3 to 5 old, 3 new = 6 or 7 old).  A 6 karma player under the 7 point scale wouldn't be a 10 point karma player if we went directly from 7 point scale to 10 point scale.  When you expand a compressed scale into one with more granularity, you have some choices to make.  Bottom of the new range, top or middle. We chose in a way that would encourage positive future interactions between Staff and players, and hopefully build the kind of culture we want around this among Staff.

Changing a culture is hard, and sometimes the sacrifices to do so will not be solely shouldered by Staff.

The 3 point scale was, at least in my opinion, a nightmare workload wise.  Beyond the first point, every point was essentially discussed by everyone.  Gaining a point was a huge deal, and was linked to multiple criteria, rather than just one.  Because of this, many times all the criteria essentially got discussed when someone was moving a karma level. We acknowledge there will be some work to set baseline criteria that matches to karma level, but after that it should be much easier on Staff.  We will be talking about 2 criteria, the one up for discussion and Fair Play.  And in many cases it will not need to be a discussion, since it will not be as big a deal when a Player's karma level changes.

[Pariah]

I have a current karma review and while I knew it would probably take some time, I was sitting here thinking about a "passing the time" or experiment type character concept, I know I'm good at hunting and keeping sekret mages alive so I was debating trying something different just for giggles.

This whole topic has literally drained all motivation from me to try anything knowing I'm gonna be trapped at a water mage in perpetuity regardless of how good I play the game because of some bullshit caveat about ooc communication.

[Master Color]

I'm much more disappointed by the lack of imagination than anything else. It's like 2015 never ended. Why can't we have a few options for bumped skill boosts? Why can't an 8 karma player app in a merchant or noble with house backing? Where's my option to start with a metal weapon? Psionicists should be 6 karma.

Instead you're just gating a few mysterious mage classes that are high in spooky narrative but are quite low in play ability.

Edit: I personally think everyone complaining about getting dropped a peg are missing the forest for the trees. If you want to play the spooky void mage, you can still play the spooky void mage with a special application.

[whengravityfails]

I know this isn't supposed to be a collective form of punishment, but it is precisely what it feels like. I just feel demotivated and demoralized and wonder why I'd try to step out of my comfort zone when the ladder has suddenly shot up so much higher in front of me - and now there's not only so much more karma to go, but the danger of /losing/ karma seems to be much more of a threat.

There's literally nothing at all I like about this change. As much as I enjoy Armageddon, I have a feeling this is a very unwise step and will cost us players for sure.

[Triskelion]

In my initial group of highschool friends, 1 only played elves, and 1 only played dwarves. They would have never played this game if their preferred race was out-of-bounds for them.

I suspect that if they had been limited to humans for their first month or two when they started, they wouldn't have gone "but I will only play elves/dwarves! Screw this game!" Can't claim I knew your high school friends, but my guess is that they had that preference because it was what they tried out first and grew comfortable with. If this karma system had been in place then, they probably wouldn't have opted out because of it.

To be a bit blunt, first-time players usually suck at roleplaying and are very painful to be around, and if their suckiness is then also filtered through the lens of a race that has additional expectations, it just tends to make it worse. You might be able to get a newbie to grasp that elves don't ride or that dwarves care a lot about some specific thing, but barring the rare exception of someone who has played six other RPIs before and knows how to really scrutinize the lore, new players have a very hamfisted approach to the documentation at first.

The question is if we can expect staff to actually notice when someone has sufficiently acquainted themselves with the game to be awarded that first point, and if a new player will have the confidence, or even awareness, to request a karma review when they qualify for it. I'm more apprehensive of that than I am of making them start out with a human character. It's exceedingly rare that a first-timer can play a non-human race and not make it a cringeworthy affair for everyone around them, so I don't mind that part of the change. I just have my doubts about these players getting their first point when they ought to.

[adri]

While this is hardly the closing of Tuluk, less options for play is a net negative and has proven to push people away in the past. Add the looming threat of karma deduction and it's just.. very demoralizing. I'll reserve full judgement for when it goes live, but I don't think this is the right move.

Can we at LEAST remove the desert elf cap when this happens? It's so hard to get a spot to play one and they're not even high karma.

[Brytta Léofa]

As someone who reached max karma about 15 years after my first Arm character, it's hard not to be bummed at having a great swath of options move behind the special-app gate. I'm going to have to let that feeling fade before I can really think clearly about this.

[Suhuy]

Holy shit you guys blocked new players from playing dwarves and elves? Hahah who came up with this? Omg. The timing of this so.... wow.

[Armaddict]

I don't think special apps are anywhere near as bad as you guys are making them.  I also don't think the decompression should bother anyone who isn't going from one high karma role to another with every character in which case I'd guess that this is probably part of why it went this way.  I understand that this feels like a giant step back, but special applications are just an application that gets special attention to detail and can be rejected just like any character that you could make with Karma.  It doesn't usually take weeks, and it's honestly kind of nice to really lay into the character building pretty hard with someone in the case you don't hit it well the first shot.

I think you should be more worried about the listed criterion and examine just how differently you and a staff member could see those things, then realize that it can be stated as 'perfectly clear' to you now despite just how wide of a berth some of those interpretations can be.  I think you're going to start seeing a lot more request tool disagreements regarding 'quality of roleplay', and you might find some fantastic people pushed away...not because anyone actually pushes them away, but because the dialogue itself is offputting to see such strange criticisms of people who feel like strong contributors.

I don't think these specifications are up to snuff.  They just sound good.  They are not good in practice.  They are argument pieces that will prove divisive when actually applied.

[Usiku]

I'm currently reviewing the details, but I wanted to quickly address the '1 karma' human option before family time calls. This is an experimental approach, informed by the data we've gathered. My analysis of new player trends over the last four years shows that we almost never retain those who begin with dwarf, elf, or half-elf characters. There are rare exceptions (though these individuals might be returning players). Given that our docs on these races diverges significantly from standard fantasy tropes, the steep learning curve, coupled with in-game hostility, may contribute to a higher bounce rate among new players who select these races.

The rationale is to allow newcomers a month to familiarise themselves with the game as humans, the most straightforward race. This period will enable them to learn the game's nuances without the added complexity of intricate racial RP.

[dunecrawler]

In the end, I am willing to shoulder the job of communicating this to you, and the obvious disappointment, anger and overall negativity towards the change, than to subject other Staff members to quite a few very painful conversations with a number of players as their karma is lowered after the karma scale change.  Which would happen, if we set all 3 karma players to 10 karma.  I would rather the rest of Staff get to start using this new karma allocation method in a positive way with the player base, with ample opportunities for increasing players' karma levels, rather than most of the interaction being about reducing player's karma levels.  I think this is an important part of normalizing the Staff side culture to a new framework of awarding karma, more frequently, with less discussion, and with more autonomy to reward good play.

We experienced compression when we went from the 7 point scale to the 3 point scale (1 new = 1 or 2 old, 2 new = 3 to 5 old, 3 new = 6 or 7 old).  A 6 karma player under the 7 point scale wouldn't be a 10 point karma player if we went directly from 7 point scale to 10 point scale.  When you expand a compressed scale into one with more granularity, you have some choices to make.  Bottom of the new range, top or middle. We chose in a way that would encourage positive future interactions between Staff and players, and hopefully build the kind of culture we want around this among Staff.

Changing a culture is hard, and sometimes the sacrifices to do so will not be solely shouldered by Staff.

The 3 point scale was, at least in my opinion, a nightmare workload wise.  Beyond the first point, every point was essentially discussed by everyone.  Gaining a point was a huge deal, and was linked to multiple criteria, rather than just one.  Because of this, many times all the criteria essentially got discussed when someone was moving a karma level. We acknowledge there will be some work to set baseline criteria that matches to karma level, but after that it should be much easier on Staff.  We will be talking about 2 criteria, the one up for discussion and Fair Play.  And in many cases it will not need to be a discussion, since it will not be as big a deal when a Player's karma level changes.

You've effectively reduced everyone's karma levels by a large amount, and we don't even get to have a "this is what you've done wrong" conversation. This is not a positive interaction, it's just making everyone feel targeted and powerless.

[CirclelessBard]

To preface this reply, I'm hoping for the best, because I think the general direction this game has gone in the past year has been positive.

As a person who argued for the complete removal of the karma system back when this came up in August, after sleeping and re-reading the plan, I have to say my opinion on the karma system as a concept is currently unchanged. With this system only having been announced a few hours ago, of course there's still time to let things play out and see how they actually work out in practice, and see which criticisms actually pan out to be prescient and which ones are not. I understand that the staff and many of the game's players feel the need to have a karma system because they believe it is a quick and easy way to see how good of a player someone is, and arguing for the removal of the karma system is pointless in that light, so I won't do it.

But the end result of this plan is that 200ish players are going to be split into 11 tiers based on how often they are noticed by staff, and how staff interpret the various criteria alongside how players interpret it. The root problems of the karma system - that it creates hurt feelings whether people try to positively participate in a hobby or not, that the karma system will always invite subjectivity, that unlucky players and off-peak players will rarely be awarded karma, that players who play more hours/day than others are more likely to be watched and noticed, that players in clans with more active staffers are more likely to be watched than players whose staff are not as active - is still there.

And to be clear, that would be the end result of any plan to revamp the karma system that keeps the karma system. The criteria for earning karma is clearer than ever, but the system maintains its reliance on subjective interpretation of the criteria and the RP players are putting out and staff are witnessing, and maintains its reliance on players and staff being online at the right place and time.

Would it be fair to say that staff are generally OK with the subjective nature of the karma system, as a trade-off for having the ability to score or rank a player as a shorthand for noting their RP ability and contributions? Or are staff seeking ways to reduce the subjectivity of the system, and the reliance on high playing/staffing times as a way to maximize interaction with the karma system?

[Usiku]

Alright. I've had two coffees and actually found my glasses now.

The core concept of this new system is its speed and fluidity. It should grant STs the discretion to award karma both liberally and frequently, capitalising on their close interactions and familiarity with players and their PCs. If you are adhering to docs, role playing with the intent to be immersed and play a story and not breaking rules you should expect to a see a pretty swift upward trajectory. Conversely, karma will be deducted for rule violations or disregarding docs, though it can be readily regained. This approach aims to lower the weight/value of each karma point.

I will be candidly honest and say that I am not sure how we should address psionicists and sorcerers during the initial transition period. It is not our goal to not have any of them in the world! With that in mind, I open to ideas. I imagine we will possibly land on them being open to players a bit earlier in the karma scale temporarily.

I'm confident that our new players won't be overlooked. Our team monitors newcomers closely (with active ones actually noted in my calendar albeit under the current system) and our STs are generally wonderful about advocating for them. If necessary, we can explore automated reminders but I don't think it will come to that.

Yes, the design includes a deliberate gating of options behind spec apps by extending the karma scale. This is in response to overwhelming feedback over the last few years that non-mundane characters are overly common. This is a step towards moderating that trend, encouraging players to delve deeper into the role play opportunities these characters demand, rather than selecting them for stat or skill advantages.

Most of the criteria examples we're presenting now are not actually new, they've been the benchmark for a decade, albeit not publicly. By making these examples known, we aim to provide clear expectations, particularly for new players. Yes there is subjectivity but we will be working towards making our understanding of the spirit of each point as consistent as possible. We did explore this in depth, but there is no binary or measurable quantitative way to assess creativity and role play. Again, the fluidity and speed of the system should hopefully smooth out any bumps created by inconsistent understanding across staff anyway, whereas prior that inconsistency may have locked you out of earning a 1/3 value karma point for 6 months dependent on who handled your review, now you may get passed over by a staff member one week but then bumped up the next by another.

This system is not yet active or in place. We wanted to give you a heads up before launching it so that there was some time for any last minute tweaks and for us all the settle in and get used to the idea a bit too.

We understand that adapting to a new system can be challenging and we appreciate your patience as we transition. The evolution of this system is a collective journey, one that we are taking together to enhance the game for everyone and to address many of the issues that you guys have posed to us.

[Suhuy]

My analysis of new player trends over the last four years shows that we almost never retain those who begin with dwarf, elf, or half-elf characters.

Those are players you would have lost anyway. In all likelihood they would not have started with a human rather than whatever option they chose and flaked on. Instead, they'd see a game with quite literally zero options (human only) and move along elsewhere. I can't imagine even contemplating a MUD with all other options restricted. You've got about 8 playable races and new players get only 1!? Sorry, this and everything else about the change reads like a very early April Fool's joke. In fact I'm still finding it hard to believe that y'all are serious about this (now, of all moments in the game's history, no less). Just... wow!

[Suhuy]

I mean just ask yourselves, how important is it that every half-elf you interact with in game dazzle you with some performance of being emotionally conflicted? How important is it for you to never be exposed to a player who's still on that learning curve? Is it really more important than shrinking an already shrinking playerbase? Me, personally, I'll take that focus-less dwarf who writes in all lower case and is still struggling to find his way or some Tolkienesque city elf with graceful features and silken blonde hair. The alternative you seem to be desiring is a new player who's enthused by all these options, then when he goes to roll up a character finds he has only one (one!!?!?!??!) option and summarily leaves instead.

[Usiku]

I think you are misunderstanding the experiment re. gating the race options behind 1 karma. It is not about the players needing to prove anything before they can play them, it is that players who have chosen dwarf, elf or half-elf as their first race have pretty much always dropped off. Possibly they find the documentation overwhelming or they don't understand the hostility they face. Either way, when players start with those races, we lose them.

If we find that this change impacts player retention negatively rather positively, then we will change it.

[dumbstruck]

I came back.

account amanda or amandag, I can't remember. I think the elf that was my first pc (which I did not actually get into) might well still be alive in old tuluk. After all it was made in 2006. And I came back again and again.

I think he understands. And I think those players don't always 'just leave'. Otherwise I would not be here making a stink right now about how much it sucks to lose access to my favorite parts of the game (again, again, AGAIN, just like in 2013).

how many players have to disappear before this is reconsidered? will it matter that by then the damage is done? did it matter with Tuluk? or the sorcerer changes? does it /ever/ matter?

we hear about how staff is finite, but so are players.

[Suhuy]

It is not about the players needing to prove anything before they can play them, it is that players who have chosen dwarf, elf or half-elf as their first race have pretty much always dropped off.

Like I said, you would've lost those players anyway. Focus on the ones you can keep: by giving them options. There's no version of events where one of them is now a skilled veteran player who stuck it out just because you gated every single option from them at first, forcing them to play what you want them to play rather than what they want to. You can't possible believe that.

[undoubtedly]

I think gating non-human races behind the first karma, if historically it shows lower retention for other races started with? Is a really positive move. And the fact that staff are open to revisiting it in a few months time and seeing how it works is great. 

The more I read this proposal to be honest, the more I support the general gist of it. I think there SHOULD be greater control over giving murder hobo players large amounts of power, and they should be proving they're *currently* responsible enough to not abuse it. So I can't see a down side in that part.

The leadership gating really is my only real quibble, but then I haven't had to trawl through mounds of Templar applications from unsuitable candidates.