Suggested tweak to crimcode

[Pariah]

Make people in hiding not have crimcode protection...

Hear me out...

Right now you can see someone in hiding, know they are stealing from someone, even possibly catch them trying to steal from you without them being crimcoded.  BUT you have no way to reveal them except for kill shadow or kill blur.

If you made killing a shadow/blur not a crime that got every guard in the city instant aggro'd to you, you would see less people acting like hiding is an immunity blanket.

Someone shadowing you and you don't like it, kill em and force them to run away or actually fight you.

[Kavrick]

I'd love this because honestly the way crimcode currently works is actually in the favor of the criminals right now.

[Pariah]

I've had criminals that I see their shadow, am watching them, and they are actively unlatching and trying to steal shit from me, but not falling out of hiding, or if they are, are just rehiding fast enough where it doesn't matter.  If we could just mollywhomp people in the shadows or possibly have a command that just hits them once to knock them from hiding, it would be awesome.

[Dune Bunny]

If not a tweak to crim code to attack a shadowy figure, perhaps some sort of 'expose' command that will also lock the exposed sneak out of being able to just insta-hide again for X amount of time.

Code Select Expand

l
A shadowy figure is here.
-expose shadowy
"sdesc has pointed out other-sdesc's suspect actions to those in the area. You are now being watched!
-hide
You can't simply hide while so many eyes are on you.
.... .... ..........
People have lost interest in your presence, you may use hide again.
The ability to just use hide on repeat as a means of escaping being detected has always been one of the things I've hated most in Armageddon, it'd be awesome to have a counter to such. Stealth isn't magic, and PC brains don't reset in a matter of seconds like some sort of Skyrim NPC where they just forget you were there, lurking, possibly wanting to do bad things.

[dumbstruck]

Make people in hiding not have crimcode protection...

Hear me out...

Right now you can see someone in hiding, know they are stealing from someone, even possibly catch them trying to steal from you without them being crimcoded.  BUT you have no way to reveal them except for kill shadow or kill blur.

If you made killing a shadow/blur not a crime that got every guard in the city instant aggro'd to you, you would see less people acting like hiding is an immunity blanket.

Someone shadowing you and you don't like it, kill em and force them to run away or actually fight you.

YES PLEASE

[mansa]

You "lose" your hidden status immediately when you enter combat, and the game code doesn't keep track of "used to be hidden" statuses.


Would you just want the initial strike to be crime-code immune?

[Armaddict]

You "lose" your hidden status immediately when you enter combat, and the game code doesn't keep track of "used to be hidden" statuses.


Would you just want the initial strike to be crime-code immune?

You actually don't come unhidden until your first attack, I don't believe.  Hence why 'shadows' can dodge.  So might be able to make it so that crimcode only kicks in if the target is visible, otherwise you're swinging at random stuff in the shadows!

I could be mistaken.  Might be doable though.

I'd rather just tackle the entire stealth overhaul though.  And crimcode overhaul.  Yes, they're big projects, but they're also areas that could be so much more fun for everyone involved, AND still effective.

[Pariah]

You "lose" your hidden status immediately when you enter combat, and the game code doesn't keep track of "used to be hidden" statuses.


Would you just want the initial strike to be crime-code immune?

Could make it a one time attack with your weapons that knocks them outta hiding, potentially give them a timer before they can insta-hide again.

Or just a command that exposes them.  Hell, I've had people attack me on d-elves, hit me, I flee east, they follow me, they are stuck in movement lag and I hide right in front of them while they are watching me.  Stealth is stupid broken right now.

While I'm just tossing out shots here and don't have the exact answer, I do feel we should have some way to knock them outta hiding and keep them outta hiding for at least a small delay.

I mean, Dragonrealms did it with, point dude
You point out the dude to everyone in the room (They lose hiding and can't immediately hide again instantly)  I don't think it will be super hard to code.

[Armaddict]

I mean, Dragonrealms did it with, point dude
You point out the dude to everyone in the room (They lose hiding and can't immediately hide again instantly)  I don't think it will be super hard to code.

I don't really like the point/expose code.  Particularly not for here, until other changes are made first.  Stealth detection is super common at this point, and no one except elves really hits the 'non-magickal invisibility' status that people talk about.  The idea of having someone Way you with 'I could point you out right now' and it being an actual threat to consider is how important stealth is to the ones that use it.

Instead, you should probably look at what stealth checks are, and even the faulty class design.  When we talked about classes, I pointed out several times about why stealth skills were split the way they were, the hefty sacrifices that had to be made to be good at breakins and inventory manipulation.  Instead we lumped all of those into commonality with good combat potential to boot.

Make latches and unlatches more difficult.  Make stealth checks on actions more difficult.  Make long periods of movement while hidden more difficult.  But definitely do not put the power of it into non-stealthy hands, because with the way people hate the things that involve stealthiness, it will be run into the ground the same way it was in the other games (you'll note that no one there really gives a damn about thieves; it's not because they roleplay it better, it's because it only has impact when people let it have an impact or are completely careless).

[Inks]

Errr....no.

When someone is hiding, they could be amidst a crowd of normal people, blending in, they could be sitting on a bench pretending to be asleep. They could be doing the usual lurking like a ninja.

Hide is just the code but someone could be doing a dozen different things within the world when they use the command. Murderizing random folks minding their own business (according to the world) shouldn't be without crimcode.

That being said: Make hit (bar brawling) available everywhere, and make it unhide people. If you hit the sneaky AoD or someone important then that's on you. Fighting in the streets is still illegal per se, but wouldn't be crimcoded. Problem solved.

Obviously modify the messages for everywhere outside the bar so you aren't throwing people into tables or smashing mugs on their heads. Although that would be fucking hilarious.

[dumbstruck]

Errr....no.

When someone is hiding, they could be amidst a crowd of normal people, blending in, they could be sitting on a bench pretending to be asleep. They could be doing the usual lurking like a ninja.

Hide is just the code but someone could be doing a dozen different things within the world when they use the command. Murderizing random folks minding their own business (according to the world) shouldn't be without crimcode.

That being said: Make hit (bar brawling) available everywhere, and make it unhide people. If you hit the sneaky AoD or someone important then that's on you. Fighting in the streets is still illegal per se, but wouldn't be crimcoded. Problem solved.

Obviously modify the messages for everywhere outside the bar so you aren't throwing people into tables or smashing mugs on their heads. Although that would be fucking hilarious.

I feel like the part that I bolded above is the more elegant solution after seeing it proposed. Reads well, I'd like to see it. Also I think it would be low key hilarious to see it play out. Elf out there shadowing some random Bynner. Bynner turns around and just decks the shit out of them and keeps walking with their bud and tells the other runner, hitching a thumb over a shoulder, "Can you believe that fucking guy?" or some shit. I'm rolling laughing, but it's so believable.

[Pariah]

While I undersand it's an anti-griefer thing right now (crimcode being so omnipresent).  I do sorta wish that it didn't give a fuck if two grebbers flailed around on the street.

It's sorta ridiculous too when you kick a rat and the whole town comes to your defense.

I've long time thought there should be some type of social value coded into the game.  Not just dependent on class, say you're some merchant who's been alive for a long time, dealing with everyone from nobles to regular fucks on the street, you'd have a higher social score than Joe grebber who only sits around and waits for the gates to open.

So stealth is both very easy to fix and very hard because point would probably take a coder five seconds to code, but the hit thing probably not so much.

[papertiger]

I really like the idea of brawl breaking hide. Even as a serial dirty hider. Though brawl is only accessible in certain spots, I really have never understood why. I want a fist fight over the corpses that the templars don't care about, man. That's hardcore.

[LindseyBalboa]

i'm 100% fine if brawling isn't crim-coded as long as the extension of that realism continues and criminal code doesn't trigger if the fight escalates to small, mundane weapons.

nobody comes in to break up a fight when knives are pulled out. there isn't any militia soldier ready to jump in and get stabbed by multiple people instead of waiting it out til it's safer.

the real-world response would be to wait until it's over, or more than likely wait until it's over and then pursue the fled suspect at a later time.

[Pariah]

I too sorta wish it was an after the fact thing.  I have seen some non-combats act straight reckless with people who could kill them barehanded.

If brawling was allowed or fist fighting was allowed there would be less people acting so arrogant in town.

[Riev]

I too sorta wish it was an after the fact thing.  I have seen some non-combats act straight reckless with people who could kill them barehanded.

If brawling was allowed or fist fighting was allowed there would be less people acting so arrogant in town.

I had a scene once, in Old Tuluk, with the infamous Shaloonsh. It was just me and him, and long story short ... his Akai elf pulled weapons on me on a street, in broad daylight, with soldier NPCs rooms away. I knew OOCly if he attacked first, he'd be crim-coded but boy would it have been nice to have a little minor-violence brawling to settle the scene.

[FantasyWriter]

Joke's on you, that shadow is a soldier sneaking a piece of candy into his lover's pocket. You are now Wanted!

[Lotion]

you can target the shadow with a plethroa of commands while under crimcode which can help you gain some sort of favoruable coded position on them without crimcoding yourself
watch
follow
chase
shadow

Also, targeting them with an emote can often have great effects.

[Kaathe]

The situations described here that are truly galling should probably get wished/reported.

I've never played a successful thief. If you are stealing in a populated area from a PC, and fail badly enough, do you get incrimmed or not?

[Pariah]

The situations described here that are truly galling should probably get wished/reported.

I've never played a successful thief. If you are stealing in a populated area from a PC, and fail badly enough, do you get incrimmed or not?

Fuck if I know.  I know that everytime I try and steal from NPCs or PCs I get insta crimcoded.  Yet as I said I've had elves get noticed by me multiple times, and nothing, next to a fucking soldier!

[Armaddict]

I don't think the code takes environment I to consideration, but I could be wrong. There is a critical fail instance where you do not get crimcoded though.

'People notice, but look away.'

[mansa]

I don't think the code takes environment I to consideration, but I could be wrong. There is a critical fail instance where you do not get crimcoded though.

'People notice, but look away.'

That's not a critical fail.
That's a failure but not critical.

Like..

You rolled a 1 - fail with crimcode
You rolled a 2 - fail no crimecode
You rolled a 3 - fail no crimecode no notice
You rolled a 4 ~ 6 - success

[Miradus]

The situations described here that are truly galling should probably get wished/reported.

I've never played a successful thief. If you are stealing in a populated area from a PC, and fail badly enough, do you get incrimmed or not?

There's levels to fail.

One soft fail is no echo, but you can't get into the pocket.
Another is a soft fail that you can't get into the pocket and they notice SOMEONE tried.

The hard fail is you didn't succeed, they noticed, and soldiers nearby noticed.

Once you understand crimcode the city becomes your oyster. Not only can you manipulate it pretty well to avoid problems, but you can also use it to protect yourself.

[Riev]

The situations described here that are truly galling should probably get wished/reported.

I've never played a successful thief. If you are stealing in a populated area from a PC, and fail badly enough, do you get incrimmed or not?

There's levels to fail.

One soft fail is no echo, but you can't get into the pocket.
Another is a soft fail that you can't get into the pocket and they notice SOMEONE tried.

The hard fail is you didn't succeed, they noticed, and soldiers nearby noticed.

Once you understand crimcode the city becomes your oyster. Not only can you manipulate it pretty well to avoid problems, but you can also use it to protect yourself.

Until you do it to a Masterbard and staff were watching so they animate you being noticed even though you weren't noticed.

We'll just disregard the fact I used that masterbard NPC as my personal bank account and it wasn't the first time.

[Miradus]

I don't know shit about Tuluk so I have no idea what goes on up there.

But if staff decides to intervene then all bets are off.

I've seen teleporting, invisible mul assassins teleported to my location and wizkill crossbow bolts doing 120+ damage flying out of nowhere.

If it's just players and code, you can do alright.

Steal is like climb. You can be a master at it and still fail. You may think that McGuffin in someone's pocket is going to be an easy steal but you have no idea that someone coded the object wrong and it's way too heavy for an easy steal and BAM. They got you.

And the meta is, unless you're playing an elf, if you fail a sneak a hide or a steal then your mdesc is going to get Way'd around, pinned in a sticky in the AOD GDB subforum, and the next time you stop moving and are visible southside you're going to get got. If you're playing a criminal elf then you should expect that ANYWAY.

The code around steal and stealth is fine. It's the meta that sucks.

[Riev]

I remember being a cool ass Guilder and decided to take a meeting with a Kadian southside. I chose a different-than-normal bar to go to because I knew I shouldn't be stool-stooping at the Gaj.

Then a VERY BIRD-BRAINS DICK-HEADED (literally lol) TEMPLAR decided to walk by and apparently was like "Huh, that man has a very vermin-like face. RATFACE GET OUT HERE" and then I died.

[Miradus]

I would like to know which account has the MOST CHARACTERS killed in either the jails or the arena.

I bet it's me.

[Pariah]

I will say in all my failed criminals in the past, I think it was because I was trying to steal from shopkeeper NPCs, someone said once in Discord that they are like insta-fails for steal no matter what your skill is.

I've also had some very tolerant templars too.  Because I end up in jail, and they are like, this is five times this week...


But eventually they always end up killing me.

[Armaddict]

I consider it a critical fail because you are openly revealed to the target. They are given your sdesc. But the message after may be a separate roll from the skill, because the message of the failure and what the target sees is the same on that fail whether you're crimcoded or not.

Success, you get the thing, no echoes.
Fail, target receives warning of attempt but no info.
Critical Fail, the whole room receives an echo and sdesc is given in that echo.

THEN, there is a followup message to the thief regarding whether they are crimcoded, either 'You're now wanted!' Or 'People notice, then look away.' The second message is what I'm saying might not actually take surroundings into account, and may just be a separate roll of its own. I can't be sure of mechanics here, whether it's all tied to the skill, if it's a separate roll, but they do seem separated from each other. My point was that if that portion does not care about the environment, it would explain why you've seen that with a soldier in the room.

[Wday]

Push code!
Push shadow (you push someone aside)
Shadow person gets (that person pushes you aside)

None aggro but could cause a role play scene easy

[mansa]

Push code!
Push shadow (you push someone aside)
Shadow person gets (that person pushes you aside)

None aggro but could cause a role play scene easy

This reminds me of the old command, 'touch'.

There was a skill check to determine if someone can touch you or not.  Some players would use that skill check as a pass/fail for power-emoting physical combat, until it was explicitly stated that was not the use of that command.

[Lizzie]

I would like to know which account has the MOST CHARACTERS killed in either the jails or the arena.

I bet it's me.

You are SO GOOD AT IT.