Let's talk about karma

Started by Usiku, August 04, 2023, 02:34:37 PM

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August 04, 2023, 02:34:37 PM
So you may or may not have seen that karma was a topic up for debate as part of our roadmap. There has been a general consensus for some time amongst staff that the current system wasn't fit for purpose but the idea of tackling it is quite an overwhelming one.

We have now discussed it a fair bit our side and we are looking at changing the scale back to a wider one and a system that makes it much easier to gain (and lose) karma, so that overall it is more fluid and more encouraging of maintaining high RP standards at the top end.

We know it's an oft discussed topic player side, but consider this a more formal opportunity to let your thoughts be known on our current karma system and what you think a better future system could look like.

  • PLEASE refrain from targeting the RP of particular players or groups of players. This is not an opportunity to make disparaging remarks about your fellow players. Keep it civil.
  • Please refrain from shooting down the ideas or perspectives of your fellow players.
August 04, 2023, 03:12:59 PM #1
Current State:

1 Karma:



2 Karma:

3 Karma:


Suggestion 1:
I believe that the first point of Karma should be automatically provided to any account that is 9 months old.

Suggestion 2:
I believe having 1 karma should allow players to have access to the touched subclass of Vivadu, Ruk, and Suk-Krath only.

Suggestion 3:
Move the current 1 karma to 2 karma, and 2 karma to 3 karma, and 3 karma to 4 karma.

Suggestion 4:
Make Mindbender Subclass available for people with 5 karma, but create a "limited number of available positions" in the character creation process to limit the number of total active characters.  This should remove the need to special app for it.

Suggestion 5:
Add half-giant and mul to the "limited number of available positions" code.

New Players Guide: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,33512.0.html


Quote from: Morgenes on April 01, 2011, 10:33:11 PM
You win Armageddon, congratulations!  Type 'credits', then store your character and make a new one
August 04, 2023, 03:57:12 PM #2
Let's be honest.  Expecting Staff to subtract karma from players for bad acting will lead to more accusations of favouritism.  Not to mention, there are times of day where Staff aren't the most attentive so bad actors get away with heinous acts that they know they normally wouldn't during peak or more staff-supported hours.

I don't believe putting the expectation of Staff taking away karma to be a realistic one and still expect fairness across the board.  The more human interaction you have with a system, the more prone to bias and error.

To make karma more fluid, reinstate the unpopular karma timer system while expanding the karma levels.  I like Mansa's idea of people generating their first karma after a certain period of time.  I think 6 months is sufficient.

I like the karma timer because it encourages people to take their characters more serious and not be so flippant or careless about them.  Isn't one of the criteria for karma character longevity?

When reinstating the karma timer, make the floor One Karma instead of Zero Karma.

Also, consider raising the karma limit to higher than what you can spend.  If it's going to be five like Mansa suggests, then make the karma max six, MAYBE seven.  This way, if someone does have an accident, they still have a buffer of karma to comfort them.

I've been playing this game for 28 years and as of a year ago, only tallied up approximately 20 days played on magickers.  A drovian that I stored for a sponsored role after 1.5 days, and a Krathi, so I don't feel that I have the experience nor the knowledge to speak to how the karma levels should be broken up when addressing the different magickers.

I do agree that there should be a limit of sorcerors.  Muls should be divided per faction/group, meaning the Byn can have 1-2.  The Crimson Wind can have 1-2.  Things like that.

I still think there should be a limit on rogue magickers just like there is on desert elves.  Maybe even have those divided between north and south or per civilized population.
The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
August 04, 2023, 04:38:21 PM #3
https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Karma

Karma                                                                  (Account)
ArmageddonMUD operates a Karma system designed to open up the more complicated,
powerful and RP challenging roles to players. Karma is simply a measure of trust
that the staff members have in a given player's:

* Degree of maturity and responsibility as a role-player, as evidenced by
playing roles realistically and acting responsibly with the code.
* Knowledge of the game world, and an appreciation of the way in which the
various races, guilds, and so on, interact.
* Role-playing skill, as evidenced by role-playing in such a way as to show that
they are really involved in the game world, and also enriching the game world
for other players.

Staff base their decisions to award karma on a set of categories. Each category
has a list of criteria which players need to meet in order to gain a karma
point. No more than one karma point can be awarded in any one category area; one
must pass six of the seven categories to get max karma.

Categories:
* Longevity
* Good communication
* Ability to roleplay
* Proven understanding of magick and its place in the game world
* Proven understanding of cultural and racial structures
* Contributes to the game
* Leadership

Players may request a karma review every six months. A Karma Review request will
automatically have staff assessing your account against the karma criteria.
Staff may also award (or remove) karma at their own discretion outside of Karma
Review requests.

Karma is not an end in itself. Acquiring karma points is not something you
should be 'striving towards' as a player; the fun that you get out of role-
playing your character should be the primary reward in itself.

Karma is a totally out of character (OOC) concept, and should have no bearing
whatsoever on what happens in the game.

Part of the function of karma is to make life easier for the staff members;
those players who over time have demonstrated desirable qualities will
'automatically' gain access to privileged races and guilds. Gaining karma is
not, however, the only way to do this. If you feel that you have a case to make
about why you should be allowed to play a race or guild that you do not have
karma for you may submit a special application through the request tool. See
'help special applications' for more information, and if you want to see which
options are available at which level, see 'help karma options'.


If there is something like a 'punishment' system to be put in place, I think "temporarily removing karma options" and have it systemically be resolved rather than a request / reminder to manually resolve it.

"You cannot play another dwarf for 12 months" - timeout dwarf 12 months being a jerk and killing people in taverns.



I think there should be better described options on how to gain karma.  Something like 3 examples each - and if one of the examples is "respond to a call for new NPCs in the submissions", then the staff need to make sure they are making submission calls in order for the players to fulfil that requirement.
New Players Guide: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,33512.0.html


Quote from: Morgenes on April 01, 2011, 10:33:11 PM
You win Armageddon, congratulations!  Type 'credits', then store your character and make a new one
August 04, 2023, 04:51:44 PM #4 Last Edit: August 04, 2023, 04:53:20 PM by Windstorm
Adding my voice to the strong belief muls need to be restricted in some way. At least by way of NPC and visible world representation, my impression is that they are an incredibly small and rare population restricted to certain organizations with what's supposed to be rare exception. To keep it brief, muls should be removed from the karma process to be made special-app only. Running into a mul PC in a specific world area shouldn't be, "Oh it's another one. I wonder what it's doing here!" It should be "Wow, it's a mul."

Currently it's, "Oh it's another one," followed by "I guess it's here to kill people."
August 04, 2023, 04:52:52 PM #5
Quote from: Windstorm on August 04, 2023, 04:51:44 PMCurrently, it's "Oh it's another one."

The same can be said for magickers and sorcerers.
August 04, 2023, 04:54:48 PM #6
Sorcerers are now highly restricted.
August 04, 2023, 04:59:09 PM #7
Yet there's always at least one out there causing shit.

If we want to use karma to restrict rare and powerful roles, bump half-giants up to 3 as well, maybe all magickers up by one karma point.

Personally I'm skeptical that the 3 point scale has enough gradation in it for a system like that. I'd like to know what Staff is expecting the Karma system to govern and achieve; it sounds like decisions have already been made.
August 04, 2023, 05:00:46 PM #8
Quote from: BadSkeelz on August 04, 2023, 04:52:52 PM
Quote from: Windstorm on August 04, 2023, 04:51:44 PMCurrently, it's "Oh it's another one."

The same can be said for magickers and sorcerers.

I'd have to defer to people with better perspective on this than me. Being a mostly-city player, I don't honestly see more than a few that I'd call active in cities I've played in around me at the time.

Rogues and gemmed are entirely different roles and can't really be lumped together in terms of population numbers, but in my experience it's a fairly rare occurrence that even more than 2 gemmed magickers are even in the same room, and sometimes, even online.
August 04, 2023, 05:01:52 PM #9
I know why players who have been playing for decades will want players to wait before getting their first karma point. In general, I don't think there should be an extensive wait for the first point. Partly because I think players should have a karma point unless they're very new or otherwise troublesome, partly because staff might be able to decide in half the time if a player stands to be a benefit or detriment to the community. Ultimately the six month karma review should stay to lessen the burden on staff, however.

I'm not terribly worried about the karma system personally, because I'm generally happy with staff feedback on my roleplay. While I would like one point for advanced city start role calls, I don't have a persistent interest in playing magical characters. If I want to play a mul, half-giant, or ridiculously awesome antagonist sorceror, I'll make a special app when I have a quality concept or see a particular niche to fill.

I'd like to know why staff think the current system is failing, though.
August 04, 2023, 05:15:14 PM #10
Quote from: Trevalyan on August 04, 2023, 05:01:52 PMI'd like to know why staff think the current system is failing, though.

There are a few reasons, but I'd quite like to see what players think. I will give one example of something that bothers me, however.

We give karma for meeting certain criteria. One of those criteria is for 'RP', per our guidelines this point is actually pretty easy to achieve and it is usually one of the earliest ones that players will get. They need to show they can inhabit a character, stay IC, use emotes and such.

We then have 3 karma players doing things that staff (and players) will complain is poor RP for a 3 karma player.. for example not paying attention to the virtual world whilst committing crimes. Except we have no criteria for karma advancement that requires that. At no point did a player need to prove that they paid attention and respected vNPCs in their RP to reach 3k.

If we expect our max karma players to adhere to a certain standard then surely that is the standard that the karma criteria needs to require?
August 04, 2023, 05:22:16 PM #11
We should expect all but the newest players to respect the vNPCs and opinions and to shape their actions accordingly. Either to adhere to them, or at at least go forward knowing they're swimming against the current. If player characters aren't expected to at least react to the wider world, then why have it at all? Just fully empower PC main character syndrome and let them set the tone for the world.

However, Lord knows I've had my misgivings about (v)NPC actions and the staff driving them. Really hard to compete with a character that's effectively immortal unless they're purposefully being set up to fail. vNPCs and how they should be used is a whole other topic of discussion in and of itself, really.
August 04, 2023, 05:29:35 PM #12
If we return to regenerating chargen points then I think keeping the costs the same as they were is okay, but allow us to regen more chargen points than we can spend at once. This would allow someone to generate multiple premium characters' worth of chargen points over the course of a long lived character. (if we go that route, we should do this)
Imagine a cap of 2x your karma level. a 1k player can gen 2, a 2k 4, and 3k 6. It allows multiple splats on premium characters but a single long term one could recoup the points. This rewards longevity which is something people seem to highly value.

The upgraded subguilds not requiring karma to be picked also is a REALLY BIG DEAL when it comes to removing the perception of karma jail. Now only the people who wouldn't be caught dead playing a mundane will truly be stuck there.
August 04, 2023, 05:42:26 PM #13
I have many thoughts.

1. Make it a 5-point system instead of 3.
Why:
more opportunity to feel "rewarded" for achievements/improvement.
more opportunity for staff to adjust what goes where if/when the need calls for it, without putting a large chunk of the playerbase in an awkward/unfortunate/anger-inducing situation.
less clumping of so many categories into a single spot.

2. The "first" point should not be for "longevity." ANY singular point should be for longevity. Example:
Someone does an outstanding job playing their first three characters, getting involved, maybe even promoting into a leadership role, proving they understand the game and the roleplay. But they only have 3 months of play total. They haven't earned a longevity point yet. But they HAVE earned a "amazing job + leadership" point. Give them that point. Let them earn longevity when they earn it.
2a: Make that longevity point have some teeth to it. Creating an account 10 years ago and playing for the next two years, then not playing for the following 8 years - means you have no longevity anymore. You lose that point, and need to earn it back. Longevity shows that you've been playing - somewhat consistently for a certain period of time, and are able to get into the current iteration of the game, and flow with the continuity of the current plotlines.  Call it "average of 2 hours per week of ACTIVE play over a period of 6 consecutive months including the current month" should be sufficient to earn that longevity.  People who log in, park their character at the bar, set their script to type "scan on;listen on" every 20 minutes and then go AFK for the next RL hour, and do this every other day for the next six months - don't deserve longevity.

3. Karma-lock dwarves at 1 point. Dwarves are a very niche type of mindset and roleplay need, and it does the game AND new players a huge disservice to hand them the role right off the bat.

4. Find some way to automate the longevity point, so no one has to ask for it - it just shows up when the timer dings.
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.
August 04, 2023, 05:53:24 PM #14 Last Edit: August 05, 2023, 06:48:45 AM by Windstorm
I know rules and the "letter of the law" are important to Armageddon and the way things are run. It's the only concrete way to ensure fairness and even-handed application of things to all players. But it also makes it hard to establish roleplaying standards, and in some ways I do believe the game needs roleplaying standards.

For example, a higher-karma PC should require a description that includes or describes multiple visible features about the PC. I don't think that's a high ask for a player that, theoretically, has the highest level of staff trust available to the playerbase. But I've witnessed this standard not being upheld, because we don't have that standard.

The example I'll use related to this is templars. From what I can tell, due to past incidents templars are under an extreme microscope by the entire playerbase and the staff. They're expected to do a lot, it's a demanding role, and anything they do right or wrong is subject to scrutiny because they come into the game with a lot of power.

This needs to be applied similarly to any role where a high degree of power is a given on entry into the game. This includes certain high-karma options that haven't gotten the same level of scrutiny.

That said, I also understand that's work for the staff. I wish I had a more magic solution personally, but some degree of roleplaying standards needs to be applied the higher the level of staff trust and inherent coded power one goes. When it's not, the bar gets lowered and frankly, everyone has less fun.
August 04, 2023, 06:00:06 PM #15
Quote from: Usiku on August 04, 2023, 05:15:14 PMWe then have 3 karma players doing things that staff (and players) will complain is poor RP for a 3 karma player.. for example not paying attention to the virtual world whilst committing crimes. Except we have no criteria for karma advancement that requires that. At no point did a player need to prove that they paid attention and respected vNPCs in their RP to reach 3k.

If we expect our max karma players to adhere to a certain standard then surely that is the standard that the karma criteria needs to require?

EXCELLENT point, and one that I think needs to seriously be considered for 2 and 3 karma roles/ races if nothing else changes. If it was up to me-

Temp ban/ permaban: Disruptive influence, toxic GDB presence, or unrepentant code/ OOC abuser.
0 points: Very new player, or someone who staff isn't sure will abuse game code/ world privileges. Not overtly breaking the immersion or using exploits. Possibly still learning game mechanics.
1 point: Able to make characters with good grasp of the world. Can jump into combat clans with an advanced start to save time without being completely clueless in their preferred sphere. Understands the setting and generally respects the code, but may have trouble with unfamiliar roles or spheres. Has gaps in their understanding of game mechanics, but can teach 0 point players the basics.
2 points: Detailed knowledge of the world and etiquette in spheres which they apply to. Can be trusted with advanced abilities, races, and knowledge. Never abuses the game code knowingly.

3 points or more: Extremely detailed knowledge of the world, which they can be trusted to separate from their character's knowledge. Can be trusted with serious magical power/ psionics. This level of player is likely going to be held to the same standard as Armageddon staff, assuming they haven't already joined.
August 04, 2023, 06:48:32 PM #16
Personally, I'd rather see the Karma roles being enforced, I.E if someone abuses a role, or shows they do not know the racial, cultural, or setting roleplay expected of the race/role/class, talk to the player, and if they don't listen, bar them from that role (temporarily).
I understand that having a system is easier, but adding more hoops to play fun things, will just make some people people not play at all.
Try to be the gem in each other's shit.
August 04, 2023, 11:20:44 PM #17
I'm going to weigh in, because I feel like there's a lot of things in this post that take time to process. I'm going to run through a few gut responses. And provide 3 potential systems that aren't meant to be complete, but could be thought provoking.

My gut response for right now; Is that Karma as it is, is a dangling reward hook that is both needed and unneeded. And also feels like something that until you have it maxed, takes an inordinate amount of focus away from playing the things you want.

And once you have it, you very rarely consider it. As you earned it and it's just there now.

So in a way, it's needed, it acts as a gauge for player knowledge and RP chops. But also, it's unneeded, as it can ultimately be a distraction from the characterizations of characters you play. And it's possible for a newbie to come in with some real serious chops for RP, for driving plot and conflict, who doesn't discard the world. Who respects VNPC's. Etc.

The whole concept needs a topographical shift in my opinion.

With that in mind.

My gut says there's a vast amount of potential solutions and so I'll focus on just three for right now.

One is just getting rid of it altogether. Double or triple the amount of spec apps for various purposes you're allowed, or maybe categorize them. And allow players to play what they want if they are willing to spec app for it.

You have say, 4 magicker spec apps, 4 racial spec apps, and 3 positional spec apps, a year to play with.

And that feels like it'd be enough. With staff if they don't feel a player is ready to play a desert elf, or if they've seen a player abuse playing a Mul in a way that didn't fit theme. Having the ability to deny, and refund that spec app.

Yes this would be more work on the staff end. But it would allow the staff to contemplate and better fit PC's into their clans and sections of the world.

Second radical shift idea.

Make it temporary. You go through a character, you file 3 bi-weekly reports, it dies horrifically in a massive conflagaration of poison, Guild agents and Kryl, and you give a heavy attempt. At the end of it. Your storyteller and admin get together, and say, "Here's 1 point for this, one point for that, 1 point for good reporting, 1 point for ending it like a badass, you've now got 4 points that will expire after the next 3 characters." You have those point grants max out at 2 points per month the character is played. Up to a max of 5 per character.

You shift around Karma from an unlock to a point buy. Where a touched or Dwarf or Desert Elf costs 1 point. A half giant, thyrzn, or a full guild elementalist costs 2 points. And subguild elementalist costs 3. And the points add up, so you want to be a Thyrzn Subguild Elementalist, that would be a concept you work towards getting the points for over multiple characters all played well. All played consistently.

Third Radical Shift, would just be repeating what others have said so I'm just not gonna elaborate much more, about the whole 3 to 5+ Karma thing. Beyond saying I also believe, that if you go away for more than 4 years, your Karma shouldn't remain. And should be placed on a temporary "hold" if you will. Maybe a knock down to 1 karma.
August 05, 2023, 12:52:57 AM #18
Quote from: RheaGhe on August 04, 2023, 11:20:44 PMThird Radical Shift, would just be repeating what others have said so I'm just not gonna elaborate much more, about the whole 3 to 5+ Karma thing. Beyond saying I also believe, that if you go away for more than 4 years, your Karma shouldn't remain. And should be placed on a temporary "hold" if you will. Maybe a knock down to 1 karma.

Being put down to 1 karma for inactivity shouldn't be seen as a penalty. Day in and day out on the Discord I hear from people who at minimum haven't played the game in months, if not years. At the point of being inactive for more than a RL year, the admins should enforce a lack of major karma roles/ races until you get up to speed with the new look of the world.
August 05, 2023, 01:24:07 AM #19
Removing karma from inactive players, while it makes sense in certain ways, may discourage people from coming back after an absence. Given most players of these are adults with real life lives, I just don't think it's a feasible thing to be applied across the board.
August 05, 2023, 04:12:01 AM #20 Last Edit: August 05, 2023, 04:15:32 AM by Inks
I preferred the old karma system. I had 5 back then, the 5th point was rewarded for my gith RP. So..I approve.
August 05, 2023, 05:00:30 AM #21 Last Edit: August 05, 2023, 05:04:24 AM by Jarvis
As much as I like having as much karma as I have, and as much as I think it will piss some people off, higher graduation (like it was) seems to be the way to go.

3 levels isn't nearly enough to filter out all the tomfoolery, fuckery, buggery, nonsense, funny business, skullduggery, and last but not least, mischief.

And by Tek's balls, please don't bring back the karma timer. People still played what they wanted to play, they just made throwaways or straight up left the game until they could. Not to mention waiting 3 RL months and turning up with stats that could suck the life out of a raisin is deflating for everyone.


Edit: RheaGhe's idea doesn't sound bad. If it caught it correctly, having karma be earned on a by-life basis, aka your next character will be entirely dependent on your current one's """""""quality""""""". I'm not sure how to feel about that or what the implications are. It may overwork the STs to hell and back. But its an interesting idea that beckons thought
The man puts his tongued, grotesque, translucent groin rig on over his eyes.
August 05, 2023, 05:19:35 AM #22
Quote from: Inks on August 05, 2023, 04:12:01 AMI preferred the old karma system. I had 5 back then, the 5th point was rewarded for my gith RP. So..I approve.

The old system was 8, wasn't it?
August 05, 2023, 05:24:19 AM #23
There are some good ideas here and it is pretty reassuring to see similar sentiments to staff reflected in the conversation. Some similar ideas have been floated too. I will say that staff time/energy is a big limiting factor, however, and that is something we have to very carefully balance.
August 05, 2023, 05:43:39 AM #24
less is good, more will put more weight in staff' shoulders on trying to monitor and constantly move players up an down For a reason, I do not and will not make a request for karma review, because I don't sometimes want to hear some xxx staff's opinion on their perspective of how a good RP is, when I believe it is the opposite. And I do not want to get into such an argument. Favoritism and cherry picking exist. In the past, I had been pointed for my errors, whereas my off peak RP was completely ignored. Whereas some other 7 karma players I often seen sparring with turaals bare handed, spamcasting, etc. were ignored because 'uppps, sorry', staff didn't see that happening, what a coincidence. I am against more regulation, more monitoring, more neediness from players to constantly ask for please review my karma. I think the current status of staff handling requests are already putting too much work on their shoulders, and at times it feels like soviet bureaucracy. I just do not want to remain at karma 3 whereas playerXXX is 7 because they constantly ask for karma reviews. More stages mean more prone for error.
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