Subguild Overhaul Questions

[Yelinak]

Good of you to modify (and announce!) the class stat adjustments. Giving +2 strength to all heavy combat classes was silly. It effectively ensured that any and all such characters would roll EX or AI if they weren't unusually young, and while that's not quite as gamebreaking now that strength has been lightly nerfed, it was still a bit excessive. While you can still get an additional +1 from your subclass, this bonus has strategically been placed where it's least profitable, i.e. the shitty original 0-karma subclasses and the 'garbage weapon skill' extended subs. Good of you to not put that bonus on, say, slipknife or cutpurse.

The issue remains that there's one class in particular - enforcer - which is strongly encouraged to effectively trade its subclass for the privilege of starting with its class-defining skill, as opposed to needing to branch it in a way that is more or less impossible for most characters. I appreciate that this is probably tangential to these changes, since they don't really make a difference where that's concerned, but it is nevertheless still a thing. And the fact remains that this class is laughably awful whenever you don't have backstab/sap. Without that, the class is utterly worthless.

I maintain that for as long as entire demographics of characters can't realistically hope to raise their weapon skills to the point of mid-advanced, it isn't reasonable to gate class-defining skills for enforcer behind this threshold. All this really does is make it so that, for all intents and purposes, you must pick subclass x, y or z with this class, unless you're OOC friends with a guy whose absurdly long-lived combat PC can promise that they'll spar with you three times a day for a couple of RL months. Who has that luxury? And is that good for the game, in any case?

These changes are almost perfect, but do away with the idiotic notion that only "exceptional characters" deserve access to class-defining skills without which one's class is pointless. First of all, this idea can be circumvented entirely by just picking the subclass that renders that notion invalid. Secondly, there is no meaningful connection between the quality of sparring that is available to one's character and how "exceptional" they are. It's all pure luck. It's landing in a clan where there happens to be someone of sufficient skill who shares your playtimes and is willing to spar daily. That's all.

My dear friend Brokkr has expressed the opinion that branching backstab/sap on an enforcer should be a privilege reserved for players who stand out as truly deserving. That's just not the way it really works. You can spend in-game years as the greatest mercenary in the T'zai Byn, but if there happens to be nobody in the clan who's got enough defense skill, you're never branching these. Or you can stumble upon some random tent in a desert where a bored idiot has kept his character alive for two RL years, and if he's willing to spar with you, you'll get there in two weeks. There's no sensible connection between skillgains and in-character accomplishments is what I'm saying.

If it's deemed "overpowered" for an enforcer to branch sap or backstab, don't offer subclass options that give these skills from the start. If it isn't overpowered, don't gate these skills behind a grind that isn't available to most characters. You're welcome to adjust the caps of these skills, but the way it works right now, and has since the introduction of the new classes in like 2016, it just does not pass the first bit of scrutiny when it comes to game balance. It's very poor design and makes no sense.

[Usiku]

You could also use an Advanced Start.

[Yelinak]

You could also not gate a class' only reason to exist behind something that requires either an opportunity cost (essentially waiving a subclass), or the expenditure of one's twice-annual special application allowance.

For most character types, reaching that level of weapon skills is effectively impossible, through no fault of their own. There simply won't be anyone they can justify sparring with who can get them there.

Add to this the fact that this is a criminal class that strongly encourages playing in one of the clans with sparring NPCs, which are, if I'm not mistaken, exclusive to the law enforcement clans. How is this not silly?

How will you ever get to mid-advanced in weapon skills as a Guild enforcer? It's just never happening. See what I mean? It's a class intended for a role that is wildly at odds with the way that its design suggests that you play it.

Unless you just choose to accept that the price of playing this class is that you take a subclass that gives you almost nothing except you get to actually have the skill that is the only reason for this class to exist at all.

There is no rational basis for this sort of game design. If an enforcer with 90 sap/backstap is too powerful, there cannot be a subclass that gives it from the start. If it isn't too powerful, it cannot be gated behind an unrealistic grind for those who don't choose the exact combination of class and subclass that lets you have it, with so much skill overlap that you basically sell your subclass for the rights to start with the one skill that makes this class worth playing. It simply doesn't make sense.

[mansa]

...

My dear friend Brokkr has expressed the opinion that branching backstab/sap on an enforcer should be a privilege reserved for players who stand out as truly deserving.
..

If it's deemed "overpowered" for an enforcer to branch sap or backstab, don't offer subclass options that give these skills from the start. If it isn't overpowered, don't gate these skills behind a grind that isn't available to most characters. You're welcome to adjust the caps of these skills, but the way it works right now, and has since the introduction of the new classes in like 2016, it just does not pass the first bit of scrutiny when it comes to game balance. It's very poor design and makes no sense.

You could also not gate a class' only reason to exist behind something that requires either an opportunity cost (essentially waiving a subclass), or the expenditure of one's twice-annual special application allowance.

...

Unless you just choose to accept that the price of playing this class is that you take a subclass that gives you almost nothing except you get to actually have the skill that is the only reason for this class to exist at all.

Well, good news!  Your complaints about classes are on the 2023 Roadmap.  https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,59492.0.html

Long term  (6+ months??)

Website redesign (Ataraxis, Usiku)
Better account management section via website (Ataraxis, Usiku)
Overhaul to specific area of magick (Brokkr, Halaster, Wychokka)
Email Newsletter (Usiku)
New Area (Brokkr)
Spice Overhaul (Halaster)
Special Haldol Plotline part 3 (Haldol with Aesira)
Main guild review/overhaul (Producer Team)

[Yelinak]

Whatever, Mansa.

[Trevalyan]

The issue remains that there's one class in particular - enforcer - which is strongly encouraged to effectively trade its subclass for the privilege of starting with its class-defining skill, as opposed to needing to branch it in a way that is more or less impossible for most characters. I appreciate that this is probably tangential to these changes, since they don't really make a difference where that's concerned, but it is nevertheless still a thing. And the fact remains that this class is laughably awful whenever you don't have backstab/sap. Without that, the class is utterly worthless.

I maintain that for as long as entire demographics of characters can't realistically hope to raise their weapon skills to the point of mid-advanced, it isn't reasonable to gate class-defining skills for enforcer behind this threshold. All this really does is make it so that, for all intents and purposes, you must pick subclass x, y or z with this class, unless you're OOC friends with a guy whose absurdly long-lived combat PC can promise that they'll spar with you three times a day for a couple of RL months. Who has that luxury? And is that good for the game, in any case?

These changes are almost perfect, but do away with the idiotic notion that only "exceptional characters" deserve access to class-defining skills without which one's class is pointless. First of all, this idea can be circumvented entirely by just picking the subclass that renders that notion invalid. Secondly, there is no meaningful connection between the quality of sparring that is available to one's character and how "exceptional" they are. It's all pure luck. It's landing in a clan where there happens to be someone of sufficient skill who shares your playtimes and is willing to spar daily. That's all.

I think enforcers are defined by their Heavy Combat progress and city stealth, but fine. Let me just say that if you haven't gotten your weapon, defense, and all offensive skills up to peak for your class OR at least mid-advanced, you can't really talk about class balance except at the Runner/ Rinther slapfight level. If you think sparring dummies are what turn some characters into combat monsters, I'd suggest trying a character in law enforcement clans. Even do it with an Enforcer, then do what you like to get backstab up. I've seen it done. More than once.

[Brokkr]

1) Will we lose skills that are normally branched for our new subguilds if we already have them?

2) If we should have new skills for the changed subguild, but they're not on our list, what do we do?

When a skill is added to a subclass or class, unless there is specific code put in for that skill to add it on login, no it does not get added.

I think I said this in the other thread, but that is why some of the branching is a little interesting.  Because I tried to make it so if your subclass gets a new skill, it is a branched skill.

Which means you can add it yourself by failing the skill it branches from, if your skill level for that is high enough to branch.

[Trevalyan]

1) Will we lose skills that are normally branched for our new subguilds if we already have them?

2) If we should have new skills for the changed subguild, but they're not on our list, what do we do?

When a skill is added to a subclass or class, unless there is specific code put in for that skill to add it on login, no it does not get added.

I think I said this in the other thread, but that is why some of the branching is a little interesting.  Because I tried to make it so if your subclass gets a new skill, it is a branched skill.

Which means you can add it yourself by failing the skill it branches from, if your skill level for that is high enough to branch.

That's interesting- and actually what I guessed might happen. The reverse, losing skills you once had, came from failing certain crafts after the Assassin class was no longer supported by the code.

And it turns out the answer to my previous question about code was "updated help rules beating Google Sheets"

[Inks]

Hi, what about the subs that are just linear upgrades skillcap level wise of existing subs with a namechange? Why wouldn't those be switched over or will they be? I'm not really understanding here.

For instance why does Thug have the same name, and Physician is just Apothecary with bandage (master) instead of advanced. That doesn't make any sense to me so I would like some clarification, thanks.

You can't exactly say "sorry you picked the wrong name" when the class is more like the extended sub it is merged with than the original. I see a few examples like this.

[Usiku]

Notably, the changes were more intended to be.. "Long term improvements and changes that will be available to players on their next PCs and moving forward with a very small handful of 0 karma players who had been chugging along with notably lesser subguilds getting a nice perk now, just by chance." rather than.. everyone's current PCs will get a little extra something something from the subs changing right now. Mostly due, I assume, to the not insignificant amount of extra work involved to apply it to live PCs, one way or the other, rather than just make it available for future PCs.

That said, it has been discussed and we're looking at some options and possibly Hal is working on something.

[Halaster]

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,59537.msg1094145.html

If you have one of the old retired subguilds, you can ask to be converted to a new/updated one.

[Dresan]

When you consider that raider/slipknife is now a better assassin than the original infiltrator before its update, without needing to sacrificing anything other than perhaps a mage subguild, it does make the design of the enforcer feel like it needs an update.

However, taking a step back,  and looking at all classes holistically, I do feel this is not limited to just enforcers. If you are playing a combat class, or want to join a combat clan, or just want to be able to find RP easier through travel, than being able heading outside the walls is a huge part of experience and content.  Good luck getting a leadership role in a clan that does any sort RP outside the walls if you don't have direction sense and ride.

Yes there are many new subguilds with those skills now, but the importance of picking a class/subguild with those skills needs to be further nerfed, so it becomes nice to have those skills, but no longer a must in order to access important content for combat heavy classes.  I know some work has been done in that direction but I think more still needs to be done, for example direction sense should work a bit more like pilot for everyone, storms around civilized spots need to be toned down (feel free to go nuts everywhere else), and the helpfiles should be more clear on what if any relationship ride/combat styles have on wielding weapons on combat heavy classes.  Basically a fighter/crafter should be able to be as successful in the Byn as raider/anything.

[Brisket]

When you consider that raider/slipknife is now a better assassin than the original infiltrator before its update, without needing to sacrificing anything other than perhaps a mage subguild, it does make the design of the enforcer feel like it needs an update.

However, taking a step back,  and looking at all classes holistically, I do feel this is not limited to just enforcers. If you are playing a combat class, or want to join a combat clan, or just want to be able to find RP easier through travel, than being able heading outside the walls is a huge part of experience and content.  Good luck getting a leadership role in a clan that does any sort RP outside the walls if you don't have direction sense and ride.

Yes there are many new subguilds with those skills now, but the importance of picking a class/subguild with those skills needs to be further nerfed, so it becomes nice to have those skills, but no longer a must in order to access important content for combat heavy classes.  I know some work has been done in that direction but I think more still needs to be done, for example direction sense should work a bit more like pilot for everyone, storms around civilized spots need to be toned down (feel free to go nuts everywhere else), and the helpfiles should be more clear on what if any relationship ride/combat styles have on wielding weapons on combat heavy classes.  Basically a fighter/crafter should be able to be as successful in the Byn as raider/anything.

There is nothing preventing you from being a leader without direction sense, and every race that can ride gets ride to at least a usable level, if not to the higher ends of it that certain classes get.  If you are in the Byn it is very likely you have someone with direction sense, and designating them the 'scout' (leading the follow chain) is as valid as leading it yourself.

You don't need to be able to do everything, especially if you're in a group like the Byn.

That said, Enforcer has needed a good hard look for a long time.  Branching off weapon skills is a ridiculous requirement for any class, even a tier 1 combat.

[Synthesis]

The way backstab seems to work, forcing an Enforcer to master piercing weapons before branching backstab is probably a good thing for the Enforcer.  Taking a subclass to start with backstab (or sap) is being impatient with very little payoff upfront, other than the feelsgoodman you get from having backstab early.  From a dice-rolling statistics perspective, yeah, you can do it, but it's relatively not a great backstab.

By which I mean to say...I can't see the code, but it seems like your % chance of landing a backstab is dictated by your backstab skill, but the % chance of doing truly scary damage is governed by your offense, weapon skill, or some combination of the three.  Just think about it for a moment:  training backstab to mastery is trivial (I can do it in 2 days played in the 'rinth if I minmax training time vs playing time), but there have been very few truly scary assassins. Why? It's probably because it's *not* trivial to train offense and weapon skill.

[Brisket]

Getting a bit too close to Code Chat there honestly.  Let's not discuss the particulars of assassination skills.

[Trevalyan]

When you consider that raider/slipknife is now a better assassin than the original infiltrator before its update, without needing to sacrificing anything other than perhaps a mage subguild, it does make the design of the enforcer feel like it needs an update.

However, taking a step back,  and looking at all classes holistically, I do feel this is not limited to just enforcers. If you are playing a combat class, or want to join a combat clan, or just want to be able to find RP easier through travel, than being able heading outside the walls is a huge part of experience and content.  Good luck getting a leadership role in a clan that does any sort RP outside the walls if you don't have direction sense and ride.

Enforcers are incredible assassins/ warriors with such a combo, but they are by design limiting themselves to cities. It will take multiple IG years to level up your riding under such a plan, assuming you can do it at all before you die in the desert. It's quite hard enough to level ride in your first IG year even when you start with the skill. Raiders have the opposite problem: they're arguably bred for heavy combat leadership outside city walls, but they're uniquely ill-equipped to deal with city assassins without serious luck/ subguild planning.

My advice to simply not care about minmaxing your combat potential in all environments is likely to go unheeded by many, but I also don't care. I don't think any of my characters have even seen a mage yet, only heard of them. Pick a subguild that makes you INTERESTING, not invincible. Because trust me, being useful to other people is way more important for the vast majority of us than being a combat monster.

[Dresan]

If merely depending on someone else were a popular choice, I don't feel we would have gotten the direction sense skill to begin with nor eventually have gotten Raiders class, which is probably still one of the most popular classes currently. I think those feelings applies more to the game now than ever before.

Having ride and direction sense opens a lot of doors for heavy and light combat classes, in many roles and situation. The importance should be toned down a bit more to allow more flexibility in choosing a sub guilds for non wilderness classes. In the same way a lot less people would have gotten a chance to explore the sea of eternal dust if it required the selection of a specific sub-guild.

I am not saying ride and direction sense shouldn't be important if you want to explore the remote corners of the known, but much less important if you want to stick to the beaten well known paths between civilization hubs.

[Trevalyan]

Having ride and direction sense opens a lot of doors for heavy and light combat classes, in many roles and situation. The importance should be toned down a bit more to allow more flexibility in choosing a sub guilds for non wilderness classes.

I count ten subguilds that grant ride AND direction sense at the current moment. If you're willing to skimp, there are considerably more classes which offer at least one of these skills. Alternatively, if you want ride/ direction sense to start, pick a Scout if you think Raiders are too common.

The only way you'd need more flexibility is if what you really want is a magic subguild, or a very specific subguild that would otherwise make your character much more powerful.

[LindseyBalboa]

It took one piece of 'protects your vision in a storm' gear to have no problem navigating the entire Known World for my last traveling c-elf, who most definitely did not have direction sense at all.

The only problems he would run into were with the massive sandstorms that you would generally have wanted to be following someone with master direction sense into anyway.

I don't think he should have been 'better' at anything outside of cities.

I also don't think a fighter/crafter should be 'as good' as a raider/anything when it comes to 'things that happen in the wilderness.'

If a fighter wants to be as good as a raider when it comes to outdoor skills, they should have been been a raider or taken a subguild with equivalent skills; the same way that a stalker that wants to be as good of a swordsman as an infiltrator probably should've taken a guild with swords, or a subguild with one.

[Dresan]

Raiders with the current selection of mundane and magick subguilds are incredibly versatile and overpowered compared to all other classes. 

If the guild thread was any indication (i know the new direction is still discussed) they will need to be removed or nerfed in some way eventually.

[Brokkr]

The immediate solution that pops into my mind would be to make "protections your vision" items only give you a floor in the direction sense skill, rather than be additive.  Or less additive than they are now.

So your person with no direction sense plops them on and they work as they do now.  But your new scout can't plop them on and essentially have master level direction sense out the door, but rather would be the same (or a little better if less additive) than the person with no direction sense skill.

It would also mean that you would not be able to take a subguild with direction sense and get perfect direction sense when wearing such items.

Although I can imagine the outcry, and it seems to be an objective of a not insignificant number of people not to have to deal with the bad weather code at all (ie perfect direction sense).

[Trevalyan]

The immediate solution that pops into my mind would be to make "protections your vision" items only give you a floor in the direction sense skill, rather than be additive.  Or less additive than they are now.

I might be okay with this, as would most of the people whose ceiling is advanced/ master direction sense. It would beg the question as to what sunslits were for, though, except as an empty cosmetic item to anyone with serious direction sense skill.

It would be very hard on people with anything lower than journeyman, though.

[Riev]

I think the floor idea is sound, for the Fighters out there (me) who just want to get to Luirs sometime this century.

I don't want to 100% avoid the storm code, per se, but unless its a level 4/5 storm, if I'm appropriately geared it should be pretty rare to go wildly off track.


(as a note: Is there any way to make it so if its a BLINDING sandstorm, that other mobiles/aggro creatures are also blinded and aren't just biting your head off in a horrific spray of blood because nobody can see except them?)

[Brokkr]

(as a note: Is there any way to make it so if its a BLINDING sandstorm, that other mobiles/aggro creatures are also blinded and aren't just biting your head off in a horrific spray of blood because nobody can see except them?)

We don't give direction sense to a number of things, so they are just as likely to get lost as you.

[Brisket]

(as a note: Is there any way to make it so if its a BLINDING sandstorm, that other mobiles/aggro creatures are also blinded and aren't just biting your head off in a horrific spray of blood because nobody can see except them?)

We don't give direction sense to a number of things, so they are just as likely to get lost as you.

They can still attack us with seeming impunity. Maybe I'm misremembering something though. There's just a level of dark where you can still target stuff and the mobs operate more on a Key . level than a Look level.