Nobles: Let Them Play

[LindseyBalboa]

Nobles need people in the cities to be enjoyable for me.  Last time I played one the city was absolutely dead and there was more going on outside that I didn't have easy access to. Adding more nobles doesn't help with the needing minions part.

Without nobles and people making plots in the city won't every potential minion think "there's more going on outside?"

The plots have to be available first, which is the role of a noble.

[Trevalyan]

Nobles need people in the cities to be enjoyable for me.  Last time I played one the city was absolutely dead and there was more going on outside that I didn't have easy access to. Adding more nobles doesn't help with the needing minions part.

Without nobles and people making plots in the city won't every potential minion think "there's more going on outside?"

The plots have to be available first, which is the role of a noble.

Not 100% sure why you'd quote yourself. While I agree that staff have the most capacity for hRPTs, and nobles can facilitate that, a minion who doesn't help the process along isn't very good at their jobs.

[dumbstruck]

Adding more nobles doesn't help with the needing minions part.

100% this.

People assume.

But there's at least one person (I know because I am this person) who has played aide a cool 2 dozen times and only ever once got allowed to play a noble, which then wound up stored within weeks due to literal life and death RL stuff with a close family member living with them. I know people don't see a connection (for some reason and funnily enough this group seems to be dominated by people who all GET sponsored roles more often), but after a 24:1 ratio, I think it's time I'm done playing aide. Clearly I'm doing a shitty job even though it's enriched both actual pockets and plots when I did it, otherwise why never give me a second try?

I do know this, if I exist to only play underlings, I won't play underlings, because I'm not propping up a separate level of play I'm never invited to participate in. Fuck that. If those people are so good, they should do it for each other on a rotating basis, and I can fuck off and do something other than literal log in to my escapism to play a servant over and over again. THAT'S NOT ESCAPISM.

[LindseyBalboa]

i got sponsored roles pretty quickly in my timeline here and i didn't know a single person on the game and i still only talk to like... 3 people from it.

i don't think there's really some special clique, overall. i've ditched two sponsored roles early on because they weren't good fits at the time, and i haven't felt it held against me.

i do think that there are probably some people who are better at pitching ideas than others, and also people who managed to luck into roles that allowed them to build a history of play that might speak to a staff member looking for something in particular.

however i do know how frustrating it is not to be able to play the roles you want to. there's only some things that interest me, just like everyone else.

i think it would be beneficial if we tried opening up some more 'important' roles whose main contributions to the story are creating plots for other players.

as pros:

-this allows players who feel they've been passed over to try roles they want to try. that's an important step in moving on and reinforcing a collaborative atmosphere because it allows the many veterans who have 10-30 years of experience to move on. +retention

-the roles would be roles that create plots for other people. if played well, they will attract players to their locations to play. +plot development

-there's a lot of potential to bring social players to the game, either new or returning, if there are active social roles being played. +growth

-there are likely players who will takes roles they haven't played before and excel at them, offering staff a larger pool of experience to pick from in future plots. +experience

as cons:

-they could be bad at roleplay

-they could waste pretend noble money

-they could idle all the time or be iso

any in-game issues can be handled pretty easily, especially if there are multiple nobles to get help from at any point.

any out-of-game issues can be handled pretty easily if the player finds out they're not a good fit for the role.

[Trevalyan]

But there's at least one person (I know because I am this person) who has played aide a cool 2 dozen times and only ever once got allowed to play a noble, which then wound up stored within weeks due to literal life and death RL stuff with a close family member living with them.

Looking at one of the last Allanak rolecalls, I know that character longevity means at least something to the people who do noble calls. Don't get me wrong, if your character doesn't die within an RL month in Zalanthas, you probably beat the odds. But it's a factor, and if you store the noble PC the staff had prepared to work their plots around, it's likely you won't get another. It sucks, but it's hard for some people to be social leaders. How it goes.

[Riev]

I'll say it.

Dumbstruck struggles to get the leadership roles because they were a staff previously and didn't really get along. Their personality doesn't mesh with some people so roles are a tough sell.

Also, a lot of roles TEND to go to people that haven't HAD a leadership role yet, opposed to those who have.

[DesertT]

But there's at least one person (I know because I am this person) who has played aide a cool 2 dozen times and only ever once got allowed to play a noble, which then wound up stored within weeks due to literal life and death RL stuff with a close family member living with them.

Looking at one of the last Allanak rolecalls, I know that character longevity means at least something to the people who do noble calls. Don't get me wrong, if your character doesn't die within an RL month in Zalanthas, you probably beat the odds. But it's a factor, and if you store the noble PC the staff had prepared to work their plots around, it's likely you won't get another. It sucks, but it's hard for some people to be social leaders. How it goes.

Not to mention, offing a sponsored role, especially one with any sort of longevity, is seen by some as earning "street cred".   

I'm not saying that sometimes they don't deserve it, but there really -are- other alternatives to pk.

[dumbstruck]

I'll say it.

Dumbstruck struggles to get the leadership roles because they were a staff previously and didn't really get along. Their personality doesn't mesh with some people so roles are a tough sell.

Also, a lot of roles TEND to go to people that haven't HAD a leadership role yet, opposed to those who have.

Yeah, that's fair. Though I do feel like I could add here that it's literally been a dozen years. As in twelve (wrt the having been on staff at one time part).

But there's at least one person (I know because I am this person) who has played aide a cool 2 dozen times and only ever once got allowed to play a noble, which then wound up stored within weeks due to literal life and death RL stuff with a close family member living with them.

Looking at one of the last Allanak rolecalls, I know that character longevity means at least something to the people who do noble calls. Don't get me wrong, if your character doesn't die within an RL month in Zalanthas, you probably beat the odds. But it's a factor, and if you store the noble PC the staff had prepared to work their plots around, it's likely you won't get another. It sucks, but it's hard for some people to be social leaders. How it goes.

The character was alive and already engaging in some plots. But they also brought on another noble in the same house (Oash), who stayed on and was doing well, so when something that was life and death came up with my family, I really thought it wasn't unreasonable to store to deal given it was stage 3 cancer and a few months long to live diagnosis of the family member currently living with me. I also feel like after having explained that while putting in the storage request, if people feel the plots they had for a role on a game is more important than what doctors are saying is likely to be the last time you spend with a family member who is living with you when there is actively another noble there to hold the reins on... I might not be the one with their priorities off.

[Trevalyan]

if people feel the plots they had for a role on a game is more important than what doctors are saying is likely to be the last time you spend with a family member who is living with you when there is actively another noble there to hold the reins on... I might not be the one with their priorities off.

Your priorities were entirely sound, and it is extremely unfortunate timing. I don't think that's the only reason you're not getting sponsored leadership roles, from what I've heard here. Maybe talk to the staff privately?

[dumbstruck]

if people feel the plots they had for a role on a game is more important than what doctors are saying is likely to be the last time you spend with a family member who is living with you when there is actively another noble there to hold the reins on... I might not be the one with their priorities off.

Your priorities were entirely sound, and it is extremely unfortunate timing. I don't think that's the only reason you're not getting sponsored leadership roles, from what I've heard here. Maybe talk to the staff privately?

Oh it's definitely not, but I'm on the team for opening up all the noble houses with a cap of 2 or 3 nobles in each. It's a hell of a lot easier to politic and interact with people where you aren't punching down when you actually have peers IC, rather than 3 in the entire city, spanning across 168 hours of time to fill each week. Will people get through who maybe shouldn't? Yeah, but that was the same case before, too, otherwise people wouldn't bitch endlessly about templars, but it'd be a hell of a lot more fair and create a hell of a lot more RP, and I can't be the only one who this would lure back to heavy city play as there's now at least 3 people who have suggested or talked about this independently recently.

[Trevalyan]

Oh it's definitely not, but I'm on the team for opening up all the noble houses with a cap of 2 or 3 nobles in each. It's a hell of a lot easier to politic and interact with people where you aren't punching down when you actually have peers IC, rather than 3 in the entire city, spanning across 168 hours of time to fill each week. Will people get through who maybe shouldn't? Yeah, but that was the same case before, too, otherwise people wouldn't bitch endlessly about templars, but it'd be a hell of a lot more fair and create a hell of a lot more RP, and I can't be the only one who this would lure back to heavy city play as there's now at least 3 people who have suggested or talked about this independently recently.

That's not going to happen in a playerbase that gets to 40 on good nights. There are nine open noble houses in Allanak alone. There's no shortage of mid-tier manager roles like Sergeants, Merchants, and even Aides to move things along in the social and combat spheres. 3 nobles total for Allanak, 2-3 nobles for Tuluk. And that's assuming Allanak no longer has PC templars while Tuluk keeps their one.

[dumbstruck]

Oh it's definitely not, but I'm on the team for opening up all the noble houses with a cap of 2 or 3 nobles in each. It's a hell of a lot easier to politic and interact with people where you aren't punching down when you actually have peers IC, rather than 3 in the entire city, spanning across 168 hours of time to fill each week. Will people get through who maybe shouldn't? Yeah, but that was the same case before, too, otherwise people wouldn't bitch endlessly about templars, but it'd be a hell of a lot more fair and create a hell of a lot more RP, and I can't be the only one who this would lure back to heavy city play as there's now at least 3 people who have suggested or talked about this independently recently.

That's not going to happen in a playerbase that gets to 40 on good nights. There are nine open noble houses in Allanak alone. There's no shortage of mid-tier manager roles like Sergeants, Merchants, and even Aides to move things along in the social and combat spheres. 3 nobles total for Allanak, 2-3 nobles for Tuluk. And that's assuming Allanak no longer has PC templars while Tuluk keeps their one.

Are there aides? I thought people were skipping hard on city play? I know I am doing so and have been because I've had a lifetime's worth of aides already,and again the numbers suggest I'm not alone in this. There's absolutely a reason I suggested those numbers and it's because it gives people to play what they want to play. If people want to play an aide, they will. Are you having a hard time finding aides? Might be because the role is... not drawing players. Now, someone who isn't married to the abstraction of telling everyone what they can play and actually listens to what people /want/ to play or /will/ play... could probably ask why that is.

Aides are a totally unnecessary role. Cut 'em. Make people who hire with their nobles have pc employees who do specific shit. Someone with a master chef who is the new gourmand for House Fale who helps the noble make over the menu that the npc kitchens serve. Someone who is sneaky but plays (some crap second string) instrument, and is secretly your personal assassin. Stalker tasked with keeping the family's stables, not only cleaning them but going out and taming exotic mounts, etc etc etc.

In a world with the Way there is absolutely a way to interact with rabble without ever dealing with them face to face, so let people who work for noble houses do specific shit they enjoy, and let people play nobles who /actually have peers to interact with/. You are citing a lot of numbers but there is literally no reason why they have to or even necessarily SHOULD stay at those numbers. If city play isn't working, it needs to be retooled, not everyone with input shouted down about why it shouldn't change. If everyone who swore up and down it wasn't broken actually played in those cities, people might have minions then, but even they don't, they play outside and insist that the people who want to play city types but find it unenjoyable after years of the game evolving to make it unenjoyable just suck it up because that's 'how it is'. Sure that's how it is. But it didn't used to be. And when it wasn't, people actually played in those cities.

Edit to add: If you had 3x the nobles you'd have 3x the opportunities to interact with them, and that would cover a wider array of playtimes than if you had 6 pcs, aka 3 nobles, each with one aide, still trying to cover 168 hours a week. Even with 6 pcs who all have different playtimes, every single pc would still have to log in over 20 hours each every week to cover that. Aide culture is unnecessary.

[Trevalyan]

I wasn't citing hard numbers for how many nobles are in the game, but how many nobles the cities might support at the moment. And even then, I could be wrong. I think your vision for the noble sphere in no way matches what the staff wants, and you likely won't have much fun in any part of the role.

[dumbstruck]

I wasn't citing hard numbers for how many nobles are in the game, but how many nobles the cities might support at the moment. And even then, I could be wrong. I think your vision for the noble sphere in no way matches what the staff wants, and you likely won't have much fun in any part of the role.

Well, I'm certainly glad that you know what I will enjoy more than I do. Especially given as I've HAD the role and KNOW what it is. And if I didn't find it enjoyable, I surely would not have been spending MONTHS on about the situation. But thank you. You clearly know better not only what I enjoy playing (somehow) but also know staff's vision for it better than I do, despite actually having been ON staff at a point.

[Tuannon]

I hope there are aides, they are thinking about opening the Atrium.

[digitaleak]

Can we answer if there are currently aides in the cities without leaking IC info? I think it's safest to assume there are people in all roles, and that it should not deter a player from trying to obtain that role anyway. If you want to play an aide, play one and FOIC if there's an opportunity for you to receive or create...

[Riev]

Can we answer if there are currently aides in the cities without leaking IC info? I think it's safest to assume there are people in all roles, and that it should not deter a player from trying to obtain that role anyway. If you want to play an aide, play one and FOIC if there's an opportunity for you to receive or create...

There are people taking Aide and aide-lite positions in both cities.

The Atrium is a way to train aides and 'force' them to interact with one another.

[mansa]

Tuluk specifically:
https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Tuluki%20Roleplay

How does patronage work?
In a distinctly Tuluki practice known as patronage that developed over the years around the Liberation, the enterprising noble attracts commoners with "quid pro quo" arrangements for services. In a typical arrangement, the commoner will perform small services for the noble from time to time in exchange, but will not be pressed to join the ranks of the noble's House (and will receive no wages from the House itself).

Patron-partisan relationships are, however, as varied as those who craft them. Although their basis is always political, they commonly cross into business, with a patron investing in partisan projects and receiving profit shares, discounts, or extended personal services. Other nobles build household staff around a slow stream of partisan recruits, assuming the latter is willing to sacrifice some of their wages for political representation. Some arrangements are fleeting, others life-binding. One patron can attract many partisans (provided they have the personal resources); however, a partisan that takes more than one patron suggests to each that their individual representation skills are less than ideal - a sentiment more wisely kept to oneself. Bards, however, may have more than one patron without such stigma and often do.

Patronage has evolved from a noble-only practice to one that is simply a formal agreement between two parties for the benefit of both. Patronage may be either long-term or short-term. This can take many different forms. The following examples are not meant to limit what can be done by using nobles as examples; they are meant to highlight some possibilities.

Noble/bard	The noble might provide living expenses (obsidian to cover rent and food). In exchange, the bard does all performances with a positive leaning towards the noble, informs the noble of other commissions, and allows the noble to influence the end result of such commissions.
Noble/bard(2)	The noble might provide a stipend of some value to the bard as well as political protection, a workshop, and access to information. In exchange, the bard composes one piece per month for the noble, not taking any commission from Houses X, Y, and Z (per Noble's preference). Beyond these three Houses, the bard does not need to inform of other commissions.
Noble/hunter	The noble might provide equipment (arrows, armor, weapons) and mount. In exchange, the hunter grants noble first look and purchase option (at a discount) to all skins, hides, and herbs the hunter brings into the city. The hunter also provides a detailed report of the hunt with every hunt.
Noble/hunter(2)	The noble provides quarters (an apartment) for the hunter. In exchange, the hunter travels the lands and provides detailed information to the noble for producing a map.
Noble/artisan	The noble provides stipend, tools, materials. The artisan provides their best work to noble on a monthly basis.
Noble/artisan(2)	The noble provides a place to stay and work. The artisan completes a single master-quality item for the noble.
Noble/merchant	The noble provides funding for a trade run. The merchant shares profits and information with noble.

These are only a few examples. The possibilities are virtually endless. Every patronage relationship needs to be agreed to by both parties and stated explicitly in the game during discussions.

The Partisan/Patron relationship is extremely loose in it's requirements, and it doesn't have to classify itself distinctly as a traditional "aide" role within ArmageddonMUD.

[Fredd]

i got sponsored roles pretty quickly in my timeline here and i didn't know a single person on the game and i still only talk to like... 3 people from it.

i don't think there's really some special clique, overall.

may not be one now, but they absolutely did exist. I got targetted by one and quit playing last year, essentially. But the staff that was centered around is gone, and suppossedly that whole Clique is too. But I still wont talk to anyone ooc anymore. Doesn't matter if I've known you for 15 years, I probably didn't even say Hi to you when I came back. The shit they pulled was to much.

I think you hit the nail on the head with your last post about needing minions. When i played a Noble you were kinda lucky to get 1 loyal minion. Literally everyone was tied to another group/leader. There wasn't enough "neutral" types to influence.

Don't get me wrong, it was still my favorite role I ever had. But that was a constant frustration.

Edit: i do want to state that the numbers I'm seeing online now, throughout the day, look higher on average then even just a year ago.  So that's a good sign.

[Trevalyan]

There are very good roleplayers out there. That doesn't make them qualified to be nobles. In some cases, it doesn't make them qualified to be aides.

I don't know if the Atrium's up again, but it also doesn't matter. A major consideration for a lot of people trying to break into noble play should be "would I be happy with a single decent aide and magical noble pay?" If the answer is yes, I can make something happen, congratulations- you'll likely manage to fund plots, justify your House's influence, make contacts, and develop the game world.

If you need three other people working under you directly, I've got bad news for you. You'll be lucky to find a decent friendship/ rivalry with one of the other aides, never mind talking Bynners/ independents into joining up with you. We don't have the playerbase to make noble houses into major factions, as far as I can tell, and it's not smart to cannibalize the clans which are doing well in the game right now.

[Tuannon]

I'm curious what the magical noble pay is.. Because it doesn't happen.

Snarkiness aside, I agree that it is a good policy to let 'new' people play nobles. I also agree that the player base is recovering but not to a point where it is viable for a noble to have more than one direct servant just yet.

If nothing else, some of the newbles that I have had the pleasure of playing with have brought new insights and interpretations of documentation that I have enjoyed.

[Knight of Knives]

Newer players often tend to need other PCs to get stuff done / learn things, which is very conducive to a noble role.

[Fredd]

Newer players often tend to need other PCs to get stuff done / learn things, which is very conducive to a noble role.

New players actually read and re-read the docs too. Some of my favorite templars and nobles were kinda new I think. (i know a couple told me they were)