Karma Timer Proposition - Gemmed

[Kestria]

Unpopular opinion.

In a world where magick is seemingly to become the norm. Perhaps instead of making it harder to combat it.. simply accept it and change the worlds view. Magick has always been around.. there wouldn't be half as many issues with magick if the OMG MAGICK BAD was slowly peeled away to just be like.. ok.. so.. they are a growing thing now.
Cities have it, templars have it, kings have it.. tribes have it, [REDACTED] have it..
In thousands of years this world hasn't shifted its stance at all.. I'd say ease the overwhelming fear of normal witches.. focus the fear on nilazi, sorcerers, mind worms, defilers etc.
Then it wouldnt be an ooc issue for people either.

On a side note, I wonder how much hate I will get for saying this haha

[SpyGuy]

I'm beginning to think you don't come to these discussions willing to hear others' opinions Gravity.  Anyone who has a problem with the state of magic in the game, if they express their opinions, they 'don't want to let others have fun'.  Now they're 'in hysterics'. If they offer solutions they're 'uncreative'.  Please show some respect to people who disagree with you.

This is not new.  Staff released similar numbers in 2020 that showed about the same 30% playing magickers.  And that was BEFORE Tuluk reopened.  The balance outside Tuluk is way worse now.  Does this mean these people are bad players?  Not at all. Does mean my enjoyment of the game is in the gutter because it doesn't follow to its own documentation of magick being rare and special? Yes.

And before someone accuses me of whining about karma roles I can't play, I have three karma and have for years.

My problems with magick in no particular order:
-The subclasses offer a huge power boost with limited cost.  They can greatly outshine mundanes and have for many RPTs and other events.  They don't even need meat shields because subclass mages can be combat gods themselves
- Hidden gick storylines are trite and repetitive at this point.  First couple were  fun but when it's 10+ on a character it's draining
- A majority of PCs in a play area being mages means two things.  First, it's unlikely any mage hate will be RPed because in general I don't see mages hating other mages.  Apparently staff even had to add coded effects to Nilazi interactions because these 'trusted' players decided they don't need to follow the docs. Second, any mundane will be overshadowed in combat/stealth/etc among those magickers unless they happen to fill a needed niche
- It's unavoidable if you leave Tuluk's walls.  Didn't used to be that I commonly saw magick on my PCs but it sure has been common these days.  Meeting multiple sorcerers on a PC, a dozen friendships broken because they were a witch, random sightings outside. All very common in my experience to the point they're not at all special
- I've seen enough poor play from high karma roles to no longer trust that the karma system is an effective tool to enforce following documentation
-'Are we the only ones who aren't witches?' should not be a conversation I'm having on multiple characters.  Think playing a gemmed is isolating?  Try playing a magick hating commoner outside Tuluk.
- Magick was to me an issue in 2020 when I came back after a long break. My first time seeing it after subguild changes and it was everywhere.  I left the game because it no longer interested me to see magick become so commonplace.  Tried again then left a second time with the same bad taste in my mouth.  Have now come back a third time because the game was dying but it may be this is no longer a place for players like me. All that time staff have continued to buff mages and put them at the center of play.  No one should be surprised about half the other problems the game has


In conclusion, I'm not trying to shit in your cereal.  Glad you like mages and the game now.  Staff, particularly Brokkr and Halaster, took a shit in my cereal by buffing mages to the point where they dominate the game.  Enjoy mage mud folks


Edit:  To Kestria's point, Apocalypse MUD did magick better.  Only full guilds.  By documentation you could be buddies with a Viv and even work together.  Armageddon's documentation really doesn't allow this right now.  Should it?  Be better than what we have now imo

[JohnMichaelHenry]

Unpopular opinion.

In a world where magick is seemingly to become the norm. Perhaps instead of making it harder to combat it.. simply accept it and change the worlds view. Magick has always been around.. there wouldn't be half as many issues with magick if the OMG MAGICK BAD was slowly peeled away to just be like.. ok.. so.. they are a growing thing now.
Cities have it, templars have it, kings have it.. tribes have it, [REDACTED] have it..
In thousands of years this world hasn't shifted its stance at all.. I'd say ease the overwhelming fear of normal witches.. focus the fear on nilazi, sorcerers, mind worms, defilers etc.
Then it wouldnt be an ooc issue for people either.

On a side note, I wonder how much hate I will get for saying this haha

co
This makes sense to me. Especially with a smaller player base than we are used to. Already divided by race, region and status, let's make the path to finding allies easier.

[DesertT]

The path to finding allies -is- already easier.  Rogue gicks aren't a scarcity.  When they find each other, it's like, "Hey Pal, let's hook-up and get each other's backs!"

If there were a way to make playing a Gemmed more attractive, like lowering the karma-cost to play one, maybe that would help even things out a bit.  I mean, there is a whole QUARTER of Allanak dedicated to just them.

[mansa]

This was brought up in January 2023 here:
"Reinstating the karma timer" - https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58900.0.html

There was a major thread 15 years ago that wrote about, "The game world is written so that magickers are rare and feared, but I keep seeing people become friends with magickers."
"Reminder of what your character knows and feels" - https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,28005.0.html

Karma itself was implemented to limit the number of characters with magicker skills.
...Once a certain threshold was passed, the limiting factor of Karma wasn't doing its job, so...
Karma timer was created, to help limit the number of characters with magicker skills.
...But that had a side effect of players just waiting out their karma timer, and not engaging with the game until they can play again.


The big question is:
Who is allowed to have the most powerful characters in the competitive, player-versus-player, permanent character death game.  And how do I win?

[Krath]

If there were a way to make playing a Gemmed more attractive, like lowering the karma-cost to play one, maybe that would help even things out a bit.  I mean, there is a whole QUARTER of Allanak dedicated to just them.

This is not the issue. The issue is Gemmed are slaves and have strong restrictions. People would rather play tribal/rogue gicks because while they are solo, they are not slaves.
Additionally, Anytime gemmed try to get together and do something for themselves, not related to templarate or a noble house, it is shutdown or big bad templar starts forcing them to do X Y or Z. If a group of rogue gicks wanted to do something, they could without being forced to do what they do not want to.
And no, making player clans and warehouses only available in Nak and Tuluk is not the answer.

[Krath]

Maybe this is a different thread...Next Point, with the multiple spells removed from the different magickers: Empower, summon, raise dead, paralyze, etc full guild magickers are Full Guild Magickers LITE and in 90% of the cases much much weaker than a mundane magicker subclass.

There were, or seemed to be, less magickers in the past because it was extremely hard to get them to a point where they were great. Right now, the magicker subclasses plus a full mundane main are extremely OP. Taking in account the new combat slowdown and damage nerf, every reason to be a mundane, from a Playing to win PVP  and PVE standpoint, is effectively gone now.

A suggestion I heard was this...
1. Remove magick subguilds
2. Reinstate full magickers, with all the spells, with the option of the zero karma subguilds

[HazelHomewrecker]

So the general consensus is Karma Timers bad.

Halaster said he's not going to put them back anyways.

Others have agreed that there is too many witches rolling around.

Do we look at limiting them like d-elves in tribes?  Won't that be similar to Karma timers?

Or do we do nothing for fear certain people won't like anything?

...There's not a 'general consensus' that the karma timer being removed is a bad thing. A lot of people enjoy it being gone, I enjoy it being gone, I know other people who like not having to wait anymore.

The issue is that people may or may not be abusing the system in ways that I personally haven't witnessed, but have heard of plenty of times. The solution really should just be handling those specific bad eggs, all it would take is for staff to take a nice long look at who is doing what, and move from there. There's no need for the Karma timer to be re-added, because the only thing that will do is make people toss in throw-away characters that get stored the very hour that their karma regens.

In my personal opinion, at this point, you shouldn't be able to make a magic PC immediately after playing one, and the same should apply to all 2+ karma (excluding 1 karma thing like elves because who cares about elves amirite) options. Maybe that could be an alternative to these blanket adjustments?

[DesertT]

This is not the issue. The issue is Gemmed are slaves and have strong restrictions. People would rather play tribal/rogue gicks because while they are solo, they are not slaves.

You're proving my point.

The Gemmed need more incentive to be played.  Playing a magicker where it's supposed to be extremely rare to play a magicker should be supported and have a perk.  The role isn't as fun as a rogue gick, typically.

Putting limits on rogue gicks while allowing a larger, sizeable gemmed population is more thematic in my opinion.  Magick out in the wild, very rare.  Magick in Allanak which has dedicated a whole Quarter of the city to them, sensible.

We're already doing this for delves, tribals, even noble houses and merchant houses have player number restrictions.

But rogue gicks currently do not.

And don't say that we should punish those that are taking advantage.  I think a majority of players have exceptions that they take advantage of to their play, whether it's skill timers, OOC knowledge, grinding or otherwise.

Too many folks would be losing karma and then crying out for other aspects of abuse to be equally punished.

This is one of the reasons why I liked the karma timer, but that's been taken off the table.

[Krath]

I hear what you are saying. I think we are on the same page, I believe, based on my experience both as Gemmed, ungemmed and mundane, reducing the amount wild magickers being allowed at a given time will push more players away and I do not think it will change the problem of no one really wants to play gemmed. From an OOC standpoint, I believe, it would push people further away from wanting to play gemmed.

Outside of House Jal and Oash, there is no real purpose for gemmed pcs in the game. Even then, those nobles have to fight tooth and nail for magick based plots and "quest" as it is.

[dumbstruck]

I hear what you are saying. I think we are on the same page, I believe, based on my experience both as Gemmed, ungemmed and mundane, reducing the amount wild magickers being allowed at a given time will push more players away and I do not think it will change the problem of no one really wants to play gemmed. From an OOC standpoint, I believe, it would push people further away from wanting to play gemmed.

Outside of House Jal and Oash, there is no real purpose for gemmed pcs in the game. Even then, those nobles have to fight tooth and nail for magick based plots and "quest" as it is.

I mean, they're also the new elf caste in Allanak as everyone who stopped playing city-elves stopped. And we all know how Allanak /loved/ city elves and how /enjoyable/ that was for the people playing. (Not at all playing into why DESERT elves wound up capped, for sure, as people who liked playing elves that weren't miserable, too, just migrated to where it made them happy to do it)

[Lotion]

If the system is "population limitation", then the players either wait until other players have been removed from the game and take their spot, or they will choose another open spot in the game.

lol instead of pking for shanty town apartments in luir's we'll pk for gick slots

[whengravityfails]

If the system is "population limitation", then the players either wait until other players have been removed from the game and take their spot, or they will choose another open spot in the game.

The issue is that I truly do not think this will happen and a fair amount just will sit out until something they want to play is open again. If I had to wait out playing a rogue magicker, I would have chosen a delf - but now they're capped. My fallback would be a tribal, but now the PC tribes ones are soft capped too. After two tries at playing a Gemmed and hating it (Templars, of course) there's no way I'm doing that again without some major changes. So at that point it becomes "Play something I don't have any appetite for or work on the huge backlog in my Steam library while waiting for something interesting to open up".

The idea of a mage hunter subclass secret society sounds like the best option yet. It adds to the game's choices, it does not subtract. It adds an element of danger.

 

[BadSkeelz]

The idea of a mage hunter subclass secret society sounds like the best option yet. It adds to the game's choices, it does not subtract. It adds an element of danger.
 

This is what Templars and Nilazi are supposed to be doing instead of trying to kank them.

[whengravityfails]

The idea of a mage hunter subclass secret society sounds like the best option yet. It adds to the game's choices, it does not subtract. It adds an element of danger.
 

This is what Templars and Nilazi are supposed to be doing instead of trying to kank them.

I agree, but that's a whole different problem. I'm still astounded that coded repercussions had to be added to discourage Nilazi-elemental magicker buddy interaction. That just seems like such a no brainer. Templars, meh. I've got nothing good to say so I won't.

[Mellifera]

Nah. The Templars already got a massive army of witches to play with, don't make them more.

Strongly agree with this, and disagree with the statements that gemmed need more incentives. As it stands there have been changes which have placed gemmed vastly above any rogue when it comes to potential magickal power, which is incentive enough in my opinion. They also get the advantage of a guaranteed magickal community, the protection of city walls and law, and the possibility of clanned employment where they can actually utilise their magick. These are all huge advantages and incentives over a rogue mage. Their restriction primarily lies in being controlled by the Allanaki templarate, which in my experience most people are fine with given the many benefits otherwise. If people are playing gemmed less than they were before, I think that's probably a consequence of people playing in cities less in general. Mages are already a minority among PC's. Templars are also close to being sanctioned sorcerers with extra martial skill on top, they hardly need more walking nukes to play with.

The idea of a mage hunter subclass secret society sounds like the best option yet. It adds to the game's choices, it does not subtract. It adds an element of danger

There is absolutely no shortage of staff backed, powerful, armed organisations which seek to very publicly hunt and kill mages, that element of danger is already very present. Every society on Zalanthas kills mages. The two major cities have templarates and militias with supernaturally empowered individuals who are incentivized by lore and practical gain to hunt mages when they can find them, and every other clan frequently has their own reasons to kill mages they discover. Many indie characters will kill mages if they discover them too, for no reason other than the fact that they're mages. Even the tribes that have their own magick roles (which are typically hard capped around 2) essentially never extend that tolerance to outsider mages, and that non-tolerance is often fatal as well. We even have a whole element devoted to nullifying and murdering mages. If you play a mage, rogue or not, tribal or not, there is an ever-present knowledge that you may be slaughtered at any time, by essentially anyone, anywhere.

Outside of House Jal and Oash, there is no real purpose for gemmed pcs in the game.

I honestly don't understand why people often bring up the 'purpose' of roles in the game. We're playing for fun, there's no real purpose behind any sort of character. They exist because they're fun to play and create roleplay. Or are you saying more that there's not a lot for them to do? I'd disagree with that too, they essentially have as much to do as any indie character with the addition of magick plots, and they even have the opportunity to be clanned, like you said, into Jal and Oash.

On another note, I think a return to having only full guild mages might genuinely be a good option, especially if they had access to normal subguilds, especially the extended ones. People are concerned about balance, and giving mundanes their own advantages that mages don't have, and that's what having only full-guild mages once did. I feel the same about psions frankly, and sorcerers of course have already seen some return to being able to have full guilds. If all mages did have access to full guilds, that may also create a situation where it would be more reasonable, in my opinion, to create more incentives to play gemmed characters, like cheaper karma costs. At the same time I understand this movement to subguilds has been a thing for a long time, and staff have their reasons for it, and are probably understandably resistant to throw it away.

I don't think reintroducing karma timers or adding caps is the answer. We'll only push people away. People should be able to play the sorts of characters they want to.

[Inks]

I've seen people creating back to back similar personality pk concept magickers. I was always against removing the timers. Not just for gemmed. Either way though. Meh.

[Pariah]

So the general consensus is Karma Timers bad.

Halaster said he's not going to put them back anyways.

Others have agreed that there is too many witches rolling around.

Do we look at limiting them like d-elves in tribes?  Won't that be similar to Karma timers?

Or do we do nothing for fear certain people won't like anything?

...There's not a 'general consensus' that the karma timer being removed is a bad thing. A lot of people enjoy it being gone, I enjoy it being gone, I know other people who like not having to wait anymore.

That's exactly what the consensus is, that karma timers BEING IN THE GAME, are bad.

You got all worked up over agreeing with me.

[Riev]

So the general consensus is Karma Timers bad.

Halaster said he's not going to put them back anyways.

Others have agreed that there is too many witches rolling around.

Do we look at limiting them like d-elves in tribes?  Won't that be similar to Karma timers?

Or do we do nothing for fear certain people won't like anything?

...There's not a 'general consensus' that the karma timer being removed is a bad thing. A lot of people enjoy it being gone, I enjoy it being gone, I know other people who like not having to wait anymore.

That's exactly what the consensus is, that karma timers BEING IN THE GAME, are bad.

You got all worked up over agreeing with me.

What, the borg consensus? A consensus is a general agreement. There is no general agreement on the karma timers one way or another. Everyone has their opinions.

It is not a consensus just because it agrees with your views.

That being said, it agrees with mine, too. The issue is that some people want the restriction, so how DO you restrict them without taking away choice?

[HazelHomewrecker]

I also think I just misread what Pariah said in the moment, it's no big deal.

[Pariah]

I assumed it was that you were high.

[Pariah]

So the general consensus is Karma Timers bad.

Halaster said he's not going to put them back anyways.

Others have agreed that there is too many witches rolling around.

Do we look at limiting them like d-elves in tribes?  Won't that be similar to Karma timers?

Or do we do nothing for fear certain people won't like anything?

...There's not a 'general consensus' that the karma timer being removed is a bad thing. A lot of people enjoy it being gone, I enjoy it being gone, I know other people who like not having to wait anymore.

That's exactly what the consensus is, that karma timers BEING IN THE GAME, are bad.

You got all worked up over agreeing with me.

What, the borg consensus? A consensus is a general agreement. There is no general agreement on the karma timers one way or another. Everyone has their opinions.

It is not a consensus just because it agrees with your views.

That being said, it agrees with mine, too. The issue is that some people want the restriction, so how DO you restrict them without taking away choice?

Sorry, I'm using both Discord chats and gdb to see that almost everyone seems to think "Karma timers bad."

Sure there is opposition, there always will, but I don't think it's out of line to say MOST are like, "Fuck you don't take away my ability to play what I want when I want."

[MarshallDFX]

I removed some posts from this thread because it was becoming adversarial and rude.  Please treat your fellow community members with respect.

[Armaddict]

What if instead of karma 'spending', we instead used something like 'cooking'? 

You create a mage character.  You can include elements of randomness.  You can choose to have them enter with a gem.  You have modifiers to the 'cook time' based off of whatever factors we decide, i.e. Do you have an active character that is being played, have you played 3 mages in a row, are you choosing your elements or choosing random elements, what is your karma level, etc.

This is a process separate from your current character.  We just remove the mage options from those.  Once 'cook time' is complete, you are free to play the 'cooked' character.  We could allow or disallow multiple cooked characters in queue.  We could tweak so that you can get bonuses to cook time, but you manifest after a set or random period of time, etc.

It just seems like rather than JUST limiting the number of mages or whatnot, we could automate a system that rewards mundane play (via cook time modifier), allows you to plan for characters in advance, and rewards variety.  I dunno, it may end up not that great, but it's something that I don't think I've seen proposed before and it feels like it might be more tolerable knowing that you're making your next mage even as you play something not-a-mage.

[Riev]

If I have a character cooking, then as soon as its ready, I probably will store my current character.

If I have a special app that I know is coming, often times I won't play because all my energy is in this 'new' character I spent a lot of time preparing for.

Even the 'cook' time is going to make me not want to really play, because I'd rather not play than try to force the RP on a character I don't care about.