Re: Mage Social Standing in Ask the Staff

[BadSkeelz]

Regarding https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,59344.msg1091733.html#new

I want to argue that Halaster is both right and wrong that Gemmed aren't on the social chart. (https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Allanak%20Hierarchy)

Gemmed are "slaves of the Templarate." They have the fanciest collar in the Known. Their social standing might be very low, but fucking with them is equivalent to fucking with a Templar's property. They're probably not going to like it. They receive a lot of antipathy from the populace not only because they're gross magickers, but also because they're favored pets who appear to "Have it easy" within their appointed Quarter. Most citizens would love to shank a Gemmed, but given that's exceptionally dangerous on a physical and spiritual level it's better to ignore and avoid them.

[Tuannon]

The example I used and was involved in was dismissed as being kind of pointless. But an Oashi magus has an extra layer of being a noble's 'possession' which is the wrinkle that people just didn't read. This is why I don't get into discussions about the state of the world anymore, good way of getting ignored or railroaded or gaslit.

As the Adjunct in chief to Lord Afro Beikon Oash, I have more heft than a Byn Sergeant of any stripe or race and said Sergeant is disrespecting both me and the Lord Oash at the same time but being given the option to back down honourably and not doing so. So I fail to see why a reasonable course of descalation is COMPLETELY ignored on the basis of 'lol dramaz'.

[GreenTransient]

If you scroll down the page on social hierarchy it does specifically cover gemmed magickers.

Gemmed Magickers:
By law the gemmed elementalist is considered a commoner within the City of Allanak. In practice they are generally looked at as lesser. Generally finding rank below that of even Rinthis and breeds. The status of the Gemmed is much more nuanced - their worth and status is derived from those that they serve. A Gemmed Magicker employed by a Noble House will find that their position is elevated. While they do not have the same status as their regular peers, the fact that they have the support of Nobility and often the ear or trust of a Noble lends to a lift in their social ranking.

So seems like, the lowest of the low with the possibility of maybe being treated equal with a non gemmed citizen if behavior warrants it.

[Riev]

Your worth in Allanak is whatever your betters decide it is. If a Lady Borsail decides that this common, dusty 'rinther has something to them and is worthwhile? They're more important than other 'rinthers. To suggest they aren't is to doubt Lady Borsail's acumen.

Same with gemmed. They're nasty, lowest of the low, capable of turning your genitals into sand just because you looked at them weird. BUT Lord Templar Hardnose says this specific gemmed is useful to him, so are you going to suggest this gemmed is still worth of being killed or cut off or whatever? Are YOU going to tell Lord Templar Hardnose that he's wrong?

[Usiku]

Screwing with your random Amos gemmed is not the equivalent of screwing with a Templar's personal property. Most Templars should not give a crap how gemmed are treated and most gemmed will go about their day to day lives never interacting with the Templarate at all, or mostly trying to stay out of their view and under their radar. If anything, the Templarate are the ones likely to treat them the worst. Gemmed absolutely should not expect any protections at all.

This is slightly different for gemmed who might be employed by a Templar specifically or by Oash or another noble house. In that case they will have as much protection as their 'employer' is willing to go out on a limb to give them. However, a noble or Templar seen to be too over protective of a gemmed or lavishing them with too much attention and genuine care could very well end up being poorly judged for it by their peers, so it's a risky business. Even gemmed who find themselves protected publicly by their status should expect snide sneaky treatment, silent judgement, unfair prices, dirty looks, people crossing the street to avoid them, whispered insults etc.

[Windstorm]

Status and what people can get away with is determined by whomever has your back and how much power they have. That's life. That's realistic.

And further, much's there may or may not be complaints when someone's going against the grain a little bit: many things in life, and in Armageddon, are solved by winning. You see it in sports or in entertainment all the time.

If someone's winning, accomplishing the things they set out to accomplish, doing right enough and bringing home the trophies, passing up credit and cash to the people above them, it matters a little less how they're getting it done.

That also doesn't mean they're not facing unique, daunting, and difficult obstacles in making those achievements. So don't take things in isolation. When you're looking in from the outside, there is often a bigger picture you can't see all the details to.

[Tuannon]

So basically, you'll never be in the right so don't bother? Right-o

[Windstorm]

Usiku: for what it's worth, I disagree.

It should be possible to achieve. Winning, effort, and influence should count for something. Fame should count for something. Success over the levers in place to work against anyone should be possible.

I absolutely, personally, do not believe ceilings should be low. In the environment generally, sure. Some things are in stone - the world can and will still hate gemmed. But an individual should not be barred from gaining respect or rising above the typical, nor from making a mark on the world that was well-earned. Even the possibility is rare enough, so let the world have heroes. Let people be storied.

A PC's deeds should affect the world's view of them. Period.

[Pariah]

Gemmed is not something you should ever be in hopes of becoming "accepted" in.

You'll always be that sub-human, weird abomination. (Even if you're actually human).

I think too many people try to play the exception to the rule when it comes to gemmed, "But I'm the cool one!" or "I spent five years playing this guy, people should like me." type rationalization.

You're still just a commodity to be used by your noble or Templars.  You're not really even a person in the general scope of the theme.

[Riev]

I don't care if you were directly responsible for somehow saving the entire city as a Gemmed. You're still a gemmed and you shouldn't have that kind of power and now I'm more scared of you and more likely to just kill you.

[Windstorm]

Gemmed is not something you should ever be in hopes of becoming "accepted" in.

You'll always be that sub-human, weird abomination. (Even if you're actually human).

I think too many people try to play the exception to the rule when it comes to gemmed, "But I'm the cool one!" or "I spent five years playing this guy, people should like me." type rationalization.

You're still just a commodity to be used by your noble or Templars.  You're not really even a person in the general scope of the theme.

Not acceptance. But achievement. Maybe it sounds similar, but I just mean there should be levels that are not quite the same as the ground floor. Let people rise.

That said, I don't otherwise disagree with anything you said.

[Pariah]

Gemmed is not something you should ever be in hopes of becoming "accepted" in.

You'll always be that sub-human, weird abomination. (Even if you're actually human).

I think too many people try to play the exception to the rule when it comes to gemmed, "But I'm the cool one!" or "I spent five years playing this guy, people should like me." type rationalization.

You're still just a commodity to be used by your noble or Templars.  You're not really even a person in the general scope of the theme.

Not acceptance. But achievement. Maybe it sounds similar, but I just mean there should be levels that are not quite the same as the ground floor. Let people rise.

That said, I don't otherwise disagree with anything you said.

Gemmed rise in the way Weapons are more desirable.

In a fight I'd gladly use a knife if it's all that's available.

But if a gun is on the table, gun is always gonna be the choice.

As a gemmed you just move from knife to gun status, still an object that only is used for a purpose, not a person.

[Windstorm]

Historically I think a lot players have held this complaint, that Armageddon's had sort of an issue with players feeling like they can't achieve, go anywhere, or make much of a mark on the world.

I just don't think gemmed should be restricted from this. The role is, in its ways, restrictive enough.

[Pariah]

Short of playing a slave or a mul slave in say the Byn.  Gemmed is super restrictive by design.

Don't like that? Play a Sekret Witch.

[Windstorm]

Short of playing a slave or a mul slave in say the Byn.  Gemmed is super restrictive by design.

Don't like that? Play a Sekret Witch.

I guess I disagree again here on principle.

The entire difference in a gemmed is that they're publicly showing what they are and trying to live a life that way. I don't think that should be the ceiling - I think it's dispiriting in a role that's already low-ceilinged and full of vulnerability to some of the PCs and roles (templars) that people already have the very most fear of. A bulk of regions, PCs, and play areas outside of Allanak will kill a gemmed on sight. Almost no one I can think of is instantly more hated, unable to hide the cause of that hate, more vulnerable, or more targetted in their role than the gemmed.

Playing one simply shouldn't be any more miserable and isolated than it already is, trust me. The idea, the prospect of achievement and not being a shitstain beneath everyone's boots is one of the only lights at the end of the tunnel that I hope myself is at least possible. Some people don't want it to be, I get it. But without that, at least in my mind, I don't think I'd bother playing one. There aren't any other avenues to living a life of not being murdered-instantly-on-sight out there.

That someone who's achieved can walk down a street without wiping spit off of their face in the only place they can play without being instantly killed I don't think is that demanding. I think it's a reasonable accommodation for not only the PC but the players of those PCs. I'd prefer if it could be achieved and earned at least, since it surely can't be just given - and I do get why that is.

With that in mind, I'd also personally like it if a templar felt plenty allowed to value, trust, protect and reward their own most valuable assets without being critiqued over it. Templars already don't have the agency you might think they do and they're under a microscope for their full playtime already, which is crowded with people making demands and asking for personal attention of them from all sides, above and below.

I'll also remind that there's been a lack of gemmed and city players in general the game's sort of been fighting against for awhile. I simply disagree that they need to be stomped on harder or kept even closer to the floor than they are.

But, I'm also mostly assuming also that the wheel of hate is just on this right now and that's fine. I'm gonna step away from discussing it really.

I just ask that a certain broader perspective and playability be kept in mind.

Thanks for keeping it civil though. I'm always glad to discuss within certain bounds.

[Pariah]

Short of playing a slave or a mul slave in say the Byn.  Gemmed is super restrictive by design.

Don't like that? Play a Sekret Witch.

I guess I disagree again here on principle.

The entire difference in a gemmed is that they're publicly showing what they are and trying to live a life that way. I don't think that should be the ceiling - I think it's dispiriting in a role that's already low-ceilinged and full of vulnerability to some of the PCs and roles (templars) that people already have the very most fear of. A bulk of regions, PCs, and play areas outside of Allanak will kill a gemmed on sight. Almost no one I can think of is instantly more hated, unable to hide the cause of that hate, more vulnerable, or more targetted in their role than the gemmed.

Playing one simply shouldn't be any more miserable and isolated than it already is, trust me. The idea, the prospect of achievement and not being a shitstain beneath everyone's boots is one of the only lights at the end of the tunnel.

I'll remind that there's been a lack of gemmed and city players in general the game's sort of been fighting against for awhile. I simply disagree that they need to be stomped on harder or kept even closer to the floor than they are.

But, I'm also mostly assuming also that the wheel of hate is just on this right now and that's fine. I'm gonna step away from discussing it really.

I just ask that a certain broader perspective and playability be kept in mind.

Thanks for keeping it civil though. I'm always glad to discuss within certain bounds.

People can disagree all day if they are cordial about it.

I understand how you feel and get why you feel that way, just with various statements from staff, I don't see your views ever coming to fruition.

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,59344.0.html
"Off the bottom of the chart.. somewhere around your keyboard."
"They would be down at the bottom right with elves and rinthis.  An Oashi gemmed would be around the Byn Runner area (just one step up)."

That's your magnum opus, you can one day, as a gemmer, be considered to the same level as a Byn Runner, congrats heh.

[Windstorm]

Yeah and I did write that I disagree with Usiku in this thread also.

Though respectfully, I'll continue to.

[Aruven]

Gemmed have ways of not being the bottom of a heel. There are particular Oashi ranks for instance, and being a member of a circle instantly makes you more valuable than everyday gemmed.

You get absolute power there's restraints in the city. These are sustained and broken by PCs at every level based on personal interactions.

[Lotion]

you see a gemmed pc outside of the gemmer quarter at night
i see a potential sap fail
we are not the same

[roughneck]

Power and fear are not the same as social standing.

I may be afraid of, and show a type of respect to, a local gangster, but that doesn't mean they have high social standing. It just means I'm afraid of the power they wield, and their willingness to go against social/moral norms.

[wizturbo]

Power and fear are not the same as social standing.

Sure.  Al Capone didn't have the same social standing as the governor of Illinois.  But I promise you no virtually no one disrespected him in public.  In a world like Zalanthas, might counts for a lot and everyone should understand that.

Whispering about a Gemmed when they enter the room, leaving suddenly, or casting fearful glances their way makes perfect sense to me.  Thinking you can spit on one or view them as a "potential sap fail" is playing with fire.  Literally in some cases.  This nuance is sometimes missing when people talk about the Gemmed on the GDB, but fortunately it's reflected properly in-game in most cases... Maybe that's because in-game the potential consequences for fucking with someone with magick are looming over characters.

[Armaddict]

I can go both ways.  Sure, you don't want to fuck with something that can utterly fuck your world.  But there's also the world of I, Robot where people treat robots like absolute shit despite them being able to fuck them up...because they know that thing isn't allowed to fuck their world.  That is the assurance of the city, that they are useful and are in proximity for the good of the people.

However, I mostly look at the end result.  My personal take is that city-mages are not allowed to -flex-.  Ever.  That makes them a loose cannon.  That makes them not subservient in their role in the city.  Give an Oashi mage a hard time?  Noble don't care.  They have more important things, and an appropriate distance to maintain.  That was always a cool role-part of the Elite; THEY would flex on people who were fucking with Oashi things.

This is why I view now as a good time to re-examine the roles of mages in different clans.  I think we can integrate mages a little more into clan play, but in a very specific social role.  They don't get to flex.  But they can develop decent local relationships with those who come to depend on them, and those people will be the ones who may not be 'chummy', but they don't appreciate you fucking with their source of water.  Their shade.  Their artillery.  etc.

[GreenTransient]

Ladies and Gentlemen in your hometown corner we've got game documentation and staff weigh ins supporting the documentation.  Looks like the powerhouse has really put in the years folks.

And in the other corner.  The challenger!  Opinion!

Rule #1 Roleplaying is a requirement on Armageddon MUD. This involves assuming the role of a character of your creation, and acting the way your character would act in the world of Zalanthas. A large amount of documentation regarding the mindset and behavior of Zalanthans is publicly available and all clans have clan-related documentation for their members to follow. Failure to roleplay and disregarding documentation can result in warnings, karma reduction, storage of your character, and temporary and permanent bans.

Acting the way your character would act inside a well documented world within the setting, not "acting the way your want to based on ooc personal reasons, experiences, and desires" is a rule, not an opinion. Of course I don't care much for the gick system let alone gemmed, not a fan of slave roleplay and forced power play. Hey at least it's not like there's two gemmed and a ton of rogue witches and they had to close gicks or something.

It's not my job as a player to convince others to follow the rules, that's staff's area of expertise.  Report'm and let staff sort'm out.

[Armaddict]

Ladies and Gentlemen in your hometown corner we've got game documentation and staff weigh ins supporting the documentation.  Looks like the powerhouse has really put in the years folks.

And in the other corner.  The challenger!  Opinion!

Rule #1 Roleplaying is a requirement on Armageddon MUD. This involves assuming the role of a character of your creation, and acting the way your character would act in the world of Zalanthas. A large amount of documentation regarding the mindset and behavior of Zalanthans is publicly available and all clans have clan-related documentation for their members to follow. Failure to roleplay and disregarding documentation can result in warnings, karma reduction, storage of your character, and temporary and permanent bans.

Acting the way your character would act inside a well documented world within the setting, not "acting the way your want to based on ooc personal reasons, experiences, and desires" is a rule, not an opinion. Of course I don't care much for the gick system let alone gemmed, not a fan of slave roleplay and forced power play. Hey at least it's not like there's two gemmed and a ton of rogue witches and they had to close gicks or something.

It's not my job as a player to convince others to follow the rules, that's staff's area of expertise.  Report'm and let staff sort'm out.

Not sure who you're directing this at, but I think you've been absent for the last 20 years, so you let me sum you up:
1) Documentation can be changed, sometimes, in order to achieve desired results, and this has happened many many times.  I'm not sure which documentation you're specifically referring to here or in what context, because
2) Documentation on mage roleplay and society is both hefty and vague from a roleplaying perspective, precisely because it can tell you how the populace mostly feels, but not how different characters express or experience those feels.  Thus we debate on how to have those feels be conducive and true-to-form without feeding the problem that
3) Documentation strictly adhered to can provide justification for very unfun gameplay at times, depending on the interpretation of it and how it is followed in game, not to mention that it can actually be contradictory at times.

Hopefully that helps you understand why mage discussions are and always will be common in the topic rotation without feeling like you can come in and shut down that conversation with some sort of authoritative post about what documentation says.  Feel free to come in and discuss that documentation directly so that we can discuss the nuances of that.

[Pariah]

I think Green is right.

It's staff's job to police RP violations against theme.

But I would say that one thing I personally struggled with for years in Armageddon and RPIs in general is that I'd look at this list of guidelines/rules and go, "Alright, how can I create a narrative to get around these..." all the time back then.

Now my opinion, just my opinion is that, that sort of rationalization of "If I make a good enough reason, or if I craft a story to support..." is the same as if you tell someone not to do something and explain why, "I don't want you to let my dog into the bathroom, he has tendency to sometimes steal bathtowels and fuck them up."  Then you go and decide you wanna take a poop and you like my dog and want him to accompany you so you move all the towels out of the bathroom.

You are still doing something I asked you not to, you're just justifying it in the fact that you're taking steps to prevent the reason I gave you I didn't want him in there.

I feel like a lot of times people read theme shit and go, "How can I get around this..."  I don't think that's really acting in good faith myself, but again, the staff are the judges but don't be surprised if you make all these exceptions to the rule and get a complaint thrown at you is all I'm saying.