Tales from the Discord - Magick Discussion

[Patuk]

No, it's just time to stop pretending 'magick is supposed to be that strong and this is intended!' is good design in 2023.

In 2013, sure, with active city militaries and mage classes having glaring drawbacks, that's totally valid. It's just no longer the game we're playing.

I think this worked WHEN there were fullguild mages only.

They were MEANT to be glass cannons (for the most part) and powerful if left to their own devices. I once rolled a VERY decent strength Warrior back in the day and nearly killed an established Sorceror with magick weapons. I was less than 1d played and they were pretty damn low. If the flee code granted attacks of opportunity back then they might have died.

These days, the same sorceror has my offense/defense gain and similar weapon skills (yes they've been adjusted, but you see the point).

Yes, subclass magick was a mistake.

[Pariah]

No, it's just time to stop pretending 'magick is supposed to be that strong and this is intended!' is good design in 2023.

In 2013, sure, with active city militaries and mage classes having glaring drawbacks, that's totally valid. It's just no longer the game we're playing.

I think this worked WHEN there were fullguild mages only.

They were MEANT to be glass cannons (for the most part) and powerful if left to their own devices. I once rolled a VERY decent strength Warrior back in the day and nearly killed an established Sorceror with magick weapons. I was less than 1d played and they were pretty damn low. If the flee code granted attacks of opportunity back then they might have died.

These days, the same sorceror has my offense/defense gain and similar weapon skills (yes they've been adjusted, but you see the point).

Yes, subclass magick was a mistake.

There is a conversation of potentially making them spec apps and full the new norm.  Maybe they will do that?

[DesertT]

It would help people NOT get overlooked if they actually played a hireable character and lived a couple of OOC weeks.
Your breed, rinther, northron in Allanak, or mutant half-giant with horns are all going to have limited options.

People who can't stay alive longer than two weeks, same deal.

[mansa]

it would be really funny if they fixed it by giving mage subguilds a significant malus to KPC

What does the acronym KPC stand for?  I've never heard that before.

[Riev]

It would help people NOT get overlooked if they actually played a hireable character and lived a couple of OOC weeks.
Your breed, rinther, northron in Allanak, or mutant half-giant with horns are all going to have limited options.

People who can't stay alive longer than two weeks, same deal.

Heck sometimes its not WORTH being alive for 2 weeks because you chose an area that doesn't have enough interaction.

2 PCs seen in a 6 hour play session in a "civilization center" kinda sucks. Out loud. With a bullhorn

[Patuk]

Just for clarity's sake, this is a post from the thread that spawned after magick became subclass-only:

Speaking of caps...

I vaguely recall staff saying they monitor the number of magickers in the game. Will this still stand? I'm not overly intrigued by the prospect of running into dozens of magickally gifted PCs trying out the new digs.

This will remain the case. We will put breaks on magickers if it gets stupid. Such breaks will be temporary and we will try to focus on people playing multiple magickers in a row to give as many people as possible chances to try new stuff.

Hi. What are you going to do, and when are you going to be doing it?

[Pariah]

it would be really funny if they fixed it by giving mage subguilds a significant malus to KPC

What does the acronym KPC stand for?  I've never heard that before.

[Riev]

it would be really funny if they fixed it by giving mage subguilds a significant malus to KPC

What does the acronym KPC stand for?  I've never heard that before.

Key Performance Criteria

Give magickers shitty performance.

[Patuk]

Just fyi:

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,59259.0.html

Nerfing mages' mundane classes is the most workaround shit in existence, though. Easier and better to admit they shouldn't be strong at mundane stuff at all and revert to fully-classed magick.

[Pariah]

it would be really funny if they fixed it by giving mage subguilds a significant malus to KPC

What does the acronym KPC stand for?  I've never heard that before.

Key Performance Criteria

Give magickers shitty performance.

They had that, in full magicker guild/class.  Could blow your head off with a fireball but couldn't fight toe to toe to save their life.

I think we should go back to full magicker with all their drawbacks

[Pariah]

it would be really funny if they fixed it by giving mage subguilds a significant malus to KPC

What does the acronym KPC stand for?  I've never heard that before.

Key Performance Criteria

Give magickers shitty performance.

They had that, in full magicker guild/class.  Could blow your head off with a fireball but couldn't fight toe to toe to save their life.

I think we should go back to full magicker with all their drawbacks

Just fyi:

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,59259.0.html

Nerfing mages' mundane classes is the most workaround shit in existence, though. Easier and better to admit they shouldn't be strong at mundane stuff at all and revert to fully-classed magick.

Look at this, we agree, who would have thought!

[mansa]

it would be really funny if they fixed it by giving mage subguilds a significant malus to KPC

What does the acronym KPC stand for?  I've never heard that before.

Key Performance Criteria

Give magickers shitty performance.

Are you sure it doesn't mean "Karma PC"?
Or "Killing Player Characters" ?

[DesertT]

It would help people NOT get overlooked if they actually played a hireable character and lived a couple of OOC weeks.
Your breed, rinther, northron in Allanak, or mutant half-giant with horns are all going to have limited options.

People who can't stay alive longer than two weeks, same deal.

Heck sometimes its not WORTH being alive for 2 weeks because you chose an area that doesn't have enough interaction.

2 PCs seen in a 6 hour play session in a "civilization center" kinda sucks. Out loud. With a bullhorn

Sounds like you need to go play a rogue gick in the wild.

Be part of "the problem".

If you can't beat 'em....

[Synthesis]

I think the subclass magick is fine.

It never made any sense that a magicker character was basically useless at every other life skill.

The problem is that there's too many magickers out there relative to the mundane PC population.

The solution is limiting the number, plain and simple.

Magick is supposed to be scary as fuck. Magickers are supposed to be badass, but rare-ish.

The only clans that should be able to field multiple PC magickers are AoD, Sun Runners, and ATV...and I dunno, maybe that whatever-the-fuck mutant clan y'all invented in the meantime.

[mansa]

My preference has always been:


A coded limit of characters classes to fulfil a particular population guideline.

...And this can be designed many different ways, but my particular flavour-of-the-month is a hard limit of race/class/subclass options provided by the character generation code, doing a query into the last 15 days of active players, and to prevent the choice from being chosen during character generation until the limit has been reduced.

To expand on this:

There's two checks or filters for the NEW CHARACTER APPLICATION flow:
a) Separate the classes/subclasses/races into groups.   These groups have a total "active" population group limit based on the percentage of characters that fit into it.
e.g.  Mul and Half-Giant races combined cannot exceed 15% of the total active population.

b) Within these groups, have limits also of the particular subgroup type.
e.g.  There cannot be more than 10 active half-giants in the game.

c) "Active" is defined as logged in once within the past 15 days.   If a character hasn't logged in within the last 15 days, they aren't considered "active" characters in the calculation.
e.g. There are 10 half-giants in the game, and 1 of these half-giant characters hasn't logged into the game in a while.  When it hits day 16, the game considers them "inactive" and their spot becomes open for a new character to take.

Downside: You have the potential to go over the limit when inactive characters become active characters again.   This actually doesn't matter, since the game will allow these characters to continue to exist - it just prevents NEW characters from entering into the game until the population goes below the threshold limit.

d) Sorcerer remain special application only, but psionicists don't require special applications anymore.


Here's a basic grouping I'm throwing out there for an example.  Numbers, Percentages, groupings are all subject to feedback:

Group 1
Psionicists - 3 max
Nilazi - 5 max
Elkrian - 5 max
Drovian - 5 max
- this group ALSO cannot be larger than 10% of the total population of active players.

Group 2
Whiran - 8 max
Krathi - 8 max
Vivaduan - 10 max
Rukkian - 10 max
- this group ALSO cannot be larger than 25% of the total population of active players.

Group 3
Mul - 5 max
Half-Giant - 10 max
- this group ALSO cannot be larger than 15% of the total population of active players.

[Armaddict]

It never made any sense that a magicker character was basically useless at every other life skill.

I don't particularly agree with this, because that wasn't their state ever since extended subs went in.  Extended subs are actually quite good, you just have to be very sure to play around that sub rather than having the full range of options of a full class.

However, I'm mostly in agreement with the rest of it.  Rarity is best.  Tweaks to not necessarily power levels, but other parts of the magick component could be examined to make tradeoffs and involvement.

For example, and only as an example despite me using it as a basis for discussion several times:
-Full-guild restriction based on being gemmed/sponsored:  I know everyone hates that idea right off the bat.  But it makes sense that the city provides enough to explain the lower emphasis on survival skills and specialization became available via temples.
-Mage-subguild restrictions are much looser, but their spellset, while powerful, makes them specifically vulnerable towards other mages.  Only make transition from subguild mage to full mage possible with gem/clan sponsorship over time.
-Try to create a balance where most rogue mages end up being subguild-type, specifically using their magick to try to build things either in the wilds, or in secret.  Full-guild mages have the impetus to find them via their sponsorship/gemmed status.

It doesn't have to be exactly that.  Like I said, an example.  Try to create as much built-in conflict via role itself as possible.  Create expectations (i.e. things to do) of the roles themselves.

That's assuming we don't want to get rid of subguild mages altogether.  Previously, the power/vulnerability dynamic of full-guild mages made solo-survival and total concealment of it much more difficult, and fostered interactions as a result.  I'd look for some way to implement built in necessity to what the role needs to fulfill glaring weaknesses, or making them fulfill a role that creates as much interaction as possible as naturally as possible.

ETA:  Would be a great time to implement some change to conform a little closer to documentation, as well.  Merchant houses probably make limited use of Vivaduans.  Not for hunting party #168, but for their large operations and travel and estate upkeep.  Military noble houses probably have a selected few war mages.  Things of that nature.  Create the possibility of limited comfort among their mundane peers, but only in that clan-involved setting.  It gives them a way to mingle while still allowing the overarching distrust.