Discussion of GMH's from Discord.

[Pariah]

So I know that lots of people either don't want to be active on discord or might be banned, so I figured that I'd share some of what was discuss on discord today.

As you know if you've actively playing the game, GMHs are in a bit of a slump right now, the reason cited everything from overbearing Templars to just being a straight boring unfun role and everything in between.

One thing that was brought up was that the limit per house of hunters/staff is a bit limiting.  So the idea was floated that instead of 2 hunters per house (6 total) why not have hunters be employed by all the GMHs and supply a central area, like a shared access warehouse for example (This part wasn't 100% cemented out yet.)

That way the hunters work for the GMHs as a group and there that opens up more RP possibilities with Salarr Kadius and Kurac to interact, bribe,sway, beg steal etc to get the hunters to do their bidding. (My take on it anyways).

And then we discussed various was to institute item dumps in the game, places where hunters/players could turn things in to get rid of them, versus carrying around the same two carcasses of scrabs for three RL days while they try to sell it either to stores or players.

Some ideas floated were:
1. Have a shop that buys everything but gives diminishing returns depending on how many of the thing they have, say a scrab shell is worth 30 sid, but after so many 25, after more 20 etc etc till it's down to one single sid for massive amounts in stock.  A way to get around the 5 only thing was to simply have the item disappear and not be available for sale in the vendor.  That way you never hit that hard coded limit that some warehouse NPCs hit due to having too many recipes.

2. Code a pc like the rock buyer in Allanak, just buys blocky stones ad nauseam and never turns away people.

3. And my original idea was to have something like a combination of both, but have it affect things outside the city.  Sell a scrab shell to the vendor it deletes the item but keeps track, the Trade Templar or merchant in charge (luirs) can then get a tally of all the food, hide, shell, bones, rocks (whatever categories) and that can influence things in town like, if not enough meat, people go hungry.  If not enough rocks, the buildings can't be maintained and look shoddy and possibly collapse, if not enough shell, armor production struggles, you get the idea.

Just figured it was worth a share here since some folks will never step food in the discord for one reason or another.

[askaran]

I really like the idea of NPCs that buy materials, like the rock buyers or the vendors in Tuluk who accept all sorts of different materials. That said, I also like the idea of having a collaboration between GMH and hunters, sort of like a clan, since the staff tried to do that already with the whole garrison thing, but really... and this is probably just me... each GMH should have their own hunter division like they used to. I remember when I was playing the first hunter in Kadius, the rivalry between houses was fun to play around with, even if it was never too serious. When working together, it made it a more fun/interesting experience, like when Kadius and Salaar teamed up to collect a certain piece of metal that fell down from the sky.

Being a merchant in the houses is cool, but when you're relying on unaffiliated hunters to fill your warehouse, it can get kinda iffy, especially when those hunters can just make better money elsewhere. And yeah, I just said that you can make better money elsewhere, but to me at least, playing as a hunter in one of the houses was always cool enough to offset that because you have a built-in crew, a base of operations, and you can always sell on the side anyway. Realistically, especially with corruption in the name, selling on the side as a hunter in either of the city-states shouldn't be too hard to manage. There are thousands of citizens in each city, and it's not like those motherfuckers are keeping receipts.

[askaran]

Tacking onto this as an afterthought, and drawing inspiration from an institution that is already in game. The Templar that buys obsidian/glass. You can only sell a certain number of each to them per day but it's a regular paycheck for people putting in the work. I don't know the coding implications of something like this for scrab/chalton/gortok/carru parts. But it's a system that seems to work well, at least in my experience.

[Lotion]

Why would the GMH suddenly all decide to to a bit of communism together? They are ruthlessly capitalist organizations.

[askaran]

Per the docs, or atleast from what I remember a long time back. They all make money off of eachother because they agree to stick to their own monopolies.

[SpyGuy]

One problem with sharing hunters is they all have different bosses.  So they're hired by different people likely in different time zones and with different goals.  In my experience hunter is rarely their only role and it generally makes more sense for the hunter PCs to travel and stay with their GMH leader.  I would much prefer the current role where you work closely under a GMH leader than a clan that's just focused on hunting.

That said the GMH share tons of space in Luir's and Tuluk.  There's absolutely nothing stopping PCs from better organizing hunters to train and hunt together.  If that hasn't been happening since their reopening then either no one has tried hard enough or the IC politics haven't allowed it.

[Kestria]

I think the idea of 'sharing hunters' could work in a 'one off basis', meaning, hey we really need some kryl shell, hey we do too, and saying our 2 hunters can work with your 2 hunters, and, split the kryl shell they come back with.
Having a hunter clan for GMH's is not wise, purely because you can already hear the arguments about why clan A hasn't got any sapphires but Clan B went into the 'communal material drop off' and took them all except 1.

[FamousAmos]

I think they tried that in the past and it didn't work out.

The Garrison still works with this concept but they're not an open clan.

[Riev]

Single hunters can be problematic when you need kryl shell and bahamet leather and long mek bones.

I think the idea is that you hire other indies to help, or the Byn to "escort" you while you do this (Byn cannot hunt themselves, but they can accompany a seasoned hunter).

I do like the idea of hunters doing a communal pile, but as said before.... different bosses, different needs. What happens when the Merchant Hunters are bringing in a bunch of gemstones and Kurac is in desperate need of sandsilk and spider fangs?

When I play a crafter, I try real hard to buy from PCs first. I try to pay out more than they would get selling it to a shop to incentivize selling to me and as a crafter I should, at some point, be able to afford that. The difficulty is when you do not share playtimes.


Maybe on Allanak's GMH path, and Tuluks new communist compound, there could be a public NPC that buys materials from people are 'reduced rates' and that inventory becomes available in a shared pool inside. For example: You sell a scrab shell to them for slightly less than the market normally buys. It becomes part of that NPCs inventory, but only GMH-flagged people can purchase from them. OR their inventory is dumped every RL hour into a non-save room that has to be sorted through or you lose it.

[Krath]

Or....hear me out with this unpopular opinion..we could allow the Byn, the Mercenary clan, to hunt and skin and solve this issue.

[Tailong]

Or a branch of the Byn designated to hiring out as hunters....

[SpyGuy]

I have hired Byn mercenaries to help on hunts I didn't want to do alone. And hired the Byn to do bigger jobs as escort to my hunter.  It can be a really fun RPT

[Pariah]

I think converting the Byn to hunters or adding hunters to their lineup would be awesome, but require a whole rewrite of their rules.

[Riev]

The thing is, the Byn can absolutely HELP you hunt, they just can't be hired to be the hunters themselves.
Consider them mercenary soldiers, some adept at killing and skinning their prey in the forest. They should still be out there guarding, or clearing the way for you to come through. Not doing the whole job.

The problem is then the Hunter and the Byn Unit have to be around at the same time, when you really just need 2 Troopers and a RedShirt Runner to go after those spiders.

[SpyGuy]

The thing is, the Byn can absolutely HELP you hunt, they just can't be hired to be the hunters themselves.
Consider them mercenary soldiers, some adept at killing and skinning their prey in the forest. They should still be out there guarding, or clearing the way for you to come through. Not doing the whole job.

The problem is then the Hunter and the Byn Unit have to be around at the same time, when you really just need 2 Troopers and a RedShirt Runner to go after those spiders.

Is it just unpopular to go Mercenary? Or difficult to do IC?  I've only known a few.

But yes, most Byn rules about jobs they can take can be gotten around by saying 'I'm hiring you to protect me while I do this thing'

[Pariah]

Yeah it always seemed like you'd be riding the line to hire the Byn to protect you WHILE you hunt.

Cause even though you're the one going out after that salt worm for instance, they are also fighting it with you.

So it seems like a way around the rule, but if that type of fence tightrope walking is allowed, then game on.

[Tailong]

The main issue with that is that a lone hunter cannot afford to pay the prices asked by some Sergeants ICly, but that's a whole different subject. GMH could afford said prices, just need to have a good profit margin and most hunts don't.

[DesertT]

As you know if you've actively playing the game, GMHs are in a bit of a slump right now, the reason cited everything from overbearing Templars to just being a straight boring unfun role and everything in between.

One thing that was brought up was that the limit per house of hunters/staff is a bit limiting.  So the idea was floated that instead of 2 hunters per house (6 total) why not have hunters be employed by all the GMHs and supply a central area, like a shared access warehouse for example (This part wasn't 100% cemented out yet.)

Some ideas floated were:
1. Have a shop that buys everything but gives diminishing returns depending on how many of the thing they have, say a scrab shell is worth 30 sid, but after so many 25, after more 20 etc etc till it's down to one single sid for massive amounts in stock.  A way to get around the 5 only thing was to simply have the item disappear and not be available for sale in the vendor.  That way you never hit that hard coded limit that some warehouse NPCs hit due to having too many recipes.

2. Code a pc like the rock buyer in Allanak, just buys blocky stones ad nauseam and never turns away people.

3. And my original idea was to have something like a combination of both, but have it affect things outside the city.  Sell a scrab shell to the vendor it deletes the item but keeps track, the Trade Templar or merchant in charge (luirs) can then get a tally of all the food, hide, shell, bones, rocks (whatever categories) and that can influence things in town like, if not enough meat, people go hungry.  If not enough rocks, the buildings can't be maintained and look shoddy and possibly collapse, if not enough shell, armor production struggles, you get the idea.

Just figured it was worth a share here since some folks will never step food in the discord for one reason or another.

You're right.  I won't step into the Discord again.

Let's set-up a hypothetical here.  Let's say there are two main world powers.  A third tries to step in and make itself known.  A widely-traveled clan or two begins to support the third power.  That third power gets shot down eventually, or at least an arm of it.  Would it not be reasonable for there to be repercussions against the widely-traveled clan/s by the remaining two world powers for their previous efforts in supporting the third?  Or do they just get a free pass?

Just because someone stores doesn't mean that the clan they represent is wholly forgiven of the stored character's wrong-doings and a fresh slate is offered.  That's Laughable!!  Especially for clans that are extremely wealthy.

As has been mentioned above, the Byn is a viable source for hiring to escort a hunter.  Expanding the hiring capability of the GMHs doesn't help how spread out the (limited) players are.  We've already opened so many clans that hiring minions isn't possible for them all.  How can we justify allowing certain clans to hire more when there's not enough to go around and there is already workable solutions in place?

I'm all for upping the limit that a vendor will purchase raw goods, but shouldn't that vendor be the Savvy Spiders?  Maybe the GMHs could have raw goods vendors as well.  I'm down with that.  I'm also all for the idea of diminishing returns.

I recall a certain desert elf last year who made a point to buy damn near everything off of independent hunters.  I also recall GMH family members being overly stingy with their coin and not buying raw materials off of independent hunters.  Kinda like that guy outside Nenyuk in Allanak who offers to pay 75 sid for the shell of a silt horror.

[Riev]

The main issue with that is that a lone hunter cannot afford to pay the prices asked by some Sergeants ICly, but that's a whole different subject. GMH could afford said prices, just need to have a good profit margin and most hunts don't.

Honestly, this here is the issue. Is a GMH Merchant going to pay the extravagant cost of, lets say, 800 coins for a unit of Byn to come up and hunt, for a return of MAYBE a couple worm hides? It messes with the cost. Nevermind if you need simple Mek Bone, that bone's cost goes from like 100 coins to 400 coins per bone unless your RPT is to eradicate the Salt Flats.

So is this something that can kind of be 'written off' in the background to increase activity in the game? Or would a merchant now need to sell their Cool Worm Hide Quivers for half a large a piece because the Byn has to get paid too?

[Pariah]

The main issue with that is that a lone hunter cannot afford to pay the prices asked by some Sergeants ICly, but that's a whole different subject. GMH could afford said prices, just need to have a good profit margin and most hunts don't.

Honestly, this here is the issue. Is a GMH Merchant going to pay the extravagant cost of, lets say, 800 coins for a unit of Byn to come up and hunt, for a return of MAYBE a couple worm hides? It messes with the cost. Nevermind if you need simple Mek Bone, that bone's cost goes from like 100 coins to 400 coins per bone unless your RPT is to eradicate the Salt Flats.

So is this something that can kind of be 'written off' in the background to increase activity in the game? Or would a merchant now need to sell their Cool Worm Hide Quivers for half a large a piece because the Byn has to get paid too?

800 coins for 40-50 minutes of time is crazy too.

[DesertT]

800 coins for 40-50 minutes of time is crazy too.

So the real issue here is only getting one silt horror shell from a silt horror and only being able to use said shell for essentially one piece of armor.

[Riev]

800 coins for 40-50 minutes of time is crazy too.

So the real issue here is only getting one silt horror shell from a silt horror and only being able to use said shell for essentially one piece of armor.

It is one of the issues, yes, but one I think is at the heart of the concern. Additionally it is that for "high end" creatures, staff often have them set to load-only or so rare that it would take a full RPT to track one down.

In order to load the amount of critters necessary to make a 'full byn-assisted outing' worthwhile coin-wise, you'd kill probably every PC in the area. To me, it comes down to "Do we Rule of Cool  this or do we force Merchants to make a profit on these hunt RPTs".

[Gunnerblaster]

Regarding the Byn as hirable hunters, so long as the people paying have some of their own element involved, the Byn shouldn't be going out to hunt by themselves.

If a GMH wants some Kryl or other type of material, the Byn can and should be hired to accompany some of that GMH's hunters to assist but I don't think the Byn should be sent out by themselves to do it. If that GMH doesn't have any active hunters to send with the Byn - Tough fucking luck.

[Pariah]

800 coins for 40-50 minutes of time is crazy too.

So the real issue here is only getting one silt horror shell from a silt horror and only being able to use said shell for essentially one piece of armor.

I've never been a crafter of any level of success so I have NO idea what horror shell goes for.

I mean more that it's not sustainable.  Unless I play salt baron sid/glass miner every hour for weeks to build up a fortune, I don't have 800 coins to throw around for a dawn-dusk hunt.

[Aruven]

GMH houses are stuck because they are basically type casted into calling stations for their prescribed goods. This is boring.

I've thrown out multiple times the static hierarchy of both merchant houses and noble clans needs to be allowed to either take over or destroy themselves. I think it's less about the economy itself and more about the playability.

The same three families and the same bankers are given a glass ceiling that is untouchable and the staff have avoided any serious arcs that threaten any of them.

Luirs could have been a sick ass battle royale with the highest bidders of mercenaries and tribes gaining fragile dominance and constantly changing hands but it became a table of make nicers that bid high for a position with no benefits that still rolled over for a big army sliding up to its gates.

[SpyGuy]

Luirs could have been a sick ass battle royale with the highest bidders of mercenaries and tribes gaining fragile dominance and constantly changing hands but it became a table of make nicers that bid high for a position with no benefits that still rolled over for a big army sliding up to its gates.

I wouldn't put that on the players. The initial occupation of Luir's and the later burning of the apartments felt very scripted to me.  GMH employees were not given replies by staff about options and House stances before the invasion, or at least I wasn't.  The Garrison/Council was also kind of a mess with the role-app Captain being unable to play, the logical person to take over dying and Kurac having two brand new Dealers.  The Dealers really weren't given any choice but surrender or we destroy the gates.

[Aruven]

Yeah I got to play through GMH characters in that timeline. I'm not putting the onus on anyone in particular, just reviewing.

My experience was entirely:

"Hey I'm taking over the underground spice trade in 'x' area, kuraci reps are losers atm and fumbling so im slicing hard"

Staff:

"No only kurac trades spice"

Me:

"Not if they suck time for a new spice trade run it"

Staff:

"Salarr and kurac good friends boss guys won't ever allow this cease immediate"

Me:

"Okay I'm taking over this 'thing' and want to do this"

Staff:

"Okay yeah that need to involve kadius/nenyuk/salarr/kurac also so... oh and nenyuk doesn't like your tone"

Me:

"Ok I'm storing this character"

This was amplified incredibly during the luirs / council situation. And look, what's done is done. Yet I recap because as far as I know these roles operate exactly the same. I have 0 inclination to play one, no economy tweak is going to make this appealing, and neither are apartments in luirs outpost.

Let these clans and their leaders live on the knife's edge and have consequences. Like beyond their own death. Nobody is afraid to lose their own character. Fuck up bad your house can really be in danger. Give the leaders a sense of ownership and investment.

If kadius or salarr or kurac get wiped out it can only lead to more plots and filling the void. When they are untouchable, it leads to nothing.

[Brokkr]

If kadius or salarr or kurac get wiped out

This is an amount of work you are not going to be volunteering Staff to do because you want a plot to go a certain way, especially in light of some players willingness to burn it all down.

[Riev]

If kadius or salarr or kurac get wiped out

This is an amount of work you are not going to be volunteering Staff to do because you want a plot to go a certain way, especially in light of some players willingness to burn it all down.

Attitude.

GMHs are setup specifically to "not fail". They're GREAT Merchant Houses for a reason.

But there does need to be some sort of ownership. Like how Byn Sergeants get their own units, and you can technically be like "The Horrors are the best unit!" until they all die. But they were still "yours".
The Salarri ED was fun for a lot of reasons, but it also was a "We either do well or we fail and if we fail, there are consequences".

Right now, as Aruven said, there don't FEEL like consequences. You do something poorly, and it doesn't matter. Store. It won't affect plots at all because there SEEMINGLY are none that care about the PC in place.

[Aruven]

If kadius or salarr or kurac get wiped out

This is an amount of work you are not going to be volunteering Staff to do because you want a plot to go a certain way, especially in light of some players willingness to burn it all down.

Agreed, and believe it or not I also volunteered a lot of time at one point to contribute to GMH clans along with staff. We're talking 15+ RL years of this generally same situation. It's boring man, i'm sorry. That's not trying to discredit staff or players implementing coded systems and cool ideas in there, it's just played out for anyone that's played a few GMH members before.

8 Karma times were, you almost HAD to play a GMH role before you could ever take an actual noble/templar role, and this in many ways supported the GMH being played for 10-15 years and not having player issues. That's been gone for awhile. If you're a player playing GMH, god love ya for the work you do and I try IC to support those roles.

Players do a lot of work that shapes and makes the GMH what they are with staff, and ultimately I think they should be playable factions/clans available in game in some form, but there is a problem with how they exist as far as playability goes in my opinion and I look forward to seeing what ya'll hammer out here and bring over from the disco.

[Yelinak]

As you know if you've actively playing the game, GMHs are in a bit of a slump right now, the reason cited everything from overbearing Templars to just being a straight boring unfun role and everything in between.

I think it's a "boring unfun role" in large part because ordering something from GMHs is such an awful, discouraging experience that most people never do, and since that's the main function of GMHs, most characters never interact with them in any way. When it's already lodged in the back of your mind that there's no point buying anything from the Great Merchant Houses (lol), it's easy to ignore them altogether because the primary reason to approach them is moot. Even if sales in and of themselves don't necessarily represent an exciting venue of roleplay, the interaction builds the ties that lead to more interesting roleplay; but not if so many characters don't even take that first step.

So why does it routinely take upwards of a real-life month to buy something you already know exists? I get if you're asking for a codpiece with your own face embroidered on it, but when I go to Kurac and order a set of fucking desert camo gear that they've been selling for the last twenty RL years, what is it that makes it take numerous weeks before the transaction is ready? What phenomenon is causing this delay? Maybe players would be less inclined to ignore the existence of GMHs if this were not the case.

[askaran]

Having played, perhaps too many Bynners.. If they get paid to do something they should do it, any arbitrary rules to the contrary are just that.

[DesertT]

So why does it routinely take upwards of a real-life month to buy something you already know exists? I get if you're asking for a codpiece with your own face embroidered on it, but when I go to Kurac and order a set of fucking desert camo gear that they've been selling for the last twenty RL years, what is it that makes it take numerous weeks before the transaction is ready? What phenomenon is causing this delay? Maybe players would be less inclined to ignore the existence of GMHs if this were not the case.

!!THIS!!

Maybe too, give GMH players a bonus (or a few bonus) custom craft slots each month.  Maybe that's already a thing, but it doesn't seem like it with my most recent experiences.

[Patuk]

GMH characters do not, in fact, get extra CC slots no. They used to, but haven't for years.

[DesertT]

GMH characters do not, in fact, get extra CC slots no. They used to, but haven't for years.

This begs the question:  Why?

[DesertT]

What would happen if when a person played a GMH member, their plans, plots, and ideas were actually supported as the main effort for their StoryTeller?

What if they worked together as a team to figure out what was reasonable and what wasn't?

I know that it's frustrating for people when they get a "leadership role" only to find out that they have no real leadership and no real say.  They're basically administrators.

When this happens, it's made abundantly clear that that player is NOT one of the "cool kids".

Quite disheartening.

Edited to Add:

Here's what I mean.  A "leader" asks to run with a certain plot idea.  They get told, "Great, figure it out IC'ly with PCs."

Yet when it comes to the plot idea their StoryTeller wants them to run with, they get all kinds of NPC and vNPC support along with animations and the whole works.

THAT.... is frustrating.... AND Discouraging.

[SpyGuy]

I actually really enjoyed the GMH role I created for myself.  But it was 100% me making do with what resources I had without staff involvement.  Hiring the Byn to help move some secret stuff out of the war zone, organizing hunts, delivering secret messages, etc.

It was doable with a combat PC that could organize others and had money.  Had to lead from the front though and those sorts of things are just reliant on code.  The House rarely felt like more than just our crew and whenever we pushed the boundaries we were reminded we actually weren't all that important to be making big decisions. 

[Riev]

Well. I think the reason stuff takes 'so long' to get loaded into the game is because staff want hunters and crafters to have something to do.

Loading up the stuff you're asking for turns the Merchants into vending machines and reduces the other roles in the clan.

There ARE some things they should always have on hand, but for all the "amazing" quality weapons and top tier kuraci camo you want? I think they want to give Artisans a reason to exist

[HazelHomewrecker]

Edited to Add:

Here's what I mean.  A "leader" asks to run with a certain plot idea.  They get told, "Great, figure it out IC'ly with PCs."

Yet when it comes to the plot idea their StoryTeller wants them to run with, they get all kinds of NPC and vNPC support along with animations and the whole works.

THAT.... is frustrating.... AND Discouraging.

This. This this this. A hundred, thousand times, this. Any leadership position I've gotten, I've been the mover and shaker, but any plot I wanted to run myself which I coordinated with my staff at the time, I got extremely minimal support.

However, when a [redacted] recent plot came around, I was interacting with NPC's, getting animations, support, etc. Why does it have to be something STAFF wants you to do, for you to feel like you're allowed to do anything at all. This is another perpetuated issue that makes ALL leadership unfun in some way.

[SpyGuy]

This got a little off topic but I needed a rant:

Thirded. Those big plots also typically revolve around a few PCs.  I understand staff can't animate for everyone and don't expect them to but having my questions ignored in requests for a world plot my PC and clan were involved in was very annoying.  And having little to no agency to do any sort of plot or action that wasn't 100% doable with no staff involvement was frustrating.  All this while knowing if you fuck up anywhere and you have the wrong kind of staffer then you're going to get slapped down hard.

I lost all interest in the Yayara storyline and by extension the game when I had to play through the railroad that was the Luir's Occupation.   Staff plots are almost uniformly presented to (mundane) players as 'You can look if you're special enough but you can't touch this.  If you push really hard and try to interact with it we may let you in a bit to kill your PC because realism, staff plots get to be OP!'

So losing interest in whatever world plot is going on while consistently having your questions about said world plot not responded to...what's the point of engaging in that then?  What do players get out of it?  Where in the past 2 years has that plot even moved?  Act 1 (the stuff in Luir's) sounded fun.  Act 2 (the green eyed monsters) was actually pretty cool, it at least involved a wide range of PCs.  Act 3 was a railroad from my perspective and seemingly ended the plot on a note of 'Haha, you can't touch us. See how powerful our plot is! Fear!'  Yeah okay buddy, another untouchable uber sorcerer in their magic castle isn't the game I want to play.