Facilitating finding RP with a small playerbase

[whengravityfails]

What if it used the new Tavern flag, and showed you how many people were in each tavern?



>where
Immortals:
---------

There are 0 visible Immortals currently in the world.

There are 38 players currently in the world, other than yourself.
---------
Zones:

There are 4 players in the Gladiator and the Gaj
There are 6 players in The Storm's End

I like this particular idea quite a bit - more so than what I thought I would prefer (any public room with an opt-in command) because people come to the taverns (usually) to seek out RP with a variety of other people as opposed to while buying furniture.

[MarshallDFX]

+1 mansa.

[tiny rainbow]

The problem is though if you can just check without going there, because they just did a command and it said no one there:

- no one will go there if characters are opted out of showing, who sometimes have very legitimate fun RP reasons and are not just there to steal all your travel cakes

- if it says there are people on the list and you can't see them, some people start acting differently due to the OOC knowledge

Can't win, it's better to just tell people if there's people visiting when people travel to the room, so people will know to hang around and meet others and avoid the "person checks tavern/who list, sees no one, walks on, second person walks/logs on and does the same"

would not help people not playing Templar-aligned characters at all:
If people see that there are no people in the tavern and so don't go there, everyone is missing out on RP opportunities constantly, it'll be much worse for a lot of players, while only helping one side. Game changes need to help everyone.

A lot of the time those "antagonist" characters are just more neutral, and it's the city type characters that are antagonistic to them (e.g. death if caught) - aren't even out to kill or steal or hurt, just for fun politics RP (that helps increase RP in both cities even!). Seriously. Think about someone like Little jozhal, I can count one one hand characters stolen from or killed! And facilitated a lot of RP and plots between both cities. Before the way change, if there was something, even an emote, that made someone suspicious, I sometimes used to get people, including sponsored role merchant characters, sometimes using contact to see if it says "Someone" (before the change, it would show that if someone was hiding). Code supporting people equally when possible instead of only relying on staff to punish, is usually better that way, and avoids a lot of drama too.

I don't mind the idea, but I think you should have to travel to the room first to see if people have been around recently.

Like this:

sort of thing like Hunt but only for taverns, "mix"/"mingle":

You take a while to look around, assessing the crowd:(this takes a while, so people don't just walk in, check, then leave)
There's always people around, but it seems pretty busy right now. Though people say it was busier a few hours ago. (OOC: 4 player characters are or were here within the last 10 minutes, 6 during last 30 minutes, 9 this past Zalanthan day)
(while avoiding people on opt-out/in stealth)

[CirclelessBard]

At the moment, it's impossible to determine which RP centers are populated without taking the time to walk to them. Depending on things like weather conditions and where you're starting from, it can take 10-20 minutes to do a full check of a city's taverns.

The solution being discussed in this thread would help facilitate pushing players towards populated locations asap. To solve the problem of players not going to taverns because they see no one there, I don't think that can be programmed. That requires a cultural shift on the part of the playerbase for players to be willing to be the first one in a tavern.

You can easily program the "who" command to not count players that are invisible or trying to hide. You can also remove the count of a room in "who" if you are already in that room. That would leave no room for players using OOC knowledge to be suspicious about a room's occupants or lack thereof.

[LetaSpringle]

The solution being discussed in this thread would help facilitate pushing players towards populated locations asap. To solve the problem of players not going to taverns because they see no one there, I don't think that can be programmed. That requires a cultural shift on the part of the playerbase for players to be willing to be the first one in a tavern.

You feel this needs a cultural shift to get players to be the first in a tavern. I agree! That's why I think it's a bad idea to encourage people to go to places already populated by telling them where everyone is. That discourages people from going anywhere else.

[CirclelessBard]

The solution being discussed in this thread would help facilitate pushing players towards populated locations asap. To solve the problem of players not going to taverns because they see no one there, I don't think that can be programmed. That requires a cultural shift on the part of the playerbase for players to be willing to be the first one in a tavern.

You feel this needs a cultural shift to get players to be the first in a tavern. I agree! That's why I think it's a bad idea to encourage people to go to places already populated by telling them where everyone is. That discourages people from going anywhere else.

I don't see how it is ever a bad idea in a roleplaying game to tell players where other players looking for roleplay are hanging out. The player can use that information to go to a populated tavern, or use that information to go to an empty one.

[LetaSpringle]

The solution being discussed in this thread would help facilitate pushing players towards populated locations asap. To solve the problem of players not going to taverns because they see no one there, I don't think that can be programmed. That requires a cultural shift on the part of the playerbase for players to be willing to be the first one in a tavern.

You feel this needs a cultural shift to get players to be the first in a tavern. I agree! That's why I think it's a bad idea to encourage people to go to places already populated by telling them where everyone is. That discourages people from going anywhere else.

I don't see how it is ever a bad idea in a roleplaying game to tell players where other players looking for roleplay are hanging out. The player can use that information to go to a populated tavern, or use that information to go to an empty one.

option c) They can use that information to be discouraged and log out if the populated tavern is in a different city.

without the change they would go or not go as their character would do and run into other people or not. If they spend 5 minutes to get there maybe they'll stick around another 5 minutes and someone else will come along.  With the change you encourage them to just not do that.

[CirclelessBard]

The staff member coding this feature could easily only show tavern counts for the city your character is currently in. I hope we don't discount the entire idea when a relatively minor tweak to the idea can preserve it.

[Obeliskocism]

I was expecting a slightly different discussion in this thread.  I would like to ask

What suggestions do people have for facilitating finding RP with a small playerbase that can be done right now?
Do you have any advice that does not involve OOC coordination or the introduction of new game mechanics?
what can we do on our own without any code updates?

[Synthesis]

I was expecting a slightly different discussion in this thread.  I would like to ask

What suggestions do people have for facilitating finding RP with a small playerbase that can be done right now?
Do you have any advice that does not involve OOC coordination or the introduction of new game mechanics?
what can we do on our own without any code updates?

Everyone stores and joins the Byn.

[Beethoven]

I was expecting a slightly different discussion in this thread.  I would like to ask

What suggestions do people have for facilitating finding RP with a small playerbase that can be done right now?
Do you have any advice that does not involve OOC coordination or the introduction of new game mechanics?
what can we do on our own without any code updates?

I think the players that are left are already trying as hard as they possibly can to make this happen, and it's not happening on its own. Maybe there are things we can do to make it slightly better, but this kind of initiative is never going to be enough when we cannot in good conscience promise new/returning players that they will have regular RP in this presumably roleplay intensive game. That is a huge problem that will not go away until something tangible is changed.

[Beethoven]

I'm really shocked that any of these ideas are even controversial at this point. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and these honestly aren't even desperate measures.

I usually see about 5-12 players online at my regular playtimes, and often none of them seem to be in my area or anywhere I can find at all. This isn't just about going where the crowd already is; you can go to an empty tavern and be secure in the fact that other people will not have to stumble upon you by some stroke of luck in a very nearly empty game, but that they'll be able to see that you're there and at least have the information they need to make a decision about whether to go there or not.

I am actually...amazed that people are fighting any kind of measure like this, when the off-peak experience is basically a single-player experience. Are we trying to go down with the ship here? Because that's what this feels like.

Yes, there are some minor downsides. There are downsides to 'who c' too, but I've always found it much better than not having it in a tribal context. And I'm sad to say it, but often the entire game has the numbers that I used to see in the Tablelands alone. But do any of you guys actually, honestly think that a vast, barren, desolate text game whose numbers are constantly hemorrhaging will actually be better off when no one has any OOC or even quasi-IC tools they can use to find each other? I think it'd be great if we could just rely on chance encounters, but we aren't playing that game anymore! We can't just stick our heads in the sand and pretend this is going to get better out of our own sheer gumption when I literally have to beg the person I brought to the game to stay because he sees no one, interacts with no one, there are next to no clans to join, etc.

[Tranquil]

I'm really shocked that any of these ideas are even controversial at this point. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and these honestly aren't even desperate measures.

I usually see about 5-12 players online at my regular playtimes, and often none of them seem to be in my area or anywhere I can find at all. This isn't just about going where the crowd already is; you can go to an empty tavern and be secure in the fact that other people will not have to stumble upon you by some stroke of luck in a very nearly empty game, but that they'll be able to see that you're there and at least have the information they need to make a decision about whether to go there or not.

I am actually...amazed that people are fighting any kind of measure like this, when the off-peak experience is basically a single-player experience. Are we trying to go down with the ship here? Because that's what this feels like.

Yes, there are some minor downsides. There are downsides to 'who c' too, but I've always found it much better than not having it in a tribal context. And I'm sad to say it, but often the entire game has the numbers that I used to see in the Tablelands alone. But do any of you guys actually, honestly think that a vast, barren, desolate text game whose numbers are constantly hemorrhaging will actually be better off when no one has any OOC or even quasi-IC tools they can use to find each other? I think it'd be great if we could just rely on chance encounters, but we aren't playing that game anymore! We can't just stick our heads in the sand and pretend this is going to get better out of our own sheer gumption when I literally have to beg the person I brought to the game to stay because he sees no one, interacts with no one, there are next to no clans to join, etc.

This.

I'm actually genuinely astonished there's bite-back on this. It seems like people are trying to argue for the ship to sink, at this point. Most RPIs don't pull alot of players, and that's why these mechanics are a norm for almost every other RPI. This is why those RPIs can last with their 'community' for a long, long time.

If people play an RP game and find absolutely no RP because a couple people are scared of some incredibly arbitrary downsides to a very positive change, then, you will get a dead game sooner then later.

Just strange over-all.

[tiny rainbow]

There's a reason people keep coming back to Armageddon - Trying to remove the few things it has that differentiate it from less interesting games seems more like trying to argue for the ship to sink, because it's the kind of thing that would make us get bored of it.

I played both play styles as I was trying to point out, the important thing is to not prioritize one over the other.

It's not fair to give people a means to avoid one half of the game just because it will help the other. It's half of the game.

[dumbstruck]

There's a reason people keep coming back to Armageddon - Trying to remove the few things it has that differentiate it from less interesting games seems more like trying to argue for the ship to sink, because it's the kind of thing that would make us get bored of it.

I played both play styles as I was trying to point out, the important thing is to not prioritize one over the other.

It's not fair to give people a means to avoid one half of the game just because it will help the other. It's half of the game.

I think the problem is that they're not, though.

We literally halved, at points third, even quartered who was logged in at peak times 3 months ago.

So I think presupposing people 'keep coming back' is... disingenuous at best. And willfully blind.

[tiny rainbow]

We stopped logging on for very different reasons though. One of them is the way some city players behave. Not staff, players. Because experience as per the examples given, has proven the way this kind of thing would end up.
Giving another reason to make things less interesting is not the kind of thing the game needs right now.

Just being able to tell when people have been around would make a huge difference and stop the ships passing by problem that wouldn't be solved by this, it just turns to log in and log out instead.

[whengravityfails]

I admit I'm a huge proponent to this kind of change to help people find RP easier. We're talking about regular old tavern RP here, not who is hanging out in somewhere special. If people don't find people to play with, they're going to log out from boredom - especially when you can travel from Luir's to Storm to Nak and not find anyone.

Worse, miss people who you could have found right away if it wasn't for making unnecessary trips.

Facilitating the ease of RP immediately should be a top priority to retain or attract players.

[tiny rainbow]

It's already ridiculously too easy to travel through the desert compared to the old stories of gith and adventures, if it was updated and modernised to be more reactive (remove the feeding buff to avoid cities it was a massive mistake, add NPCs spawning up to warparties if killing lots or a big group etc) without needing staff to be there, maybe people would be in the cities more and group up for stuff instead of soloing until they get bored

[KakkarotYaBoi]

+1 to Mansas idea!

[Kankfly]

A 'where' command that shows how many PCs are in bar areas could be useful. You don't even need to show the exact sdesc of the PCs there. It could just be:

>where
>The Gladiator and the Gaj: 3 PCs.

[Jarvis]

A 'where' command that shows how many PCs are in bar areas could be useful. You don't even need to show the exact sdesc of the PCs there. It could just be:

>where
>The Gladiator and the Gaj: 3 PCs.

This one particularly appeals to me. Get to see how crowded  some hubs are without giving away who's around

[DesertT]

How about we have a Roster posted on the GDB of active clans with their player count.  Easily captured by the monthly attendance rosters that people post in their respective clan sub-forums.

I don't know that it's about finding people in game as much as it is finding people that make sense for you to roleplay with.

I also think that some of the older restrictions on in-city disallowances should cease.

I don't understand the reasoning behind allowing Templar aides into the AoD barracks if you're not going to allow them to spar.  They're not allowed a locker or a cot.  We're being overly restrictive for the sake of telling somebody NO.  There were six players on the other day and two people decided to spar together.  They received reprimands.  Why?  I think for something like sparring when both parties have access to the same barracks, that should be allowed.

I recall playing Tariq (a mundane) and getting harassed for brawling with a gemmed when I specifically had the roleplay of him kicking the gemmed off of his stool.  And please don't tell me that he shouldn't be sitting where a gemmed sat.  If that's the case, you can't walk in Allanak at all.  Beating down a gemmed (or even a breed) for a barstool should be normal.

Maybe it is time to close Allanak. Not even half of the playerbase is there.  Not even one-third.  I'd venture to say not even one-quarter.  There was an event at 1430 Server yesterday that drew four total people.  Two of them were running the event.  One of the four showed up and left.  This was announced on the GDB, announced in the rumour boards, and the bell was rung repeatedly for ten minutes prior.  There are clans that have successfully logged in similar numbers IN ONE CLAN.  Allanak has how many clans?  Byn, Guild, AoD, Oashi Circle, Eastrook, Sasani, Gemmed (now that they have a sub-forum, yay!), a few active nobles looking for aides, Kurac, Salarr, Kadius (all three looking for hunters and crafters), and Independents.  Between all those clans, only four people showed up for a time that should have worked for both American and European players.

There's a severe lack of PC leadership as well.  Maybe because nobody wants to play an underling in Allanak.

Couple the lack of PC leadership with the fact that there's no real PvE in Allanak, and with lower numbers all you have is PvP.  Sorry, but a rogue drovian alleyrat isn't what draws people to play in the city.

Having a command that shows WHERE people are playing can be helpful, but I don't believe it'll be anywhere close to enough.

[Supified]

The problem with Mansa's version is it will threaten to further enhance the problem. If someone logins to Allanak and they see no one is playing in Allanak they might log off.  Harshlands way similarly has this flaw.  If you want to play with x person and they're not on maybe you just log off. 

I think more ooc facilitation is long time coming and desperately needed, but it can have cons more so than just too much IC information.

[Supified]

I think this would be a horrible thing to do and make the game feel much more OOC, those other games don't have the secrecy element so it doesn't really matter since they don't have anything worthwhile to be interested in,

This sounds like sour grapes, especially since those other games now frequently have larger who sizes than Armageddon does.

[LetaSpringle]

The problem with Mansa's version is it will threaten to further enhance the problem. If someone logins to Allanak and they see no one is playing in Allanak they might log off.  Harshlands way similarly has this flaw.  If you want to play with x person and they're not on maybe you just log off. 

I think more ooc facilitation is long time coming and desperately needed, but it can have cons more so than just too much IC information.

I feel the same. Also easy to find your victim with some other ideas.  contact your target by name and know they're a city person. Then try where and get: There is one person in Allanak. They're in the Gaj.

goto gaj backstab target

Much easier to pk if you know where to find your targets because the ooc command tells you where to look.  Also easier to rob apartments if you know there's 5 people in Allanak and you go to the Gaj and all 5 of them are sitting at the bar.