Tavern Idlers

[Armaddict]

Alright.  I've been seeing the same guy idling in a tavern, just about twenty-four hours a day, -constantly-.  He's not linkdead, as I see him actually emote something out maybe once every three hours.  My question:

What the hell is the point?  What are you doing, trying to rack up hours so that you can say you lived so long?  What's the deal?  Cut it out.

Either log in and contribute something, or don't log in.  If you've got to idle for long time, at least make it somewhere where you aren't going to have people trying to interact with you.  It's annoying.

[Wintermute]

I happen to do this with my current character quite often.  It's part of my job description, actually.  As long as he's got some reason to be doing it (you really have no idea if he does or not), I don't see the problem.

[Armaddict]

No, I'm not talking about sit there all day.

I'm talking about move into a tavern, and go afk for all hours of a RL day.  If it's part of your job description to just sit there and not interact with ANYONE, nor flick out emotes, nor give any sign of life whatsoever...act like a linkdead PC...you've got the lamest job I've ever heard of.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

He quite obviously is not a powergamer...I mean, he can't be twinking anything other than the listen skill, and I truly doubt he is doing that so...

What is the difference between him and a NPC? Let the fellow be.

[mansa]

He's a mindbender.  Duh.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Heh.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

It happens. I've done it before. Sometimes I wander off and forget I logged out, or my sister needs to check her e-mail and that e-mail checking turns into a chatroom conversation, and that chatroom conversation turns into a music downloading, and that music downloading turns into an essay writing. It happens, and I've often come back to a noble interrogating me or a carru ripping into me or something equally heinous. I repeat: it happens.

Furthermore, as others have said, they could very well be doing something though they appear to not be doing anything. Some things they could be doing? 'listening', 'thinking' and 'psi-ing', just to name a few.

[Bestatte]

I think part of the problem, is that this isn't an NPC that an IMM can animate at will.  It's a PC who behaves like a PC. And Armaddict was being kind in his assessment. It's not just for a few hours. I've seen the one I think he's talking about sit in the same place for over a 24-hour period. Not link-dead, because every 4 or 5 hours or so he'll emote something, then go idle again.

Try interacting with that person..knowing that he's capable of interacting with you..for three days in a row and getting nothing out of him, though when you're not trying to interact with him, you notice him do something that makes it clear that he -does- check the monitor a few times a day.

In this case, I tend to agree with Armaddict. If you can't or won't be able to respond to people trying to interact with your character, the least you could do is take your character out of popular "rooms" in the game. The best you could do is logoff.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I certianly agree that the PC goes afk for extended periods of time. I just don't think it is that big of a deal. *shrug*

[Khorm]

There's a certain noble PC that may or not be still around.. she used to sit idle in a tavern for what seemed like days on end - not doing a damned thing. I even accidently kissed her while trying to "look", and didn't get any sort of response.. so just think god that this person isn't at their keyboard and waiting for you to fuck up!

[Armaddict]

Sorry, I just had to say, Khorm.  Your little MC hammer dude rocks.

[Stroker]

Obviously he does something, he needs food and water to survive, eventually sid will run out and he'll do something. Patience, my fellow followers, patience.

[Idle Bashtard]

I'm an NPC, really!
Ok, seriously, if it bothers someone -that- much that I'm idle a lot of the time, call in a Templar, accuse me of magicking, and have me killed if I don't respond in time.  I honestly won't mind.

The point though?  I find that a funny question coming from someone who calls himself an "Armaddict."  I'm hooked, and while rl duties do not allow me to play actively, I simply like being able to pull up the window and see how things are rolling in Arm.

Bestatte, I see your point that if a PC does need to speak with my char, that can cause a problem.  I tried to avoid this by not becomming clanned/affiliated with anyone or any plots.  Unfortunately, those damned recruiters wouldn't leave me alone, and one did manage to hire me the third or fourth time around.  Your best bet may be to kill my PC and hope I manage to remain a truely unaffiliated PC next time, so there will be no reason to interact with me.  Public execution would hopefully allow for some fun rp, eh guys?  

[Angela Christine]

Use the gone command.  That way if people try to talk to you they will get a message that you are gone, and they can get on with their lives.

GONE    (Communication)

When a message is attached to this command, all incoming communication requests will be replied to with that message. It is useful for instances when no one is aware that you have left your terminal. You will not be able to do anything with your character while he/she is in a 'gone' state. When you return to your terminal, type "gone" by itself to return the character to his/her normal state.

Syntax:
    gone <message>
    gone

Example:
    > gone afk a while, back soon
    > gone

Notes:
    The command automatically appends a period to your message,
whether you have one there already. Thus, "gone for coffee." will give other players the message "<your character's sdesc> is gone for coffee.."

    While you are gone, your character can still be robbed or killed. If
you are going to be gone for a while, it might be a good idea to just log out (see help quit).

[Bestatte]

I'd also request, Idle, that if you -are- going to remain idle for hours and hours, that you please not take up one of the actual tables. You can just as easily use a virtual table, and leave the existing coded ones for people who want to use them actively.

[sarahjc]

I agree Bestatte, though is does urk me that the PC just sits there for what really is days..Its worse when they take up a table. But if it was the couch, the PC would have been dead already.

[Krath]

If anyone sits on my damned couch, days upon days on end..Heads will roll!

[Tavern Idler #2]

What the hell is the point? What are you doing, trying to rack up hours so that you can say you lived so long? What's the deal? Cut it out.

I play a special role that generally needs to meet the needs of other players. I work as a link between players and the imms and make things easier on both parties. While I don't tavern idle for literally 24/7, I might do it for hours at a time. During this time I might pull up an emulator and play a game and occasionally check back or watch TV in the nearby room, checking back every five or ten minutes.

I do this to make myself available. It's easier on everyone to wait five minutes while I get back from AFK than spend hours trying to get me that I spend logged off. Now you can either choose to be thankful for this or just bitch and moan about something that doesn't effect you. It's your choice.

[marilla]

#2: My role isn't as special as yours, but I also am in a Tavern a lot to be available.

I probably spend 80% of my time on-line in one spot. Often it is very quiet, sometimes there are no visible PCs, sometimes there are those who are not interested in interacting with my character. I let them be.

I know many will now squeek that I should be 'soloplaying' there, but  I play on average 10 hours a day (trying to cut down). I am there to be available and when something happens I react.

If someone addresses me and doesn't get a reply within three minutes, I was probably in the bathroom, or linkdead. Or very, very busy dealing with the voices in my head. Or, I am typing a response but delete it as you walk out.

As for someone kissing my character all of the sudden, I don't recall that happening. If it ever would though, I would most likely ignore it and assume it was a typo. It would be really silly to get upset over an OOC slip up, wouldn't it?

If you really do want to kiss my character and suffer the consequenses make sure to emote it in a way it cannot be mistaken for 'k woman'. :twisted:

[spawnloser]

I can understand having a special role and being available...but I am currently filling a special role as well, and I don't feel the need to idle my ass off in a tavern.  Really, you shouldn't be available 100% of the time, so don't feel the need to be logged in that long.  If you're a noble, you have family business to deal with.  If you're militia, you have your patrols to do...or Templars to blow, depending on the day of the week of course.  If you're merchant house family, same as nobles, you have family business to attend to.  You're not the only family member, but you also don't only do business with PCs...there are plenty of VNPCs that want to buy/rent your particular family's wares.  Staying idle in the tavern will screw with people and will piss people off...and there are people out there that believe in the 'punishment worse than death' idea and may simply screw you over big time.

[Ralin]

If anyone sits on my damned couch, days upon days on end..Heads will roll!

This should prolly be in the urges thread, but if I walked into the Barrel and noticed that happening, I'd keep tabs on the room until another PC arrived, or hell...maybe not, could entertain an Imm with this...

Just have my PC sit in the other PC's lap and say:
"Did I wear you out -THAT- bad? You haven't moved from this couch in a week and you still have the same smile on your face! Damn I'm good!"

Then just get up and walk out.  :shock:

[aeshyw]

I have a suggestion for those 'tavern' sitters in special roles that feel it neccesary to sit afk in a tavern just so that they'll be available.  Its not a perfect suggestion, but its something I've done on more then one occasion myself, because I also play a role that many people depend upon at the moment.

Rent a house or find an empty place in your clan compound.  If you're available via the Way, that's not just as good, but -better- then being unavailable in a tavern.  If people contact you and you don't answer right away, they'll assume you're in a meeting or standing and walking or doing something else IC that keeps you from an immediate response.  There's no consequences to -other- players at all if you're idling somewhere alone where no one else can get to.  And if you're idling to be there for them, why disrupt their feeling of 'realness' by being visibly away if you can help it?

There's a great term called the 'Suspension of Disbelief' that really applies to Armageddon. The game is at its most fun when you're lost in the story and completely immersed and dying to know what happens next.  No one who really enjoys that wants to take it away from other players...and I think most people who end up sticking around in leader type positions do want to make the game more fun for the people they play with.  So...rent a house..find a room...go to a temple, change your ldesc to 'kneeling in meditation' or something...but give -other- people an IC reason to not have to wonder why you look like a statue with its mouth open.  If you're already playing a leader, you're already trying to make things better for them. Why not take the extra step?

[Bestatte]

I should note to everyone who's talking about people in special roles, that Armaddict's first post starting this thread had nothing to do with any of them.

So far, I've seen lots of "special" characters sit idle, but like Marilla and Aeshyw and countless others, you have all been attentive (with the occasional and reasonable bathroom break/phone call exception).

Armaddict, me, and probably a few others are referring to people of -any- role, parking their character in a popular area for HOURS AND HOURS WITHOUT MOVING. Real hours, not game hours. We're talking between five and 15 hours every 24-hour period, or longer. Even the NPCs in the taverns have ldescs showing that they're doing -something.' Swilling ale, chatting with a friend, racing a cockroach...

And none of these NPCs are taking up a coded table. They're using virtual tables, thus leaving the coded ones for PCs who might want to use them. In addition, the fact that they're NPCs allows IMMs to animate them from time to time.

A PC taking up the biggest table in the room for up to (and sometimes longer than) a real-life 24-hour period prevents anyone else from sitting their clan down to a celebration party, or a hunting party gathering together for drinks before dawn, or whatever else. If the player of a character who does this has no intention of paying attention, then he shouldn't be occupying the table. And he probably also shouldn't be logged on, but I would be overjoyed if he simply removed his PC from the room and plunked him somewhere that people don't normally congregate.

[Sephiroto]

I do a decent amount of idling at times.  Generally it is in one of those 'away' places where I can still be found if things -do- happen.  Otherwise I may spend 20% of my time semi-afk just observing and 10%afk just waiting/eating/watching TV for a few minutes.  I'm definately not a hardcore tavern idler, but nor do I see a problem with it.  That is, unless, you login just to go afk for...an hour or two all the time.  Typically I like to keep those 'idle' periods short so that I can send little emails or whatever or just relax and still have an opportunity to jump into some RP if something happens.  I really don't see what the problem is with it.  If you find one of my characters idling talk to them and give them something to do  I find that much better than logging in, typing who, then quitting because I don't see anyone.

[__Torax__]

Damn, I read this post and I realize how nit-picky and generally fucking moronic most of you are.... Good God...

[Bestatte]

I do a decent amount of idling at times.  Generally it is in one of those 'away' places where I can still be found if things -do- happen.  Otherwise I may spend 20% of my time semi-afk just observing and 10%afk just waiting/eating/watching TV for a few minutes.  I'm definately not a hardcore tavern idler, but nor do I see a problem with it.  That is, unless, you login just to go afk for...an hour or two all the time.  Typically I like to keep those 'idle' periods short so that I can send little emails or whatever or just relax and still have an opportunity to jump into some RP if something happens.  I really don't see what the problem is with it.  If you find one of my characters idling talk to them and give them something to do  I find that much better than logging in, typing who, then quitting because I don't see anyone.

Read my above post Seph. I don't think ANYONE has a problem with people who sit around idle for a bit here and a bit there. If they do, then I refer you to Torax's post, who expresses his disdain for nitpicky people.

To repeat - yet again: The problem is with people who sit around idle MOST of the time and take up space and don't roleplay in any way, shape, or form for hours and hours and hours in a popular public place.

I'll try that once more..not for Seph since I'm sure he got it in the last paragraph, but for everyone else who feels some need to justify being idle for ten minutes at a time:

No one's talking about you. You're FINE. No one is taking issue with your sporadic AFK moments. The issue is with people who might as well be link dead, because they don't respond until the next crash when they have to log on and sit there until the next crash, doing absolutely nothing at all.

Try the "gone" command like suggested previously, so no one wastes their time trying to interact with a fucking statue zombie. If I wanted to deal with that I'd go back and play Gemstone.

Grrr.

[__Torax__]

You know... I was brought to this MUD by a friend... He used to tell me all the stories of all the things he did and it just amazed me.. I've been playing here for almost 7 months now and I've made some catastrophic mistakes that will most likly never land me any kharma or Immortal help when needed. But I love this game, I just cant get enough of it.. But every time I come to this GDB and read some post, I get so pissed I have to go lay down and cool off because I so badly want to say something to you all. If you all would spend half the time you spend sitting on here talking shit, you would have full kharma by now. My friend told me when I first came here and all I wanted was kharma because I want to play a magicker. He told me, "You play for yourself. You dont play for anyone else in the MUD. Not the Immortals, not the other players. You do what makes you happy and keep to the rules set forth by the ArmageddonMUD." Now, if idling makes this man happy because he doesnt have the time to activly play but wants to see what is happening, by all means do it. I've got absolutly no problem with it. But then we've got the other people that play this MUD who think they are some kind of Gods gift and believe they need to criticize everyone for something they do. I just dont understand why you people cant shut your mouths and play the game for what it is.

With that said, I know an Immortal will most likly remove my post and possibly ban me from this GDB so I'll make it just a bit more easy.. Sanvean, Nessalin.. Whoever Admins this board, please delete this account from here because I will no longer be visiting this board.

[Carnage]

Who says they're not doing things you can't see? Mindbending or contacting people or plotting their next move. You don't know. I think this entire thing is pretty goddamn nitpicky. Boo hoo, so a table is occupied. Write in and ask for more tables or move to another bar. Just because the Barrel is occupied doesn't mean the Gaj is filled up.

[Bestatte]

Who says they're not doing things you can't see? Mindbending or contacting people or plotting their next move. You don't know. I think this entire thing is pretty goddamn nitpicky. Boo hoo, so a table is occupied. Write in and ask for more tables or move to another bar. Just because the Barrel is occupied doesn't mean the Gaj is filled up.

He said so himself. Read back a few posts. He logs in just to be logged in, even though he knows he won't be paying any attention to the game. I'm sorry, but this is a roleplaying game. Being idle for 10 minutes here, 15 minutes there, ain't no thang. Being idle in the most populated tavern in the city for 10 real-life hours is not roleplaying. It's not bad roleplaying, it isn't good roleplaying. It's just not roleplaying at all.

[Carnage]

He said so himself. Read back a few posts. He logs in just to be logged in, even though he knows he won't be paying any attention to the game. I'm sorry, but this is a roleplaying game. Being idle for 10 minutes here, 15 minutes there, ain't no thang. Being idle in the most populated tavern in the city for 10 real-life hours is not roleplaying. It's not bad roleplaying, it isn't good roleplaying. It's just not roleplaying at all.

The point though? I find that a funny question coming from someone who calls himself an "Armaddict." I'm hooked, and while rl duties do not allow me to play actively, I simply like being able to pull up the window and see how things are rolling in Arm.

I don't understand what all of your problems are. Who fucking cares what he does? It's not hurting your characters. The "best" argument I've seen is "OMGWTFBBQ HE'S TAEKING UP A TAAAABLE!!!!1". Goddamn, just find another place to sit. Or let's just decree that anyone who sits by themself MUST sit at the bar or share. He's playing within the rules of the game, he's not disturbing anyone, I can't comprehend what all of your problems are with this. Grow up and play the fucking game instead of coming to the GDB and bitching about something so minute.

[spawnloser]

Now, if idling makes this man happy because he doesnt have the time to activly play but wants to see what is happening, by all means do it.

As Bestatte said, this is not roleplaying...in a roleplaying game.  If you don't have time to play, don't play.

Second, Torax, if you can't deal with people having differing opinions from yourself, seriously, don't come back.  Do you get up and walk out of work when your boss disagrees with how something should be done, telling him/her to fire you right then and there because you won't be coming back?  Calm down.  Discuss.  Don't take it so personally.

[Angela Christine]

I have to agree with Torax and Carnage, what this guy is doing just doesn't seem that heinous to me.  If Armageddon is a story, this guy is in the audience.  Obviously sitting in an isolated location wouldn't help, because you can't see anything from a private room.

On the other hand, a little courtesy never hurt anyone.  Using the gone command, sitting at a virtual table, and setting your ldesc to something like "sits at a small table here" would clear up most of the complaints without putting the idlers out.  

As for individuals taking up tablespace, I don't see the problem.  There is a PC convention that someone sitting at a table other than the bar "owns" the table, but that doesn't mean it is an IC convention.  There are plenty of historical and cultural examples where empty seats at a public table don't belong to anyone, I've been to picknics and banquets where people could sit at any available seat, regardless of who else was at the table.  Unless the person at the table is a noble, I see nothing wrong with a party sitting down at the "other end" of the table.  Why let some spice-addled drunk ruin your fun?

AC

[God]

I also find all this bitching really ridiculous. Please, stop, you're harrassing me. And I'm not kidding. I'm probably ocassionally one of those tavern idlers. Stop calling me useless.

Really, all these people are doing is hurting themselves. If they aren't doing anything, as Dirr said, they'll run out of food and water soon enough, and then they'll have to do something. Just because they don't feel the need to run around and

spam

their skills doesn't mean they're hurting the game.

Besides this, you're obviously exaggerating the "problem". In all my days here, I have never seen anyone who sits in a spot for days on end without doing -anything-. Usually they're a part of the social RP, and for that, I congratulate them. Some people are more interested in social interaction, or listening to social interaction in the meantime, then running around hunting, pickpocketing, and maxing their skillz.

[God]

*mutters* Meant to bold that spam instead of quote it.

[Armaddict]

Hey hey hey, You people are the ones blowing it out of proportion.  I said it was annoying, and that it would be a lot better if people just wouldn't log in if they were just going to idle for hours on end.

Don't bitch at me because I actually said my opinion.  Bastards.

[mansa]

I think the biggest argument was that...  someone was sitting in the only table in a tavern that seats more than five people, besides the bar.

So.  To those who idle, or even go afk, which is two different things... I say, "move to a smaller table, please, when you do what you do.  let the larger groups use that silly large table"



I'll use an in game example, that I know doesn't happen.

It's like having someone go linkdead, sitting at the broad table in the Bard's Barrel.  And you just walk in there with your clannies, wanting to stay visible to the general population, but it wouldn't be reasonable to sit at the bar.  So..what do you do?
You end up going back to your estate to do a general 'chat' and you lose the interaction with the whole world, and become isolated.

[Callisto]

Don't bitch at me because I actually said my opinion.  Bastards.

He is correct, you are all bastards.

[naatok]

I understand the idea of being idle sometimes...especially during a work day RL.  I do agree one should use the 'gone' command if not able to pay attention to the mud window though.  It's just a courtesy.

As for those voyeurs who walk into the tavern and stare at a few select PCs....well, heh...I've had this silly notion....correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't some of you folk out there who are doing this, doing so to add to your sdesc database?  I mean, c'mon.  Let's say there's six PCs in the tavern and you waltz in and look at one of them.  Isn't that usually because you've not seen that sdesc before?   :evil:

Maybe I'm just a freakin' cynic.  Maybe I'm just miffed 'cause no one stares at my twisted PC who will usually stick a hand in his pants and start fondling himself when someone just walks in and looks at one or two PCs and then turns to walk back out again.   :?

[Stroker]

Second, Torax, if you can't deal with people having differing opinions from yourself, seriously, don't come back. Do you get up and walk out of work when your boss disagrees with how something should be done, telling him/her to fire you right then and there because you won't be coming back? Calm down. Discuss. Don't take it so personally.

Oh believe me, s/he can deal with them. The problem here lies not in the difference of opinions, but in the fact that people manage to bring this up, as though it is important. Apparently, since many replied, it is. What is the importance of this thread and contents?

Some people don't like tavern idlers ... What are reasons for this? They don't contribute to the game, in other words they don't rp, and they take up necessary room.

How do npcs contribute to the game? They just sit there doing nothing. They do, however, add realism. That you are not the only coded entity. This pc adds the same realism. If nothing else, s/he is there. If he manages to squeak in an emote every once in a while, good, the better.

Onto a different part of my post:

Armaddict? Who died and made you a staff member? Why have you decided this character adds nothing to the game? Who are you tell him to leave? Show some god damn decency and respect.

Mansa? You do realize you could just as well use a virtual table with your group of clan members? Good. I thought you did.

I know it's hard to be abstract for you people (damn capitalist pigs), but come on! We're all here to have fun, so let others have fun.

[__Torax__]

Spawnloser, infact I dont ask them to fire me, I usually walk out. Because if it is something as stupid and fucking moronic as what this prick is whinning about, I believe that shows a lack of knowledge, and if its my boss, I'd consider that poor management. So yes, I do leave the place and go work for someone else. Did I take it personal? No, I am just so tired of signing into this GDB and seeing nothing but 'discussions' which is only really morons whinning or bitching about something. The only reason I look on this GDB is because it answers some questions that I have and also because some of the time it'll provide me with some new views or interprotations of certain RP. Having a run through here seeing someone crying about idle players is a little bit annoying.. No infact, its immensly annoying.

[flurry]

Edited to remove my snarky comment.   Sorry.

Seriously, the only thing worse than threads than seem trivial, are people who feel the need to post saying that the topic is unimportant.  

Different people find different issues important.   It's okay, there's lots of room at the GDB for different topics.

[__Torax__]

You do have a point, and if I'm correct in assuming your trying to make a point about one of my earlier posts...

The first one, yes it was out of newbieness because I wasnt exactly sure even though it did say 24 hours. I was trying to make sure my app. got accepted so that I could proceed in playing my next character.

The second, was out of sheer boredom and the act of being stupid. And if you read that post you would surely see it was myself playing stupid throughout the entire post while people believed I didnt know about the 24 hour waiting period, which I explicitly said I did in the very orginal post.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Ok, look. Let it go. That's enough. The idler no longer occupies any of your precious tables. He'll still be there, keeping company with the VNPCs and NPCs and all, but he'll not obstruct your sitting spaces.

Aside from that single inconvienence, there is nothing else to complain about. Let it go. Thank you.

[Carnage]

Alright. I've been seeing the same guy idling in a tavern, just about twenty-four hours a day, -constantly-. He's not linkdead, as I see him actually emote something out maybe once every three hours. My question:

What the hell is the point? What are you doing, trying to rack up hours so that you can say you lived so long? What's the deal? Cut it out.

Either log in and contribute something, or don't log in. If you've got to idle for long time, at least make it somewhere where you aren't going to have people trying to interact with you. It's annoying.

Hey hey hey, You people are the ones blowing it out of proportion. I said it was annoying, and that it would be a lot better if people just wouldn't log in if they were just going to idle for hours on end.

No. You told them to "Either log in and contribute something, or don't log in". You didn't ask, you demanded.

Armaddict? Who died and made you a staff member? Why have you decided this character adds nothing to the game? Who are you tell him to leave? Show some god damn decency and respect.

Bolded because Dirr is right fucking on.

[crymerci]

Does "gone" actually work?  I've never seen it do so.

[Bestatte]

Yeah, if you try to talk to someone who's "gone" you get a message saying they're gone. I think it also works when you try to whisper to them. Just "tell" and "whisper" though as far as I know. I don't know about the Way, but I do know you can still target them in emotes and that kind of thing.

[spawnloser]

It doesn't give a message when a 'gone' person is 'way'd to.

[Rindan]

I think you people all need to chill and stick to debate.  One of the GDBs functions is to serve as a place for debate.  The GDB is often the only way to discuss certain types of behavior because OOCing in game is inappropriate, and e-mailing the staff about things that are not technically illegal is annoying and likely to result in inaction.  That leaves the GDB as the only other medium left.  The original poster might have found a more tactful to bring the issue up, but the fact that the issue was brought up is not a bad thing, regardless if you age or not with the original posters conclusion.

The behavior of others is not a taboo subject on the GDB.  If anything, it is probably the most widely discussed subject simply because it is one of the few things anyone can change without having an imm character.  This "shut up and stop commenting on other people" attitude is ridiculous in my opinion.  It certainly can be done more tactfully in the future, but the act itself is not some how bad or wrong.  

I like comments on behavior because some times they are commenting on my behavior.  While it might offend some that people have an opinion on their behavior, I find it useful.  Many times I completely disagree with comments on my behavior and happily ignore it.  Some times the comments instantly register with me, I see something I had not seen before, and change my behavior.  Some times after long debates I slowly refine my opinion into something new or something more defined.  This is a good thing.  While there is much that can be learned through pure observation, it doesn't hurt to have the occasional peer point out something that I might not have noticed.

This thread is no different in my mind, except that people started taking it personally from the beginning.  In an ideal world no one would be emotional when writing criticism and everyone would respond to that criticism in an unemotional way.  This is not an ideal world.  One of the greatest attributes that I think it almost essential throughout all of life is the ability to take criticism without taking it personally, even in instances when it is worded in such a way to personal.  If you can't not take criticism personally, I would highly suggest avoiding the GDB like the plague.  If you can avoid getting emotional over such things, then I think you will find the GDB to be a powerful tool.

[Wintermute]

What is your problem, people?

What if I wanted to play a character that didn't want to interact with any of yours, but still liked sitting in taverns for whatever the hell reason?

Why don't you just treat the tavern idler ICly - he's simply ignoring you.  Wow, all of a sudden he's part of the game again.  If you're a noble and your character is a pretentious, pompous ass, have the guy dragged out and killed.  If you're a lowly commoner, do what you will - if you want to drag him out and kill him yourself, well hey there's code to support you doing exactly that.  Unless they've used the gone command, there really isn't much of an excuse - they're simply not responding to whatever you're doing to them, same as if they were sitting ready at their client prompt not responding to whatever you're doing to them, resulting in their character ICly not responding to you.

If someone wants to log in with their character and idle, power to them.  If someone wants to log in with their character and emote scratching at a pus-filled scab on their face every three seconds, power to them too.  I honestly don't see the difference here.  And don't give me that table crap - if you're really that desperate to not have your conversation broadcast to the tavern by talking a) standing around or b) as someone suggested sitting at a virtual table of your own, why are you in there in the first place?

[Anonymous]

I'd just ignore their PC or roleplay that they are busy in a conversation.  What's wrong with someone wanting to idle and spectate while they are doing something else?

It's a fun 5 second diversion for someone who sounds busy.

I think the suggestions about sitting at a virtual table or the bar or a small table make sense, but not this 'roleplay or get out' junk.

[Impska]

I like comments on behavior because some times they are commenting on my behavior.

Right on, Rindan. People are taking this threat way too personally.

I spent a long time as "The Eternal Twink Newb" because the GDB didn't exist when I first started playing (or my version of the internet didn't really handle it - I'm not sure which). I owe discussions on player behaviour a lot for how I play now.

Thanks to people like you, I'm not friendly with magickers; I'm racist; I treat nobles right; I don't twink out the steal skill; I now know it's not acceptable to steal from people who are emoting holding the item I'm stealing, or otherwise paying attention to it; I don't apply for special roles unless I'm willing to contribute to the game; and all the countless other things that are considered "good".

So remember, every time you're tempted to get uppity because someone is commenting on behaviour, maybe that thread is actually helping someone. And every time you're tempted to post "This threat is revisited month after month, let's give it a rest", remember that month after month new players join the game who may find that thread useful, and old players who never listened before might finally get what the big deal is.

[Stroker]

and all the countless other things that are considered "good".

There are a variety of definitions for good and bad. Therefore, following the assumption of a group of people is doubtful. I prefer to decipher my own meaning and adhere to it accordingly.

Rightfully, I stand against such blatant inconsideration. It does not offend me, as I am not one of the types that are described in this thread. However, I am still opposed to such behavior. Deciding who stays and who leaves is only up to the player, and maybe the Staff. Truly, if the player decides to stay, no one would be able to stop him/her. Such threads as this only manage to evoke negative comments from others. A good example is Armageddonsecrets - and his/her yahoo group. Obviously, s/he felt offended by threads just as like this one.

Dirr the Soviet

[John]

This player is roleplaying poorly.

Poor roleplay is defined as doing stuff that is unrealistic. Sitting in a tavern for more then 1 IC day is unrealistic. Therefore he is roleplaying poorly. It's the same reason people aren't allowed to spar in the Byn for days on end.

Sometimes it becomes necessary to stay in a tavern for more then a day, because conversations that should only take 2 hours, do only take 2 hours (OOC hours that is). People make excuses for NPCs and link dead people (they can't help it). However there is no excuse for going afk for IC days on end in a tavern. If this is going to happen to you, you shouldn't be somewhere as easily as abuseable as a tavern.

After all, you might be spying on lord hobknob and watching who comes and goes from his table. Your not there so you just read the log. That is making it impossible to tell that is what your doing by using OOC means. It's the same reason it's frowned upon to make yourself look like a n00b. It's an OOC device that has IC consequences.

What if I wanted to play a character that didn't want to interact with any of yours, but still liked sitting in taverns for whatever the hell reason?

There's a difference between not interacting with the character and not interacting with the player.

[Carnage]

This player is roleplaying poorly.

Poor roleplay is defined as doing stuff that is unrealistic. Sitting in a tavern for more then 1 IC day is unrealistic. Therefore he is roleplaying poorly. It's the same reason people aren't allowed to spar in the Byn for days on end.

Hey John, who died and made you King of Roleplay? Since when do you even know what this character is like and what they do? Should we have our PCs get up and stop what they're doing between x-y amount of time and go do something else or be labelled as "roleplaying poorly"? I guess we're all playing poorly when we stay logged in for a few hours and don't use the 'sleep' command. You know, since it's unrealistic for a character to stay up for a few days at a time without sleeping.

The reason people aren't allowed to spar in the Byn for days on end is because you're twinking out with no thought towards roleplaying. You're just powerlevelling up your skills just to power them. It's kind of the exact opposite of sitting in a tavern and doing absolutely nothing.

People make excuses for NPCs and link dead people (they can't help it). However there is no excuse for going afk for IC days on end in a tavern. If this is going to happen to you, you shouldn't be somewhere as easily as abuseable as a tavern.

What the hell are you talking about? He's "abusing" a tavern? How do you go about doing that?

After all, you might be spying on lord hobknob and watching who comes and goes from his table. Your not there so you just read the log. That is making it impossible to tell that is what your doing by using OOC means. It's the same reason it's frowned upon to make yourself look like a n00b. It's an OOC device that has IC consequences.

Then technically isn't not emoting that you're staring at his table or constantly glancing towards it godawful play too, since it's making it impossible to "tell that is what your(sic) doing by using OOC means"? Stealing without emoting is just as bad too because I can't tell what you're doing by using OOC means. Listening without constantly emoting that you're doing that is horrible too.  :roll:

This thread's had its run and needs to be locked before we get more of this ridiculous elitist crap.

[Armaddict]

Yeah, I stopped posting.  You people have no self-control.  *snicker*

Buh-bye, then.

[Angela Christine]

Idea:  Have the mud auto-quit people who are idle for an hour, whether they are in a quit room or not.  This would help in a variety of situations.

-Some guy is idling for long periods of time, driving parts of the player base into an enraged frenzy with his inactivity.

-Your power or ISP goes down, leaving standing inertly someplace, and this usually seems to happen to me when I'm somewhere that it is not safe to stand around link-dead and vulnerable.  An hour gives anyone that was after you a fair chance to get you, without leaving you in the desert to die of hunger.  (Ginka doesn't always detect that you are link dead, sometimes it can't tell the difference between link dead and idle.)

-You get distracted.  You get up for "just a minute" to walk the dog or make a snack, or you close the MUD window to check your email, but then one thing leads to another and instead of being gone a couple minutes you are gone for hours.  A friend or relative calls and needs to talk.  An asteroid hits Singapore, and you are too busy watching CNN to remember to quit out of the game.  You stay up too late and fall asleep at the keyboard.  Et cetra.  In all these cases you are not linkdead, so your character will continue to get hungry and thirsty until they die, the MUD crashes or you return to the game.  

In these situations it would be really helpful if Ginka just booted your ass off the MUD after an hour.

AC

[X-D]

Yeah, What carnage said (cringe).

Besides, IRL I've several times stayed in the same bar for 14-37 hours, and only twice was it someplace you could gamble.

IG, I've watched chars sit in a tavern for a few days, hell, I've done it, And they and I sit, don't do much, eat a bit, drink a bit, throw out an emote now and again, Personaly I don't see why anybody would be bothered by it, least it's better then the npc's stationed in the taverns, that poor soldier in sanc has been standing there not eating, drinking or anything, 9 hours a day 11 days a week for at least 26 ic years now...Well, she talked a week or so ago.


Just think of the long time tavern idlers as npc's with really cool scripts:)

[Callisto]

This thread's had its run and needs to be locked before we get more of this ridiculous elitist crap.

He's so dreamy!  :oops:

[spawnloser]

I'm with the Airconditioned Coupe on this one.  I'm also with John.  It IS unrealistic to be in a bar that long.  I say boot the idlers.

[John]

The reason people aren't allowed to spar in the Byn for days on end is because you're twinking out with no thought towards roleplaying.

So "roleplay" and "realism" only extends to coded skills?

[God]

[/quote]So "roleplay" and "realism" only extends to coded skills?

Unless you can prove to me that every day you play, when it hits night, you sleep, then you can't talk. And even if you do do that, then I'm just gonna think you're stupid(I already think you're far too impressionable). People play this game to have fun - it's not real life, it's not completely realistic, and to pretend that it is completely realistic is foolish. Why don't you go pick on one of those stationary NPCs about not moving?

[John]

Unless you can prove to me that every day you play, when it hits night, you sleep, then you can't talk.

Everyone agrees that that's acceptable. Obviously by this thread  not everyone agrees that idling in a tavern for hours on end is acceptable.

Also, you might want to cut down on the personal attacks.

[spawnloser]

Certain elements of realism are left out for playability issues.  Some should be left in, however.  Sitting in one place emoting a shuffle every couple of hours...then nothing for ten hours straight?  That is unrealistic to a huge level.  The reason that some people are probably upset about this is that it is a PC...NPCs are one thing, as they can be animated by an immortal, if interaction is called for, but a PC can not and thus can not react to something that s/he should.  That is unrealistic.

[Wintermute]

Certain elements of realism are left out for playability issues.  Some should be left in, however.  Sitting in one place emoting a shuffle every couple of hours...then nothing for ten hours straight?  That is unrealistic to a huge level.  The reason that some people are probably upset about this is that it is a PC...NPCs are one thing, as they can be animated by an immortal, if interaction is called for, but a PC can not and thus can not react to something that s/he should.  That is unrealistic.

Why is this unrealistic?  Seriously, if you're not expected to emote your character blinking every few seconds, why is there a line drawn in the sand for ten IC hours?  If you're going to be a proponent of playability, why aren't you considering that playability is a different thing for different people?

Besides, the character is doing something.  He/she is sitting at a table in a tavern.   :twisted:

[John]

For those saying it's perfectly fine to do the exact same thing for 4 OOC hours. Do you think it's perfectly fine to mud-sex for 4 OOC hours? If not, why not?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I look at it like this: It is unimportant how long you do something, if it takes that long to do it. Mudsexxing might take 4 OOC hours if there is a couple afks, slow emoting, and descriptive activities. So, it is relative to the events at hand. It's certianly not that bad.

On top of that....geez, it's just sitting at a tavern! Leave the bastard alone!

66 posts, including mine, on this weak-ass topic! Damn! Let's discuss how to better the world, yeah? God help me, let it go.

[Angela Christine]

For those saying it's perfectly fine to do the exact same thing for 4 OOC hours. Do you think it's perfectly fine to mud-sex for 4 OOC hours? If not, why not?

That depends, does Sting have a PC here?  That tantric sex stuff is supposed to go on for days.

Sure, what the idler is doing isn't a -good- thing.  No one is saying, "wow, what a great idea, we should all sit around idle in the taverns instead of logging off!"  But it doesn't seem like an awful, dispicable thing either.  As I understand it he has moved away from the big table, so what he is doing is basically harmless.

AC

[Anonymous]

For those saying it's perfectly fine to do the exact same thing for 4 OOC hours. Do you think it's perfectly fine to mud-sex for 4 OOC hours? If not, why not?

Apples and oranges.

Inside a tavern there is shade, cover from the sands, food and water to be bought and sleeping accomodations.  Why leave?  I once spent RL days inside a van traveling.  Was I abusing the van in RL?

Considering all of the above I don't think it would be a stretch to imagine someone spending IC weeks inside of a tavern.

[spawnloser]

Wintermute...I said my piece.  I'll sum it up again so that you don't miss the vital points.  It's unrealistic because he doesn't move and can't because the person is AFK for hours on end.  Also, the reason to allow certain things comes down to playability.  That's it.

[Anonymous]

Wintermute...I said my piece.  I'll sum it up again so that you don't miss the vital points.  It's unrealistic because he doesn't move and can't because the person is AFK for hours on end.  Also, the reason to allow certain things comes down to playability.  That's it.

Which makes him different from the NPCs in the bar how?

Let the guy have his fun, he's not hurting anyone.

[John]

Mudsexxing might take 4 OOC hours if there is a couple afks, slow emoting, and descriptive activities. So, it is relative to the events at hand.

The staff disagree and have said before that taking several IC days to mud-sex is frowned upon.

Which makes him different from the NPCs in the bar how?

[removes sarcastic response] How about I not emote anywhere except for a few alias's? That's what NPCs do. How about I ignore everyone that talks to me unless they say only "topics, names, rumors" to me. How about I walk around from room to room, not doing anything and ignoring every militia person that tries to talk to me, after all, that's what NPCs do. Sorry if that sounds narky I'm just getting sick of that argument.  Oh and I have nothing against this one particular person the thread was made about. I haven't even seen him, I'm just talking about the act of idling in taverns for OOC hours on end.

Let the guy have his fun, he's not hurting anyone.

I'm glad the docs don't limit enforcing roleplay to situations where "someone is hurt" because I wouldn't have even taken one look at the game.

[Carnage]

The staff disagree and have said before that taking several IC days to mud-sex is frowned upon.

Where?

[Anonymous]

How about I not emote anywhere except for a few alias's? That's what NPCs do. How about I ignore everyone that talks to me unless they say only "topics, names, rumors" to me. How about I walk around from room to room, not doing anything and ignoring every militia person that tries to talk to me, after all, that's what NPCs do. Sorry if that sounds narky I'm just getting sick of that argument.

You aren't the only one.  My point was that a PC stuck in NPC mode for hours on end is negatively affecting the game as much as an NPC.  They confuse newbies as much as an NPC.

This is one of those times where someone else's conduct truly does not affect your play and therefore should be let be.

[Anonymous]

So this PC and me are somewhere, and something really horrible happens. We both witness it, it's traumatic. A big deal.

Me and him talk about it for a little bit, eventually things calm down enough that we can get back to the business of living, but the issue isn't resolved yet and needs to be.

So the next RL day I see him at a tavern sitting at a table and ask if he's heard any news. He doesn't respond. I figure okay, well maybe he's link-dead or just afk for a smoke. 20 minutes later I try again. No response. Okay I guess that means he's link dead, no biggie, I'll try later.

Two hours (real time, not game time) later I try again. No response. The next day I try again. No response. I mean, this is a BIG DEAL that we both witnessed, something that the city would take major issue with, and him and I and one other PC are the only witnesses to it, so he -really- needs to talk to the Law enforcement people about it. It's a simple question I want to ask - has he spoken with the Law enforcement people yet?

After three real-life days of seeing him sitting there, there's still no response. None at all. And it's my character's word at stake, because it's one of those Big Deals that most people wouldn't believe unless more than one person saw it.

Eventually the Big Deal is resolved without the AFK guy, but not until after my character's credibility is put to question.

This -does- hurt me, it hurts my character's credibility (which is something she takes seriously), it hurts her psyche (because she needs confirmation that no, she wasn't just stark raving bonkers when she witnessed this thing, it really did happen).

Now fast forward a few weeks, and this guy is still there. He's clanned. Employed by someone that people would want to get in touch with, but who is hardly ever around. A noble comes by asking the guy where his boss is. No response. Okay maybe he's just link dead or AFK for a smoke. 20 minutes later, a repeat of the question. No response. A few days later and he's still sitting there. No response. In the meantime, the noble's player has to decide - do I kill this guy for daring to not respond to me? Or do I accept that his player isn't watching and cut him some slack?

The noble shouldn't -have- to decide. The guy shouldn't be putting people into the position of having to roleplay around his character's existence. It wastes everyone else's time, on the initial encounter, because at first you don't know if this person is just link-dead or afk for a smoke and should be given time to reboot or finish his cigarette before resuming the RP. Only after waiting - and waiting - and waiting - can you come to the conclusion that his player isn't anywhere near his computer and hasn't been paying attention for the past few real-life hours.

With an NPC, you can wish up and ask an IMM to animate it. With a PC you can't. The option doesn't exist. Maybe an IMM isn't around to animate an NPC, or maybe an IMM doesn't think it's necessary, but at least it's possible. Not so with a PC who isn't being PLAYED by anyone for hours and hours and hours of real time.

That's my issue with it anyway.

[Marauder Moe]

I agree with "Guest"'s post.  I believe that it's only alright to be a chronic tavern idler if you are certain that noone will ever need to speak with you or you have good reason to ignore everyone and everything around you.

[John]

My point was that a PC stuck in NPC mode for hours on end is negatively affecting the game as much as an NPC .... This is one of those times where someone else's conduct truly does not affect your play and therefore should be let be.

Well actually. Why is one type of NPC type behaviour allowed (sitting there not emoting and not interacting with anyone) whereas another type of NPC behaviour not allowed?

I can't remember WHO said it, and it's been deleted, but I remember last year I made a post in Helpful Hints that went something along the lines of "I just realised when you have to do the same repetitive task again and again and again, it's helpful to set up an alias or two for emotes to help you save time but to still add to the game" and I was jumped on quicker then anything. Several people said "if your going to use canned emotes don't bother at all."

Now I don't see how this is any different, except I was being more active (I actually had to read the screen to type out the alias's) but I saw people didn't like this sort of behaviour and I saw they had valid points so I stopped it (despite there being a few people saying "eh, let him be") and I think I've become a better player for it. Now apparently we can't do that anymore. If we think something is poor roleplay we're elitist.

Where?

I can't be bothered trying to see if a staff's opinion has been re-posted on this subject since the new board, so here is the particular post I was talking about. After re-reading it (after all, the last time I read it was well over a year ago) I see it was only Halaster's personal opinion and Zagren mildly disagreed with him

Now if I can remember so much about old posts on the GDB, why can't I remember where I put my keys an hour ago?  :roll:

[Anonymous]

Well actually. Why is one type of NPC type behaviour allowed (sitting there not emoting and not interacting with anyone) whereas another type of NPC behaviour not allowed?

I can't remember WHO said it, and it's been deleted, but I remember last year I made a post in Helpful Hints that went something along the lines of "I just realised when you have to do the same repetitive task again and again and again, it's helpful to set up an alias or two for emotes to help you save time but to still add to the game" and I was jumped on quicker then anything. Several people said "if your going to use canned emotes don't bother at all."

Who said canned emotes were not allowed?  I've never seen anything from the staff about it.

Do I like canned emotes?  No, they become so repetitive as to irritate.  Do I like it when PCs login for hours and hours without doing anything worthwhile?  No.

Will those things stop me from playing with them?  Probably.  But that's my choice.  Just like it's his or her choice to go on doing what they are doing be it canned emotes or logging in and doing nothing.

What it boils down to is I don't feel that I, you or anyone not on staff has the right to tell a player they should stop doing something that gives them enjoyment unless it is cheating or abusive.

Presumably this person logs in, works for a living and every once in a while checks in on what is going on.  I don't think their privilege to login to this game is contingent on whether or not they are entertaining you or I so let them have their fun.

Besides, just what is so damn hard about ignoring them?

[John]

Besides, just what is so damn hard about ignoring them?

Doesn't bother me none as I almost never play up north, I was just speaking of the situation in general and providing arguments on why it's not good.

[Rindan]

I don't think anyone is 'demanding' that people stop AFKing for days on end.  You can't really demand anything unless you are staff.  Pointing out that demands can't be met is pointless as I think everyone understands this.  That said, people can express their displeasure with it and say what they prefer.  I personally think that people who dislike it have a valid point.  

I find it more disruptive then an NPC because NPCs generally don't interact.  They are atmospheric and generally you can assume that it is not the same Byn dwarf in the Gaj at all times.  For the most part, nothing ever involves generic Byner #2 or generic patron #4.  PCs can be involved.  I think the example guest gave is a good example of this.  As was pointed out, unlike an NPC, a PC can't be animated.  We suspend our disbelief for a lot of things, NPCs include.  I personally prefer not to have to continue to extend it any farther then it needs to go.  If I RP with an NPC I don't RP expecting a response, so I keep all of my RP centered around having no verbal response.  When I RP with a PC, I RP expecting a response.  When I don't get when, it turns into an awkward moment where I have to decide if they are typing slowly, going to respond in a few moments, or not there.  Certainly a guy sitting in a tavern AFK can be RPed around, but it is something I would rather avoid as it almost always ends up being awkward.

I really don't think that wanting to keep an eye on the tavern is a good reason to stay AFK.  It is one thing in my mind to spend days on end there active and able to respond to the world around you, it is another to basically open up the MUD just to keep a log of a single room.  They might as well set up a ghost account so that people can just sit there and watch but not even have the potential to interact.

If you are in a role that you can't do anything in other then idle in a tavern, then you probably have found a role that is not right for you.  Plenty of people who could fall into the category of tavern idlers have managed to lead active lives despite this.  This isn't a commentary on one's RP abilities, just on how they are handling a role.  It might be best to find a role where one can be more active and let other people who can be active in the role currently being idled have that role.  I would rather see two active roles then one role that is just acting as a glorified NPC.

I don't have a problem with people being semi-AFK.  It happens.  There have been times when I have had to leave the computer and gone idle for a while to take care of pressing RL business.  It is okay to perhaps be less then attentive at times because things are simply slow.  That said, I would rather people not make it a habit of simply leaving the game on then going off to do something else for the above reasons.  There is a difference between swapping back between the MUD and a web page every few seconds and going into the other room to watch TV.  Hell, I don't even care if you go completely AFK often if you are in a private room.  The issue is when people do this in a public place.  People expect PCs to behave like PCs, and when they don't it leaves an awkward moment where you need to decide to either wait longer, or come up with an excuse for the AFK player.  This is going to happen from time to time, but it is something I would much rather see avoided.

And for clarities sake so I don't have to listen to mindless flames about my elitist RP demands, these are not demands.  This is my opinion and what I would prefer.

[Cuusardo]

If a person is just sitting there being useless, I tend to ignore them.  No skin off my back.

[Angela Christine]

So this PC and me are somewhere, and something really horrible happens. We both witness it, it's traumatic.

[snip]

After three real-life days of seeing him sitting there, there's still no response. None at all.

OMG, he's got post-traumatic stress disorder and has fallen into a catatonic state.  

Seriously, if it is a problem, and the player won't change, then deal with it IC.  In some organizations if someone goes link-dead or non-responsive on an outdoor mission a common response is to say the person is krath-struck, lead them to the safest conienient location (preferably someplace indoors and lawful like a stable, but sometimes just someplace shady if time is short) and leave them there.  We all know the person doesn't really have sun stroke and that is an OOC problem, but we deal with it IC if possible.

If a PC is causing a real IC problem (rather than just an OOC pet peeve) then you should deal with it IC.  Maybe he has narcolepsy, is being attacked by a mindbender, or has fallen into a catatonic coma.  Who knows?  Realistically, what would you do if someone was sitting at a table, apparently not moving and unable to respond for a couple days straight?  Do that.


I still prefer my auto-log out after 1 hour idle solution, because it addressess more problems than inconsiderate voluntary idling, but I can't force the staff to code that for me.  

AC

[Wintermute]

Thank you for reiterating my point, AC.

People, PC's don't leave the game world when the player logs out.  Aren't you forced to make similar excuses when someone's logged out?

Deal with it IC.

If whatever you decide to do seems harsh, well then that's just too bad for the idler.  No free lunches, remember?