Sewers should be part of the city

[Foulspawn]

Honestly, it's strange that sewers aren't part of the city. They're a man-made environment and skills that affect urban foraging and urban hiding should be in effect there.

Knowing how to hide in a forest doesn't mean you can hide in a sewer. Where as knowing how to hide in an alleyway or a crowded street should do you better. After all, what is a sewer if not a crowded, dirty alleyway for rats?

[HammerofJericho]

I agree that the sewers proper should be city as well.

[Patuk]

Yes, absolutely.

[Kavrick]

I'd prefer that they'd both count as nature and city, so both exploration classes can have fun with them.

[HammerofJericho]

Code likely won't allow that but I'd like it.

[betweenford]

What about a sewer that is simultaneously a natural cavern?

[FantasyWriter]

sewer rooms city, cavern rooms wilderness. Mixxed rooms? sucks for both.

[Lotion]

stalker/whiran touched does not need this buff

[Pariah]

I always felt that sewers should have recovery rates just like if I sit down in the street.

Also would be cool and themely if criminal types had a bonus to them, then people would actually explore them and probably map them out.  Smugglers and the such.  Right now I can exhaust a mount outdoors in a sandstorm, rest it faster to full stamina than I can in a sewer tunnel, doesn't make much sense to me.

[LindseyBalboa]

Code likely won't allow that but I'd like it.

Code allows both wilderness and city tags to be on a room.

+1 to op.

Why are the sewers outdoors? Who explores sewers- the city thief or the forest ranger?

[LidlessEye]

Agree with OP. City classes in general need an overhaul I think. At the present, it would seem a wilderness class with a city sub can perform a city type role well, while a city class with a wilderness sub is far, far more restricted.

[Brisket]

I disagree very strongly - city hide/sneak and other skills are thematically based around the presence of people and active human inhabitation.  Wilderness hide/sneak and other skills are more thematically based around moving quietly in a place where humans don't typically exist.  One of the messages you get when you're getting a city hide bonus is blending into a crowd - that's atypical in a sewer.

A sewer is much closer to a cavern/cave environment than it is a marketplace, and I believe that they're accurately coded when you take into consideration what each 'skill' is meant to represent.  Being able to look surreptitious on a crowded street full of noise and movement doesn't really translate into being able to sneak around a dark, dank sewer where no one else exists.

That said, I'd absolutely argue that you should get a city hide bonus in wilderness rooms with more than 10 or 15 people, and things like tribal camps.

[Pariah]

I think we might need to add sewer stealth to the list.  New classes incoming, Sewer Rat, Bum and Outcast.

[Kavrick]

I think we might need to add sewer stealth to the list.  New classes incoming, Sewer Rat, Bum and Outcast.

I'll finally be able to play a self-insert.

[Foulspawn]

While sewers aren't crowded places and you'd think of city sneaking as hiding in one, I think it would really help out city sneaking classes. Think of a criminal in a setting like this, where's the one place they always go to hide outside of their ghettos (read: Rynth)? The sewers. Exploring the sewers, especially the Allanaki ones, is a complete slog and not worth at all for what it's worth. Your movement costs a lot (the idea is that you trudge through sludge, I get it, but come on).

I think the criminal like should get a buff to being able to explore them better and hide in them better. Enforcer, Infiltrator, Miscreant, Pilferer and Fence all sound like the kind of folks you'd see in a sewer, rather than a Scout or a Stalker (Okay, I'll give you this one).

I also think that this will help address one of the points of contention for *not* playing in the city. Generally, being an outdoorsy class means you can explore a whole world of wonders. If you're inside, you're either going to go where your house/faction wants you to go (Bynnies, Armoids and Merchy folk come to mind) or the Rynth and Allanak if you're one of them. Giving them the sewers opens up a small world for the latter, or maybe even a point for the two to meet if you make more access points for the sewer (or open them up).

[FamousAmos]

Why are the sewers outdoors? Who explores sewers- the city thief or the forest ranger?

I can imagine moving through the slush and it being hard to breathe, being difficult for both classes. Unless someone designs special sewer garb?

[Brisket]

While sewers aren't crowded places and you'd think of city sneaking as hiding in one, I think it would really help out city sneaking classes. Think of a criminal in a setting like this, where's the one place they always go to hide outside of their ghettos (read: Rynth)? The sewers. Exploring the sewers, especially the Allanaki ones, is a complete slog and not worth at all for what it's worth. Your movement costs a lot (the idea is that you trudge through sludge, I get it, but come on).

I think the criminal like should get a buff to being able to explore them better and hide in them better. Enforcer, Infiltrator, Miscreant, Pilferer and Fence all sound like the kind of folks you'd see in a sewer, rather than a Scout or a Stalker (Okay, I'll give you this one).

I also think that this will help address one of the points of contention for *not* playing in the city. Generally, being an outdoorsy class means you can explore a whole world of wonders. If you're inside, you're either going to go where your house/faction wants you to go (Bynnies, Armoids and Merchy folk come to mind) or the Rynth and Allanak if you're one of them. Giving them the sewers opens up a small world for the latter, or maybe even a point for the two to meet if you make more access points for the sewer (or open them up).

I think I still just disagree for the reasons outlined above.  It's a weird cavern, even if manmade, your ability to blend into a crowd or lurk in a doorway isn't as applicable as someone wilderness' ability to hide behind rubble/rocks and step lightly.

You seem to want to buff it based on an ooc concern of giving city_stealth PCs more places to explore, which is fine, we're just on opposite sides here.

[creeper386]

Honestly, I bet many of the Allanak's alleys and even streets aren't much better then the sewers, and probably just as populated at times. If you can sneak through a dark alley, not sure the sewers are much different.

The point is less is this a city area or a wilderness area in my mind, and more, would city based characters use and get used to working in the sewers. I'd say yes, for the ability to move about undetected. Possibly smuggling, etc.

But I think it should be flagged for both.

[Brisket]

Honestly, I bet many of the Allanak's alleys and even streets aren't much better then the sewers, and probably just as populated at times. If you can sneak through a dark alley, not sure the sewers are much different.

The point is less is this a city area or a wilderness area in my mind, and more, would city based characters use and get used to working in the sewers. I'd say yes, for the ability to move about undetected. Possibly smuggling, etc.

But I think it should be flagged for both.

Please don't forget vnpcs and the like.  Allanak is a bustling city, and even if the street was deserted, knowing how to move quietly and safely from prying eyes across a street is still very dissimilar from moving through a sewer.  Caves and wilderness locations are the clear parallel.

[creeper386]

I'm not forgetting about VNPCs, but it's not like there is going to be a ton of foot traffic in the offal filled alley ways. And probably some streets aren't much better.

[Master Color]

I disagree very strongly - city hide/sneak and other skills are thematically based around the presence of people and active human inhabitation.  Wilderness hide/sneak and other skills are more thematically based around moving quietly in a place where humans don't typically exist.  One of the messages you get when you're getting a city hide bonus is blending into a crowd - that's atypical in a sewer.

A sewer is much closer to a cavern/cave environment than it is a marketplace, and I believe that they're accurately coded when you take into consideration what each 'skill' is meant to represent.  Being able to look surreptitious on a crowded street full of noise and movement doesn't really translate into being able to sneak around a dark, dank sewer where no one else exists.

That said, I'd absolutely argue that you should get a city hide bonus in wilderness rooms with more than 10 or 15 people, and things like tribal camps.

None of this matters. The game needs to shift towards accessibility and ease of play. It's extremely frustrating to see these poorly thought out hurdles put in front of good ideas like this.

The various tunnels, sewers, caverns etc beneath Allanak and Tuluk are perfect locations for city sneaks to expand their play space. There's no reason a sneak shouldn't be able to sneak down there and wilderness sneaks that wander in from the storm should be able to sneak through them too.

[Night Queen]

How is it making it nearly impossible for a gick to be caught making the game easier for the opposing side? It sounds like you just want to make it so an organised RPT expedition is required for even a minor incident, which isn't really workable. People've been saying on the city improvements that it might be a good idea to make the area of interaction smaller - this would be doing the opposite

[Brisket]

I disagree very strongly - city hide/sneak and other skills are thematically based around the presence of people and active human inhabitation.  Wilderness hide/sneak and other skills are more thematically based around moving quietly in a place where humans don't typically exist.  One of the messages you get when you're getting a city hide bonus is blending into a crowd - that's atypical in a sewer.

A sewer is much closer to a cavern/cave environment than it is a marketplace, and I believe that they're accurately coded when you take into consideration what each 'skill' is meant to represent.  Being able to look surreptitious on a crowded street full of noise and movement doesn't really translate into being able to sneak around a dark, dank sewer where no one else exists.

That said, I'd absolutely argue that you should get a city hide bonus in wilderness rooms with more than 10 or 15 people, and things like tribal camps.

None of this matters. The game needs to shift towards accessibility and ease of play. It's extremely frustrating to see these poorly thought out hurdles put in front of good ideas like this.

The various tunnels, sewers, caverns etc beneath Allanak and Tuluk are perfect locations for city sneaks to expand their play space. There's no reason a sneak shouldn't be able to sneak down there and wilderness sneaks that wander in from the storm should be able to sneak through them too.

We have very different ideas about what 'matters' - you seem to want a boost for your city thief characters.  I'd rather maintain the integrity of the rp experience.  Neither is wrong, but we disagree.

[LidlessEye]

How is it making it nearly impossible for a gick to be caught making the game easier for the opposing side? It sounds like you just want to make it so an organised RPT expedition is required for even a minor incident, which isn't really workable. People've been saying on the city improvements that it might be a good idea to make the area of interaction smaller - this would be doing the opposite

On the topic of Gicks, a rogue magicker should be treated like a dangerous global terrorist and not a rat in the basement. Hunting a magicker solo is supposed to be nearly impossible unless you are Chuck Norris or an assassin at the level of Agent 47. Not saying it can't be done, bit it is like soloing a Mekillot. Can it be done? Yes. Is it realistic? Maybe not. They must encourage the planning of an RPT. After all, RPTs do bring people together, even those that play in different time zones, and so are a good thing for RP.

Also, if sewers remain wilderness rooms, it is equally hard to catch a magicker with a wilderness main class, as most magick characters are anyway. What would it change with regards to magickers?

[Foulspawn]

How is it making it nearly impossible for a gick to be caught making the game easier for the opposing side? It sounds like you just want to make it so an organised RPT expedition is required for even a minor incident, which isn't really workable. People've been saying on the city improvements that it might be a good idea to make the area of interaction smaller - this would be doing the opposite

^{nice try, though}

I don't want to take them away from wilderness classes, mind you, I just think that they should be traveled more and used as smuggling tunnels as that is very themely. Opening up more of the game to more characters does the opposite of dividing the player base. They open new avenues of interaction for everyone. Sewers are extremely daunting right now and feel very foreign to any who isn't a combat character, has balls of steel or is a drovian, when in fact I feel like they should serve as a final hideout for detritus like infiltrators, miscreants and so forth.

[Night Queen]

It's an interesting idea but I can't see any way it could become like this because no one can see in the dark, and it'd be expensive to keep it lit with torches all the time, there'd need to be some kind of organizing to make that happen - unless the Guild got driven underground (which could be fun)

And even then, when it is made more comfortable, doesn't it just become another section of already-big rinth if just becomes like a cellar?

Also wouldn't it be against the interests of those who would like to hide things down there in the first place to make it a busy area?

[betweenford]

There are both natural tunnels and manmade tunnels in the sewers.

[Riev]

I tried to suggest a re-vamp of the stamina-drain in tunnels on a character trying to start up a "short distance walk" to a mutant-welcome cavern system. I had plans for how to keep things lit well, maybe even a multi-year dig to the surface to accept any passer-by, etc. Themed after simple stone-smiths and moss grebbers.

It just could not be done. The rooms would, apparently, have to be remade and inserted into the existing system.

[Pariah]

I tried to suggest a re-vamp of the stamina-drain in tunnels on a character trying to start up a "short distance walk" to a mutant-welcome cavern system. I had plans for how to keep things lit well, maybe even a multi-year dig to the surface to accept any passer-by, etc. Themed after simple stone-smiths and moss grebbers.

It just could not be done. The rooms would, apparently, have to be remade and inserted into the existing system.

I think I even tried to run into a sewer tunnel once as a D-elf and I could run across the world with one stamina drain per room, but those tunnels gave me crazy stamina loss like ten per room or something.

[Foulspawn]

I can confirm that you will tire yourself out quick as fuck no matter if you're a tall delf who can stride across the desert or Brick the 3'1" dwarf with AI endurance while trying to **walk** across the sewers.

This isn't an issue if you're a combat class and sure of yourself or if you're an old player. You know what's there, you know that whatever or whoever is going to run into you is going to have a bad time if they fuck with you while you're resting in the gunk. But imagine playing a survivalist or light crafting class, especially if this is your first time there. I go into tachycardia when I think that my movement points aren't enough for me to make it back and out of there.

[Inks]

I think they are more wilderness, I would rather not give magickers the ability to hide both in the alleys and the sewers.

The majority of that area is caves anyway, they should change the thinner tunnel parts to nohide.

I wouldn't cry if just the man made tunnel parts were switched to city hide though. But the narrow parts should be nohide. It's already hard enough to find elf gickers, and I have played many of them.

[najdorf]

I oppose both. They should be no hide/sneak rooms.
Have a look at those tunnels. There is nothing in them (except for caverns) to aid in stealth.
Only way to hide there is to scubadive into shit and slither your way like a sperm.

[Jarvis]

Wilderness wild makes sense.

The  most dedicated should be happy to float around in shit pretending to be a corpse with their mouth closed and nose poking out, or folded over a corner caked in dust staying very still.
The people of Zalanthas seem unhinged enough to figure out ways to hide in a straight tunnel  full of  rubble and sewage.

I always took city hide as careful management of corners and lines of sight aswell as crowds and "blending in", social engineering and all that  good stuff.
Whilst wilderness survival I always pictured as a desert ghillie suit scraping mud on his face and standing very still under the sand for hours