What would entice you to play more in the cities?

[papertiger]

Salarr owned archery range with a small entrance fee, and inside shitty quality training arrows etc on sale for reasonable prices.

This would be fun.

[Dresan]

My opinion might have changed over the months but don't think there is a problem with templars in particular.

Basically any sponsored role that has nothing better to do than to make a normal player's life miserable will make playing in any area difficult.

It is just templars have it easier than most other sponsored roles to fuck someone over with half an excuse so its easier to notice within cities. Additionally, over the years its felt like templars offer very little in terms of protection against the things player hate the most like petty theft and murder, making them annoyances and often fairly useless when someone skilled is really after you. 

I think that sponsored roles/clans need to have greater goals and problems so that their time and resources aren't spent on...oh lets say...trying to assassinate some indie female elven laborer in a tiny redstorm apartment. However this has not been easy to accomplish over the years, not sure what the state of that is in the current environment.

I think what further makes the problem worse is that many changes made to the game really favor classes like raider or mages more than they do crafting classes. You don't really need peraine to kill a mercantile class after all, this promotes playing classes that just survive much better outside of cities. I want to be careful with my words here because I do love many of the changes from a content perspective but at the same time i see how it would skew the game to people playing more raiders/mages.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

Here's the thing, cities don't just clear out cause no one wants to play around Templars, No, people leave the game entirely.  This is not a thing that Arm can tolerate and furthermore, the people left, well of course they're advocating status quo, as are many in this post.

You have hit the nail on the head.

I would simplify the groups of people here into roughly two groups: there are those who like the game the way it is, and there are those who do not.

Now of course, those who like the game the way it is enjoy their time here and I'd bet dollars to doughnuts they play a lot and frequent the forums often. When asked what we could do to attract more people to the cities, they go, "What do you mean? The cities are perfectly fine!"

Then there's the second group of players who... let's just say, in the best of scenarios, they still play and frequent the forums, but they prefer the wilderness and would rather avoid city politics. And then there's a massive silent majority of people who have simply left the game.

Obviously, the majority of people here presently think things are fine, as.. they are here, and active on the forums. But conversely, those who do not think things are fine could have simply left and be gone for good. Compared to all the people who once played Armageddon but have left, the amount of people who still play here today is tiny. And yet, the fact that those who think the game is fine are just about the only ones left means that their voice is the loudest.

This is what we call a survivorship bias.

If the goal of this thread is to brain storm and think of ways for the city to be more attractive, the staff here should be listening to those disenfranchised folk who bring up concerns and even offer constructive suggestions. It does no good to be listening to negative arguments and rebuttals of those who think the game is fine as it is - those who say the other players are just too soft or can't handle stress - because they're either part of the problem or complacent with it.

The people who you want to attract back to the cities cannot be forced into them, nor even forced to log in. If people on these forums keep arguing, downplaying, and belittling those who bring up valid criticism, the legitimate complaints get drowned out, the staff get the false reassurance that everything is fine, and nothing changes. And that means still hardly anyone will want to play in cities.

I don't mean offense to those who love Armageddon and still enjoy the game. But please, take the criticism it gets seriously.

[dumbstruck]

stuff

What is the point about asking what could change to do a thing if nothing is going to change?

Edit to add: Which is to say I very much agree with the points made in the quote, and +1 is redundant and pointless, so I address the question to anyone reading the original post to keep that in mind when they meet responses to the original question with basically ignoring the feedback asked for or dismissing people for having it.

[Usiku]

A couple of years ago, we had a thread aimed at gathering insights from players who moved on from the game. Quite a number returned to participate and we compiled the feedback. Can't find that spreadsheet right now, but from what I recall, Templars/City Play didn't really stand out as a deal-breaker; if it was mentioned, it was more of a side note. Sure, there might be a certain demographic that is so put off by city play that they bail and never look back, but let's remember - our game has its own flavor and style, and it's not going to be everyone's cup of tea.

I'm not brushing off the concerns raised here; we are listening, taking note and having our own discussions. I just wanted to tackle the notion that "people have left due to Templars, and hence aren't here to voice their disdain for Templars," and question whether catering to this segment of the player base should be a priority.

Personally, I am more interested in feedback from players who have moved to play out of cities rather than bailing on the whole game due to this specific issue. And when it comes to those who left the game, or newbies who didn't hang around, I'm keener on understanding reasons outside of theme dislike, like tackling the learning curve, time constraints, the grind and so on.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

A couple of years ago, we had a thread aimed at gathering insights from players who moved on from the game. Quite a number returned to participate and we compiled the feedback. Can't find that spreadsheet right now, but from what I recall, Templars/City Play didn't really stand out as a deal-breaker; if it was mentioned, it was more of a side note. Sure, there might be a certain demographic that is so put off by city play that they bail and never look back, but let's remember - our game has its own flavor and style, and it's not going to be everyone's cup of tea.

I'm not brushing off the concerns raised here; we are listening, taking note and having our own discussions. I just wanted to tackle the notion that "people have left due to Templars, and hence aren't here to voice their disdain for Templars," and question whether catering to this segment of the player base should be a priority.

Personally, I am more interested in feedback from players who have moved to play out of cities rather than bailing on the whole game due to this specific issue. And when it comes to those who left the game, or newbies who didn't hang around, I'm keener on understanding reasons outside of theme dislike, like tackling the learning curve, time constraints, the grind and so on.

That's great!

I just hope you don't have tunnel vision and are not only seeing stuff regarding Templars.

Other topics have been brought up repeatedly: in particular, a lack of things to do as compared to the wilderness, and 2) problems with theft/apartments being unsafe.

The first part is rather self-explanatory. If you have more opportunities for people to skill up in cities, more opportunities to gain wealth, people will find those activities rewarding and worth the risk of running into templars and thieves. The probability of simply bumping into another player increases a lot, and then bam, there you go, here is that player on player interaction we so crave.

The second part seems contested with anecdotal evidence, but either way I'm standing firmly by my beliefs. If you want nobles to hang out at bars and mingle with other players more often, there simply has to be better protection from thieves and assassins. If you want players in general to hang out at bars more, if you don't want them rage quitting from dying in their apartments for the umpteenth time, you have to fix the problem of apartments being death traps.

Tweaking the learning curve and grind can only do so much when players get invested into their characters, only to have it snatched away by someone who wants to make another character's life miserable for flimsy reasons.

[Windstorm]

Stealth is city invulnerability and there are no defenses in ArmageddonMUD that handle it outside of some very specific and rare roles.

It either needs to be toned down or there need to be ways to illuminate hiding locations or search a room on demand to expose those hiding in it.

[Miradus]

Stealth is city invulnerability and there are no defenses in ArmageddonMUD that handle it outside of some very specific and rare roles.

It either needs to be toned down or there need to be ways to illuminate hiding locations or search a room on demand to expose those hiding in it.

Player solvable. Create thief-hunters for hire. Infiltrators and miscreants who specialize in either guarding locations or people, or tracking down and dealing with thieves.

It's even in the helpfiles that sometimes people white hat these skillsets.

[Riev]

Stealth is city invulnerability and there are no defenses in ArmageddonMUD that handle it outside of some very specific and rare roles.

It either needs to be toned down or there need to be ways to illuminate hiding locations or search a room on demand to expose those hiding in it.

Player solvable. Create thief-hunters for hire. Infiltrators and miscreants who specialize in either guarding locations or people, or tracking down and dealing with thieves.

It's even in the helpfiles that sometimes people white hat these skillsets.

There are also items that can be used to help root out people hiding.

That said? Yes. Being hidden IS very powerful, but more skillsets get (master) scan these days.

[Doublepalli]

Let's not pretend like master scan can spot an infiltrator or miacreant.

[titansfan]

It's not 100% if they're also master level.  But it shouldn't be 1 for 1 success to attempt.

[Riev]

Let's not pretend like master scan can spot an infiltrator or miacreant.

My Miscreant used to get picked up on by a lot of people. I'd catch the "Watch" command on me all the time.

Yes, you have to kind of spam watch shadow but it certainly can catch Infils and Miscreants. Just likely not before they do "the things"

[Miradus]

Let's not pretend like master scan can spot an infiltrator or miacreant.

It absolutely can unless you used wisdom for your dump stat.

The equation is scan skill and wisdom versus hide skill and agility, I believe.

Sneaking up on a gick elf with scan who prioritized wisdom is a huge risk.

[Jimpka_Moss]

Gambling NPCs, gaming NPC's or games in general. Rotating, or new artwork. Random secret rooms.


More things to find with forage artifact that aren't A) Straight crap, B) obvious magickally connected items. NPC's living lives inside. Empty apartments being squatted in, etc. Randomized items in backpacks or containers for NPCs upon rebooting, so they can have something interesting for criminals.



A travelling wagon: It sells odd stuff from the last place it visited. You can rent a private room aboard it for X coin. When it reloads in a different city, you're in a different city, and you have to do the whole thing over again. One room only.


Not looking like the sole weirdo in the entire city that tracks people inside the walls by looking at their tracks on a incredibly trafficked road.

[Lizzie]

Maybe a whole new help file for city "unlawful" types about what constitutes twinkery, and alternatives to avoiding falling into the trap of becoming a twink.

Ideas for the file:
Don't use "sneak" EVERYWHERE from the moment you log in til the moment you log out.  Get into your character. When would he find it the most useful to him, to try sneaking? Once he's confident that he's good at it, when would it be most practical to use the skill? Example: Look north. There's a templar AND two soldiers 2 rooms away? Stop sneaking. If you get caught, they might want to know what you're about to steal, or why you're hiding from them. Return to your sneaking when you're safely past them.

If you're hiding in the Gaj and someone notices that you're there, and points you out, don't just keep hiding and pretending it didn't happen. Toss out an emote that would make sense for the scene, allow yourself to either be unhidden, or vacate the premises.

If you want to improve your listen/scan skills, don't drop your PC off in the Gaj and ignore the game for the next two hours.  There are already plenty of NPCs that do that. Your character is a player character, you're expected to actually be paying attention and able to react/respond for most of the time you're logged in. If you have other things to do offline, then log out.

Once you've become proficient with lockpicking and have good locks, don't just break into every single apartment in the building and leave the doors open. Relock some of them. Give people a reason to want to rent there in the first place. No one wants to rent in a place where the doors are always wide open. What good is breaking into a vacant apartment with nothing worth stealing in it? Pace yourself. And be more selective on which apartments you want to practice on. Try practicing on the ones you know are vacant. Then when you're good at it, you can try the rented ones, grab an item or three tops, then try again a few RL days later. By that time, you'll be able to lock back up when you leave. Great way for a TRUE sneaky type - you could probably get stinkin filthy rich and they'll never even notice that anything's missing.

...and so on. So not just "do" and "don't." But rather, offering ideas of HOW to play these types of characters, that don't involve twinking, but still allow you to improve your skills.

[Usiku]

Feel free to submit a draft. 

[Riev]

If you want to improve your listen/scan skills, don't drop your PC off in the Gaj and ignore the game for the next two hours.  There are already plenty of NPCs that do that. Your character is a player character, you're expected to actually be paying attention and able to react/respond for most of the time you're logged in. If you have other things to do offline, then log out.

Disrespectfully (nobody ever starts THAT way!), no.

There is nothing that says I can't be an NPC for an hour while I'm watching Netflix, waiting to see if someone comes by or says something worth hearing.

Listen requires people talking either at a table in the same room, or in a room adjacent to you. Unless there are more NPCs with talk (not shout) scripts than I remember, there are certain things that have to be done.

You (royal you) can't expect everyone to simultaneously "do things your character would do", while also bemoaning that players 'don't take risks'. Like saying you should be out there stirring shit up and screwing with people, while also telling them "we aren't ready to support that idea until you have more of a place in society. Check back in a couple RL months".


You want people to play more in cities? Don't tell them they can't sit in the taverns, designed to overhear and listen in on people*.


*-  That said? The next person that OOC's "AFK-ish" as soon as I enter, as if to tell me "I see you, I don't want to play with you" is getting mon disintegrated.

[Inks]

This has got super off topic. Sounds like a bunch of punks whining about sneakies when as far as I can tell that has very little to do with the actual reason sometimes the city gets quiet. It usually is how murderous are the current leader pcs.

[Windstorm]

It's also pretty idiotic that someone with a high enough hide can just... Go invisible in a tiny room with no furnishings. Like, is this guy hidden under my sleeping mat? Maybe behind a large bag? Hallways should be equally as hard to hide in, as well. It's not like crowds of people are hanging out in the halls or moving in and out of the building in a large enough crowd to warrant someone somehow remaining completely and utterly undetected.

Also I am also almost convinced that perhaps apartments should be no hide rooms (but allow sneak).

Actually this has been a recurring topic in this thread. That's from one page, mind. I'm not going to scour the whole thing.

[Riev]

This has got super off topic. Sounds like a bunch of punks whining about sneakies when as far as I can tell that has very little to do with the actual reason sometimes the city gets quiet. It usually is how murderous are the current leader pcs.

You can have your opinion. You can't call people who voice concerns "a bunch of punks whining" because you disagree wit their thoughts on why the cities are quiet.

"as far as you can tell" doesn't mean you're spitting truths. Not agreeing with what people say doesn't mean its off topic, and its not your call to make. Sit down.

[wizturbo]

Stealth is definitely super overpowered but there's no easy fixes.  The reason this is a problem for cities, is that you literally cannot go anywhere without fear that someone is invisible in the room with you listening or holding a knife waiting to kill you.  This is super unrealistic.  Cities are...shelter...and if that shelter is more dangerous than the world outside it, it's no surprise people don't want to linger there.

In the past, 'stealth' wasn't very meta because you usually couldn't be good at stealth AND be good at combat.  That isn't true anymore.  The new classes and even subclasses make this possible now,  you can be incredibly skilled in combat relative to average characters and be completely undetectable without magick. This is especially true for some races.

Having the 'search' skill be able to give an active sweep for anyone hidden in the room you're in would be a good solution in my opinion.  Tuning matters here though.   Master Search should have a high chance of uncovering someone regardless of their skill level, which would be different than the passive 'scan' skill which doesn't seem to uncover maxxed hiders often.

[Ygg]

Stealth is definitely super overpowered but there's no easy fixes.  The reason this is a problem for cities, is that you literally cannot go anywhere without fear that someone is invisible in the room with you listening or holding a knife waiting to kill you.

This was always the case even when cities were booming and the taverns always full. I agree stealth is highly imperfection, but it has nothing to do with the abysmally low player count in cities.

[Classclown]

I think it should be impossible to hide in apartments, especially one room ones. Even if someone's under the bed or in the closet, it would be clear someone's there. "Dude I can see you."
It's like that Geico undercover agent in the trash can commercial.

[Synthesis]

The problem with no-hide rooms is always that your CHARACTER would know that it's impossible to hide there, but there's never a clear warning for the PLAYER that it's impossible to hide there prior to attempting it and being seen.

So people do weird metagame stuff such as "always passing through that one room" to make sure nobody is shadowing them.

[digitaleak]

The problem with no-hide rooms is always that your CHARACTER would know that it's impossible to hide there, but there's never a clear warning for the PLAYER that it's impossible to hide there prior to attempting it and being seen.

So people do weird metagame stuff such as "always passing through that one room" to make sure nobody is shadowing them.

To be fair, people do that in real life too. I would much sooner walk through a well lit space with no hiding places if I was walking home alone than one that's dark, isolated, and filled with nooks and crannies for people to be hiding in.