What Makes a "Good" Templar?

[Fragmented]

1) Badskeelz had made a comment in another thread about how what makes a good templar should be a whole other topic.

2) When looking over the forum, I often see a lot of hate for Templars and comments about how they're the reason the Cities are ghost towns a lot.

So given that there is currently (at the time of this post) a Templar role call open, I thought this was the perfect time for a thread like this. Maybe it's been discussed before, but a quick search for "good templar" didn't turn up anything recent so: Discuss!

I'll go first, since I started the thread. By the way, these are just my thoughts, not accusations or any sort of vaguebooking. I think a "good" templar should encompass the following:

a) Maintain a social distance IC from other PC's, to retain the feel of someone in this position. I don't mean lack of participation or interaction but instead, type of interaction. Don't get drunk and
    play cards in the bar with the commoners (or even Nobles).
b) Strive to find the balance between IC throwing their weight around, and OOC not being a crushing force to suck the fun from everyone else.
         - As an example, avoid vast swings from one side to the other - either overwhelming force of presence (even if this probably is more correct from an IC standpoint), or ridiculous amounts
           of toleration that seems (even if untrue) a blatant OOC desire to be "liked".
c) Have the punishment fit the crime, always. If someone fails to show appropriate social behavior, tax them somehow to show them the error of their ways. Not straight to the torture chamber.
         - This "tax" should be something that may sting a little, but is not devastating. Take a handful of coins, maybe a pretty weapon. But not THE pretty weapon, or ALL the coins.
         - Conversely, if someone dares through behavior the Templar to execute/disappear them, respond accordingly but strictly in character and damn the possible OOC hate to follow.
d) Always be willing to accept any reasonable bribe, to give people an "out", except for the most egregious of offenses.
e) Be consistent. This doesn't mean treat everyone the same - that's terrible. But be consistent. If you have favorites for a specific reason attained through RP, these levers should be pullable by
    most PC's if pulled in the same way, by the same type.
f) Strive to be the Templar that people may dread to see IC, but may be excited to see OOC.

Anyway, just my 2 'sid.

What do you all think would make a good Templar?

[Veselka]

Nice. Agreeable points.

I think good Templars stick to their guns, their personality, and encourage/create plots rather than squash them. Catch a thief? Make it an informant. Informant renegs on your deal? Nice. Time to take out the torture devices.

I'm a fan of giving people rope to hang themselves with. It's always nice to have enemies and nemesis out there, and Templars are a great source of conflict.

I like Templars playing nice with one another, and I like when Templars are at each other's throats (subtly or not so subtly).

I think a great Templar can define an era of the game. A not so great Templar just tends to fade into the background. The same can be said of Byn Sergeants.

More than anything, I think also asking for Staff input/guidance is really helpful for Templars. Are you stepping out of line? Can you do things better? Ask for help. You don't always have to do all the heavy lifting on your own, even when you are the only Templar around.

[Windstorm]

I kind of dread this sort of thread honestly, not that I find the points made wrong, but because gosh, playing a templar seems like such a difficult and demanding thing to do with so much weight on you from the first minute and so many negative past experiences having to weigh on your every action and how people will think of you. I'm nerve-wracked just thinking about it.

The current templars did not kill your PC 7 years ago. They're probably trying their very best to play a PC with a lot of power who doesn't actually want to shit on everyone's fun. Please remember that.

If ever I personally took a role call like that I would strive to focus on my characterization and playing that character absolutely the way I meant to portray them above any expectations the community had. If my templar drank and played cards with commoners, then frankly, fuck it, you shouldn't have shit to say about it. They're protagonists and antagonists for the entire game, leading, probably under constant staff and player scrutiny, and they don't need to be judged any more than they already are being.

Just my opinion.

[Case]

I think this thread has been great so far!

If I had to contribute:

1. Don't be every scene. Don't steal every scene, don't try to make it all about you. To me, a Templar, while being a terrifying and important leader, is a servant of sorts to the player community. Have respect for other players. Let them shine. Help them shine.

2. Be scary and tough IC, not needy and try hard OOC. It's very easy to power trip as a Templar, especially when starting out. The scariest people don't have to show how scary they are very often.

3. Be a little bumbling. Make room for mistakes. Be vulnerable. You're not perfect. Don't hunt down every rogue with cruel efficiency. Turn blind eyes. Trust sometimes when you know you OOCly shouldn't. Players will trust a Templar more if you make it very clear you're there for them as a player, not there to fuck with them.

4. The things you've meant to police? Those things are often fun. The status quo and the rules aren't always very fun. Break some rules, now and then. Maybe be a little too friendly with a commoner. Lie to your bosses. Maneuver around your fellow Templars. Take risks. Gamble. Don't be an embarrassment to the Templarate, but these are not roles where you get rewarded for always towing the line.

[Veselka]

While they are certainly judged by the playerbase as a whole, I can say from personal experience that when I play a Templar I self-evaluate and scrutinize myself probably way more than other people do.

I think it's rare to encounter a Templar that is so unaware of themselves that they are surprised when Staff taps them on the shoulder and is like 'hey...so lets talk...'

[Gunnerblaster]

While I can't say definitively what makes a "good" Templar, some of the best that I've had the pleasure of interacting with have given me both, "Oh, I'd die for this person" and "This person fucking terrifies me" in equal measures. To me, Templars are unknowable simply because - Compared to your average commoner - They're so far beyond their level that they can't even be considered mortal. Having interacted with the Templar, through different PC's, I've seen them go from loyalty-inspiring war chiefs - To downright terrifying despots lording over those weaker than them.

[Tuannon]

As a commoner when dealing with nobles it's very easy to say XYZ just killed me for no reason without knowing about a note that Lady Farquad handing to Lord Braies in the Arboretum and other behind the scenes motivations.

There is also a level of arrogance some people express when dealing with highborn that makes me scratch my head, but I don't know the reasons for it as I don't have the ability to read their bio or mind so I need to keep this in mind when dealing with them. It's understandable to me that you get slapped on the wrist after ignoring directions a number of times from an Arm Corporal and then the templar coming to deal with it, Amos Grebstein who knows a cashed up bogan in Salarr.

Both times I have been templared involved getting betrayed and not learning about it until the 11th hour or having to go through with getting caught and taking the fall so that the company gets ahead out of it.

[valeria]

I think this thread has been great so far!

If I had to contribute:

1. Don't be every scene. Don't steal every scene, don't try to make it all about you. To me, a Templar, while being a terrifying and important leader, is a servant of sorts to the player community. Have respect for other players. Let them shine. Help them shine.

2. Be scary and tough IC, not needy and try hard OOC. It's very easy to power trip as a Templar, especially when starting out. The scariest people don't have to show how scary they are very often.

3. Be a little bumbling. Make room for mistakes. Be vulnerable. You're not perfect. Don't hunt down every rogue with cruel efficiency. Turn blind eyes. Trust sometimes when you know you OOCly shouldn't. Players will trust a Templar more if you make it very clear you're there for them as a player, not there to fuck with them.

4. The things you've meant to police? Those things are often fun. The status quo and the rules aren't always very fun. Break some rules, now and then. Maybe be a little too friendly with a commoner. Lie to your bosses. Maneuver around your fellow Templars. Take risks. Gamble. Don't be an embarrassment to the Templarate, but these are not roles where you get rewarded for always towing the line.

All of this, but especially 2 and 3. I would add to play your character, not the role. If you're playing a templar, you've probably accumulated some OOC knowledge about how things work and how to meta over your time as a player. The fun templars set that aside and fuck up from time to time, the unfun ones use that as an advantage to go on power trips.

Plus, by not mercilessly hunting down and killing every antagonist, you give your law enforcement arm something to do (really, they should be dealing with those petty thieves, not you), and you leave room for conflict in the game. Any story stagnates without conflict. Just players in general should be aiming for the story to flourish, even if that's to the detriment of their character. Most people are here for the stories in some way, shape, or form.

[Halaster]

Give other PC's room to do their thing without you interfering.  You don't need to be involved in every plot, every dispute.  Ask yourself continually "am I being smothering?"

[Dune Bunny]

Played my first Templar a couple of years back, and I feel as if she was seen mostly in a positive light by a majority of her interactions (outside of the Highborne sphere XD). A few tips as to how I would interact:

1. I built her persona/motivations in advance, but used it more as a framework, and not an unwavering document. Change could absolutely happen if her dealings suggested it as a course that would benefit things.

2. Understanding that I was the bad guy to others on many occasions, from both an IC and OOC standpoint. Templars are a great scapegoat for player frustrations. I believe a lot of people alter this negative feel down the line, when the bad thing happening to them is done well by the Templar(s) involved, especially so if they learn the truth of a situation.

3. Focusing on having fun, first and foremost. Yes, I was there to help drive plot, give pcs things to do, etc. And I did my best at that, but I noticed that my less memorable moments came when all the drama would pile up and I quit having fun with the role. Returning to making it fun for me seemed to make me a better templar towards other players.

4. Involving PCs is not always major/world-spanning plot. Give them something to do that keeps them engaged even a bit, and players will thank you for it. One example I have, is a certain pc was discussing telling jokes - so my Templar demanded a joke (that had better be funny!). Joke landed, and she loved it, so she demanded a weekly joke from the pc. Forgot all about it a few weeks later, only for said pc to happily come around every week with a new joke. A silly example, I know, but it felt as if that player was thankful. (also fit the theme of my templar, so don't judge me. =P )

5. Be a little blind. It was easy at the start to see everything other pcs might be doing wrong. One could stay busy all day long chopping off hands and throwing spice dealers off the walls. I thankfully only had to kill a very minimal amount of pcs in my time (and I'm pretty sure one was Suicide by Templar XD), as I learned quickly that working with some of the shady types over just trying to stomp on them made everyone's time online a lot more fun. They got to do their thing, and I wasn't stressed out by constant cat and mouse chases. (The bribes were nice too, instead of getting indignant about the gall to try and bribe her. XD)

6. This one's a little redundant with the above points, but play your character at all times. And I would dare say that when you app a templar, create one that's made for interaction, and not for being an absolute terror. Sure, those templars exist - but you quickly find yourself alienated when word gets around that you're on of 'those' dudes. I personally say to let the superdicks be NPC templars. I mean, if you're doing all the murdering at random over someone having 6 pieces of bone in a bad instead of 13, you're stopping Halaster from having a merry time during RPTs! 

Anyways, just a personal touch on my experience to go with the also great above postings. Hopefully it makes sense, and might help future templars out even a little bit!

[Veselka]

Also recommend not being on Discord often while playing a leadership role/Templar. There can be a lot of vague booking and toxicity there that is discouraging. Recommend just playing the game and your role as best as you can.

[WarriorPoet]

Abuse your IC power. Be sparing with your OOC power.

[Bebop]

I view templars as kind of a proxy extension of staff. They're there to guide, start plots, be a bit of a menace, start conflict and engage others around them.

1) Delegate.  Find other PCs.  Learn their motivations, and help them get towards their goals through a series of obstacles.  Don't do everything you're self.  Set tasks out for others around you.  On the flip side, be mindful that you are there to facilitate game play and don't make things overly easy unless it's with clear IC intention.

2) Be comfortable with being the bad guy.  Templars are typically corrupt, out for themselves and/or their ministry or order.  Maybe they hold some bias against or in favor of the noble family they came from.  Maybe an elf killed their mom.  Maybe a Kadian stole their sweet roll.  Use that favoritism or lack of good grace.  You will likely be good friends with some PCs and the absolute villain to others.  Playing a Templar and making everything easy for everyone inspires a lack of conflict, intrigue and plot which you are there to facilitate.

3) Play a character.  One that has hopes, dreams, likes, dislikes, romantic interests, inner conflict.  If you just look at yourself as a plot device for others,  you won't have much fun. Let the character's personality and motivations drive them.

4) Make your kills count.  A Templar can kill others pretty easily.  Your job isn't to kill everyone for every minor infraction.  When it does happen it should be for good reason, and used as an effective piece to further a plot or make a statement.  Would an VNPC templar kill a VNPC elf for one pickpocket attempt?  Maybe.  But PC playability is another matter entirely.

5) Make friends.  Because the nature of a Templar is enforcing culture norms or laws, that's going to often time involve doing "mean" things like interrogations, executions, etc.  It's important to have some friends that will ground your character and differentiate you from an absolute tyrant.

6) Expect it to be hard.  Being a Templar often involves making executive decisions for others that tow the line between setting thematic challenges while making sure it's not so hard that characters are disheartened entirely.  Be prepared to be the villain to some characters.  Be prepared to be misunderstood, gossiped about and so forth.  Staff can't make all of the decisions for you, and they're not always around to chime in.  As a Templar there's literally no one hire to report to than staff, so expect to look at things collaboratively, have some of your ideas denied etc.

7) Leave your OOC bias at the door and accept you have an OOC responsibility to the players.  Don't like someone OOC and find out they're playing someone close to you?  Clean slate.  People spreading rumors OOC as well as IC.  Overlook it.  As Veselka said, the less interaction you do OOC when playing this role, likely the better.  While you should play your character and have fun, you also have to keep in mind that in sponsored roles you are their to facilitate storylines for your other players.

As Ves said, playing a templar can define a certain point in game, but it can definitely be challenging.  Overall, a good templar plays a compelling character, while keeping in mind the impact they're having on the general atmosphere of the game as well as bear an OOC responsibility.

[Veselka]

Another thing to add -- Because it's also important to learn from your mistakes. So here are some mistakes I made while a Templar, and what I learned from them.

-People will put pressure on you for things to happen quickly. Above all, you may put that pressure on yourself, because things can take so long otherwise via Requests, waiting on other PC's requests to be resolved, and so on. As well, this might translate towards pressure on GMH for filling your order -- Don't do that. They have a stressful enough job OOC and IC -- Your fancy stuff will be ready when it's ready. Find another Plot Device to push.

It's very easy to translate this rush/urgency for alacrity onto your underlings, and onto people you interact with. For example, a Sorcerer attacks a caravan! You decide to check who's around and immediately rush into pursuing the Sorcerer! This may be totally IC for your Templar to do. But it may be just as IC for them to wait to confer with their superiors. Or to wait for Soandso and Soandso to show up first. I think as a Templar you feel at times you have to react QUICKLY or else the opportunity will escape you. That may be true, but it is also wise to include Staff in what is going on, and if they aren't around via Wish, it may be best to wait. I say that from experience.

-Take the Virtual World into account. Without going into too much detail, on a Templar I played, they were nearly killed by a member of an organization. So they stormed over to their camp and wished up that they were 'going to annihilate everyone'. Cool -- Except there was no response from Staff, because Staff wasn't around at the time. I went through with it anyways, and being the boss that they were, the Templar had no trouble handily defeating every NPC in the camp, and RP'd setting it on fire.

Don't do that. Wait for Staff to be around to either help or hinder you. You aren't a Staffer, so you shouldn't be animating the world to that extreme (killing an entire camp of NPCs while not taking the vNPCs into account, lighting buildings/tents on fire without the go ahead of the virtual world AKA Staff). It will get you into hot water, and understandably so.

As Staff pointed out to me -- How would you feel if the tables were reversed? What if that camp of people just decided to blow up one of your City State's buildings while you were logged off, and no Staff were around, and Staff said 'Looks Fine'. You'd be pissed, and understandably so.

Long Story Short -- Look at it from the other point of view. Try to not put Staff into a tight corner where they have to accept what you did without discussing it first. Templars are vested with responsibility for that reason -- Staff expects you to not take it to the extreme without their permission and agency in the decision making process.

[Master Color]

Don't play someone else's assassin. The most annoying templars are the ones that will kill a commoner because someone else payed them to.

Actually that's the second most. The most annoying templar is the one you want to join and you literally give them ALL YOUR COINS AND AND STUFF and they kill you anyways because lol.

Extortion and exile are tools that basically never get used.

[Tuannon]

Don't play someone else's assassin. The most annoying templars are the ones that will kill a commoner because someone else payed them to.

Actually that's the second most. The most annoying templar is the one you want to join and you literally give them ALL YOUR COINS AND AND STUFF and they kill you anyways because lol.

Extortion and exile are tools that basically never get used.

I'm not saying this doesn't happen, because I know it does.

But the only reason this should be happening is because it benefits the templar to be rid of you. Once you are dead they can just 'seize all your portable assets' anyway, so it's kind of pointless.

Exile is great though, strip down to a basic cloak, roughspun pants and shoes. One skin of water and one piece of food and off you trot, don't come back.

[Agent_137]

I don't know that anything will make a good templar.

Play your character well? You're gonna be PKing because it's convenient and holding plots close because you don't want to lose. Even if you give yourself some faults, ICly your templar would still want to be successful.

Be considerate of your impact on other players plots, plans, and investment? Find every excuse you can not to PK? Now you're letting OOC majorly drive your IC decisions.

So until we can fix the conundrum with the role itself, yeah I'd say always take a bribe no matter the rule broken, never be somebody else's assassin, and do find every excuse you can to not PK.

[Veselka]

I don't know that anything will make a good templar.

Play your character well? You're gonna be PKing because it's convenient and holding plots close because you don't want to lose. Even if you give yourself some faults, ICly your templar would still want to be successful.

PKing when it makes IC sense to do so is perfectly reasonable and fine, whether it's a ranger out in the wastes, or a Templar in their City State. I don't think Templars necessarily mind 'losing' or that being successful means eliminating any and all obstacles by fatal means. My last Templar had a kill count of like...2? Maybe 3. And several of my nemesis at the time had body counts of easily 10-15.

Be considerate of your impact on other players plots, plans, and investment? Find every excuse you can not to PK? Now you're letting OOC majorly drive your IC decisions.

Not necessarily. Being measured and reasonable is a quality many Templars have. Others have incredibly short tempers, or they are unpredictable. They also just have red lines that they typically advertise, and if you cross them, it's at your own risk. I don't think it is OOC driving IC decisions to play a Templar that takes situations as they come, and decides most of the time to avoid jumping to murder unless they have to. After all, dead people can't (usually) do you favors.

So until we can fix the conundrum with the role itself, yeah I'd say always take a bribe no matter the rule broken, never be somebody else's assassin, and do find every excuse you can to not PK.

While I know there are examples of Templars acting as 'someone else's assassin', Templars really don't have the highest of 'KILL COUNTS' compared to, say, Desert Elves, wilderness PCs, Red Stormers, and so on. They can, and have, been pretty strict and quick to send people to the Arena. I think it would be against the theme of the game if templars were too lenient.

While it's a difficult equation to balance, I think there's a reason there are only a handful of Templars that stand out in memory as the GOATs. Some of it is right time right place. Some of it is the underlings that define that Templar, or having a great military beneath them, or the Council of Allanaki Mages, and so on. It is usually not just the Templar that defines the great era, but those around them as well.

[Master Color]

But the only reason this should be happening is because it benefits the templar to be rid of you. Once you are dead they can just 'seize all your portable assets' anyway, so it's kind of pointless.

Usually "it benefits me" is so poorly thought out or the advantage is so negligible that it doesn't matter.

[Mellifera]

I've played a couple templars over the years (though I'm not any longer and likely never will again), and I agree with a lot of these points, but I think it's always worth considering that, in my opinion, at least in the eras that I played them, templars were/are one of the toughest, most OOCly demanding roles in the game. You get a lot of power, more than any other role as well, but that isn't given freely. You're put under immense scrutiny by staff and players, you have literally no end to people who will always want to kill you at the first chance they get, no exceptions, and the workload, even if you focus entirely on delegation, is still incomparably immense, at least if you're really sinking your teeth into the position. You are always expected to be a perfect, shining example of a player, so every emote, every action, and every tiny mistake is scrutinized, and someone will remember it and hold it over you for years. When you have to devote hours to the role every day, and often end up doing that for years of your actual life, frequently when you're tired or overworked, there are bound to be occasional fuck ups, and we need to be a little forgiving of that.

Personally I think what makes you a 'good' templar is pretty in line with what most people are saying. Prioritise roleplay over success, give people ways to free themselves or work with you rather than killing them, consider the virtual world, delegate, try to stay in character, be a plot driver over a one man powerhouse murder monster, etc.

It's very easy to say these things, though, and much harder to always apply them without fail. I don't want to say too much about how templar progression functions, in case that's preferred to be kept secret by staff, but at the time things were a little conflicted, and they likely still are. On one hand staff would say that you should be keeping people alive when you can and let plots flourish, which I certainly agree with, but on the other hand, the players who could kill the right people or shut down the right things could bring hard evidence to their superiors that they Did A Thing and were an effective templar, and often seemed to progress because of that. The things that make you a 'good' templar to the players didn't didn't often make you a 'good' templar to your superiors. There were no rewards for being a deep and interesting character or sparing people, there were rewards for being a cold hearted ruthless cut-throat bitch. To be clear, I do not blame staff for this, progression for templars is a heavily IC matter and this attitude makes sense in the IC world, and staff were always very accommodating and understanding of my personal goals with my character, but if you wanted to actually move up the chain you had to be mean, and I think that's why we see the oldest and most powerful templars being feared OOCly as well as ICly, and often avoided and resented.

Additionally, I think it's sometimes on players interacting with templars to actually give them a chance to roleplay characters that you could potentially enjoy playing with, even if you're directly opposed IC. I often had people who would decide the second they met me that they would not engage in any way, especially if they were in a situation that wasn't ideal for them, like an interrogation. Interrogations were often bad, and I had people chew me out in ways that seemed very OOC, like non-thematic insults and sentences that made zero sense ICly but seemed like they were directly addressing me as a player. People also rarely bothered 'playing along' and would often shut down immediately, or even demand to be killed outright, even if that wasn't the plan initially. I think it's worth mentioning that though sometimes people die in the cells, interrogation is often the more challenging, riskier alternative to PKing outright that's done to give characters who would have been taken down regardless a chance for either a final scene or the opportunity to live, even when that opportunity puts the templar in question at much higher a chance of being the victim of revenge or betrayal. If you're brought to a cell, it's likely that templar trying to choose roleplay and interaction over a guaranteed 'win' and their own advancement.

I understand people have had bad interactions with templars in the past, and that it's frustrating to not get what you want or to 'win', and that sometimes the reason why you've even gotten into that situation with a templar in the first place can be confusing or unknown to you, but it is also other players responsibilities to open themselves up to roleplay and interaction as much as it is the templars responsibility to engage in it.

That said, I agree that a Templar needs to make their PK's and captures count. A lot of the time you really can let people go with a warning or a slap on the wrist, or control and direct them in other ways. It's also worth considering though that like everyone templars can be tricked, and lied to, and can make mistakes, no matter how thorough they are, and if you found yourself killed or captured by a templar in a way that seemed completely uncalled for, they might have thought there was a very solid reason to do so.

And, all that said, Templars don't tend to have remotely comparable kill counts to some other kinds of players, and once again the criticism frequently placed on who they choose to kill is another example of how Templars are scrutinized far more harshly than any other role. It makes sense they're scrutinized like this, they have more potential for power than any other role and they command crimcode, but it's still worth considering.

[Inks]

Just don't be the sort of templar that tries to win the entire game and act on every bit of knowledge. The city was busy under Sahtuk because he didn't use his incredible network to do everything. And the other templar was brillant as well because he was rping as a foppish, half-incompetant Fale. That was a time of amazing templars.

Basically if you are super keen on executing everyone and dominating the PCs of your city, the city empties out pretty fast as people find other areas to play in. Templars are the MOST important role for the health of playing in one city or another. You don't have to be 100% competant and efficient.

You need to look at yourself as 50% flavour, and 50% mover and shaker. Then new PCs flock to the city and ironically you end up more powerful short term AND long term than a murderous twinky templar.

Even the majority of enemies will respect a well played templar more and not do everything in their power to bring them down, as opposed to the one who blasts any percieved threat and constantly hires assassins to eliminate even slightly annoying enemies. As a player of antagonist type pcs I guarantee the more shitty and unfair you are as a templar the stronger the indy, raider and antagonist population becomes.

[ShaiHulud]

Good stuff said here, for many roles aside templar. I think it is a challenging role but folks might have a better idea and less intimidated to do one, with this advice.

[adri]

Additionally, I think it's sometimes on players interacting with templars to actually give them a chance to roleplay characters that you could potentially enjoy playing with, even if you're directly opposed IC. I often had people who would decide the second they met me that they would not engage in any way, especially if they were in a situation that wasn't ideal for them, like an interrogation. Interrogations were often bad, and I had people chew me out in ways that seemed very OOC, like non-thematic insults and sentences that made zero sense ICly but seemed like they were directly addressing me as a player. People also rarely bothered 'playing along' and would often shut down immediately, or even demand to be killed outright, even if that wasn't the plan initially. I think it's worth mentioning that though sometimes people die in the cells, interrogation is often the more challenging, riskier alternative to PKing outright that's done to give characters who would have been taken down regardless a chance for either a final scene or the opportunity to live, even when that opportunity puts the templar in question at much higher a chance of being the victim of revenge or betrayal. If you're brought to a cell, it's likely that templar trying to choose roleplay and interaction over a guaranteed 'win' and their own advancement.

I understand people have had bad interactions with templars in the past, and that it's frustrating to not get what you want or to 'win', and that sometimes the reason why you've even gotten into that situation with a templar in the first place can be confusing or unknown to you, but it is also other players responsibilities to open themselves up to roleplay and interaction as much as it is the templars responsibility to engage in it.

I love this bit here. A Templar can't be good if we as players immediately judge them without bothering to give them a chance. The role is an important one and a difficult one (like all leadership roles) - and remember, we're all here for the same reason. Templar players want interaction, too.. and it doesn't always have to be negative! Be a patriot, support Lord Doesn'twannamurderyouyet Fale.

On the flip side of the coin, I've always enjoyed Templars showing off their CHARACTERS even in a private setting. I remember one of my first Gemmed once being pulled aside by a Templar who (in his dour, condescending way) helped me understand a little bit of lore so that I could better play my role. Just so happened he had the sort of knowledge my character was after. If I wanted more from him? Well, he had a job for me. Just a small example. I also think Halaster's "Am I being smothering?" bit is really key. Throwing someone in a cell over minor crimes isn't fun for the other player. Maybe way the Arm/Legion Sergeant and have them deal with them. Maybe give them a chance to bribe, then use that foundation to create a lasting, meaningful relationship.

Just my two cents. I've never even played one because the idea of being publically criticized by the playerbase is super stressful to me. I think our entertainment is our own responsibility but at the end of the day it's cooperative storytelling. Consider that you don't know everything and that behind the curtain, that templar might just be a really amazing player just trying to do their best. Also, Templars, remember that the punishment should fit (or be much less than) most crimes. Create more plots than you end!

[Agent_137]

While I know there are examples of Templars acting as 'someone else's assassin', Templars really don't have the highest of 'KILL COUNTS' compared to, say, Desert Elves, wilderness PCs, Red Stormers, and so on. They can, and have, been pretty strict and quick to send people to the Arena. I think it would be against the theme of the game if templars were too lenient.

No, no, that's what's different. All those others you mentioned had to survive the desert themselves to be able to kill. They didn't win a role application, they weren't gifted with crim code powers, they can't force all city-bound PCs to interact with them. Templars should not be acting like any other player in a role. They should explicitly avoid PK unless the to-be-killed is opting in by their actions and forcing their hand. Screw the theme. It's bad here and a hold over from Dark Sun, not what's actually good for the game. Or stop having 2 templars for each city all the time and move it to a rarer role, or even staff only.

[Veselka]

While I know there are examples of Templars acting as 'someone else's assassin', Templars really don't have the highest of 'KILL COUNTS' compared to, say, Desert Elves, wilderness PCs, Red Stormers, and so on. They can, and have, been pretty strict and quick to send people to the Arena. I think it would be against the theme of the game if templars were too lenient.

No, no, that's what's different. All those others you mentioned had to survive the desert themselves to be able to kill. They didn't win a role application, they weren't gifted with crim code powers, they can't force all city-bound PCs to interact with them. Templars should not be acting like any other player in a role. They should explicitly avoid PK unless the to-be-killed is opting in by their actions and forcing their hand. Screw the theme. It's bad here and a hold over from Dark Sun, not what's actually good for the game. Or stop having 2 templars for each city all the time and move it to a rarer role, or even staff only.

I don't disagree -- Mostly because Templars are then expected to go toe-to-toe with those kinds of threats -- Sorcerers, Raiders in the Wilds, etc. But they don't have the same degree of training, and likely shouldn't have the same degree of training. And those threats know that -- They know they outmatch a Templar. So you have things like Sorcerers declaring war on a City State, which is just silly most of the time.

Anyways -- I do think that Templars shouldn't be relying on kill-box scenarios like jailing someone to kill them when they otherwise wouldn't be able to match them etc. But at the same time...It's not black and white. It's the same Catch 22 argument about 'should you not run from a raider in the wilds and give the benefit of the doubt.'

In my experience -- While playing a Templar I would sometimes give every out possible, and a character would almost beg to be tortured and killed. So at a certain point...You gotta do what you gotta do. But it should absolutely not be Step 1 to your encounters with people that step on your toes or do things a little differently than you like.

I don't disagree with your postulation that Templars should perhaps be played by Staff most of the time, particularly in animating against those kinds of threats, so that Templars can fulfill a greater purpose -- That of facilitation and slow-burn antagonism. But at the same time...I dunno. I don't see Templars as being as big a problem as some people, but I also anecdotally haven't run afoul of them on most of the PCs i've played. And those that did, it was great interactions for the most part. Those that weren't, I filed player complaints about that were more or less heard and acted on.

[Pariah]

I can't speak from experience because I've never played one, but I can make some observations of playing adjacent to them quite a bit.

The ones I enjoyed to be around were the ones that actually did things.  There was a fellow named Samos or Samus FOREVER ago, who would let you bribe him, he would give special favors to people he liked, he would hunt down folks and kill them by himself without ordering guards to do it.  He is still the best I've ever witnessed play a templar.

Now, unless there is specific "Don't do that." or "Play in this lane" rules to Templars, I see them normally too "tavern sitty" for my liking most of the time.  Very reactionary instead of proactive.  That's not a dig on anyone because again I don't know how tight the reins are on them.  But if it's similar to other sponsors roles where they give you a lot of rope to either hang yourself or climb a cliff to greatness I feel like many of them might be erring on the side of caution versus balls to the wall play.

It's hard to give actual concrete feedback without knowing those metrics or having played one, so I guess that's just me looking from the outside in.

I would wager that if I played a templar, I'd probably be killed or stored rather quickly if I was left to my own devices too far, but I'd probably have a hell of a time before then.  But I've always been more of a beg forgiveness than ask permission type fellow.

[Aruven]

The pros got this covered.

I simply wanted to add; don't forget your templar is also a human being. Likely. Lean into that a bit.

[FantasyWriter]

don't forget your templar is also a human being. Likely. Lean into that a bit.

This makes me want to app a human-passing breed templar who's noble mother had an affair with an elf.

[creeper386]

I think the best templars are the ones that rarely get involved with commoner affairs. If something comes up, use the AOD to handle it. Certainly if someone is causing so much problems that you HAVE to get involved it should be a big deal. But most things I don't think should involve Templar.

I *think* this has been pretty consistant lately in that regard, but I also only see a little segment of whats going on. So who knows.

[Tuannon]

You can be involved in commoner affairs, just pick and chose which ones you have critical gainsay over.

If the Militia Corporal has tried to resolve the situation and failed, and the templar is required to step in that is fine, so long as the Corporal has been tried first.

[Veselka]

I think it's less 'Get Involved in Commoner Affairs' and more 'Involve Themselves in Commoner Affairs'.

This also means that non-Templar PCs shouldn't try to involve a Templar unless they feel like they must. Same with Noble PCs.

Often a Templar is getting involved because someone asked them to, and not because they wanted to in the first place. And just like any authority figure coming in halfway through the movie and asked to give a review, they're going to be under-informed and pissed they're there in the first place.

At least, in my experience in playing a Templar, that's how it often played out. My Templar would not want to involve themselves, someone else would entice them to become involved, and then a Templar is involved. When the ball was in my court, I would empower others to deal with 99% of issues that didn't concern me directly.

[valeria]

I think this was very nicely put, in the cities thread:

Good templars are already reporting up to the moment of PK, wishing up prior to PK and reporting after PK.

[Lotion]

a dead one

[Kialae]

Leader 1: I think my clan's growth is more important than your personal enjoyment

Leader 2: I think that your enjoyment of the game is the most important thing, within reason

[HammerofJericho]

So if a leader says: Please stick to x area and don't go across the Known. That's acceptable?

I think players like freedom but then compassion they're not involved in deeper plots. You only get both if you're super lucky because most deeper plots require trust to be included.

[The Lonely Hunter]

Just don't be the sort of templar that tries to win the entire game and act on every bit of knowledge. The city was busy under Sahtuk because he didn't use his incredible network to do everything. And the other templar was brillant as well because he was rping as a foppish, half-incompetant Fale. That was a time of amazing templars.

Basically if you are super keen on executing everyone and dominating the PCs of your city, the city empties out pretty fast as people find other areas to play in. Templars are the MOST important role for the health of playing in one city or another. You don't have to be 100% competant and efficient.

You need to look at yourself as 50% flavour, and 50% mover and shaker. Then new PCs flock to the city and ironically you end up more powerful short term AND long term than a murderous twinky templar.

Even the majority of enemies will respect a well played templar more and not do everything in their power to bring them down, as opposed to the one who blasts any percieved threat and constantly hires assassins to eliminate even slightly annoying enemies. As a player of antagonist type pcs I guarantee the more shitty and unfair you are as a templar the stronger the indy, raider and antagonist population becomes.

Sahtuk was a blast to play and one of my all-time favorites. Thank you!

[Inks]

Sahtuk was a blast to play and one of my all-time favorites. Thank you!

Cool, I played that pro-Tek cultist guy who made the tower engraved flails -Jerric from memory?

And later Hoge.

Fun times in Nak those days, good work for your contribution