A higher standard

[Halcyon]

I'd like to assert bullying, killing and mudsex do not qualify as meaningful rp.   Can we do better, please?

[Brytta Léofa]

Sometimes people claim to be asserting general principles when they're actually heartbroken by specific circumstances, and this feels to me like one of those times.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on what you said in long form when you're able.

But as a blanket statement I don't think this works.

- There are kinds of bullying that are fundamental to the setting. Half-elf hate. Intimidation to extract bribes/tribute.

- Killing, I mean, it's right there on the label. ("Murder, corruption, betrayal.") The threat of death and its permanency are what make Arm have high emotional stakes.

- Mudsex...I come the closest to agreeing with you here. Sometimes this is done for OOC kicks, and it spawns some of the chintziest plotlines. However sexual relationships are a big part of human(oid) life and a lot of people want to go there in one way or another.

[Tailong]

I disagree. If all are done in character, with zero OOC motivation then they are absolutely meaningful roleplay.

[Halcyon]

Most bullying seems to me to fall into two categories.   Denying a character access to one or more rp locations, and denying a character money.   I hope we can all agree limiting rp is a poor idea, and that money is essentially worthless after an early point, making challenges to it pointless.

Killing as the culmination of an interaction; gold.   Killing as the only interaction, dross.   Do we really want the standard of the game to be who knows the mechanics the best, can get away with the most training shenanigans, and has the most time to do so?   If we want people to grind less and rp, lowering the threshold to speak to another pc and survive is a good thing.  If we want rp stages like apartments to be usable, kill less.

I feel sometimes like some people want abusive templars and assassins inside the cities and raiders outside.  This will not cause a gritty setting.  It will just limit where I can play to get away from some of you.  Example in point, Bynners who never leave the Byn compound and crafters that never leave the GMH compound or wagon.  How do these forced tactics improve the role play we allege is the goal?

[LindseyBalboa]

'killing bullying sexing' is in for 2022, out with 'murder corruption betrayal'

[Armaddict]

This is a fallacious thing to say.  What is meaningful for one person can come across as bullying to someone else.  What is a well-developed relationship where you have intimacy can just be pointless mudsexxing to someone else.

Roleplaying is simply playing a character within a given setting.  Armageddon pushes this beyond the realm of most typical RPGs by having a static sandbox that you play within; you are not the main hero in any story other than your own.  The main plot is a large overarching one where sometimes, just sometimes, your character is part of a historical moment.  The setting of Armageddon is one that nurtures typical 'mean behaviors' in order to keep competition and danger at a high level in promotion of player-induced conflict.  Simply put, the more ruthless players are, the less dependent players are on staff to make them cool plots.

Now, griefing is not part of this.  Griefing is destructive to the game world.  Griefing is also exceedingly rare, far more often used as a negative-sounding banner to line up behaviors under in order to pre-emptively demonize those who defend those behaviors.  Fortunately, there are plenty of players on Armageddon who have seen the game progress through different phases (that are often cyclical) who can recognize when things are going too far in one way or the other.  This is why 'hate cycles' occur here on the GDB, among the random knee-jerk reactions to things as well.

Armageddon is an RPG that thrives more with more diverse players.  I want more mudsexxers.  I want more people trying to bully.  I want more killers.  I want more political idealists.  I want more political cutthroats.  I want more white knights.  I want more rough'n tumblers.  I want more merchants.  I want more crafters.  I want more people who just want to hunt, so that other people can be impressed and make contact and be that one person who can get the person 'out on the fringe' to do things for others.  I want more thieves.  I want more bards.  I want more rogue mages.

The thing I -don't- want are more people completely centralized on some arbitrary story that they came up with on creation who refuse to allow the game to influence that story.  The thing I don't want is more characters that will only engage in low-risk activity until they are good and ready; it stymies the overall story in pursuit of some perfect self-story that does not exist.  I don't want Armageddon limited to just one clique of roleplayers who all agree they're great and the others who play differently are just shit.

Never tell me to want less of diverse Armageddon players.  This story gets way more awesome on a personal level and in the overall story the more diverse the playerbase is.  You never realize how much you need those players until you're playing bynner #05 who still hasn't had a contract that actually scared the shit out of you because you could tell it was no longer a baby in staffer's hands when raiders suddenly come by.  You never realize how much you need those players until you're playing a crafter who suddenly doesn't know any of those people who are always out hunting and fighting who bring you random things you never knew you could use.  Everyone, save the rare griefer, is welcome here and completely able to contribute.

[Tranquil]

-snip-

Total agree here.

[najdorf]

I'd like to assert bullying, killing and mudsex alone do not qualify as meaningful rp.
However, from the OP one can derive the opposite:
Bullying, killing and mudsex are bad RP. (in and of itself)
Which is plain wrong.

[Night Queen]

https://1984theatre.blogspot.com/2014/04/final-piece-write-up.html

https://nypost.com/2021/07/28/medusa-sculpture-honoring-me-too-vandalized-in-nyc-again/

Sex is not evil, I think Disney is right and love makes good stories, and puritan religiofascist horror is not a future to want... BUT that said... Putting a character in a position where they think they will be harmed if they don't accommodate someone sexually is a totally different thing, and that is rape even if no physical force is used, as widely decided by the laws of most countries. And rape is against the rules - There shouldn't be special definitions of rape that allow people to act in ways that are widely considered rape. No Lord Weinsteins pls.


Some PK focused characters can give off the vibe that they are acting out as a power fantasy of being abusive that they would like to be in real life (and this again is a pretty common thing), but at the same time it's important to try not assume too much without knowing, this is coming up as a big thing in fiction right now since no one wants people to think they actually endorse behaviour of characters that act in ways that are awful in a real life context, and in a lot of RP games people will not play villainous characters at all because they will be harassed if they do. So no one does!

And you just get endless "bar RP" which is what you might think you want at first, but most people get bored of and fade out from - at that point when there's nothing RP that isn't in the real world already, it'd be better for those people to make more friends with real people instead of characters (for the sake of future humanity, people that are able to enjoy complex text-based stories like Armageddon probably need to have as many children as possible, which is not the usual environmental guidance but you lot are special ) ...I said before when an old staff came back here, and started making posts attacking the game and going on about how a lot of their best friends used to be players, that it shouldn't have been their priority in Armageddon really.

The conflict between different characters and groups having different levels of power over their different spheres of influence is a very human problem, and so of course it's horrible, because a lot of what this has caused to other people and the planet is pretty horrible. But I think these stories are important, because a lot of the time they are a dark mirror on the real world, and fiction can be a helpful way of understanding the problems the world faces, but with less high stakes. The recent occupation of Luir's was a great example of that.



I've done freeform RP where characters have no way to affect the game world without it being all talked about and discussed, and it can be great RP. And you should do both types of RP, so you don't have a feeling that you can't play happier RP, it's important to not let Armageddon be the centre of everything, because it's not (I'm not defending mindlessly, even though I could word out to a lot of thousands quite easily I'm waiting to see if some things get better before I make that kind of commitment, plus I think the culture is a little too heavy on the use of unwritten rules and would be easy to destroy by too much publicity right now - it can make a small community worse for sure when things are so fragile). But Armageddon does have a place - and I think it's interesting and I like that it has the conviction to keep RP as a priority over making gameplay that everyone can be good at with quests that are impossible to fail, because there's pleeeeenty of that around already.




On killing, I still think it needs to be explicitly mentioned in the rules that RP reasons are required, because even though it says it in a kind of vague way in the roles and the roleplaying help file, it's not clear enough really that roleplaying is more than typing commands:

Seriously, make it less wishy-washy on the website and have a rule that RP is required, make things more interesting:

It seems like there's two prongs that need different solutions, 1. The people that say they aren't able to trust - which can lead to doing things that actually makes it worse for everyone (above) - get rid of the encouragement of contacting other players from the forums and bring chat back to the site 2. The rules page doesn't mention killing explicitly but instead it's left as a grey area

Roleplaying is a requirement on Armageddon MUD. This involves assuming the role of a character of your creation, and acting the way your character would

- I've seen mentions before on the forum that it's frowned upon for people to kill for little justification and that staff will step in, but even having seen it talked about it before I can't think of what to put in the search to find those posts again, let alone someone that hasn't read about it before, and no way to search easily through staff posts

Maybe some of these crappy situations maybe could've been better if people had been more forewarned? Maybe something like this, brainstorm something better, or against having something like this? From some of the comments in this thread:

2. If your character is going to attempt to kill another character, roleplay that is not combat alone and a reasonable story justification is expected that is supported by your character's background or past history, whether it be through some level of roleplay with the other character (preferred, this creates a more interesting story for other players, you might also want to think how you would prefer to be treated on the receiving end) or use of the in-character "think" or "feel" commands.

At the moment also there's no mention of think, feel, or biographies in the Intro page for new players on the website, no mention in the Character section or Roleplaying page too

[stoicreader]

I'd like to assert bullying, killing and mudsex do not qualify as meaningful rp.   Can we do better, please?

Agreed. Except wait... Isn't the game about post apocalyptic sex?

[betweenford]

I wonder what the OP's thoughts on mudsex are.

[Hestia]

I'd like to assert bullying, killing and mudsex do not qualify as meaningful rp.   Can we do better, please?

If you have a specific concern about specific incidents, and/or recent events, please submit a player complaint via the request tool.

Since that was a pretty empirical statement without supportive data.

Bullying and killing are literally part of the theme of the game.  Not personally fond of sexy time in game but fading to black DOES count, and it DOES have its place in interaction between characters.

[Halcyon]

I wonder what the OP's thoughts on mudsex are.

My main thrust is to add to the game.  Two characters (or fifteen) who never login outside of a closed estate or tribal tent doesnt add much to the game, for me.   Byn sergeants who sleep with one (or a half dozen) lovers or favorites or playthings between contracts, fine.   

Like my original post, exclusionary and limiting, bad, engaging and inclusive good.

You will note I didnt refer to griefing or sex in my original post. 

[Majikal]

I would love to change some possible outlooks on Armageddon, there are players that hyper focus on the skillgrind, there are players that hyper focus on the relationship RP and ERP, there are players that strike a multitude of balances between all of these, there are even players that avoid conflict and try to stay the course entirely with friendly social roles only to tap out when things get too violent or harsh for their liking. I'm just happy they're playing.

Unless your actions are damaging to the community or are designed to hinder the spirit of roleplay in the game or the game itself you're fine. This is a reminder that there is in fact NO wrong way to enjoy Armageddon. The more people playing, regardless of how, are more points of potential contact/interest/fun for everyone. Even if you run off to the edges of the map and solo rp for months and months, I don't care, thanks for playing.

Hard to argue that someone mudsexxing is not providing at least some form of entertainment for one of your fellow players. =P

Murder? This game loses so much appeal without this, if you feel like you're too often the victim of it, perhaps try to understand why?

Bullying, do your best to give your fellow player the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they're too harsh and could use some guidance on how to make this sort of thing more inclusive, yes, maybe you're missing an opportunity for a point of conflict and a chance to turn it into something even more interesting, most likely they believe they're providing you with an interaction and also consider that you being bullied is just as important to their story which is equally worth accommodating.

[Night Queen]

You will note I didnt refer to griefing or sex in my original post.

Your first post literally said that, what

sex do not qualify as meaningful rp

Seems more like a call for a requirement for role calls to be more involved in public RP - at the moment the docs for nobles does not support that, and in fact encourages not interacting with commoners - they'd still be hiding in their estates or wagons if sex wasn't part of it (merchants that rarely ever leave their wagons um.. Get made agent NPCs I guess? ), you are actually, ironically, publicly bullying people who have sex (and unfortunately this can't be read outside the context of being posted in a culture where it's still the norm in some places to engage in this kind of town-square slutshaming)

[Halaster]

Two characters (or fifteen) who never login outside of a closed estate or tribal tent doesnt add much to the game, for me.

emphasis in bold mine.

So, it's not always about you.  If those two people are locked away in a tent getting it on, and they're enjoying the game, then good for them.  They're not here to entertain you.  Try not to think about it from a "me only" perspective, but be happy for people that they are enjoying themselves.

[betweenford]

You will note I didnt refer to griefing or sex in my original post.

You did tho.

[roughneck]

Nobody plays the game the way you play it, and Staff will never run the game you way you would run it.

To enjoy Armageddon, one must accept and appreciate these two aspects of the experience. You play in the sandbox, but it ain't your sandbox.

That being said, I think most of us who have played for a while have had at least one moment where we have been mad or resentful, or disagreed strongly with something. Everybody else doesn't think like you, and in this way, Armageddon is no different than being a part of any other community.

Appreciate you, Halcyon, and I'm 99% sure that your roleplay, although different than mine, adds to the game. So please keep playing .

[downer]

Two characters (or fifteen) who never login outside of a closed estate or tribal tent doesnt add much to the game, for me.

emphasis in bold mine.

So, it's not always about you.  If those two people are locked away in a tent getting it on, and they're enjoying the game, then good for them.  They're not here to entertain you.  Try not to think about it from a "me only" perspective, but be happy for people that they are enjoying themselves.

I genuinely hope that this isn't staff's stance on role calls, which I believe is generally the issue in mudsex RP complaints.  The Byn Sergeant that's never around cause they're banging Troopers 1 through 3, a Merchant, and just seldom around to do the thing they applied to do, generate and support more wide arching player engagement.  I've seen the same behavior in Nobles, AOD and Merchants as well, all role calls positions.

I totally agree that it's not a "me only" perspective.  Perhaps I am misinformed about the expectations of role calls?  I was under the impression that they (role calls), specifically, shouldn't be focused on "me only" RP either.  It would make a lot more sense why I find so many of them disappointing in their engagement.  I don't care if they bang as long as they are still doing the job of the role they were selected for.

[Hestia]

Vaguebooking to point fingers at specific current players to shame them for WHATEVER - will get this thread locked like the last one.

As I said upthread:

If you have a specific concern about specific incidents, and/or recent events, please submit a player complaint via the request tool.

This thread is, theoretically, about a general complaint, about general behaviors, in general. As a general rule, if players are engaging in roleplay with each other, then they're fulfilling their "obligation" to roleplay in the game.

There are exceptions but this thread isn't about exceptions.  If I'm mistaken and it IS about exceptions, then I'll go ahead and lock it, because exceptions belong in the request tool as a player complaint.

[najdorf]

Two characters (or fifteen) who never login outside of a closed estate or tribal tent doesnt add much to the game, for me.

emphasis in bold mine.

So, it's not always about you.  If those two people are locked away in a tent getting it on, and they're enjoying the game, then good for them.  They're not here to entertain you.  Try not to think about it from a "me only" perspective, but be happy for people that they are enjoying themselves.

I genuinely hope that this isn't staff's stance on role calls, which I believe is generally the issue in mudsex RP complaints.  The Byn Sergeant that's never around cause they're banging Troopers 1 through 3, a Merchant, and just seldom around to do the thing they applied to do, generate and support more wide arching player engagement.  I've seen the same behavior in Nobles, AOD and Merchants as well, all role calls positions.

I totally agree that it's not a "me only" perspective.  Perhaps I am misinformed about the expectations of role calls?  I was under the impression that they (role calls), specifically, shouldn't be focused on "me only" RP either.  It would make a lot more sense why I find so many of them disappointing in their engagement.  I don't care if they bang as long as they are still doing the job of the role they were selected for.

For role calls, they are a special case and is mentioned in the role call clearly (that high playtimes and driving players for RP is required, etc.)
The real juicy part is that you don't hope that it is the case, but then keep on building a set of arguments as if it is.

[Dresan]

lol. The original post is so vague and without any context it is practically a troll post to get a rise from people. 

What is even less surprising to see is the usual replies on mudsex.

The game policies already ensure one is forced to agree, partake or even see mudsex in the game. However, it is a part of the game.

So if we are really going to do 'better', why don't we stop the borderline slut shaming that has on in in these forums for years? At the very least, it would be nice to see people not feel the sad need to write how 'they personally don't like it' before posting their opinions on the subject.

[Halcyon]

Nevermind

[Tuannon]

lol. The original post is so vague and without any context it is practically a troll post to get a rise from people. 

As Hestia stated above, it is impossible to give specifics without having the thread locked.

[Master Color]

A few points.

Discussions like these tend to have back and forth recriminations and constant bludgeoning with straw bats. I remember getting strawmanned, called a snowflake and told I should leave the game when I brought up some of the problems in pc pvp. Maybe avoid doing that in this instance and take a moment to consider why someone might be distressed at the state of the game.

Receiving a "you should/shouldn't have done x" or even a "you don't understand x about the game" are especially infuriating when it comes from staff members.

Speaking of problems with PvP. It actually ain't that great though.

If I'm gonna clap back against a pc (even in just a rude social manner), I often need to weigh how likely they're going to deploy their 15 day training regimen, lure me into a backroom, call their assassin buddy over discord, or just remake a whiran to spam HANDS OF FUCKING FURY at me. It's often just not even worth the time having a minor negative interaction with the desert elves on your turf, shit talking your boss in front of you. When they might just respond with perraine arrows the next day from outside the gate. And remaining constantly vigilant just in case they might pull one of the above on me? No. Fuck no.

Even watching it from the sidelines is pretty toxic sometimes. I've been wrapped up in  situations while players were high fiving each other after an extremely dubious pk and thinking to myself "why is this even allowed?" and then getting punished if I pushed the issue at players or staff.