Feedback on Idea Wanted: Rationalization of Existing Mundane Subclasses

[Brokkr]

After discussion in Discord, replaced Forage (which was just a handful of points above the lowest any guild gets it at anyways) with woodworking at Advanced.

[mansa]

After discussion in Discord, replaced Forage (which was just a handful of points above the lowest any guild gets it at anyways) with woodworking at Advanced.

We were talking about the Crafter subclass specifically.

Subclass Name:	Skill:	Proficiency:
Crafter	Woodworking	Advanced
	Value	Advanced
	Basketweaving	Master
	Clayworking	Master
	Club Making	Master
	Stonecrafting	Master
	Toolmaking	Master
Master Potter	Forage	Master
	Haggle	Advanced
	Value	Advanced
	Dyeing	Master
	Clayworking	Master
	Toolmaking	Master
	Pain Tolerance Perk
Jeweler	Haggle	Advanced
	Value	Advanced
	Feather Working	Advanced
	Jewelrymaking	Master
	Stonecrafting	Advanced
	Toolmaking	Advanced

[Fredd]

For potter:
Remove toolmaking

Add: Stonecrafting

Reasoning: A lot of vases, bowls, cups, ect. are made with stonecrafting.

Reasoning 2: Makes this an absolute ACE for thiefy types to take as a sub.



edit: Jeweler needs Dying, and has 1 slot open.

[Brokkr]

• All zero karma subclasses need to keep all existing skills.

Toolmaking is an existing Master Potter skill.

The reason this bullet point is here is because if it gets removing as a skill from the subclass, existing characters will have it drop off their skill list.  And, as we have said before, there is no versioning for classes or subclasses, which would be necessary to fix this.  While the bullet point says zero karma subclasses, it is also relevant to Master Potter because of this limitation.

[Fredd]

• All zero karma subclasses need to keep all existing skills.

Toolmaking is an existing Master Potter skill.

The reason this bullet point is here is because if it gets removing as a skill from the subclass, existing characters will have it drop off their skill list.  And, as we have said before, there is no versioning for classes or subclasses, which would be necessary to fix this.  While the bullet point says zero karma subclasses, it is also relevant to Master Potter because of this limitation.

i was shafted by toolmaking!

Fair enough

[Delirium]

I like this iteration. Seems solid as is, and any minor quibbles were already discussed but aren't hills I'd care to plant a flag on.

[mansa]

Does "Master Trader" also get "master" level Pilot skill, similar to House Servant and Caravan Guide?

[Armaddict]

My previous post was written before I understood the current proposal, so while it's a cool idea, it's also completely unnecessary. xD

I like this iteration.  It will improve over what we have.  I'm not certain it totally encompasses 'my vision', but I believe it will serve the majority of the playerbase in their needs and wants, which means I can thumbs up it.  Maybe we can set up a time for review in the future, to see how everyone thinks it's impacting the game as a whole.

[Nao]

I like the sling use on grebber. It could be added to wastelander, too - they might want to snack on some small and skittish game every once in a while instead of being vegetarians.

Why not just keep Marksman and either add Archer as another option or phase it out? Marksman is fine as it is, and Featherworking that has to be kept and the limit of 7 skills make Archer a bit awkward.

[ShaiHulud]

Sling use seems, out of place to me for Grebber. Yeah they can forage sling stones? So can everyone else.
Personally, I think Grebber should get Jman skin..to clean up and profit from all the waste that so many leave behind.

[Brytta Léofa]

Personally, I think Grebber should get Jman skin..to clean up and profit from all the waste that so many leave behind.

That fits well with its theme and would make it an even better complement to Fighter.

[Armaddict]

That fits well with its theme and would make it an even better complement to Fighter.

Should probably avoid a subclass design that is based around meshing them directly interlocking with classes.  That's what literally leads to lack of variety and choices in the first place.  Every decision regarding creation has gains and sacrifices, unless you enter this design loop where each class has these 3 viable subclasses; everything else is just overlap.

[Brokkr]

I can have everything I need if it just has X....is a good reason to not include X.

[Dresan]

The subclasses look pretty interesting.

A few are a bit more questionable than others. For example, I don't know if I would risk a good character concept using subclass level theft levels skills on PCs but other people's millage may vary. I am  also not sure if poisoner is that good, blowgun without stealth skills is difficult to say the least, not to mention skinning is currently a very important component of getting powerful poisons but in the future that may change a bit. Additonally, I was fairly disappointed with msicreant level brew as well, and poisner's skill level  is probably lower.  Again though people's millage might vary.

One thing I would like to see is the name physician be changed to something more in line with the low tech world theme( maybe just use healer). The name physician seems like a very modern word, and feels out of place for every day commoners, medic as a word seems a bit better but still a bit out of place in low tech world.

The other thing is that physician should have some level of direction sense, for the same reason that chef has direction sense. This is a bit of a derail so bare with me but I really wish foraging for medical herbs and ingredients to be used with brew skill would become a specialized abilitiy similar to foraging for food in the wilderness. Its been a while since my character could forage for food but I remember there being some things you can only find with forage food in the wilderness that should probably be classified as a herb, or at the very least not as a food.

Anyways since a physician would need to forage for medical herbs outside the gates, they should also have some ability deal the weather turning bad on them before they can get home, journeyman direction sense is good enough for that. 

[X-D]

Poisoner looks good the way it is.
NOT getting stealth makes it the far more useful sub.

[Dresan]

Poisoner looks good the way it is.
NOT getting stealth makes it the far more useful sub.

Its just the changes planned for poison makes finding poison ingredients (forage/skining, +wilderness skills),  crafter stronger poison(brew), applying it(poisoning) and excecution(stealth, blowgun,food,throw,archery,etc) all their own areas of strength. In the future all these will also be possible points of failure and the poisoner seems to be trying to do a little of everything without really being that effective at accomplishing much.

I would probably prefer it to have narrowed down the scope and made the subclass better at a select fewer areas. Since slipknife can already apply poison and be great at execution, it would have been nice to have a subguild that focuses on finding and making it more so than anything else.

My dream  poisoner subguild(which focuses on getting and making poison):

• direction sense- journeyman
• forage-advanced
• brew- master
• poisoning - advanced
• skinning-advanced
• can stealth in both city/wilderness [Just flags, not skills]  (I will this admit this might be a bit strong, but regardless if its searching or attempting to execute the poison with whatever other skills you have, the poisoner can benefit from stealth flags but not skills, thus it wouldn't have any greater level of stealth higher than their class offers).

[Brokkr]

Personally, I think Grebber should get Jman skin..to clean up and profit from all the waste that so many leave behind.

That fits well with its theme and would make it an even better complement to Fighter.

Just to clarify, there is a combination of skills I am trying to avoid putting on a single subclass.  This version of subclasses expands the number that have 3/4 of those skills, but none should have all of:

climb
skinning
ride
direction sense

Whenever I look at the non-Wilderness classes and thing about how I would want to use them in the Wilderness, those are the four skills I would want.  Which is a good point for no subclass needing to get them all.  Thus making it a choice which combination you want, as well as making sure no subclass is such a perfect fit for everything that would be wanted to switch to the wilderness.

[Dresan]

Thus making it a choice which combination you want, as well as making sure no subclass is such a perfect fit for everything that would be wanted to switch to the wilderness.

All the characters I had that referred to themselves as grebber could not afford to ride out on a mount. The jobs they did were mining, searching for food at the farms, clay and salting back in the day. Same up north with different list of stuff. They all walk out of the city on foot or stayed in alleys, and walk back to a tavern before the end of the day, they all kept to themselves and try not to stand out because no one with good skills would need to greb.

Hunters hunt, grebbers do not, they just skin whatever they find, like dead scrab at the gates, rats or chalton.  I would remove hunt and ride from grebber, there are many more subguilds offering those two skills that make better sense, remove sling_use and give it to some other sub-guild too, maybe to outlaw instead of hunt since it will help them be more self-sufficient.  Grebbers would then get  journeyman skin, and bonuses to cutting wood and break plants.  I would consider given them some duo stealth skills even if its only sneak,as staying out of sight is key to finding good stuff on the ground regardless of whether you are in the city or wilderness and getting back to a tavern without someone robbing your dusty unskilled, unaffiliated ass.


One should keep in mind that half of the non-karma races do not benefit from ride skill. It is an important wilderness skill, and its nice to see a lot of subguilds with it,  but its not useful for everyone so some more variety in wilderness sub-guilds is good. 

[Delirium]

Personally, I think Grebber should get Jman skin..to clean up and profit from all the waste that so many leave behind.

That fits well with its theme and would make it an even better complement to Fighter.

Just to clarify, there is a combination of skills I am trying to avoid putting on a single subclass.  This version of subclasses expands the number that have 3/4 of those skills, but none should have all of:

climb
skinning
ride
direction sense

Whenever I look at the non-Wilderness classes and thing about how I would want to use them in the Wilderness, those are the four skills I would want.  Which is a good point for no subclass needing to get them all.  Thus making it a choice which combination you want, as well as making sure no subclass is such a perfect fit for everything that would be wanted to switch to the wilderness.

Though it pains me, I have to agree with this. Being able to slap all those skills on a class (especially city/criminal) that wouldn't otherwise get them seems a bit too min-max "don't need nobody now."

Pick and choose what's most important to your concept and find somebody else for the rest.

Clarification: I mean getting those skills to a high (aka advanced+) level, from a subclass.  I still think all classes should be able to branch climb, and maybe skin, like you do ride & pilot, to a very low cap.

[Halcyon]

Just to clarify, there is a combination of skills I am trying to avoid putting on a single subclass.  This version of subclasses expands the number that have 3/4 of those skills, but none should have all of:

climb
skinning
ride
direction sense

[/quote]

I see the point, mechanically, but I still want to ask:  What about a single subguild for solo play?

Hermit
outdoor quit
outdoor food forage
climb, dsense, skin and ride at APPRENTICE

[mansa]

What about a single subguild for solo play?

Hermit
outdoor quit
outdoor food forage
climb, dsense, skin and ride at APPRENTICE

If you were going to solo play, why wouldn't you pick the classes designed for solo wilderness play, and then pick a subclass that makes them more unique to your character?

Scout	Wilderness Quit
	Wilderness Forage Food
	Climb
	Direction Sense
	Skinning
	Ride
Stalker	Wilderness Quit
	Wilderness Forage Food
	Climb
	Direction Sense
	Skinning
	Ride
Adventurer	Wilderness Quit
	Wilderness Forage Food
	Climb
	Direction Sense
	Skinning
	Ride

[Brokkr]

Just to clarify, there is a combination of skills I am trying to avoid putting on a single subclass.  This version of subclasses expands the number that have 3/4 of those skills, but none should have all of:

climb
skinning
ride
direction sense

I see the point, mechanically, but I still want to ask:  What about a single subguild for solo play?

Hermit
outdoor quit
outdoor food forage
climb, dsense, skin and ride at APPRENTICE
[/quote]

I am not sure you've thought that through if you want ride at apprentice.

[Dresan]

The subguilds I want to see:

Survivalist(for players that want to survive outside the walls but have no plans to travel to another far off town/city or far into wastes)

• Wilderness Quit
• Wilderness Forage Food
• Direction Sense-advanced
• Skinning-advanced
• Forage-advanced
• Wilderness sneak-advanced
• Wilderness Hide-advanced

Poison Maker (for players who want to explore the new poison system, be merchants of poison, but not play the part of assassin)

• Direction Sense-advanced
• Skinning-advanced
• Forage-advanced
• Brew- master
• Poisoning- master

[mansa]

These are the proposed subclasses that I have categories as "Exploration subclasses", with the common skills being "direction sense", "ride", and some of the wilderness perks.

Subclass Name:	Skill:	Proficiency:
Hunter	Ride	Advanced
	Direction Sense	Advanced
	Hunt	Advanced
	Scan	Advanced
	Archery	Advanced
	Skinning	Advanced
	Sneak	Advanced
	Wilderness Stealth
	Wilderness Hunt
Nomad	Ride	Advanced
	Direction Sense	Advanced
	Skinning	Journeyman
	Haggle	Advanced
	Speakmaking	Advanced
	Bendune	Master
	Tribal Accent	Master
	Wilderness Quit
	Hitch 2 Mounts
Wastelander	Ride	Advanced
	Direction Sense	Advanced
	Scan	Master
	Search	Advanced
	Bendune	Master
	Tribal Accent	Master
	Forage Food in Wilderness
	Wilderness Quit
Mercenary	Ride	Advanced
	Direction Sense	Advanced
	Watch	Advanced
	Dual Wield	Master
	Armor Repair	Master
	Knife Making	Advanced
	Alcohol Perk
Grebber	Ride	Advanced
	Climb	Advanced
	Hunt	Advanced
	Search	Advanced
	Forage	Advanced
	Direction Sense	Advanced
	Sling Use	Advanced
	Forage Food in City
	Forage Food in Wilderness
	Wilderness Hunt
	Wilderness Stealth
Outlaw	Direction Sense	Advanced
	Sneak	Advanced
	Climb	Advanced
	Hunt	Advanced
	Knife Making	Advanced
	Speakmaking	Advanced
	Armor Repair	Advanced
	Wilderness Stealth
	Wilderness Hunt
Bandit	Ride	Advanced
	Direction Sense	Advanced
	Charge	Advanced
	Threaten	Advanced
	Climb	Advanced
	Hide	Advanced
	Wilderness Stealth
	Wilderness Quit
Mountaineer	Ride	Advanced
	Direction Sense	Advanced
	Climb	Advanced
	Sneak	Advanced
	Hide	Advanced
	Wilderness Stealth
	Wilderness Quit
	Forage food in Wilderness
Master Chef	Direction Sense	Advanced
	Skinning	Advanced
	Forage	Advanced
	Haggle	Advanced
	Cooking	Master
	Forage Food in Wilderness Perk
	Forage Food in City Perk
	Alcohol Tolerance Perk

Personally, I think there may be too many in this category already.

[Dresan]

Personally, I think there may be too many in this category already.

Out to all the wilderness classes you listed, the winner for best wilderness class in my books is master chef, and physician would be a close second if it had direction sense.

Honorable mentioned to mountaineer because it does look pretty good. I based survivalist idea off of it, just without ride and climb.