Feedback on Idea Wanted: Rationalization of Existing Mundane Subclasses

[Lotion]

...
So if your class is part of the classes that get combined (Hunter/Outdoorsman) but NOT the one that keeps its name, you don't get the bonus skills?  That hardly seems fair.  If you're adding ride to the subguild, it can't be that onerous to fix it for the 5-10 people that it might affect.

Classes aren't being "combined", so to speak.

The suggested change is to be:
Outdoorsman is being retired and you can never pick it again.
Existing players who have Outdoorsman won't have any of their skills changed.

Existing players who have Hunter will have their skill cap "increased" and may get additional skills.

That's the same thing, you're just quibbling with words.  Those who chose Outdoorsman get screwed out of ride, those who chose Hunter luck into extra skills.

outdoorsman does not currently give ride

[Brisket]

...
So if your class is part of the classes that get combined (Hunter/Outdoorsman) but NOT the one that keeps its name, you don't get the bonus skills?  That hardly seems fair.  If you're adding ride to the subguild, it can't be that onerous to fix it for the 5-10 people that it might affect.

Classes aren't being "combined", so to speak.

The suggested change is to be:
Outdoorsman is being retired and you can never pick it again.
Existing players who have Outdoorsman won't have any of their skills changed.

Existing players who have Hunter will have their skill cap "increased" and may get additional skills.

That's the same thing, you're just quibbling with words.  Those who chose Outdoorsman get screwed out of ride, those who chose Hunter luck into extra skills.

outdoorsman does not currently give ride

Correct, but Hunter - the new class that gives all of Outdoorsman's skills to Hunter - gets Hunter's ride.

[mansa]

...
So if your class is part of the classes that get combined (Hunter/Outdoorsman) but NOT the one that keeps its name, you don't get the bonus skills?  That hardly seems fair.  If you're adding ride to the subguild, it can't be that onerous to fix it for the 5-10 people that it might affect.

Classes aren't being "combined", so to speak.

The suggested change is to be:
Outdoorsman is being retired and you can never pick it again.
Existing players who have Outdoorsman won't have any of their skills changed.

Existing players who have Hunter will have their skill cap "increased" and may get additional skills.

That's the same thing, you're just quibbling with words.  Those who chose Outdoorsman get screwed out of ride, those who chose Hunter luck into extra skills.

outdoorsman does not currently give ride

Correct, but Hunter - the new class that gives all of Outdoorsman's skills to Hunter - gets Hunter's ride.

Hunter does not get Outdoorsman's hide.


There's basically 3 subclasses
Old Hunter
New Hunter
Outdoorsman

Did you want to drop hide for ride?

[Brisket]

...
So if your class is part of the classes that get combined (Hunter/Outdoorsman) but NOT the one that keeps its name, you don't get the bonus skills?  That hardly seems fair.  If you're adding ride to the subguild, it can't be that onerous to fix it for the 5-10 people that it might affect.

Classes aren't being "combined", so to speak.

The suggested change is to be:
Outdoorsman is being retired and you can never pick it again.
Existing players who have Outdoorsman won't have any of their skills changed.

Existing players who have Hunter will have their skill cap "increased" and may get additional skills.

That's the same thing, you're just quibbling with words.  Those who chose Outdoorsman get screwed out of ride, those who chose Hunter luck into extra skills.

outdoorsman does not currently give ride

Correct, but Hunter - the new class that gives all of Outdoorsman's skills to Hunter - gets Hunter's ride.

Hunter does not get Outdoorsman's hide.


There's basically 3 subclasses
Old Hunter
New Hunter
Outdoorsman

Did you want to drop hide for ride?

Well in the instance of Fighter/Outdoorsman Ride does seem much more useful.

[Brokkr]

And?  Outdoorsman characters would not be loosing any skills they currently have.

Hunter and Outdoorsman would be equivalently powerful.  That will be the bar, not going to worry about some sort of one character per player make whole.

And sort of surprised no one is making suggestions like "Keep hunter and outdoorsman and tweak this and that so they are significantly different to merit still existing".

[Dresan]

Staff should probably consider:

• Giving thug city sneak and/or bounty hunter city sneak, as an alternative to getting sap on cutpurse
• Mountaineer sounds like the new grebber(would keep grebber name), would indeed give them master climb and add advanced forage
• Con artist should probably be removed, giving value/hide to bard since it lost steal
• Consider giving mercenary advanced disarm instead of master dual wield

[Patuk]

And?  Outdoorsman characters would not be loosing any skills they currently have.

Hunter and Outdoorsman would be equivalently powerful.  That will be the bar, not going to worry about some sort of one character per player make whole.

And sort of surprised no one is making suggestions like "Keep hunter and outdoorsman and tweak this and that so they are significantly different to merit still existing".

As long as outoorsman still gives the wilderness hide flag to classes that can already hide but get it for city environments, I think it'd be just fine.

[mansa]

And?  Outdoorsman characters would not be loosing any skills they currently have.

Hunter and Outdoorsman would be equivalently powerful.  That will be the bar, not going to worry about some sort of one character per player make whole.

And sort of surprised no one is making suggestions like "Keep hunter and outdoorsman and tweak this and that so they are significantly different to merit still existing".

As long as outoorsman still gives the wilderness hide flag to classes that can already hide but get it for city environments, I think it'd be just fine.

Both Outdoorsman and Hunter give the "wilderness" stealth flags, so when Outdoorsman gets retired and Hunter gets boosted those flags shouldn't go away.

[Miradus]

Need more zero karma city stealth subguild options besides the ultra-shitty house servant and thief.

[mansa]

Need more zero karma city stealth subguild options besides the ultra-shitty house servant and thief.

What skills would you give another city stealth subclass?

For reference, this is what is suggested:

House Servant	Hide	Advanced
	Pilot	Advanced
	Scan	Advanced
	Listen	Advanced
	Watch	Advanced
	Cooking	Master
	Floristry	Advanced
	City Stealth
Con Artist	Hide	Advanced
	Scan	Advanced
	Watch	Advanced
	Sleight of Hand	Advanced
	Haggle	Advanced
	Value	Advanced
	City Stealth
Thief	Hide	Advanced
	Sneak	Advanced
	Peek	Advanced
	Steal	Advanced
	Sleight of Hand	Advanced
	Scan	Advanced
	City Stealth
Rogue	Hide	Advanced
	Sneak	Advanced
	Climb	Advanced
	Scan	Advanced
	Watch	Advanced
	Search	Advanced
	Pick	Advanced
	City Stealth
Slipknife	Hide	Advanced
	Sneak	Advanced
	Sleight of Hand	Advanced
	Poisoning	Advanced
	Throw	Journeyman
	Backstab	Advanced
	City Stealth

[Brokkr]

Staff should probably consider:

• Giving thug city sneak and/or bounty hunter city sneak, as an alternative to getting sap on cutpurse
• Mountaineer sounds like the new grebber(would keep grebber name), would indeed give them master climb and add advanced forage
• Con artist should probably be removed, giving value/hide to bard since it lost steal
• Consider giving mercenary advanced disarm instead of master dual wield

• Cutpurse is gone, so you'll note you can't get sneak and sap together on a subclass, which was intentional.
• Bard has 6 skills, max is 7.  Bard didn't loose steal anyways?  But yes they are fairly close to one another.
• Mercenary has dual wield not for the combat power, but in conjunction with the ride skill to be able to ride hands full.

[Dresan]

which was intentional.

To be fair, I  do give you the benefit of the doubt most of the changes you make or propose, for better or worse, are intentional, and were not done in a drunken stupor or without some thought behind it. 

It doesn't change my suggestion, that said advance sap/sneak is not the hill i want to die on, neither is bard so I won't say more 

On the topic of disarm, it would be nice to see one of the riding classes offer this, considering many other strong signature skills seem to be added to riding classes. Disarm is good in certain outdoor situation or missions that a mercenary or bounty hunter might encounter. Its just not as great as having ride/direction sense or stealth/backstab in my books so again just not the hill i personally want to die on.   

[Brisket]

And?  Outdoorsman characters would not be loosing any skills they currently have.

Hunter and Outdoorsman would be equivalently powerful.  That will be the bar, not going to worry about some sort of one character per player make whole.

And sort of surprised no one is making suggestions like "Keep hunter and outdoorsman and tweak this and that so they are significantly different to merit still existing".

I'm ok with the idea of adding more differentiation to Hunter and Outdoorsman.  I'm less ok with Outdoorsman not getting ride if Hunter gets brought up to its 'level'.  Low/no ride is more or less unplayable for an outdoors character that isn't an elf.  That was a trade off considered in the esg/regular subg divide but would've lead to a different decision by at least some amount of people. 

[Brokkr]

Someone mentioned something in the Storms bread that got me to thinking.  Which is typically a slippery slope so I should do less of that but...

Origen subclasses.  Skills would be the skills that get boosted for starting in that place, maybe one or two others if that isn't a lot.

I don't usually do this, but since it is relevant to this, we have had conversations about looking at starting bonuses to possibly differentiate a bit more.  So keep in mind.

[X-D]

That is an idea...

Question, Just boosted? IE You have to have the skill.


I could see it being viable either way. but, I think you would need 3 subs for each starting spot. Tuluki hunter/melee sub, crafter sub and sneaky sub.

So, hunter gets bonus to tree hugging, wearing wood and sneering, while crafter sub gets the wooden...yeah, anyway, you know what I mean.

[Brokkr]

I am talking about the skills you get boosted for origin.  So like Allanak Origen gets slashing and dual wield, most obviously.  So basing a subclass around those skills that get those origin boosts, perhaps a couple of more skills depending on how many skills that is.

Just an idle thought.

Edited to add: used to call them starting location bonuses but now they are determined by your origen not start location.

[X-D]

Alright, Still sounds cool.

[Dresan]

While it makes sense, origin boosts are a little meta. Certain skills are not hard to level up at low levels.

The most valuable current boosts are to weapon skills because of the offense/defense requirements to improve them.

If you suddenly said a certain location gave a boost to two-handed skill you would suddenly see people start from there more frequently for that same reason.

Instead what I would like to see is instead of orgin boosts, and class stat boosts...replace all that with background traits, allowing players pick one or two traits at creation to further customize their characters.

[Veselka]

I think it was more what I was saying about people who origin in Red Storm and Luirs have a boost to direction sense.

EDIT:

Also, I don't know if the origin boosts are known except by helpfile? So it might be nice to include when making a character, particularly for new players, if it had a short paragraph blurb about the region you are choosing as an origin, and then asks you to confirm.

ALLANAK

A red-sandstone walled city state located in the Vrun Driath, most people who originate from the region are used to hardship and living under the brutal regime of Nobles and Templars that exact the Sorcerer King, Tektolnes', will. Law and order here are foreign concepts -- whatever the Templarate deems 'lawful' at the time is the absolute. Blah blah blah, flavor text.

-You start with a boost to slashing weapons
-You start with a boost to dual wield
-You start with a boost to evading drama

Is this the origin you would like for your character? (Y/N)

[Fredd]

Just gonna toss this into the mix.

It'de be nice for City Hunt to be on a sub class.

Slipknife's j.man throw seems weak af. switch it with C. Hunt maybe?

[Dresan]

My favorite subguild is outlaw. I don't see the update for it.

The wilderness stealth, direction sense and two crafting skills are nice when you the ride skill isn't important to your chosen race .

[Veselka]

Just gonna toss this into the mix.

It'de be nice for City Hunt to be on a sub class.

Slipknife's j.man throw seems weak af. switch it with C. Hunt maybe?

Agreed -- I'd like to see them get advanced throw (honestly), or short of that, city hunt would be cool definitely.

I'd honestly prefer the choice for city OR wilderness hunt at chargen, rather than needing to pick the right subguild etc. Choosing the right subguild could give you both. It's just a bit esoteric right now.

[Brokkr]

Just gonna toss this into the mix.

It'de be nice for City Hunt to be on a sub class.

Slipknife's j.man throw seems weak af. switch it with C. Hunt maybe?

Agreed -- I'd like to see them get advanced throw (honestly), or short of that, city hunt would be cool definitely.

I'd honestly prefer the choice for city OR wilderness hunt at chargen, rather than needing to pick the right subguild etc. Choosing the right subguild could give you both. It's just a bit esoteric right now.

Slipknife isn't going away and see how it was all done ie no changing stuff that will impact existing characters.

We intentionally coded stuff like which environment hunt/sneak will work in into the classes and subclasses.  We can't even switch this around in a spec app, intentionally.

[Fredd]

Just gonna toss this into the mix.

It'de be nice for City Hunt to be on a sub class.

Slipknife's j.man throw seems weak af. switch it with C. Hunt maybe?

Agreed -- I'd like to see them get advanced throw (honestly), or short of that, city hunt would be cool definitely.

I'd honestly prefer the choice for city OR wilderness hunt at chargen, rather than needing to pick the right subguild etc. Choosing the right subguild could give you both. It's just a bit esoteric right now.

Slipknife isn't going away and see how it was all done ie no changing stuff that will impact existing characters.

We intentionally coded stuff like which environment hunt/sneak will work in into the classes and subclasses.  We can't even switch this around in a spec app, intentionally.

That makes sense. AFAIK no subclass has C.hunt. And it would be great to be able to get it there.

It looks like it would fit rogue but... That'de make rogue to OP, imho.

[Lotion]

It would be neat to have a subguild that gives no skills and only gives flags. both hunts, both stealth, and both scans. For listen it would be awkward because they are separate skills now and not based on flags. If listen could be changed to have a city/wild flag ala hunt, stealth, scan, etc. then those could also be added. Currently the closest we have are in the touched subguilds of whira and drov.