Feedback on Idea Wanted: Rationalization of Existing Mundane Subclasses

[Lotion]

I don't understand why there's so much resistance to an obvious, simple fix to roughrider that's been suggested multiple times by different people but now we're stuck on this "master skill" subclass tree discussion instead, which felt created entirely to support the idea of refusing to add skills to roughrider and bumping what they do have to master.

I'm halfway tempted to ask for some examples to justify the reasoning behind it but I've been salty enough already.

Actually I started with the idea of addressing feedback from awhile ago how none of the subclasses get maxed stealth and worked backwards from there.

Stealth flags are more important than max stealth. I think no subguild should give higher stealth than some nebulous concept of "high advanced". A stalker or miscreant can still take their max stealth and gain more stealth flags through subguilds. Stalker/cutpurse is fantastic fun. Touched whiran is a great example of a very flexible and useful subguild when viewed from a mundane lens. It gives both listens to a reasonable level, both scans to jman, both sneakhides to jman. By itself it's very mediocre but the sheer utility of a miscreant/stalker paired with the mundane skills of touched whiran is absolutely fantastic.

[Lotion]

Outlaw - Whelp, yep I forgot one.

MV Regen - Yes, that can be toggled on a subclass.

If there was a subclass that got stalker regen... oh baby

[Brisket]

The 'mastery' classes aren't great, the others are good.

[Mercy]

I don't want to beat a dead horse, which I feel like I am doing, but the impression I'm getting here is that class and subclass balance is literally not on the table. Subclasses are effectively "Small Classes". My earlier statement wasn't with min/maxing your utility in mind, but simply enabling utility outside of what the base class offer. What I'm seeing presently, looks like creating subclasses with the idea of min/maxing your utility because subclasses offer skills at maximums previously available exclusively to classes. Granted, my meta-knowledge of skills and skillcaps is limited as all fuck. I used to take that shit way too seriously for my liking, and these days I look at skills through the lens of "at what level can my character realistically portray confidence vs just lying through their teeth" and what things are likely to just straight up murder me if I don't understand how the code works (coughccoughlcoughicoughmcoughbcough). So maybe I'm mistaken. Maybe this is already a thing and I just haven't paid enough attention, and it's just being consolidated into a tighter list.

(oh snap I just saw the class thread)

If I'm not misunderstanding, than I have no feedback. I genuinely can't wrap my head around it to offer meaningful input. Not to suggest it isn't a good approach, I just don't know enough.

[Veselka]

A few thoughts:

-Make certain sub guilds only available with certain class choices or through karma spends. Make certain combos reachable only through special application (that's what it's there for, right?)
-Make Mages classes instead of sub-classes. I feel this would balance things pretty smoothly.
-Make mastery choices available LATER in the game cycle. They can unlock when you reach certain days played, or X in certain synergies of your class skills. You pick it at creation of the PC, but don't get it until later.

[Dresan]

I think advanced stealth from subclasses should be at old infiltrator levels. Good, but not so good master scan won't spot you on a regular basis.

That said, I really want to see a stealth mastery subclass.

It is worth karma and something as cool as magicker subguilds in my opinion.

I think mastery subguilds in general need some tweeks but its a good idea overall that brings flavor to the game. 

[Patuk]

I don't have a huge opinion on master subclasses, but by God, please just keep every mundane subclass at 0 karma from here on out. Let us karma nerds show off with fancy races and magick, but do at least leave one area of the game open for all to have full potential. I cannot stress enough how strongly I feel that some level of parity for newer people is necessary in my book.

[Delirium]

please just keep every mundane subclass at 0 karma from here on out. Let us karma nerds show off with fancy races and magick, but do at least leave one area of the game open for all to have full potential. I cannot stress enough how strongly I feel that some level of parity for newer people is necessary in my book.

Agreed. I can see a couple exceptions for extremely powerful combos but they should only cost 1 karma and not spend it (like ex subs work now).

[Dresan]

Agreed. I can see a couple exceptions for extremely powerful combos but they should only cost 1 karma and not spend it (like ex subs work now).

I want to see more powerful combos. I lean towards karma options since I assume they would be stronger.

However, i do believe the karma should be consumed upon choosing it.

The game should really only allow karma regen based time played actively in game to avoid people choosing to stop playing, just to trying to select powerful combinations over and over again. 

[Lotion]

A few thoughts:

-Make certain sub guilds only available with certain class choices or through karma spends. Make certain combos reachable only through special application (that's what it's there for, right?)

specapps are a highly limited resource and spending it to play a mundane with a slightly different skill configuration would have to provide an absurd amount of utility if the goal is to complete with playing a race/gick at karma level n+1

[Patuk]

Agreed. I can see a couple exceptions for extremely powerful combos but they should only cost 1 karma and not spend it (like ex subs work now).

I want to see more powerful combos. I lean towards karma options since I assume they would be stronger.

However, i do believe the karma should be consumed upon choosing it.

The game should really only allow karma regen based time played actively in game to avoid people choosing to stop playing, just to trying to select powerful combinations over and over again.

If you let karma timers only tick away while actively playing, the people who pause their play are just going to not play.

Genuinely, the degree to which people feel eager to punish each other for wanting to play makes me sad. Please don't. And, again, please leave all mundane subclasses at 0 karma.

[Brytta Léofa]

If you let karma timers only tick away while actively playing, the people who pause their play are just going to not play.

[Lotion]

If you let karma timers only tick away while actively playing, the people who pause their play are just going to not play.

Or worse, they will literally just app low quality 0k characters for the purpose of idling to regenerate karma.

[Delirium]

Re-reading the original post, it looks as if those who end up with a subguild that is deprecated will be given an opportunity to adjust, so my concerns there are moot. I'm still worried about the flavor/skills of a subguild that could have been baked into the character's personality changing and causing awkward breaches in continuity, but if you would literally have to re-set the entire character and not just their subguild, that explains why it would be too much work. In that case I would suggest working with the characters who are affected on a case by case basis and being willing to compromise with them.

Don't wrap yourself up too much in hard red tape rules, because that's a great way to frustrate both sides.

As for actual suggestions on the subguilds themselves, as mentioned in another post, I simply do not have time to go through them blow by blow, and it would probably be best submitted bullet point style either here or in a request.

I think most of Mansa's suggestions are solid. I have a few quibbles here and there.

Hopefully this is something being considered carefully and we'll all have time to gather our thoughts and submit ideas.

[Brokkr]

Re-reading the original post, it looks as if those who end up with a subguild that is deprecated will be given an opportunity to adjust, so my concerns there are moot. I'm still worried about the flavor/skills of a subguild that could have been baked into the character's personality changing and causing awkward breaches in continuity,

If you are currently a Fighter/Outdoorsman and this change happens, you would still be Fighter/Outdoorsman.  You you have exactly the same skills in the Outdoorsman subguild that you currently have.  There would be zero change for your character.  As mentioned before, you would simply not be able to choose Outdoorsman in character generation.  The subclass would still exist in the code.

If you are currently a Fighter/Hunter and this change happens, you would still be a Fighter/Hunter.  Your existing skills from Hunter would remain the same, except they would be able to raise to higher levels.  There would be extra skills added to the Hunter subclass, so you could get those added to your character.

I was careful with the zero karma skills to -not- remove any skills, except for one case that is sort of special (it is really just a boost to starting level of a hidden skill).  Which is why here and there some of them have some funky skills, like Archer having featherworking.  Everything would be additive.

[Delirium]

My concern is with the subclasses that might get depreciated due to genuine suckage (there are a few which are evidently going away entirely, or at least might be). Are they going to be given the skills of whatever subclass the depreciated one gets combined with-- or to the closest match to that depreciated subclass-- or will they be stuck with what they have?

My impression was that they'd be transferred and get the new skills, which removed my concerns.

As long as the changes are additive, players won't feel screwed over. They can chalk it up to life experience.

If the changes are subtractive, and/or they're left with a deprecated subguild that sucks, those players will feel screwed.

[Brokkr]

At least when I look over the list of Extended Subs that would not continue, I don't see those sorts of subclasses.  Sure, there may be a skill or two difference, but there isn't the heavy suckage of current Roughrider, Wastelander or Master Chef.  All of which are due to be upgraded, not deprecated.

[Delirium]

I'm glad most of the changes are additive, but I'd still argue that in some cases the suggested subguilds definitely seem to be changing in theme and feel, though, or remain confusingly limited (see: roughrider). Master ride/charge is NOT going to make people choose roughrider. Jman direction sense and wilderness food forage would, and both make perfect sense in keeping with the theme of the subclass.

Some players (I suspect most) would rather have more utility, even if they're not great at it (i.e., people in this thread and others saying "shit I'd take apprentice skinning over not at all" -- because it's hilariously difficult to get even just meat off things you kill without having skinning-- hell, I'd take NOVICE skinning over not at all) rather than being The Best At Everything. I'm most certainly one of those.

That still leaves room for those who have mastery in those areas-- and in fact, they are often needed and desirable and wanted-- but it does mean that those who only have middling ability can still function, if poorly, without them.

One of the best ways to grow the playerbase is to make sure players don't feel useless and bored.

[Bogre]

Outdoorsman losing hide and Cutpurse loosing sap do feel kinda sad though.

[X-D]

I sort of do not have a problem with outdoorsman losing hide, or sneak for that matter, Assuming two things though.

1: Move skinning back to master, Move Scan to master. And give them wilderness quit.
2: Make a sub that is for the stealthy side of outdoors.

Same on cutpurse, I see no reason it should have had sap anyway, take it out, improve the "cutpurse" Skills and put sap somewhere else.

[Brokkr]

I mean, they won't.  They just will not be options in chargen anymore.

This is about what to ADD to Hunter and Thief more than it is about what gets removed from Outdoorsman/Cutpurse.  Sneak was put on Hunter because you can use it to....hunt NPCs with.  You don't need the hide piece to do that.

[X-D]

Hunter needs scan at past advanced then.

[Brisket]

Re-reading the original post, it looks as if those who end up with a subguild that is deprecated will be given an opportunity to adjust, so my concerns there are moot. I'm still worried about the flavor/skills of a subguild that could have been baked into the character's personality changing and causing awkward breaches in continuity,

If you are currently a Fighter/Outdoorsman and this change happens, you would still be Fighter/Outdoorsman.  You you have exactly the same skills in the Outdoorsman subguild that you currently have.  There would be zero change for your character.  As mentioned before, you would simply not be able to choose Outdoorsman in character generation.  The subclass would still exist in the code.

If you are currently a Fighter/Hunter and this change happens, you would still be a Fighter/Hunter.  Your existing skills from Hunter would remain the same, except they would be able to raise to higher levels.  There would be extra skills added to the Hunter subclass, so you could get those added to your character.

I was careful with the zero karma skills to -not- remove any skills, except for one case that is sort of special (it is really just a boost to starting level of a hidden skill).  Which is why here and there some of them have some funky skills, like Archer having featherworking.  Everything would be additive.

So if your class is part of the classes that get combined (Hunter/Outdoorsman) but NOT the one that keeps its name, you don't get the bonus skills?  That hardly seems fair.  If you're adding ride to the subguild, it can't be that onerous to fix it for the 5-10 people that it might affect.

[mansa]

...
So if your class is part of the classes that get combined (Hunter/Outdoorsman) but NOT the one that keeps its name, you don't get the bonus skills?  That hardly seems fair.  If you're adding ride to the subguild, it can't be that onerous to fix it for the 5-10 people that it might affect.

Classes aren't being "combined", so to speak.

The suggested change is to be:
Outdoorsman is being retired and you can never pick it again.
Existing players who have Outdoorsman won't have any of their skills changed.

Existing players who have Hunter will have their skill cap "increased" and may get additional skills.

[Brisket]

...
So if your class is part of the classes that get combined (Hunter/Outdoorsman) but NOT the one that keeps its name, you don't get the bonus skills?  That hardly seems fair.  If you're adding ride to the subguild, it can't be that onerous to fix it for the 5-10 people that it might affect.

Classes aren't being "combined", so to speak.

The suggested change is to be:
Outdoorsman is being retired and you can never pick it again.
Existing players who have Outdoorsman won't have any of their skills changed.

Existing players who have Hunter will have their skill cap "increased" and may get additional skills.

That's the same thing, you're just quibbling with words.  Those who chose Outdoorsman get screwed out of ride, those who chose Hunter luck into extra skills.