Lumberjack Changes Questions

[mansa]

There are lumberjack changes listed here:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,57995.0.html

I have some questions.

#1 - "use axe tree" in specific rooms with no trees will be officially disabled?

[Halaster]

#1 - "use axe tree" in specific rooms with no trees will be officially disabled?

Correct

[mansa]

Will this be available for all tree types?

(I made a list)

BAOBAB
AGAFARI
CUNYATI
CYLINI
CYNIPRI
JALLAL
LANTURIN
MAAR
PYMLITHE
STEMWOOD
STYRAX
THORNWOOD
WYLRITH
YYPR

[Ath]

Will this be available for all tree types?

(I made a list)

BAOBAB
AGAFARI
CUNYATI
CYLINI
CYNIPRI
JALLAL
LANTURIN
MAAR
PYMLITHE
STEMWOOD
STYRAX
THORNWOOD
WYLRITH
YYPR

Most trees.  Styrax for example won't change as it has it's own method of being gathered.  We've also found that helpfiles need to be added for trees that don't have them, and also trees that have been virtual for so long, we need to figure out where exactly they are found and rarities.  It's going to take time, but we have a batch of 5 trees first coming out (3 at first, 2 later), the another phase will add more.

This will take time, but the main goal is to get trees that are commonly chopped and used available first, then add more in as we go.

[Halaster]

Will this be available for all tree types?

Most.  I think a couple of those in your list aren't currently reflected beyond a helpfile?  Though we made add some that you can't currently find the in the world.  The first wave with the initial rollout is going to be five trees (agafari, baobab, cylini, cynipri, pymlithe), quickly followed by more.

[Blink]

Will one still be able to get branches with various other methods or will chopping down a tree become the only way to acquire them?

[Halaster]

Will one still be able to get branches with various other methods or will chopping down a tree become the only way to acquire them?

Yes, you'll still be able to gather branches with all the same various other methods.

[cali]

Good change.  I didn't like being in a baobab grove unable to get baobab logs or an agafari grove and only chopping baobab etc.

[Delirium]

How will this affect foraging for branches and kindling?

[Ath]

How will this affect foraging for branches and kindling?

No change.

[Delirium]

It'd be neat to see foraging tables updated for various groves but I imagine that's currently outside scope.

[Ath]

It'd be neat to see foraging tables updated for various groves but I imagine that's currently outside scope.

Yeah, a bit out of scope, but that isn't impossible, but just a lot of manual work to do something like that.

[Riev]

Zone-based vs coordinate based, I am definitely behind zone-based.

You can find these in the Pah. Better search the whole Pah, not just the one room that has them.

It increases exploration, time in game, and decreases "camping" certain spots (both as raiders and as wastelanders) trying to track down particular things.

I've always wondered what the difference in woods was, and why everything wasn't just made out of baobab and agafari. Now maybe someone will find out!

[Fredd]

How will this affect foraging for branches and kindling?

No change.

Does it have to be this way? let's say got the lumberjack skill, and I wanted to trim all the branches and save them for arrows, that might be better the typing "forage wood" for an hour irl, if I'm a good lumberjack and shitty grebber.

Maybe make it one of those lumberjacking recipes, and have it give less, say... Bark or what-have-you.

[Riev]

I believe what was mentioned is that when you knock down a tree, it will have bark/branches on the object now in the room, so you can pull branches that way.

You just CAN ALSO forage for them, with no changes to that process.

[Halaster]

I believe what was mentioned is that when you knock down a tree, it will have bark/branches on the object now in the room, so you can pull branches that way.

You just CAN ALSO forage for them, with no changes to that process.

Yeah, this.

If anything, this process is going to mean more branches are possible.  You'll still be able to forage 'til your heart's content.  But also, there'll be more tree objects in the world many of which will have branches you can pull/pick off them.  Also, some of the 'recipes' for working on the fallen tree's will include branches.

[Tisiphone]

I would love to see some ability to harvest branches and other goods from the tree with lumberjacking tools and expertise, both without actually cutting down the tree and after cutting down the tree.

As I see it, there are various gathering and tree exploitation workflows that could be supported. Some already are, some are proposed in the changes, and some might not be.

• Wandering around looking for windfall branches, bark, twigs, and leaves on the ground.
• Finding a live tree and, without extensive tools, pulling off dead branches, twigs, leaves, and bark.
• Finding a live tree and, using special tools, harvesting more branches, bark, twigs, leaves (even sap?) than would otherwise be possible.
• Cutting down a tree and cutting it into logs/planks/firewood/whatever.
• As part of preparing a downed tree to be useful (#3), lopping off branches, crown, and splitting into appropriate log lengths. This should not be optional and should leave a lot of detritus, though not necessarily a lot of game-useful detritus. Bark, leaves, and branches aren't necessarily all 'a strip of so-and-so bark', 'a long agafari branch', and 'a baobab leaf'; these items imply a kind of prime condition that the virtual ones may not meet.
• Steps 2-5, but a dead (i.e. already fallen) tree in sufficiently good condition instead. Mostly, this simply entails less work, since you don't have to cut it down first, but also yields much less.

Any advance in support of these workflows is great for lumberjacks and makes me happy, whether it completes the list as I see it or not. I'm not the kid in the candy store who, given one piece of candy, cries about not getting another.

(Aside, but if you manage to add in coppicing and pollarding, I'll love you forever.)

[Alesan]

...
Steps 2-5, but a dead (i.e. already fallen) tree in sufficiently good condition instead. Mostly, this simply entails less work, since you don't have to cut it down first, but also yields much less.
...

I like this a lot. If you could forage up a freshly-dead tree in a grove type room, and then treat that as a lumberjacked tree, that would be great. I feel like it should work like stone deposits.

[Fredd]

I believe what was mentioned is that when you knock down a tree, it will have bark/branches on the object now in the room, so you can pull branches that way.

You just CAN ALSO forage for them, with no changes to that process.

Yeah, this.

If anything, this process is going to mean more branches are possible.  You'll still be able to forage 'til your heart's content.  But also, there'll be more tree objects in the world many of which will have branches you can pull/pick off them.  Also, some of the 'recipes' for working on the fallen tree's will include branches.

Nice, good change then.

edit: This is going to have a decent sized impact on the in-game economy. But I think it will be for the better.

[Ath]

I believe what was mentioned is that when you knock down a tree, it will have bark/branches on the object now in the room, so you can pull branches that way.

You just CAN ALSO forage for them, with no changes to that process.

Yeah, this.

If anything, this process is going to mean more branches are possible.  You'll still be able to forage 'til your heart's content.  But also, there'll be more tree objects in the world many of which will have branches you can pull/pick off them.  Also, some of the 'recipes' for working on the fallen tree's will include branches.

Nice, good change then.

edit: This is going to have a decent sized impact on the in-game economy. But I think it will be for the better.

Everyone already stocks up on branches and all that, so I don't think it will have a huge impact.  The nice thing is it isn't hard for us to tweak this as we go, add or take away as needed.  The hardest part is getting all the moving parts put together and getting a baseline plan of it all.

[Fredd]

I will go ahead and be the first to say it.

This does sound like people will end up standing in a forest, and be unable to find a tree.

[Tisiphone]

This does sound like people will end up standing in a forest, and be unable to find a tree suitable for cutting down.

FTFY. But yes, the echoes or descriptions involved should reflect that the objects are spawned by candidate criteria, not just simple existence.

[Fredd]

This does sound like people will end up standing in a forest, and be unable to find a tree suitable for cutting down.

FTFY. But yes, the echoes or descriptions involved should reflect that the objects are spawned by candidate criteria, not just simple existence.

So i was cooking and i thought about this...

What if the lumberjacking skill could be used somehting like the forage skill to find suitable trees in the forest. it would reveal one that could be cut.  And if the area has been over harvested, return an echo that says you need to let the trees in the area grow a bit more?

This would mean staff wouldn't need to put in individual trees, unless that tree is rare enough to warrant it. Which might help that side of things too. And it makes it all feel a bit more immersive imho.

[cali]

As of now there is a shit ton of tree objects. If you can't find a tree then you aren't even trying.

[lostinspace]

Probably out of scope, but would be cool if there was a Floristry craft that pruned a branch cutting from a recently felled tree that could be grown into another tree when planted elsewhere.

Edit: Or really anything with Floristry. If cooking gives back minimum results, and lumberjack gives back best results, maybe floristry could give back intermediate results, or just provide different results.

Example: Cut down a maar tree.
Cooking: Can get a single log and maybe a couple branches and 2 globs of sap.
Lumberjacking: Three logs, few branches, and 2 globs of sap.
Floristry: Single log, couple branches, 5 globs of sap.

[Ath]

What if the lumberjacking skill could be used somehting like the forage skill to find suitable trees in the forest. it would reveal one that could be cut.  And if the area has been over harvested, return an echo that says you need to let the trees in the area grow a bit more?

This would mean staff wouldn't need to put in individual trees, unless that tree is rare enough to warrant it. Which might help that side of things too. And it makes it all feel a bit more immersive imho.

So what is awesome here, we discussed this but it still lends to players just sitting in one room, foraging till they get what they want, then chopping it down.  I get your point, but the idea here is that you are looking of trees.  Trees will be visible from multiple rooms away depend on size.  Also if we get complaints that we cannot find agafari or baobab that easily, it's VERY easy for us to tweak what we're doing to spawn more.

What I really like about this system we're using, the system will restore and maintain.  Which will let us simulate over foresting in a way because if you chop trees down in your area, others will spawn in different places.  So over time, if an area is utilized too much, it will simulate over harvesting.  Now, this is going to be rare with the common trees, but more applicable for the rarer trees.  Sadly though this only lasts till reboot though.

As of now there is a shit ton of tree objects. If you can't find a tree then you aren't even trying.

And we've yet to actually put everything in that will be in the first batch AND tweak existing numbers.

Probably out of scope, but would be cool if there was a Floristry craft that pruned a branch cutting from a recently felled tree that could be grown into another tree when planted elsewhere.

Neat idea to be honest, but this is something we could potentially support via staff actions.  Put in a report and see?  Cannot promise, but yeah... something like this would be significant to code and would be a separate project.

[lostinspace]

One other idea. Can chopping weapon skill impact the skill-check to cut down a tree?

1. Lumberjacking skill - largest impact
2. Strength - medium impact
3. Chopping weapon skill - small impact
3. A small bit of random luck - small impact

[mansa]

Now that the first five trees have been implemented, is it working as designed?

[Halaster]

Now that the first five trees have been implemented, is it working as designed?

Yeah, we haven't received all that much feedback, so either no one is playing lumberjacks or most people are "fine" with the new system.  We did make the basic cooking crafts to be a bit easier based on one person's feedback.  I did play an npc who went with some PC's to gather some logs and I was pleased with the way it went.