Emotes and emotions

[crymerci]

Ok, as a disclaimer, I am not picking on ShaLeah.

emote staring at ~toy with growing suspicion and anger

I think this has been discussed here before, but I don't recall how it turned out.

What do you all think about emotes like the above.  Is it ok to tell people what that expression on your face means, or should you just squint and scowl?  There are times when just saying what emotion your character is expressing is a lot simpler than trying to figure out a) what their expression is and b) how to accurately describe that expression.  

Is it more realistic to have someone unsure of what emotion you are expressing, or is it more unrealistic to make them automagickally read your expression and body language?

[sacac]

Well.. Men already try (Failing sometimes) to understand what women (do with subtle body language.) So I picked Show. Cuz I'm that kinda person.

[spawnloser]

The example you listed, crymerci, I would disagree with slightly...however, similarly, I would have no problem with...

emote stares at ~toy, eyes slowly narrowing suspiciously and a angry frown spreading across ^me features.

It all depends, I think, on how you do it.

[Anonymous]

I think suspicious, dubious, curious, angry, frustrated, frightened, saddened, joyful, lusty, confused, wary, disapproving, interested, concentrated, distracted, flabbergasted, puzzled, questioning, leery, pleased, satisfied, disappointed, overwhelmed, shocked, apprehensive and pissed expressions, tones of voice or glances are all perfectly well within the reaches of the muscles on the face to display.

It's not like people are saying:

emo cries out, angry at %man words.
emo weeps out of a broken heart for the man that she loved.
emo looks suspiciously at the pouch of coins, knowing elves can't be trusted.

If I can picture someone making a face to convey the emotion without words, and my PC is sufficiently expressive, I'll emote it.

EDIT: I'd have no trouble with Sha's emote because I can easily picture it in my mind.  I can see the PC's expressions and what they convey without the PC having to use words.

[ShaLeah]

It's all dependant not on how you do it, but whether or not your character is an expressive kind of person/elf/giant/mul/dwarf/etc/.

There are people out there that wear their hearts/emotions on their facial expressions, there are also people out there who can fake it well enough to be believed.  Not that my characters would do such a thing.    :twisted:

[Bestatte]

I think there's a line that should be drawn, but unfortunately it's a very fuzzy line.

To play devil's advocate:

Susie glowers angrily at you.

How far a reach is that, to this?

Susie is angry at you.

Personally I have no problem with the first example.  It seems a reasonable facial expression, as was mentioned previously. I think that you -could- go further with it, and describe what an "angry glower" looks like if you wanted, but I don't think it's necessary.

As long as you don't tell me how you feel, but focus instead on how you look like you feel, I'm fine with it.

[Anonymous]

To play devil's advocate:

Susie glowers angrily at you.

How far a reach is that, to this?

Susie is angry at you.

It's a pretty far reach from an angry expression to 'emote is angry at you' because Susie could be faking.  

Later Susie tells you over the way that the joke you told Lord Borfale about how noble's know the taste of kank semen was *totally* funny, but really out of place, so she had to act angry to save her own butt.

Oh, and Susie is sorry to hear you are going into the arena to face your death tomorrow.

[Wintermute]

Call me a purist, but I'm of the school that emotes should be visually descriptive and no more.

There are good reasons for this - chiefly, misinterpretation of expression.  This happens in real life.  The only reason I can see for eliminating it by using emotes like 'growing suspicion and anger' would be for OOC convenience/playability - but if you aren't willing to spend the time to depict your character's expression, why are you even bothering?  Is it so hard to emote 'brow knitting' or 'jaw clenching' instead?  I have no problem with people wearing their hearts on their sleeves - but I want to see it, not be told exactly what's happening in their heads.  That's the sole domain of player and the immortals, not everyone else.

[ShaLeah]

but I want to see it, not be told exactly what's happening in their heads.  That's the sole domain of player and the immortals, not everyone else.

I disagree.  It is up to me how to drive my character.   If I want it known specifically what she or he is showing at the moment, be it anger, annoyance, joy or boredom,  it is up to me as she who drives the PC.  I am all for stoic, steely characters which are hard to read, but when I am driving a PC I will show what I feel like showing, what I want the other person to know, or not.  Just because people gesture animatedly or grunt or snarl or grin lasciviously does not mean you are being shown

exactly what's happening in their heads.

Again, it depends on the character.  Not knowing what is truly going on is one of the perks.
think Why the fuck is he laughing like that? We just killed his best friend.
I'm all for appearances.  Be they true or not.  

[Anonymous]

A 'suspicious glance' can be faked and in no way represents knowing what is going on in someone's head.

I've had hidden magickers that have given all sorts of nasty looks to gemmed folks while having no real qualms with them whatsoever.

[chang]

Totally with Wintermute on this one.

The other day I saw:
The soandso man is clearly shocked!

And so was I!  At least my player was...

[Armaddict]

Sorry, basic rule of descriptive writing.

Show not Tell.

[Wintermute]

I am all for stoic, steely characters which are hard to read, but when I am driving a PC I will show what I feel like showing, what I want the other person to know, or not.

I have absolutely nothing against characters displaying emotion. I sure as hell hope they do if it's in-character to do so. I just as a player, don't want to be literally told that emotion in a emote.

But to address the real point - why is it up to you to bypass other characters' cognitive processes? To me, this is related to, if not exactly like, making someone else physically do something in an emote. How do you know my character wouldn't misinterpret that wink in a way you didn't intend?  Who are you to say that he/she/it has to interpret it a specific way?

Just because people gesture animatedly or grunt or snarl or grin lasciviously does not mean you are being shown
exactly what's happening in their heads.

This is exactly what I'm advocating.  :wink:

[Wintermute]

You know, I think I have button issues.  (sorry I hit quote by mistake here)

[Anonymous]

But to address the real point - why is it up to you to bypass other characters' cognitive processes?

Because I like adjectives better than long drawn out emotes detailing the precise way the wrinkles in my characters face denote the muscles contracting in a certain direction forming a specific shape out of his lips or leaving his brows at a certain angle.

To me:

emote is suspicious.

is bad.

emote passes a suspicious glance about himself.

Is good.  A suspicious glance is a type of glance, it's not a psychic conveyance of the emoters true feelings.

[creeper386]

So everyone that is for a show not tell is basically saying adverbs that come from a base word of some sort of emotion doesn't have any place in writing?

Sometimes you DO want to convey acrossed what is going on, ON YOUR CHARACTERS FACE.

Perhaps other words that cut down on describing what happens by cutting to the chase? No more wincing. You must describe it.

Angrily, anxiously, suspisciously, they are there to describe an action. If my character is obviously glaring about I could toss in "angrily looks about" and it TELLS WHAT IS GOING ON. It doesn't tell whats going on in his head. It's a description of the physical action. He looks angry. Sure it can still be open to interpetation if someone wants to play it that way. Nothing is being forced on their character to assume that my character is angry, nor is it being forced on them that they have to know the look is an angry look, but he looks angry non the less. I'm not going to spend the time to type out a two-four line emote about his clenched jaw, squinted eyes, tightened muscle restraining his gaze to a slow sweeping scan of the room.

If I want it come acrossed as the look seems angry but could be easiely interpeted else ways, I'd probably use a longer emote or just describe a few of the above things.

Fact is, may cut down on massive describing, but adverbs have a place in writing, even ones who's base word is an emotion.

[Seeker]

I like to use 'lawyer talk' to try and solve this problem when I can.

the <blankity-blank lass> giggles and settles back unto her over-stuffed pillow apparently satisfied.

Seemingly unconcerned, <the colory-eyed, colory-haired templar> smoothly steps over the slowing congealing pile of spilt head-goo on ^<the colory-eyed, colory-haired templar> way to the buffet line.

Squawking loudly and flapping her naked arms at her sides, <the height-descriptor, shape-descriptor crone> circles about the tavern pecking at unsuspecting patrons, as if she thought they were tasty morsels.

Is this a bad thing?  Some people seem to think it is, but not me.


Seeker

[X-D]

I go for the telling what the expression is, why, it is easier to type and will not be miss-read by the other players.

Now, I'm saying players because that is who the emote is aimed at, and it is not a power emote You as the player of the char seeing the emot gets to decide what your char actually sees, it does not matter is I emote narrows his eyes and frowns or if I emote gives you a mildly angry look.

Now, I am not a real fan of the style seeker spoke of, as they tend to feel like power emotes to me, but I'm not going to complain much about that style, other then maybe that it also seems like the person emoting it is trying to remind everyone that the emote is subject to interpretation, which is annoying.

There are times though when I will do the descriptive type, though not often and only if it is a specialy nice one.

Like when a particular char a while back who's long time wife had been killed accosted my byn dwarf in the nak bazarr, my dwarf had the gall to make a rather rude statement and the response almost made it so I could not type, The so-and-so man's eyes bulge as his face turns red as he sputters (or something like that) .

[Supreme Allah]

As a rule, I tend to stick with Wintermute's school of thought. I sometimes deviate, but never to the point of the example given.

I'd rather not tell you openly that my character was angry and suspicious. It seems rather intrusive to me - like I'm forcing that interpretation upon others.