Avoid!

[JollyGreenGiant]

I mentioned some thoughts about an "avoid" skill in another post, and thought I'd move it to its own thread here.

First, the issue at stake.  There seems to be a consensus that combat classes have a large advantage against magickers.  As far as I can tell, this issue comes largely down to one of timing.  Attacking or using a combat skill such as kick on someone has an immediate result, followed by a delay.  Casting on someone results in a delay before the effect sets in.  Furthermore, a spellcaster can't have anything wielded while casting.

Rather than allowing casters to cast while holding or wielding, or changing things around on the combat classes which might result in other difficulties, I propose a simple skill called "avoid", which would be avaiable to the less-combative classes, such as mages and merchants.  I have a pretty good idea of what I think the skill should do, but I thought I'd open up a few points for discussion and see what everyone else thought.  The general idea behind avoid is simple - you're doing everything in your power to avoid getting hit by someone attacking you.  Codewise, the goal is to give the less-combative classes some time to think or act against someone who doesn't have to worry as much about timing.

Avoid should have at least the following effects:
The person loses all attacks.  You're not trying to hit someone here, just avoid being hit.
For hit/damage purposes, the person is treated as though they are wielding a weapon, even if they are completely unarmed.
A bonus to defense.
Last for a reasonable amount of time.  You can avoid a guy hacking at you with a sword, but only for so long.  The length of time you could avoid someone would improve with use.

Avoid should have at least the following requirements:
The person should not be holding/wielding anything.
Drawing a weapon, using a combat command such as kick, or fleeing, interrupts the skill.  The skill shouldn't prevent the person from doing anything they could normally do while in combat, but if the person wants to go ahead and engage, the bonuses should go away.

That covers the basics.  Here are some other things I thought of that might add to the skill, but may or may not be good, or might make it too powerful/useless.
Make the command like a "switch".  You could put "avoid on" and then it would last until someone attacked you, and then used up your avoid timer, or until you held/wielded, used a combat command, etc.
Add a defensive bonus against kick, bash, throw, and shoot, but only from the same room.
Make it harder to flee while avoiding.
Make it easier to flee while avoiding.
Reduce damage.
Increase damage.
Reduce damage, but don't add a defensive bonus.
Treat "sitting" characters as though they were standing.  A guy on the ground can still roll away pretty fast if all he's trying to do is get away.

Anyone have any thoughts?

[Ueda]

There seems to be a consensus that combat classes have a large advantage against magickers.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Well think this idea would make a -experienced mage- almost invincible, depending on how the code was. I have expressed this before but since there seems to be a consensus that the combat class has a large advantage, I'll say it again.

Magikers have an equal advantage. All that matters is who gets the first code in. That simple. Unless your going up against several PC's then thats a hole different story.

[Bestatte]

There seems to be a consensus that combat classes have a large advantage against magickers.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Well think this idea would make a -experienced mage- almost invincible, depending on how the code was. I have expressed this before but since there seems to be a consensus that the combat class has a large advantage, I'll say it again.

Magikers have an equal advantage. All that matters is who gets the first code in. That simple. Unless your going up against several PC's then thats a hole different story.

If all that matters is who gets the first coded attack in, then it will always be the one who is NOT using magic. Casting spells comes with a pre-cast delay. The "kill" code does not. So unless the newbie blade-user pauses while the mage murmurs his phrase of magic, the mage is gonna get hit first. That's how the code operates.

[JollyGreenGiant]

If all that matters is who gets the first coded attack in, then it will always be the one who is NOT using magic. Casting spells comes with a pre-cast delay. The "kill" code does not. So unless the newbie blade-user pauses while the mage murmurs his phrase of magic, the mage is gonna get hit first. That's how the code operates.

This states the nature of the problem perfectly, and why I think there is a need for the avoid command.

[Tamarin]

If all that matters is who gets the first coded attack in, then it will always be the one who is NOT using magic. Casting spells comes with a pre-cast delay. The "kill" code does not. So unless the newbie blade-user pauses while the mage murmurs his phrase of magic, the mage is gonna get hit first. That's how the code operates.

This states the nature of the problem perfectly, and why I think there is a need for the avoid command.

Alright....so while trying to concentrate, the magiker is running around like a chicken, trying to avoid hits, and still able to pull off the spell, which I imagine needs a good deal of concentration....?

[Ueda]

This states the nature of the problem perfectly, and why I think there is a need for the avoid command.

We've went over this before, it all depends on how you play your magiker.

I suggest you read some of this- http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5274

[X-D]

Gee, that was surely helpful Ueda, considering JGG has at least one post on that thread, (page 5) I'm sure he knows of the thread, matter of fact, he stated in his first post of this thread that he had stated the idea in another thread but wanted to start a thread for the idea itself.

I suggest you read the posts in a thread before replying to them.


Me, I think avoid is a nice idea and in no way over powered, And Ueda, you also have not considered that JGG suggested it be given to merchant class too, since they don't even have spells to fall back on.

Otherwise I would just suggest that magickers have delay after affect, but it would be a good skill for other classes also.

[FarFromPoopen]

Otherwise I would just suggest that magickers have delay after affect, but it would be a good skill for other classes also.

Well, I don't think that would be good RPly, since that would mean as soon as they think of casting the spell, it flies(or doesn't) before they have time to speak the words/use the reagents or whatever is going on.  So rply, there HAS to be a delay after the cast command(Imho) But unless you charge someone, doesn't it take a moment to move it correctly, and still have the stance a fighter would go for to fight?  So why not have a delay before the kill command is executed.  Same with kick, don't you have to wait for an opening, you can't just kick while your in mid swing can you?

[X-D]

Changing the other skills have a much larger affect on the game, For one, it's already bad enough that many, if not all npc/mobs have little or no delay on combat skills and other things, also, it does not allow for a reaction style combat in pvp.

And so, if delay after affect is not viable and delay before on combat skills also is not viable, and reflex magic sounds over powered and troublesome to code and play, and allowing magickers to cast while wielding makes them completly inbalanced, the an avoid skill seems like a viable option, it is not offense based, it does not allow attacks and simply gives the player of a class that simply can't fight for shit a bit of room to think before being KO'd.

[JollyGreenGiant]

The point of this thread is to discuss a proposed skill.  There is already a discussion of magickers vs. warriors in another thread.  That isn't this thread.  Furthermore, if you read that thread, or bother to look at the poll, the consensus is that magickers need some help.  That means that this statement

We've went over this before, it all depends on how you play your magiker.

is both irrelevant to this discussion and a minority opinion (at least of the people who voted in the poll, which if we assume is a random cross-section of the playing population, has enough votes to correctly represent the feelings of the entire playing population.)

I admit to some annoyance that the first few posts here have nothing to do with the proposed skill addition.  If you want to comment on the magicker vs. fighter issue, there's a whole other thread for that.  This thread is meant for comments on the "avoid" skill idea.  If your comment is "I don't think we need the skill," I have no problem with that.  But please stay on the topic.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Changing the other skills have a much larger affect on the game, For one, it's already bad enough that many, if not all npc/mobs have little or no delay on combat skills and other things, also, it does not allow for a reaction style combat in pvp.

And so, if delay after affect is not viable and delay before on combat skills also is not viable, and reflex magic sounds over powered and troublesome to code and play, and allowing magickers to cast while wielding makes them completly inbalanced, the an avoid skill seems like a viable option, it is not offense based, it does not allow attacks and simply gives the player of a class that simply can't fight for shit a bit of room to think before being KO'd.

This is the exact thought process that brought me to the idea of an avoid skill.

[creeper386]

One, I think something like the avoid skill would be VERY useful for just about anyone. Not just non-combative classes. Although over all, I don't see how it could be a skill. If need be I could probably avoid some fucker for ALONG time fairly easiely if he's chasing me about with a knife or sword.

But in comes playability. I say it'd be a skill and work something like this. There isn't a "time-limit" but it can be toggled on or off. Due to skill, stats whatever other things that could have an effect, a character has a chance to avoid attacks at the sacrifice of attacking someone.

Honestly, I don't think this should be allowed to give magickers time to cast spells or an assassin to set up some uber sneaky attack or anything. It'd deal with avoiding an attack most likely with the purpose of not harming the person attacking you, or for getting away.

Things such of anything that makes your hard to see rather magick or hide skills would probably make it easier. If you only attack a shadow/blur it's probably be harder to hit them if they were avoiding you, then someone you can see clearly.

One main problem I see with the skill. It'd make warriors alot less the power houses they are. So I could see some sort of timer relevent, but I'd base it more on endurance with a skill bonus, and I'd make the timer fairly lengthy. I'd also probably include reach, skill and speed of the attacker as well as multiple attackers. I'd make doing just about anything toggle it off, sitting down, walking about and such. Can't toggle it back on unless your standing to make it not too powerful. So basically you'd have to be alert to keep it doing any good.

Hmph, so basically I'm saying make it versatile enough to make it useful but limited enough to not be a save all, and couldn't be used constantly in every day life without a huge change.

It'd be nice, as it's always a bother to have a quick person and get slaughtered because someone just walks in and attacks. May be a delay on kill but when someone walks in and just types kill you don't see anything untill they start hacking into. Also it's hard to beleive a merchant would stand there and watch as some creature charges at him in the desert.

[Rindan]

It is an interesting idea, but to be honest, I don't really like it.  If a bad ass warrior decides it is time for someone with no skill in combat to die, I really think they should have the common curtsy to die.  The fact that a bad ass warrior can walk up to almost anyone in the game and do some horrible damage which nothing but running or a few body guards can stop is a-okay in my book.  It seems silly that a merchant would or magiker with no combat training would have even the slightest of a chance to avoid blows.  Hell, the blows most likely to hit are going to be the first ones when they are still surprised.

While I would like to see magikers be able to defend themselves, this is not the way I want to see it done.  It shouldn't be a magikers great ability to dodge and run that makes him feared.  The fact that your sword might hit nothing but the rock solid skin of a Rukkian, be blinded by a flash from a Krathi, or simply have the sword pass through a Whirian is what should making attacking magikers scary.  I would rather see skilled magikers be so fast at casting that they reflexively respond to assaults in the same way a warrior reflexively defends himself is someone swings.  A warrior might be able to whip his sword around quickly while a magiker might be able to fire of a spell in the blink of an eye.

[Lazloth]

It seems silly that a merchant would or magiker with no combat training would have even the slightest of a chance to avoid blows.

Not to play devil's advocate, but how is it you envision this proposed skill being, uh, "trained" [..if not in 'combat' situations..]?

[X-D]

Well, I see avoid as being a defense bonus while giving up attacking, but I really don't think anybody is talking about a skill that would take somebodies defense from poor to AI, but more like poor to below ave, or, if the skills was advanced from below ave to good, this would not stop a -badass- warrior from still walking in and making them die very quickly. It would not stop a badass ranger from pumping a couple arrows into the head from a couple rooms away, would not stop a good assassins blade.

Also, I think that the current negs you get from 3 or more attackers would apply as normal and even cancel out avoid, avoiding one person while unarmed is one thing, but 2 would be hard and 3, well, again, we say die very quickly.

[Drayab]

I agree with Rindan. Magickers should rely on their magick to save them in a pinch, not bobbing and weaving. I think the reflexive magick idea would be best. Obviously, care would have to be taken to make sure it doesn't unbalance the game.

[Armaddict]

Mages are fine.

I've killed plenty of warrior types with them.  If you can't, you're being too direct.  Learn to run.

[Ueda]

I would rather see skilled magikers be so fast at casting that they reflexively respond to assaults in the same way a warrior reflexively defends himself if someone swings.

I think that would be one of three main reactions two others being.

They could be soo... stunned at someone attacking them they freeze up, and can't remember what that krathed word is that makes... (IC)

Or run their leggs as fast as they can away from (IC).

[creeper386]

It seems silly that a merchant would or magiker with no combat training would have even the slightest of a chance to avoid blows. Hell, the blows most likely to hit are going to be the first ones when they are still surprised.

In my opinion, this skill would have little to do with avoiding blows. More to do with avoiding some big fucker or some massive bug before they ever got to you.

I think it honestly could stop all sort of abuse that warriors use in just walking up and attacking someone. I know in real life if some fucker is stalking after me with a big sword? Am I going to wait for him to get to me? Probably not.

Creeper

[Rindan]

Running away from a big bastard with a sword is reasonable, so how about this.  The avoid command would kick on and work for a few seconds as described.  What it would do is delay combat's starting.  So, if a big warrior and his two big warrior friends enter the tavern, and merchant silly pants knows that they are after him and he can't possibly run past those two big guards at the door, he can type avoid. So, even though big mean warrior shoves right past his body guards, the merchant is activly trying to escape, but escape within the room.  The effect is that even if his body guards fail to protect him, they have a few more seconds to do something before big mean warrior hacks the merchant into two.  Obviously, the merchant will not be able to run while under the effect of avoid.  I wouldn't base avoid on any sort of skill.  I don't think there is a running for your life skill really, and it would seem silly to train.  Just base it purely off stats and luck.  If you are lucky, you get a few extra seconds to scream for help or hope someone saves you.

The effect is that if the warrior's attack truly is by surprise, no avoid skill will kick in and you get the proper pounding you have coming to you.  A warrior should be able to walk up to a merchant and hack his head off if the merchant doesn't realize what is happening.  If the merchant does realize what is happening, he can buy himself a few extra seconds.  Those seconds could be used for giving body guards more time to do something useful, calling for someone to help him, or pleading.  It would be real nice if a warrior typed disengage before combat started if they would not actually attack.  This way some quick pleading might save your life.

[Stroker]

Or how about installing an autoflee feature onto magickers so that whenever someone walks in they flee head over heels in a random direction. Leave it the way it is, damn it. Magickers, defilers, whatever, they can take care of themselves, and if they can't then they were destined to die - come on! This is Armageddon.

[Delirium]

I've posted this before, but perhaps this thread is more appropriate for it. Along the lines of an avoid skill, I'd like to see something like:

change stance [offensive|defensive|autoflee]

change stance offensive - Offensive would be your normal attacking stance, the one we all know and love.

change stance deffensive - Defensive would mean that you do not fight back, and instead, focus soley on dodging and defense. Of course, if you have no weapons, your defense is still going to be pretty crappy.

change stance autoflee - Autoflee would mean that as soon as someone (mob or PC) attacks you, you'll flee self. Of course, that could have its disadvantages (shield wall anyone?), but that's part of the danger of being so reflexively "Ack, someone's attacking me, RUN!"

And no this isn't an original idea of mine by far, I've seen something pretty similar on another system-- and liked it lots, and it seemed to work wonderfully. I've wished in many situations that my character did not automatically fight back.

[Twilight]

I love magickers.  I do not love the idea of this skill.  Each mage class, each non-mage class, has its strengths and weaknesses.  These tend to crystalize in a certain direction as the character progresses in thier skills.  The simple fact is that mages don't need avoid.  What they need is careful planning in order not to be surprised.  Ever.  Or enough luck to always get away.

Warriors need to get close enough to use their weapons.  Rangers need to get far away enough to use their bows.  Assassins need some ribs to stick something between.  Stereotypical, yes, but also somewhat balancing against each other.  Mages can use their spells with planning, they don't need avoid.  Merchants can hire assassins and guards with their tons of sid, they don't need avoid.  Psi's can do whatever psis do, they don't need avoid.  Warriors can beat you over the head when you aren't looking, they don't need avoid.