Storing and Being Considerate to a Clan

[The Gruffalo]

If you join a clan and then store within a RL week or two after, please don't store with the gear you were given, especially if it was loaner gear for your trial or recruitment period. It would be considerate to remember that these things cost in-game money and to put it in your locker so it can be reclaimed and redistributed to the people who join the clan after you and would be able to use it.

I'm also curious to know why people store a character that just joined a clan. Why not leave the clan and continue the character? Was there a reason other than a special application or sponsored role that is the cause? If there is, is there something that can be done to fix whatever the issue was that led to storage?

[Gentleboy]

I know that when I get a role and I need to store asap,

I ask my staffer if I can log on and put my gear someplace first and they usually say yes.

Sometimes, if the gear is mediocre and the rooms are filled, I just store with it. How many waterskins must we have haha.


I will always store with expensive/custom items given specifically for my character. But not clan specific if that makes sense? That's just my own moral code.

Is it appropriate for clan leaders to send in a reimbursement request in this case or those cases that the OP mentioned?

[mansa]

On average, 24 characters are created each week in 2021.
On average, 7 characters are stored each week in 2021.

Players are allowed to retire and store their character for any reason.   Perhaps a PSA like "please don't retire with special items" is needed, but I don't think we (the players) should ask other players why they store -> I think that's left to the storytellers and staff.

[The Gruffalo]

I'm not trying to suggest people should have to justify storing, I'm curious if there are fixable issues related to joining clans that are causing them to store rather than depart the clan and continue their current character.

[tiny rainbow]

https://armageddon.org/help/view/Storage

If you are a member of a clan, please notify the clan staff of your plans to do this, so that a suitable IC reason for your character's departure may be worked out.

Putting a character in storage to go play in another clan or area of the mud. Situations in the past have testified to the fact that this practice breaks the continuity of plotlines and disrupts relationships. In many ways, it cheats the other characters involved in various ways with your character of that interaction, and requires them to play around that vacuum in a way that is not fair to them, particularly if the character is stored without notification.

Is in the help files but I think not everyone (maybe even staff) is aware it says this and it definitely seems like it's not always followed, with characters that just "disappear" for OOC reasons instead of IC reasons never having any IC reason given, to not leave everyone hanging It's meant to be that way, I don't know why it's not followed? I am guessing it's not in the staff guidelines themselves and someone wrote it into the help file, maybe it should be if it's not, I don't know.

I will always store with expensive/custom items given specifically for my character. But not clan specific if that makes sense? That's just my own moral code.

Didn't you do that yourself when a very special knife was given to your Sun Runner 2 years ago out of pure love

[Gentleboy]

I will always store with expensive/custom items given specifically for my character. But not clan specific if that makes sense? That's just my own moral code.

Didn't you do that yourself when a very special knife was given to your Sun Runner 2 years ago out of pure love
[/quote]

I truly do not remember! RIP special knife.

[Brytta Léofa]

I still feel angst for the time I stored with a super cute teapot in my pack. You think I'm being sarcastic but I'm dead serious.

[Greve]

I'm not trying to suggest people should have to justify storing, I'm curious if there are fixable issues related to joining clans that are causing them to store rather than depart the clan and continue their current character.

I think it often has to do with players discovering that there's not enough activity in the clan to keep them interested. It can be very hard to see from the outside if a clan is sufficiently populated or if its members match your playtimes. Then they join, spend a week being bored and alone most of the time, and store.

There's a bit of stigma around leaving a clan IC, especially right after joining it. It's just a weird feeling. Unless your character leaves the area entirely and goes to live somewhere else, you'll be running into those people regularly and then you're that guy who joined and quit again a week later for obviously OOC reasons. It's awkward for everyone. "Uh... I didn't like the stew. Sorry."

When someone has put only a week into a character, it's just more tempting to get rid of it altogether and start with a fresh one that doesn't have that awkward quitter feel to it. A week (or however long) isn't really enough time for any interesting conflict to come from leaving the clan, so it's just kind of a bummer with no pros to balance the cons.

I don't really have a solution other than telling people when they join to please return anything they didn't arrive with if they want to leave. It could easily be included in the recruitment speech. "If you find out that it wasn't for you, you're welcome to leave, but put the stuff we gave you in that crate over there before you do."

Really the problem is that the game has far too many clans for its player numbers, so most of them are chronically underpopulated, yet it stinks to shut clans down because then the game loses something. When you join a clan and it turns out that it's a bit dead, the grass suddenly looks a lot greener everywhere else and that FOMO kicks in.

[Lotion]

The character that stores is still virtually a part of the clan and would need the items they were provided.

[tiny rainbow]

Like a lot of things when it comes to virtual stuff, it's not really that simple because of how there's more things virtually in the clan than is visible (like when staff sometimes give items when there's urgent need and it's reasonable they would have some, or things not usually obtainable due to uniqueness or extreme power) - if a character is virtual, then their stuff is virtual too so a player character wouldn't "throw it away" unless there's a story reason to it - if you think about it like that, the whole concept of which items that exist as "real" versus virtual is a very amorpheous thing and entirely an OOC construct really based on how players/staff want to handle it, so it just comes down to an OOC decision by the player whether the important thing becomes deleted/virtualised - I don't know statistics but I think it's probably right how people have said storage is also usually for OOC reasons, so when they run off with the stuff OOCly, for a lot of people on the other end of it it probably makes them feel bad about it/how the game/staff handled it, leaving a bad final memory.

[Narf]

The character that stores is still virtually a part of the clan and would need the items they were provided.

They can use the virtual equipment in the virtual bin.

[Halaster]

Is in the help files but I think not everyone (maybe even staff) is aware it says this and it definitely seems like it's not always followed, with characters that just "disappear" for OOC reasons instead of IC reasons never having any IC reason given, to not leave everyone hanging It's meant to be that way, I don't know why it's not followed? I am guessing it's not in the staff guidelines themselves and someone wrote it into the help file, maybe it should be if it's not, I don't know.

Yeah, I didn't realize that was in the help file.  I'll try to be more cognizant of that moving forward and let clan leaders know when their peeps are storing (unless there's reasons not to).

[triste]

Not addressing the duration question, personally I'd give any PC at least a month.

WRT storing generally, I recommend role playing wherever possible for this. Maybe organize an RPT that might result in you going out in a blaze of glory (characters from other players who I admire like Kukuali died in epic multi day RPT shit she largely instigated herself). Or if your PC is more low key, just bequeath your goods to your friends as you explain what your character will be doing virtually: going on some quest to distant lands, or taking a new post in the clan, etc.

This game is best when it's all about roleplay and immersion.

I, personally, would never store without explanation and go poof.

[Veselka]

Is in the help files but I think not everyone (maybe even staff) is aware it says this and it definitely seems like it's not always followed, with characters that just "disappear" for OOC reasons instead of IC reasons never having any IC reason given, to not leave everyone hanging It's meant to be that way, I don't know why it's not followed? I am guessing it's not in the staff guidelines themselves and someone wrote it into the help file, maybe it should be if it's not, I don't know.

Yeah, I didn't realize that was in the help file.  I'll try to be more cognizant of that moving forward and let clan leaders know when their peeps are storing (unless there's reasons not to).

It's SUPER DUPER helpful for Leadership PCs to be notified when people under them store. There's a difference between "Soandso isn't showing up and might be dead/murdered as part of this ongoing plot/etc" and "Soandso transferred to another unit". It's lead to sticky situations in the past. It would be awesome if it was policy to let Leadership PCs know in character reports if/when people under them store. I've seen more of it recently and it's way helpful.

[Barsook]

Agreed on leadship being told along with staff.

[Hauwke]

Storing with raptor bracer #9102994 isn't a big deal at all. It's shitty loaner gear and nearly every combat clan that hands the stuff out has way too much anyway.

Storing with the 3000 sid arbalest that the clan has and loaned you out for your HG to practice crossbow use? That's the kind of gear you put away before storage.

Loaner gear is an operating cost and putting that cost on the virtual units would be the exact same thing as giving the combat dwarf runner to another player Sergeant but taking all the dwarf's gear first.

[Barsook]

That's how I see it also, the price is what matters on the loaner gear.

[The Gruffalo]

Even if it's cheap stuff, your virtual life can take care of your virtual things. I'm not talking about things that were explicitly given to you to keep, or things that belonged to your character, those should of course go with you. I'm talking about clan gear, clothes, armor, and weapons that were given to you on set-up but that is expected to be given back if you leave. When you store with them, they have to be replaced, and that's just one more chore for the pile of running a clan. It's especially painful when it's mount tickets that you were loaned. Those are expensive!

As for not taking things from a character transferring to another Sergeant, well, shit, I would absolutely say "hey, if you're poaching this Runner from me, you get to outfit them with your shit, I'm taking mine back for a Runner that's going to stay in my unit." Resources are valuable, even if some clan halls don't reflect that.

I'm sure it seems like a minor issue to people who haven't had to run clan logistics, but every little bit helps.

The purpose of this thread was twofold; to offer a gentle reminder in case it just wasn't something people thought about, and curiosity as to why people store soon after joining a clan rather than leaving it. Hopefully with the reminder that there should be transparency and continuity around storing a character, the "wandering off with our items" thing will also improve, since it'll be more seamless and leaders will be aware of the storage.

Dar, I get the "awkward factor" and I hadn't considered that, to be honest. While I can understand the sentiment I don't think anyone should look down on it and had never imagined anyone would. This is a multiplayer game meant to be played for fun. We're in charge of our character's stories, so we can course-adjust and come up with IC reasons if need be. I'd personally be inclined to gloss it over and handwave it if the departure was obviously due to not clicking with the PCs in the clan or not sharing playtimes, or just not enjoying the clan itself, etc.

[Riev]

Storing with the 3000 sid arbalest that the clan has and loaned you out for your HG to practice crossbow use? That's the kind of gear you put away before storage.

I bought that with my own coin damnit. And then bought another one because dual-wielding arbalests was cool.

[Incognito]

For what it's worth, if I'm storing a PC, I'll make it a point to return clan gear to the clan. And I may also give out *some* my own gear to PCs that I know and deem worthy. Not sids though, for some reason doling out cash just seems unrealistic Zalanthas culture-wise.

[betweenford]

Before I store, I always aim to take the most plot relevant and valuable items with me to the virtual world. Whether it be metal rings, obscene amounts of coins on a rug, or someone's unique customcraft.

[X-D]

I tend to return clan gear, give out some gifts, take all my coin. Although, I think I have only stored while in a clan like 2 times.

[perfecto]

There's something about being part of a clan that forbids me to store, without exception.  If I'm playing indie and I'm not clicking with my character for whatever reason I don't even hesitate to store and start fresh.  I can't help but consider all the connections, relationships, plot-lines, and if nothing else, People looking for me when I'm clanned up?   

Pro Tip - If you're ready to bow out with a clanned character send the staff a heads up of your decision via the request tool... They will JUMP at the opportunity to tear you limb fro.. I mean Gift you a memorable Hero's Farewell!!!

[Lotion]

Pro Tip - If you're ready to bow out with a clanned character send the staff a heads up of your decision via the request tool... They will JUMP at the opportunity to tear you limb fro.. I mean Gift you a memorable Hero's Farewell!!!

YMMV, I've had a request of "I don't want to play this character can you yeet me with the latrine horror?" open for a few days and then when I cancelled it for "boring ol' storage" it was handled very quickly.

[triste]

Hallo again. As someone who has become hella inactive, the more I wish you had psionic voicemail or a way of setting a "way description" that indicates your character hasn't died or stored but is still around.

I would love to have a casual PC who appears now and then to do duty and scratch their ass at the pub who also isn't constantly assumed to be dead. I avoid leadership roles as a barely active player but would love to play flavor characters who can still get involved in plots.

Here is me drunkenly and hastily shitting out an idea, I don't care if people hate it or ignore it:


set waydescription I was caught skipping latrine duty and will be scarce. (ooc: out until __)

(Then when someone ways Shitface)

contact Shitface

You reach their mind, and you hear over the way, "I was caught skipping blah blah blah"


To keep this pertinent to the topic:

set waydescription I've been assigned to a new post, if I need to settle anything with you please reach me before (blah blah blah)


I think a lot of the dread and discussion around storing is people suddenly dropping off and leaving subordinates hanging. Gear disappearing as has been mentioned here, etc. This is a simple coded solution. Fixes your problems.

Obviously anything like an away message on the way could kill plot intrigue when people get murdered, maybe have some mechanism where someone who dies appears as "alive" with their way message still set for 2-3 IRL weeks with some dice roll involved on the longevity of the message. And if you want to die without a message, unset it before you store / go fighting silt horrors.

[MeTekillot]

-snip-

You're not being personally ignored or anything, Lotion. The simple fact of the matter is that staff can't proceed with killing your character via NPC animation without first consulting Staff Policy 16.D Subsection 4: Precedent Staff Complaint #144 vs. <REDACTED DUE TO STAFF POLICY 7: CONFIDENTIALITY OF ENFORCEMENT ACTION> and then consult their Producer or Administrator (as applies on a case by case basis) before they move forward with doing something like that.

Whereas with a simple storage, that's handled under Staff Policy 4A: Player Storage Full Fiat (Barring Cases of Exceptional Plot Relevance). Storage is much faster to handle and we can't go flaunting policy. Without policy, we're no better than the animals!!!

[perfecto]

Maybe they just like killing me more? 

At any rate, well worth communicating, that was my point

[WarriorPoet]

I hate hunting retired characters for a rl month before someone admits "Yeah. They stored."

This is an IC AND OOC pain in the balls that adds nothing to the game. It is time that could have been better spent.

[Hestia]

Sometimes a player will take a break from the game and not store their character. Sometimes they won't inform staff that they are planning on doing that. Sometimes a player will have a real life emergency that takes them away from the game and, being an emergency, they might not be /able/ to inform staff of their absence.

Sometimes the answer to the question "are they still playing?" is "we don't know."  We don't know if they have an emergency, or if they're taking a break, or if they've died, or if their newborn baby is taking up so much of their attention that they've just flat out forgotten to log in for a week.

Sometimes, a *character* will want to be difficult to find, and do things ICly to make it difficult to find them (even via the Way).  The "voice mail" thing will confirm to your character that this character is alive, not dead, not stored. That defeats the purpose of the system that allows for characters to make themselves difficult to find.  There have actually been times when someone wants their character to be incognito for awhile. Re-creating themselves, becoming forgotten, and re-emerging as someone else. While this isn't foolproof due to code limitations, the last thing anyone would want to do is give people a very easy OOC method of making sure that person is incapable of accomplishing this.  The "voice mail" is that OOC method.

If someone is missing for more than a week and this is unusual behavior for the player, pop staff a request.  If we can tell you the answer, we will. If OOC OR IC circumstances prevent us from telling you (whether we know the reason, or whether we don't know the reason), we'll tell you simply that we're unable to answer the question.

[The Gruffalo]

Sometimes, a *character* will want to be difficult to find, and do things ICly to make it difficult to find them (even via the Way).  The "voice mail" thing will confirm to your character that this character is alive, not dead, not stored. That defeats the purpose of the system that allows for characters to make themselves difficult to find.

The problem with that is the fine line of not abusing the meta of 'ooc unavailability vs ic unavailability'. People, iG, should have every right to know within a reasonable time frame that the character has been difficult to find, so they can be hunted. If the player is abusing low or infrequent login times (aka changing their usual playstyle deliberately and not due to OOC circumstances) as well as keeping their mind walled to create the appearance of being logged out (rather than simply missing/dead) that is crossing into meta play to accomplish an IC goal. That's crossing into abusive play as far as I'm concerned because it relies on OOC meta perceptions to fool the player rather than IC perceptions to fool the character (AND the player).

[Veselka]

Sometimes, a *character* will want to be difficult to find, and do things ICly to make it difficult to find them (even via the Way).  The "voice mail" thing will confirm to your character that this character is alive, not dead, not stored. That defeats the purpose of the system that allows for characters to make themselves difficult to find.

The problem with that is the fine line of not abusing the meta of 'ooc unavailability vs ic unavailability'. People, iG, should have every right to know within a reasonable time frame that the character has been difficult to find, so they can be hunted. If the player is abusing low or infrequent login times (aka changing their usual playstyle deliberately and not due to OOC circumstances) as well as keeping their mind walled to create the appearance of being logged out (rather than simply missing/dead) that is crossing into meta play to accomplish an IC goal. That's crossing into abusive play as far as I'm concerned because it relies on OOC meta perceptions to fool the player rather than IC perceptions to fool the character (AND the player).

Yeah, a Character wanting to be difficult to find is one thing, but people in Zalanthas are NOT terribly difficult to find (with some minor exceptions) due to the Unseen Way. Virtually, you would be able to find their mind, but they would be 'sluggish' because they were unconscious or sleeping. Other times, you might find their mind because they are krath-struck and not responsive (happens to the best of us). Other times, you might not find their mind because they're barriered, or you just couldn't manage it yourself and give up.

But if a very persistent person was trying to find someone, they would find them. That's the downside or upshot of the Unseen Way. It isn't like it is IRL, where if you are trying not to be found, someone can't PSIONICALLY try and find your MIND. That's some straight up magic.

So the 'Going to Ground' concept for most PCs involves:

-Taking long breaks from the game so people who knew about them die or stop looking for them because they can't find them (As Gruffalo points out, this is semi-meta).

-Getting a description change -- All the more effective now because of how the way contacts 'someone' and you can't sdesc/name sniff as much as you used to. (This sort of lessens the meta).

-Playing the game as much as you were playing it, and ignoring people finding you over the Way and taunting you, and breaking down your barrier every 10 seconds (happens to the best of us).

Like...It's all and well that a Player doesn't want their PC to be found...But I think even a PC that didn't want to be found would be like 'Yeah, so about that whole Unseen Way thing'.

--

In general, i'm not down with the Way Voicemail. I get that triste and other people can't play the game as much, but it isn't some Idling Website Game. ArmageddonMUD does requrie pretty consistent engagement in order to be fun for you, and fun for others around your PCs. It isn't a single player game you can pick up whenever you want and plug back into -- things move on and sometimes quickly, leaving the Casual Player a bit in the dust.

And I get it -- I've had periods of time where it's impossible for me to play a leadership role or anything more than a Red Shirt Bynner. But I don't that necessitates new code and new game-altering approaches to the Way in order to cater in that way. In my view, it's most fun when I have 1-2 hours a night I can toss the game's way at a consistent window of time. Not every night, but maybe 3-4 nights a week. It's my 'Instead of binge watching a TV show, i'll play Arm'.

And it isn't a judgement on how other people play or engage with the game -- That's just the medium i've found works best for me. But I can tell you WITH CERTAINTY, I would avoid Leadership roles like the plague if I logged in and had 40 voicemails waiting for me.

No thanks.

[The Gruffalo]

If a very persistent person was trying to find someone, they would find them. That's the downside or upshot of the Unseen Way. It isn't like it is IRL, where if you are trying not to be found, someone can't PSIONICALLY try and find your MIND. That's some straight up magic.

Which is why it's straight up abusive if you're not logging in specifically because you hope the people who are looking for you will stop looking for you, or you tell someone that a dead person has 'transferred' aka stored, because both situations take an OOC fact (this is a game we aren't always logged into) and uses it to influence an IC storyline. That's not ok.

Most people who do this probably haven't considered it from that angle, so hopefully they learn better once they have it pointed out to them. If they don't, they're being cheap and playing the meta to try and "win."

This isn't the same as saying "hey, I need to visit my virtual family a while" and then not logging in because that was your IC story to explain an OOC absence. The difference is in whether you're continuing a story or avoiding one.

[Hestia]

The thing is, it's no one else's business "why" they're not logging in.  Some players sometimes need a break due to in-game drama that they just have difficulty dealing with.  They absolutely do NOT owe their fellow clannies an explanation for their absence.  The staff will likely tell them "yeah they're just afk for awhile but still alive."  And that is only if the player tells the staff what's going on - which they're also not obligated to do.

There are people who have medical emergencies and again - they owe no one an explanation as to why their character has disappeared.

You, the player, won't know why the character has disappeared, and it's unfair to everyone if you make assumptions.  Yes - it might be true that they're avoiding logging in to not get caught doing something.  It also might be true that they, the player, just can't stand the plotline in general, and are waiting to see if the plot will cease, or if they'll just store instead.  It might be that just as things started getting hairy for their character, they had a medical emergency and had to jet.  It might be that just as the plot was getting uber dramatic, their spouse told them they were spending too much time on the game and not enough time with their kids.  You don't know why. And they don't owe you a reason.

The logging out intentionally to avoid IC consequences thing is something staff can look at - and it's possible that you will never find out that's what happened.  The way to address that is a "question" or "player complaint."

[Veselka]

I think you are conflating OOC reasons for needing to log off or not play the game with what was originally quoted Hestia. You were pointing out literally the *CHARACTER* might want to avoid being found. We were pointing out in a world like Zalanthas with the Way and psionicism, that mentality doesn't make as much analogous sense As it would IRL.

Of course we players are not owed explanations as to another players availability or reasons for not being around. However Staff can (and should) act as liaison particularly to leadership PCs who may rely on one or more of those PCs for their area of the game world to function well (Think, a Templar and their AoD sergeant).

I think it's perfectly reasonable for the Templar Player to ask staff if the Sergeant will be returning anytime soon if they've been MIA for a week or two. Given the Sergeant player likely communicated with Staff (or maybe ghosted) Staff may be able to say yes or no,  not necessarily "WHY".

The reason being -- A Templar PC isn't expected to run training for the AoD, or even be overly involved with the rank and file. The Sergeant PC is. So without a Sergeant PC, things break down in the game. A Corporal PC might be expected to step in for a bit -- But this is only with Staff direction and the understanding that the Corporal might become Sergeant soon, or another one is getting transferred in.

We of course have busy real lives. We don't need to know why someone isn't playing. Just if they are coming back or being replaced. Or if they stored. Staff have been more forthcoming on this front recently and I REALLY appreciated it so I was t left hanging.

It's TOTALLY reasonable and fine that people are pulled away from the game. Can't get in touch with Staff, can't let them know. RL emergencies (and even just a general drifting away from the game, even if you are involved in a position of power) happens all the time. This is a game, it's a hobby, it should be fun.

And on the flip side of that -- The PCs/People left hanging deserve to have a sense of continuity, and not stop and start motions when PCs are around and then suddenly not around. It creates a vast sense of inertia (sometimes to entire areas of the game) when leadership PCs in particular stop logging in or disappear.

At a certain point -- It is what It Is -- There is no panacea or cure-all solution to this. We all lead busy lives. Sometimes they get the better of us.

But as the OP says in this post (and the real point behind it) is that people should be considerate when storing in particular, and not store with ultra-rare or ultra-clan-sensitive items and equipment if at all possible. IMHO, when another leadership adjacent PC (So for example, an AoD Sergeant) stores, that the other leadership PCs involved with them (So in this example, a Templar) are informed that they stored (Not the reasons why), and that another one should be app'd in around (Date), or if they have suggestions for IC promotions.

That's all.

[The Gruffalo]

I think you are conflating OOC reasons for needing to log off or not play the game with what was originally quoted Hestia. You were pointing out literally the *CHARACTER* might want to avoid being found. We were pointing out in a world like Zalanthas with the Way and psionicism, that mentality doesn't make as much analogous sense As it would IRL.

Of course we players are not owed explanations as to another players availability or reasons for not being around.

Yeah. This.