Magicker VS Fighter

[Delirium]

I'd like to see

change stance [offensive|defensive]

Offensive would be your normal attacking stance, the one we all know and love.

Defensive would mean that you do not fight back, and instead, focus soley on dodging and defense. Of course, if you have no weapons, your defense is still going to be pretty crappy.

It could be handy in many situations, from the noble warrior chick refusing to hit back when her lover tries to punch her, to the grizzled old mercenary laughing at some green recruit as the poor sap tries madly to get a hit in, to the oh-so-familiar 'dying in a jail cell' shtick.. the list goes on.


Oh yeah! Uh, magickers. Right. Um. I voted magicker would lose in that circumstance, but I as well think it depends on whether or not the mage is able to react intelligently. Reacting with wits, a semi-experienced mage has got a pretty good chance to at least escape their attacker.

[Rindan]

I really like the idea of the avoid skill. I think it's realistic that if I was coming at someone fully armed, they'd not be focused on swinging back at me automatically. I would certainly be working on dodging and avoiding. I'd like to see some closer forms of martial arts that raise with time or can be practiced, a very good martial artist magicker would probably be pretty dangerous.
Dyrinis brought up an interesting point, I have no doubt that the spells later in the skill tree are incredibly powerful, but I don't see what would stop a sword going through your head from a 50 day warrior no matter who you are.

I can see things that could stop a sword going through your head from a 50 day warrior if you are a magiker.  The bigger issue is that you need to cast said things.  The only reason why I think a magiker would loose is because there is a way a warrior can attack such that a magiker can not, even with the fast triggers in the west, be able to cast before they die.  If a magiker could get off even a single spell at the same time a warrior makes his first attack, I think magikers would be plenty able to defend themselves.  If I could see any one thing added to magikers, it would be the ability to get that one paniced spell off before you die.

[adgohan]

I agree with you there Rindan, there are spell affects in game (hopefully not too IC, sorry if it is) that would help a magicker in melee..not to name anything specific.

However, I think that without those aforementioned abilities a magicker is pretty much equivilant to an unarmed merchant guild. Maybe you're suggesting some type of code that allows a magicker to keep his calm and be able to cast during the heat of battle or while still being beat on? In previous instances, I've had problems with this, but might just be field of expertise.

The avoid skill is essentially a good idea to lesser combative questions as JGG mentioned. Rindan, could you elaborate a bit more on what you mean? (Asking Rindan to elaborate kind of scares me, by the way.)

[__Torax__]

I'd have to say the Magicker would win....

All he has to do is say, "*POOF* Your a rat."

I dont know to many warriors that can fight as a rat...

[Angela Christine]

So what I'd really like to see is an "avoid" skill, and maybe give it to the less-combative classes.  All the skill does is for a period of time, causes you to not take a swing during combat, gives you a defensive bonus, and treats you like you have a weapon drawn for combat purposes.  It could only be used if both hands are free (diving rolls while wielding, say, a dagger usually end badly), and gives you large penalties to your flee while you have it active.  It'd give a magicker time enough to fire off spells, without having them sit there with both hands empty, taking the beating of a lifetime.

Interesting.  This reminds me of the footage of that lawyer avoiding getting shot by hiding behind a tree.  For those of you that missed it, some disgruntaled guy went to a  courthouse to act out his disgruntlment with a pistol.  He was trying to shoot a lawyer, so the lawyer ducks behind a tree.  The shooter is 3 feet from the lawyer, but the lawyer dodges around to keep the tree between them.  Everytime the shooter gets his gun up to fire, the lawyer's head and torso are on the other side of the tree.  I think the lawyer did get hit a few times, but he wasn't seriously injured.  Knowing that no one got hurt, it was funny as hell to watch.  I felt sorry for the tree though.

This would be similar to the avoid skill, I think.  The lawyer didn't try to run away because he didn't want to get shot in the back.  He didn't try to attack the shooter, because he believed fists would not be effective against a pistol at point blank range.  Instead he put all his energy into using the terrain as a sheild, and dodging like a crazed jozhal to avoid getting hit.  

Obviously this isn't a good long-term stratagy.  Eventually you need to do something, have someone rescue you, or hope the attacker's weapon stops working.  A gun eventually runs out of bullets, but  a sword keeps working until it breaks.  If there are several attackers the avoiding won't be as effective.  This isn't going to work for a long time, but it could buy you a minute or two to gather your wits and decide what to do.

AC

[Bogre]

There should be more defensive options open to a magicker.

Perhaps a magicker of sufficient discipline and training could prepare a spell beforehand, like the 'Readied spell' feat. But have it a moderately not starting skill. This would allow a magicker to release the spell with a short command ex: 'unleash'  :shock: or have it set to react when :is attacked-bashed-backstabbed-runs low on health/stamina/stun etc.

I think this would be a better option than the reflexive magick, because it would be more balanced, but create a nice level of options, and not say -you must have reflective magick each time-

A powerful krathian releasing a fireball whenever he gets init'd on sounds overpowered to me. However, a powerful krathian uttering a word and immolating a person while he flees sounds good.

Perhaps give magickers a 'combat casting' skill, like D&D.

[Carnage]

I'm not 100% sure if this is implemented as it's been a while since I played a magicker but maybe do two things:

1.)Make obvious offensive/defensive spells faster to cast. A fireball spell and a shield spell perhaps go off faster than healing or making water or whatever.

2.)Make it so that as you get better at a spell, you cast faster. Start maybe a bit slower than spells are now at wek and then have them be much faster to cast than they are now at mon. You're better at a spell so I'd presume you would know it better. Do it so it checks the skill in relation to what level you're casting at.

For example, casting wek (the lowest) with mon skill (the highest) is super fast. Casting mon with mon skill isn't as fast however.

[Tlaloc]

Delay:
  After, corresponds directly with proficiency in casting the spell.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Delay:
  After, corresponds directly with proficiency in casting the spell.

Let me see if I understand this correctly.  Let's say there are three elements to a command.  You enter the command, the command executes, and there is the possibility of delay.  If a command has Delay: After, then the order looks something like this - Enter, Execute, Delay.  If a command has Delay: Before, then the order looks something like this - Enter, Delay, Execute.

Saying that cast is of type Delay: After would seem to imply that a magicker could hammer out, say, a fireball instantly, but then expect some downtime immediately following the execution of the effect.  My experience with casting has been exactly the opposite - the command is entered, delay occurs, then the command executes - more like the Delay: Before type.

I guess what I'm asking is if the delay is listed incorrectly in the helpfile, or if something else is afoot.

[creeper386]

The command is cast. The delay isn't before cast. When you type cast whatever, the cast command goes in immediately. Then there is a delay. Then there is the effect.

The delay is more where in the cue does the command enter. Does the command enter AFTER a delay or before a delay? I'm pretty sure the acctually effect the command differs.

I'd consider casting spells alot like the craft command. I'd say the delay on the craft command is after. Even though it's before the effect.

Creeper

[naatok]

I've played every available guild on Arm except Psionicist.  I enjoy playing straight warriors, but my favorite guild is, unfortunately 'sorcerer'.

Why is that unfortunate?, you may ask.  Well, because I am fascinated by the incredibly complex magick code that has been implimented on ArmageddonMud, and also fascinated by the IC story of magick in Zalanthas.

How is that unfortunate?, you may ask.

Because every single well-played magick users I've done, with the exception of one (and even in that case it was saved by pity and plans), I have somehow manged to get killed in the most stupid of ways.

Since the advent of Karma, and the subsequent restructuring of guilds and races, every single mage of note that I've played has died because of something stupid I did...or didn't do as a player.  None were just outright killed by others....and none of them by other pcs.

What IS good about this is that I have NO fear of you big, bad warrior types out there when I'm playing my vile sorcerers and what-not.  

This warrior vs mage discussion is rather like the juvenile
'Batman/Superman.  Who would kick whose butt?'

The hard truth of the matter is that a high-end warrior, no matter how many mekillots s/he eats for breakfast a day, is no where NEAR the league of a high end sorcerer....or even some elementalists.

There are many reasons for this, which I won't go into detail on.  Suffice it to say that a uber-mage has many more offensive/defensive techniques at his disposal than an uber-warrior....and many of those techniques don't involve so-called 'battle spells' one iota.  It is all a matter of staying alive to discover the secret buried treasures of knowledge, bruthas an' sistahs.

No!  I'm not talking about hidden tomes of magick, or items or shit!  I'm talking about the rewards of IC years....perhaps DECADES....of research and practice.

In the immortal words of 'Switch' from the Matrix.  "Take my advice.  When you see an.." [old mage]"..you do what we do.  You run.  You run your ass off."

Unfortunately, it isn't as easy to run and avoid mages in Zalanthas as it is to avoid Agents in the Matrix.  I won't even go into the difficulties of discovering when they are there....watching your every move.  :twisted:

[Stroker]

In the words of 'Mouse' from the Matrix: " Pay no attention to these hypocrites, to deny ourselves our desires is to deny the very thing that makes us human." (I know the first part's word for word, but the rest is shaky).

I shall play a Psionist then so I can say that I've played something you haven't.

[Malifaxis]

Batman would so kick Superman's ass.

[Stroker]

You know how there is Captain America, I wonder if there's Captain Soviet.

[Malifaxis]

Who's Your Czar?

You can either thank me, or build a gulag and name it after me.  Your choice.

To anyone not Dirr:  If you enjoy comics, and have an appreciation for fine art, you should check this out.

----

Back to the topic, however.

I agree with the 'mages with the scary wicked powers will toast your butt' line of logic.  But the main deal is that I would make an outside ballpark guess that one out of every five hundred mage characters generated actually gets within spitting distance of those scary wicked powers.

And that until you get scary wicked powers, you are one drunken bynner with an attitude away from the mantis.