Economy Feedback - wood

[Delirium]

But there's also an element of balancing theme and the 'Zalanthan' mindset with the player mindset and enjoyability of the game.. I guess?

This is very important, IMO. Not every character concept works for being in a clan, and not every player enjoys being in a clan. Being able to have a "safety net" is almost less of an IC thing and more of an OOC thing. Having to constantly pursue coded means of survival and money-making means that you have to step away from scenes and roleplay that may very well be what draws you to the game. One of ArmageddonMUD's strengths has always been that it caters to a wide variety of playstyles. While coded actions are still roleplay, and while scraping for survival is absolutely a theme of the game, there are also playability issues to consider, such as:

a) low playtimes impacting your ability to make money
b) that money being a means for you to be able to actually let a scene play out and develop interpersonal relationships and carry on stories
c) that money being used to further plots, support other PCs, and in general, participate in the game.

Please be very careful about punishing PCs who have low playtimes by forcing them to spend those hours they do have available "dealing with things" (a.k.a. making money, doing maintenance chores, etc) rather than getting to enjoy the game, which for many, the meat of the game comes from interacting with other players.

Yes, some people are happy playing Armageddon as a survival simulator, but that shouldn't be forced on those who are more socially oriented. Especially since the "survival" aspects often mean they can't socialize.

I think it is an easy trap for staff to fall into conceiving of an ideal gameworld setup where everyone has to rely on everyone, and interaction is forced between people, but going too far in trying to force that will only end up in frustrated players who may just decide not to log on at all-- especially if they're offpeak. Forcing too much reliance on other PCs makes for a worse gameplay experience and not a better one. If people want to interact, they will interact. If they don't, they don't. Those who want to interact will only be punished if it is harder to get basic ends met so that they can sit down for interaction rather than be forced to go off doing survival-oriented stuff.

I've been worried ever since this trend of splitting up skills too widely between classes began, and while I do think it's good to have specializations, it feels like things are going too far. We do not have a large playerbase. We *need* to be able to make money off NPCs and through coded interactions so that we can actually interact with other PCs in a non-combat or non-chore/crafting scenario when the opportunity arises.

"Sorry buddy, I can't come talk to you, I will literally starve if I don't forage a few more roots." <- not fun.

[Narf]

(edit)
I do not see changing rent prices helping anything, I bet less then half of the "rich" PC's rent anything anyway. None of mine in the past few years have and knew very few with the same level of coin that did either.

Adding very high end coin sinks could be helpful...And they need not even be big to justify prices...just much more secure.

I agree. I don't know about other places, but there are a bevvy of unrented apartments in Allanak. Adding more apartments, or making the existing ones more expensive would just make even more empty apartments.

[Dresan]

So, there is a balance required, as some players have longer playtimes than other players, and the goal is that players don't have to "do chores" in order to enjoy playing the game. 

I would argue that the balance here is the question of did the person choose to play a merchantile class or has a crafter sub-class. I believe grind should be cut in half so they master their skills quickly and without tedium. If the person has those crafting skills they should be able to make good amounts of money to afford finer things in the game.

If the person chose to play a raider/mage then they should not need to train ride skill for the 100th time all over again, but they shouldn't complain that their class/subguild choices are having a hard time generating wealth to afford the very best stuff the game has to offer easily.

[triste]

And then you have that Raider/woodworker who is making LOADS of coin because they can do both.

Back on topic now, are we!

Keeping it short and sweet in the hope someone listens:

Realism is always the answer. Armageddon succeeds when it does this.

I think I am the only one here who cited stats here, and to repeat: Logging is the most dangerous job in America. We're talking about the most militarized, crime ridden country in the world, and the fucking trees are deadly. Make it the same IG. There is my "Economy Feedback - wood"

[JustAnotherGuy]

Whenever I think about the economy, I always go to the base level.  Where does the raw materials you work with come from?

For woodworking - go out and "use movement points to create wood items"
For stoneworking - go out and "use movement points to create stone items"
For jewelrymaking - go out and "use movement points to create precious stone items"
For clothworking - go buy cloth, and then craft it into other items.
For weaponcrafting - go kill a beast, skin it.  AND/OR gather wood AND/OR gather stones
For armorcrafting - go kill a beast, skin it.  AND/OR gather wood AND/OR gather stones
For cooking - go kill a beast, skin in.


The tricky one here, for the most part, is clothworking, as you have to buy the material in order to work with it, so you're at a loss before you've even started making coins. I do know that the staff recently introduced a clothing type - sandsilk - that can be gathered by players, so maybe we should invest in sandsilk items as a potential profit making scheme...

For the rest of the crafting skills, a single player may be able to produce the raw materials out of nothing, and then convert them into valuable items.



Regarding wood changes - I haven't played enough to get my opinion on it, yet...

Just a heads up, you can create all of the cloths IC, one of them is in the cloth working help file.  No need to buy them.

[Tranquil]

I think these changes are good steps so far, but if you wanted to really limit people from getting 70k in their banks despite just being a normal grebber, I would recommend changing up the coin 'loopholes' as people have mentioned already in this thread instead of focusing on simple crafts sold to NPCs that don't really net enough coin to make your PC rich.

For example: selling 20 of the same thing but they're dyed in different sets of color. Or, how glass mining can net you 3000+ coins in an IG day of effort. Tailoring in Red Storm is also quite a limitless source of coins which is easily abused and I'm sure has been abused by most players already.

Logging is already quite balanced, since it's the boogeyman of every economy woe. It used to be bad in the past, having played a few lumberjacks -- but nowadays, I feel it's devalued wood to be almost not worth gathering for woodworking recipes. Not to mention there's many different types of kryl, yompar, carru, gortok ready to eat you alive in the Grey.

My final conclusion and piece of feedback: focus less on what keeps PCs alive, focus more on what makes PCs offensively rich with little to no effort or real interaction.

[Dresan]

Realism is always the answer. Armageddon succeeds when it does this.

I think I am the only one here who cited stats here, and to repeat: Logging is the most dangerous job in America. We're talking about the most militarized, crime ridden country in the world, and the fucking trees are deadly. Make it the same IG. There is my "Economy Feedback - wood"

If you are going with this angle, then instead of making it "dangerous" wouldn't it make more sense if quality cutting logs, and quality stones from boulders are turned into actual skills like 'skinning' which only certain classes-subclasses get, everyone else without the skill would have little chance of doing this profitably. I know its already a bit like this already with forester but I am okay with going all the way and just making them skills which rise very quickly.

I look at some of the trees just outside my window and I would not be able to cut them down myself, i need a professional to come do it. That said, I won't deny I am pretty biased with making mundane subguilds a much more attactive option in game.

[Citizen Puddi]

Yes, some people are happy playing Armageddon as a survival simulator, but that shouldn't be forced on those who are more socially oriented. Especially since the "survival" aspects often mean they can't socialize.

....

"Sorry buddy, I can't come talk to you, I will literally starve if I don't forage a few more roots." <- not fun.

If you've never invited a friend to share cheap wine and stomp around in the clay pits or brought up shoveling shit as a first date-- you're def missing out.

I kinda see what you're getting at, but I'm having trouble thinking of any methods of making money that can't be turned into a social event of some sort.

[Delirium]

Yeah because spamming forage makes for a really engrossing scene... 

[Citizen Puddi]

Yeah because spamming forage makes for a really engrossing scene... 

Touché!

That does give me an idea tho. c:

[X-D]

Realism is sometimes the answer. Armageddon sometimes succeeds when it does this.

Fixed that for you.

Realism balanced for playability usually succeeds. Realism for the sake of realism usually does not or simply does not matter at all. ESPECIALLY since most of the time the people putting it in don't have the faintest clue what is real anyway.

Let us take a couple that were put in for no reason having anything to do with playability.

Torches and such blowing out. Now first, Candles, fine, Torches, NOT realistic at all. Torches do not blow out IRL...sorry. Secondly, All it ended up doing is forcing everybody to get light items that do not blow out. So in the end, unless that was the point.....

Second, Shops closing at night...realistic...debatable, Most places outside the US where I have been that have arm style bazaars do not close. Oh sure This street taco shop might be closed after 9pm, but the one across from it is only open from 9pm...so game wise, just leave the silly thing open. But aside from that, it just means people, for the most part, log back off or idle in apartment or whatever till the shops open. Added nothing to the game IMO and likely had a net negative affect.

Anyway...
I did have a sort of on topic question.

Is the wood rebalance part of a longer/larger ongoing economy rebalance?

[mansa]

Anyway...
I did have a sort of on topic question.

Is the wood rebalance part of a longer/larger ongoing economy rebalance?

Yes.

This is a response thread about the latest updates in the economy work announcement.

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,54533.0.html

In Summary,
The items in the game have been created by over 100 staff members, over 30 years, and they have ranged outrageously in terms of weight, cost, materials, bonuses, and crafting recipes.

Shabago has been spearheading a project since 2019 to harmonize a lot of the objects, align the bonuses, and to put the items values into more meaningful values for the gameworld.

[Dresan]

Yeah because spamming forage makes for a really engrossing scene... 

Hmm..

At high levels, it doesn't take much effort to gather food and water, the only things you need to survive in this game. Not to mention, its easy gathering materials(location dependant) to fuel for other profit making skills like jewerly making.

Other than that, I am okay with forage/cook not being a the money-making combo, rather just being basic survival. Assuming the game cuts skill grind time and you chose a crafter sub-class then not sure you need to spam forage all that much to generate good profit.   

In short, if you didn't choose a crafter sub-guild or merchant class you shouldn't be spamming more, you should just be poor and live your life accordingly.

My final feedback: The economy in this game is broken because you can choose powerful combos like scout/mage or raider/slipknife and still expect to be as wealthy as someone who invested in a crafter sub-guild or merchantile class without any RP effort. This needs to be fixed, and it looks like the staff are moving to that direction. Good for them, I hope to see more, including remove all the loop holes for get quick rich schemes.   

[lostinspace]

Is the issue that lumberjacks are too safe while working, or is this even an issue with acquiring logs? Logging doesn't seem any safer/easier than obsidian/gem mining. In the south you can mine obsidian/gems inside guarded gates with a barracks to rest when you get tires and a stable for your mount when you're ready to haul it back and make 100 coins a chunk.

It sounds like this is specifically targeting the value increase you get going from log -> shield/chest which is a good change. The big issue with these is the variety of types act as a loophole for merchant limits.

The best fix in mind, would be to make merchants smart enough to not buy a kalan-marked chest/shield if they already have 6+ inix-marked chests/shields. Or maybe just only allow them to buy one of each type.

[Brokkr]

Is the issue that lumberjacks are too safe while working, or is this even an issue with acquiring logs? Logging doesn't seem any safer/easier than obsidian/gem mining. In the south you can mine obsidian/gems inside guarded gates with a barracks to rest when you get tires and a stable for your mount when you're ready to haul it back and make 100 coins a chunk.

Please put in a request on where you can do this and I will fix it.

[creeper386]

I think there is an issue with comparing modern lumber industry dangers to the game. Modern lumber industry is dangerous due to the large amount being processed and the machinery involved. Certainly it's not completely safe cutting down a tree, especially if you don't know what you are doing. But with a little knowledge and as long as a guy next to you isn't also cutting down a tree I wouldn't say it's comparable to industrial style tree farming.


What should be dangerous is the environment around the trees, I've always been on the understanding that it'd dangerous but maybe not enough?


I agree I'd like to processed goods being the value, boards and poles and inherently the end products. I haven't wandered through the Bazaar in Allanak yet but I kind of don't want to see cheap ass wood products there.

With efforts put into to make the world more alive and more dangerous. I'd hate to also see less incentive to then make those trips in terms of the value of items not worth it. Already there is almost no demand for PC merchants moving goods around. Because you can't really sell them to PCs and now if you can't sell them to NPCs is there going to be even less "imported" goods now then their were?

[Jihelu]

I'll give some of my own opinion on this

Note: The last I played a full crafter (Artisan/Apothecary) was right after the changes to the economy where the shops wouldn't reset every patch.

Here used to be my money making machine: I'd pay a dwarf to go fetch me logs. I'd pay 200 per log, 300 per big log. I'd then take those logs and turn them into shields, and make like 1k per log total (Assuming I didn't fuck up)
I'd then do this as many times as I could and store excess logs in the borsail craft-y room because my bastard has no shame.
Then...they changed the economy a bit and my method sucked ass. Absolutely was not worth it to even buy logs after that for npc purposes, and no one really wants non clan weapons. So logs became worthless.

Then I started making all my money off of brew lmao. Everyone wants cures and I've got a big ole fucking word doc of every plant in the game (That I personally attained, I was a busy bee) so I was the alpha apothecary god.
Then I got kinda bored of that because the amount of plants I needed were insane. I'd regularly have 100 bimbal on my herb table, go down to 30, then back up to 100 in the span of irl days. Was nuts.

More recently:
I had my master forage -not craft- class pretty good at doing mining, and I was well traveled. I went to go get some logs for someone. Note: Forage does not help woodcutting so uh, it fucking sucks to get.
Anyway, there's a lot of potential dangers in woodcutting.
I was harassed by:
Players
Kryl
Raptors (Me like the red desert path)
Gith (Pah path aint much safer)
Yampar
Carru
A gortok one time

Wood costing more in the south is a combination of me having to deal with all this bullshit. AND travel across the known to do it. I think wood being kinda pricey, not sure how much they lowered it but it seems like a lot from what people are saying, is fine. There's no more 'I make 1k per log off shields and do it every wipe' shit you can do (Trust me I wish there was ) so I feel like wood being worth a bit ain't too crazy.
But that's just like, my opinion.

AND apparently mounts don't have infinite stamina anymore, so you can't even just sprint the trip anymore like you used to be able to.

[Nao]

I don't think the economy is as broken as you all seem to think it is.

If you skip the 'cheesy stuff' that your PC probably shouldn't be doing, it can be pretty hard to make money already. Especially if you're unclanned or your clan doesn't provide water. I've had to resort to pretty damn boring coin-griding just to afford water on a PC a few years ago. I would rather have spent that time roleplaying, but that coin had to come from somewhere. More recent PCs didn't get stupidly rich, either. Selling items to shops does not work nearly as well as it used to because they don't reset after reboots anymore, and

• The shop already has five of these or
• The shop is out of money.

It's also pretty frustrating if you need to come back to the same store at ten different occasions until you finally manage to sell an item. Maybe prices for PCs selling to shops should be reduced and the rate of VNPC sales increased to make up for that.

I'm a bit worried that more restrictions will force me to either spend the majority of my time on a new PC 'grinding' just to afford necessities and basic armor, or mine glass/obsidian and shit out candles or chests on a PC that really should not be doing any of these things. Maybe this is because I rarely play crafters.

Is it mostly mercantile classes and the crafting subguilds that get stupidly rich?

[Jihelu]

Nao brings up some good points that I think my post neglected, especially after the economy rework.

'Shop no money' is a much bigger issue now that the shops don't reset their inventory. Less likely to be able to sell to them and less likely able to actually sell something to them even if they aren't full

[Brokkr]

I'd be interested to know which shop you are seeing the no money problem at currently.  More often, I am seeing the opposite on nearly all of the shopkeepers, with the exception being those that don't do virtual sales.  Since coin levels also save over reboots, along with inventory.

[Jihelu]

I'd be interested to know which shop you are seeing the no money problem at currently.  More often, I am seeing the opposite on nearly all of the shopkeepers, with the exception being those that don't do virtual sales.  Since coin levels also save over reboots, along with inventory.

Since I haven't played crafters since the economy changes, I haven't sold enough to really deal with it.
After the changes in the brief time I played, I always noticed the Kadian jeweler and I believe the Salarr weaponsmith was almost always out of coin when I wanted to sell things.

[williamson]

I'd be interested to know which shop you are seeing the no money problem at currently.  More often, I am seeing the opposite on nearly all of the shopkeepers, with the exception being those that don't do virtual sales.  Since coin levels also save over reboots, along with inventory.

I've also noticed the Kadian jeweler and Salarri archery shop both in Allanak were usually out/low on coins.

[Brokkr]

The script that changes out the Kadian colors from time to time I believe is what is impacting that NPC, which is a very specific issue.

As for the other two, you sure you've had this problem in the last...3 months or so?  I ask because the Allanak Salarri archery shop NPC has well over two hundred thousand coins, which seems adequate.  While the Allanak Salarri weaponsmith has well over a million coins and should think about absconding to a seafront villa.  Not asking about historical problems because outside of a few fringe cases like the Kadian jeweler, this issue can exist temporarily, but it is unlikely over time.  Rather, interested in recent (since a few months after the save change) issues.

[williamson]

The script that changes out the Kadian colors from time to time I believe is what is impacting that NPC, which is a very specific issue.

As for the other two, you sure you've had this problem in the last...3 months or so?  I ask because the Allanak Salarri archery shop NPC has well over two hundred thousand coins, which seems adequate.  While the Allanak Salarri weaponsmith has well over a million coins and should think about absconding to a seafront villa.  Not asking about historical problems because outside of a few fringe cases like the Kadian jeweler, this issue can exist temporarily, but it is unlikely over time.  Rather, interested in recent (since a few months after the save change) issues.

This was > 6 months ago.

[oggotale]

Why not take the ease of wood as an opportunity to make woodworking may more dangerous instead?

Look at that! Those are some nasty fucking beasts are in trees now, fuck a lot of lumberjacks have been eaten alive recently.

Similarly I think the baddies could be increased for other non crafting forage money-makers too (e.g. spice)