Rule Breaking - Offshoot from other thread.

[Pariah]

So, there are GAME rules that are not to be broken, don't script, don't be overtly ooc, don't be an asshole to staff etc etc.

Those should never be broken right, I think we all understand that.

But in another thread there was a bit of discourse around is it bad to break rules ICly.

I used to be of the opinion that I wasn't playing the role correctly.  If I joined the Byn, I joined the Byn knowing that it had restrictions and if I didn't want to abide by them, don't join the Byn.

Then whether time or experience, who knows, I came to the realization that isn't how it's done.  I've caught many folks breaking rules of their organizations, being out the walls when they shouldn't, poisoning things where it's illegal, etc etc.  And you know what, that's fine.

If you do not take the steps to conceal your rule breaking and you're rolling out the gates in your shitcloak for every VNPC and the guards to witness, you are in fact doing it wrong and I would EXPECT to have staff animate one of the many Sergeants and give you shit.  If I was a staff member I WOULD give you shit.  Because you're ignoring the game world to do that.

Now however, if you go into an alley or other "deserted" area and change outta your shitcloak, go rolling out the gate like Amos the grebber on his way to find some obsidian to haul back.  How, realistically are you going to be caught?

It's not twinky to take steps to conceal your motives.  If you feel that is twinky to do something like that, then you must think every single subguild mage without a gem is a twink by that standard.

You are not supposed to be super bynner runner surpreme who does every rule, to be such is not a real person, you're a robot.  If you want to go grab some salt, so you can afford more spice in that rinth back alley bar cause you're a fucking shitty bynner, you go do that.  Just be ready for your world to crash down when you are discovered, thus the danger/reward of your actions.

[MeTekillot]

Many clan rules serve a dual purpose of keeping newbies from committing roundabout suicide while also encouraging conflict in or out of the clan. That's my perspective, anyway.

I generally give brisk updates to staff or post on the clan rumor thread if I'm playing a particularly delinquent character.

[Pariah]

Also remember to use Think/feel liberally.

I never used to use it so folks watching me, staff and player alike could be like "WTF is this guy doing?"

So now I'll try and do:
Think Wonder if anyone else has been through here.
hunt
Skillcheck: Can't see any tracks.
Think Must have fucked that up or it's too windy.
hunt:
Skillcheck: A long-limbed elf came through here to steal your cookies!

Or if I'm worried about something.

Think Fuck, good thing that Templar didn't look at me and see my spell of AWESOME that's invisible to normal eyes I forgot to remove.
Feel Worried.

That way if I do something, it has a thought and feel behind it or least a thought.

Also some comedy relief, I can't tell you how many times I've been like.

Think I fucking hate this guy.
tell guy (smiling over) Hey pal, was worried you died!
Think More hopeful than worried but meh.

I just recently picked up this habit in my last few characters and I'm sure the psionicists if any are playing are having a field day with all my random ass thoughts and confessions that I give through the command.

But feel confident that if any staff member were ever to be like, why did he hunt twice right there, and looked at the log they would be like, ahh okay and go on their way.

[Pariah]

Many clan rules serve a dual purpose of keeping newbies from committing roundabout suicide while also encouraging conflict in or out of the clan. That's my perspective, anyway...

I agree to an extent, but take the Byn for example.  I play a year, active IG year in the clan and spar and fight every day as I'm supposed to.  Skill wise, I'm a fucking BEAST when I finish my year or even well before that.

Yet the rules still say that Troopers can't leave the gate without a Sergeant or Above.

Those are the things that make me sometimes doubt that they are "There for my best interest."

I've used the Byn to train up a few characters and became absolute fucking murderbeasts in less than an IG year because of how often and how much you fight.  I am the anti-knowledge of gaining skill in fighting guy, but it just HAPPENS in the Byn.  I have no idea if it's the repetition, the time, the fighting PCs versus animals.  But I always end up with at least Journeyman weapon skills if I put in a year or close to it in the Byn.

I think Troopers should be able to go fuck around outside the city if they want, but I don't write the rules.  Hence why it's good to know you can break them without being looked down on OOCly.

[WarriorPoet]

Piss on the rules. Follow them as much as is IC appropriate for your character and situation. Other than that, go find your fun. You and your character both know the risks, rewards, and potential punishments.

Terrible behavior makes for interesting scenes.

[MeTekillot]

Don't forget the common knowledge of almost every single authority figure in Zalanthas being a corrupt asshole.

It also pays to make yourself useful. Maybe you break the rules and the Sergeant looks the other way because you broke some legs for her under the table.

[Dresan]

One of my problems with clans is that their rules are too strict and make logging in sometimes a rather boring experience. They should be made more flexable on 'days off' for higher ranked characters so they have opportunity to have some fun as long as they leave thier cloaks and clan gear in their lockers. The rules are often there to protect newbies and regular character alike but in reality they often cause them to store more then they save them from dying to some scrab.

Being a delinquent or a rule breaker is fine and all, but this isn't the norm with every character. This shouldn't be the only route we can take to alievate OOC boredom or to satisfy our desire to train our skills.

[MeTekillot]

If you want to be a little less cloak and dagger about it, I think it's also totally fine to just straight up ask your leader and try to get them to come to an arrangement with you. If you're high ranked and useful enough, they'll usually allow you to do as you please within reason.

[X-D]

WP has the right of it.

How much your PC follows rules or which rules etc totally depends on the PC.

But as others have mentioned, There are other ways as well. I have had many PCs make special deals with the PC in charge.

Now, I am not saying it is always possible to do...But usually it is.

Like, if you are a recruit in almost any clan, You realize that your house gear is more valued then you are........hint hint....

[Alesan]

Let's not start saying people whose characters are following every rule are just being a dumb robots who aren't playing the game correctly. All kinds of characters exist. Including rule-followers.

[X-D]

Yeah, you are the only one that said "dumb robot" or anything about playing the game right or wrong.

Most everybody has already said that you should do what is IC for your PC, which would be anywhere in the range of rules stickler to Rule...I do not know that word. I mean, it takes all kinds to make the game interesting.

Though I have called people who always follow all rules without thought robots IRL so....Eh...

[X-D]

Dresan: I have found that clan leader PCs have Leeway on rules, within reason. As long as they take into account which rules are important to the higher ups in the clan and which are not so much.

When playing a leader I have never had staff jump on me for changing/bending/ignoring some rules. I have had 2 times where my PC was told that the clan does not do this...but it was reasonable and done IC.

I mean it all depends on the PC leader of course...but If your PC can make a reasonable offer/argument there is always a chance of changes. I have rarely found that things cannot be handled IG on these matters. Assuming you are playing the type that does not...for whatever reason want to take the chance on breaking whatever rule.

[Inks]

What are you talking about? You are saying you aren't twinky while judging others for the way they play their characters. You are obviously insecure about what your PC is doing or you wouldn't have made a post about it. There is nothing oocly bad about breaking rules, but if your pc isn't following a schedule after leaving compound etc then they can be reported by NPCs. There are virtual populations stated in rooms, and inside compounds. If your PC is leaving to divk about when they should be following the schedule with other PCs, and unit NPCs/VNPCs would notice your absence and report you, then take the consequences if caught/reported. Not sure the exact context here but I bet you are talking about something too recent. Your post is self indulgent and insecure. Take the virtual populations of rooms into account when doing actions is my advice, if no people are stated in room then you are probably golden. Most people will be minding their own business anyway though. Don't judge other people's RP, Pariah, unless you are RPing on the gdb as your username.

I once (long time back) had a pc executed for entering rinth on a Bynner, that was a bit much, but is within the right of the Sargeant, I guess. Otherwise punishments are judged by the officers, if they like your PC they usually give a lighter punishment. Some people are hardarses and that is ic.

[Kialae]

It's murder (kill to advance your agenda), corruption (it's only illegal if you're weak), betrayal (put yourself above others to survive). These are the ONLY rules.

[Dar]

I've pulled off emotes such as, "Perhaps unaware of, but likely totally ignoring the approaching Sargeant, @ grabs hold of whomever and runs off."   I did that before I skedaddled away and skipped a bunch of duties.


Breaking IG rules is just fine and dandy. Usually 'smart' leaders only begin to get real serious about this when it is becoming detrimental to the clan. Ie, if you keep on skipping on duties, whatever. But if your absence is making someone else who is following the rules unable to enjoy the game due to an empty training hall then that's a problem. Often enough, the schedule is just a method to corral the characters to do the same thing, at the same time, at the same place. Brings them together and lets them interact with each other. Otherwise we have one person bored out of his mind in the sparring hall, one skilling up in the wilderness, the other sneaking it up in the rinth, the fourth is practicing magick in a cave, and the fifth is playing cards in a bar.  Not bad for most people except the one solo guy waiting to follow his schedule, but this hardly leads to clan storytelling.

[Pariah]

Sorry if I wasn't clear when I posted but what I was talking about was the two days off of the week for the Byn.

I was at every training or gathering during assigned hours I played because that was WHY I joined the Byn. To become a combat monster in as short a manner of time as possible.

And the schedule of the Byn accomplishes that regardless of your class. I've had crafter types who after a year could kill critters easily that normally would destroy most other of that class because of the training.

But if I wanna learn to skin, forage or whatever and it's day off, you better believe I'm not sitting in a tavern drinking.

After all nobody joins the Byn to not train at all.  That's like becoming a salarr crafter and not wanting to use the craft system.

My rule of thumb while I'm in the Bin is I show up at dawn to the training hall.  If nobody else shows up, and late morning comes, that's when I say, fuck it, I'm off today and roll out and do stuff.

You should never feel forced to sit in one location idling because of a role.

[Attana]

I tend to play rule followers, so far as the schedule goes, IG due to exactly Dars Post.  The schedules are there to corral people in the clan into specific areas for the purpose of RP - yeah you joined to get gud, but you also joined a group of other PCs who count on their clannies to show for not only getting beefy, but for RP and interaction as well.

I don't have a problem with people who have their PCs skip training and chores, I just personally would feel bad about dipping out on interactions with other players and causing them to think no ones around so they instead just go and log off - just for the sole purpose of being able to go out and train hunt, skin, etc.  Hence why I'm an advocate for all clannies getting who c.  If you're encouraged to use the gdb to get names and find their minds, what's the big deal to not have it?

Also - to point out others - don't ignore the vnpc world.  In places like the Byn, there are always people in the sparring hall training by way of room emotes.  It personally sounds to me like it's not about RP and interaction, it's about skilling up instead of being "idle".

[Alesan]

Yeah, you are the only one that said "dumb robot" or anything about playing the game right or wrong.

Most everybody has already said that you should do what is IC for your PC, which would be anywhere in the range of rules stickler to Rule...I do not know that word. I mean, it takes all kinds to make the game interesting.

Though I have called people who always follow all rules without thought robots IRL so....Eh...

I added the word dumb, yes, but I was not the first person to use robot. Read the posts again.

[Pariah]

Also - to point out others - don't ignore the vnpc world.  In places like the Byn, there are always people in the sparring hall training by way of room emotes.  It personally sounds to me like it's not about RP and interaction, it's about skilling up instead of being "idle".

Trust me I'm not, I'd rather hang out and do stuff with players all day than grinding hunt, in fact the only reason I even train some skills is that they branch into skills that you "need".

However, to expect me to just stand in the training hall and type things like.

Emote does a few drills with a trooper.

From Dawn till Dusk with nobody around is just not realistic or fun.

While I am all for roleplay, I'm all for enjoyment more than that.

Nobody is gonna wanna sign in to play a game where they are bored or hate playing it because that's someone who's sadistic and twisted.

That's why when I play a Bynner I'll be hanging out in that training hall till late morning, if nobody finds me, day off time.

Or would you rather I just goto the barracks and log off versus solo rp?

The pendulum falls both ways, people log in can't find interaction and log out.  And people also log in, can't find interaction and do other shit.

Also, sometimes doing shit had nothing to do with skilling up, sometimes I'm just exploring because it's fun, skilling up is a byproduct.

There seems to be a divide in Bynner views.  Some people like me view it as a means to an end, a service you pay 300 coins to be a part of.  Others act like it requires some quasi religious devotion.

[Attana]

Trust me I'm not, I'd rather hang out and do stuff with players all day than grinding hunt, in fact the only reason I even train some skills is that they branch into skills that you "need".

However, to expect me to just stand in the training hall and type things like.

Forgive me.  I must've misread the various examples given on this thread that didn't include actually seeking out PC to PC interaction as the reason and instead included grinding and skilling up.

But back on topic.  If it's your characters prerogative, by all means.  If your character gets caught, though, deal with the consequences ICly, with PCs and/or if IMMs animate.

[triste]

It's murder (kill to advance your agenda), corruption (it's only illegal if you're weak), betrayal (put yourself above others to survive). These are the ONLY rules.

I think this post succinctly and elegantly won this thread.

[Greve]

I don't think you should have to break the rules on a regular basis in order for clanned life to be tolerable.

[triste]

Yes, agreed.

If we consider the murder corruption betrayal motto, some organizations might be rigidly commanded with fully occupied underlings--a cohesive, well oiled murder corruption betrayal machine.

You may also see the inverse scenario. A gang where murder and corruption and betrayal is not top down, but more bottoms up, where underlings literally assassinate gang leaders to become the new leader.

Be it a tightly run military organization ran by corrupt hands at the top, or a more ragtag group of raiders without rules entirely, the overaching objective of the game is the same: murder corruption betrayal, AKA survival in a brutal world.

So do whatever you have to to survive in a brutal world. Maybe you have a fantastic and active leader so that you never even have to contemplate breaking the rules because you know following their rules will make you more powerful. But no player is in the wrong if they are in an organization where the incentive is more to break the rules in order to become that powerful leader some day.

[Veselka]

You can follow the rules as much as you like. It doesn't guarantee the "corporate" idea of success. Sometimes rule breakers will find themselves getting promoted over rule followers. Sometimes the opposite is true.

Of course you should do what your PC would do and buckle in for the ride either way.

[Pariah]

I just wanna be clear, rule breaking doesn't always have to even have a thing to do with skill gain.  Since I play almost entirely wilderness based classes, it just happens that way.

But in my view rule breaking is more, do I want to follow this rule or not.

Not JUST I wanna break this rule so I can learn to skin better.

Seems like folks are having a problem finding the middle ground.

[Veselka]

Are they though? This seems like a thread about a non issue. PCs have no problem breaking rules, they have been successfully doing it for the 20 years I've played the game. What they sometimes struggle with is the consequences of being caught.

[X-D]

Alesan: I put it in quotes for a reason, I have no need to go back and read it. And I in fact pointed out that it is a viable word as such people, IRL and IG feel like robots. Could the OP have worded things different sure. But He did not say "dumb robot" That has quite a bit different meaning then simply "robot" One is more insulting and you used the more insulting term and attributed it to another player who never used it.

I pointed that fact out. Now I point out that you seemed to have gotten butt hurt and then posted in a manner to justify that butt hurt by making it seem as if somebody said something they did not. And then you went on to add "not playing the game right" As if somebody had said that and nobody did.

[X-D]

As to the rest.

I find that there are many newer players that actually have an issue with seperating IC rules and OOC rules, While OOC is the rules of game conduct to the player and should be followed if at all possible. The second is rules set down by Player Characters IN the game (even if written by staff or staff player colab, it is still considered IC that some PC or npc or vnpc of rank made known) and as such should be dealt with by your PC as a real person.

Take the rule on rape, That is an OOC rule on the player, Does such a thing happen in a world like Zalanthas, Yes, it does, It even says so in the docs, See half-elf or mul. But We, the Players cannot enact it in any way and breaking that rule will get staff on your ass with OOC consequences. While The rule on leaving the gates was put in place by a PC of some rank and breaking that rule and getting caught has IG consequences.

Next, If the clan rules are too stifling....BTC...I am not kidding, all the IC rules of every clan in the game have changed MANY MANY MANY times over the years and almost all the time it was done or at least pushed by players.

Take the Byn 2 days off, That has not been the case MANY times. But any time it gets lower it does not take long for players to see that the lowering of PC interaction OUTSIDE the compound is actually bad for RP and the clan.

It has even been higher, but then people get bored the other direction and break like city rules more often or you get much higher attrition and complaints from lower play time people because they joined the clan to spar and every time they log in for the 2 hours they have it is a day off.

I have changed the Byn schedule with every sergeant I have had, usually to help the players/pcs in the clan at the time.

[Alesan]

Alesan: I put it in quotes for a reason, I have no need to go back and read it. And I in fact pointed out that it is a viable word as such people, IRL and IG feel like robots. Could the OP have worded things different sure. But He did not say "dumb robot" That has quite a bit different meaning then simply "robot" One is more insulting and you used the more insulting term and attributed it to another player who never used it.

I pointed that fact out. Now I point out that you seemed to have gotten butt hurt and then posted in a manner to justify that butt hurt by making it seem as if somebody said something they did not. And then you went on to add "not playing the game right" As if somebody had said that and nobody did.

If there was no negative connotation intended by that post, then I stand corrected.

[X-D]

The passive aggressive reply.

But ask yourself, why does it matter if there is?

I do not know why I bother when I know better. Last post on this line for me.

[Pariah]

Seems to be a very polarizing topic for sure.

But yeah, we need to keep it civil or they will shut it down.

Disagree with me or anyone else all you want, but don't be mean or a dick about it.