Feedback spin-off: Player agency, power and trust

[Maso]

New post since I didn't want to turn the feedback thread into a debate but there seems to be a fairly common theme within a lot of the feedback posts - well there are a few common themes but there's one standout that seems perhaps a little ill considered.

While yes, absolutely I want to see player ideas for plots supported and I would love to see staff trying their hardest to find ways to say Yes or.. No but how about this.. instead of more often no.. there is also a limit to what they can do.

Please don't forget that they, like us, are also older, with jobs and responsibilities and partners and pets and kids and have way less time available to them and still somehow manage to support this game, and us and continue to build upon it and improve it.

So when you ask for more player agency, for your PCs to have more world-changing decision making power out of the box.. when you ask for trust and complain it takes too long to build it, too long to work your PC up to a position of world-affecting trust.. think about what you are asking for.

Every time a plot veers out of what is available within the coded world and into the realm of needing staff support you are talking about hours of someone else's life being devoted to you and your idea. If you want to start a war or build a village or rob a bank you will potentially need tens if not hundreds of actual man hours on the staff side to support that with planning, building, organisation, animating and making sure it all runs smoothly.

So when staff expect us to put in time and effort to grow our PCs into that position of power and trust before they will do that for us, it's because they also don't deserve to have their time wasted. They need to be able to see that we will also be able to commit to seeing whatever it is through and that we have earned that investment of their time (time which is then likely taken away from other players). If we're unwilling to invest in our PCs then why should the staff? And if we don't have the time or energy now to put into those kinds of roles then the answer is just not play them, but we shouldn't then complain about it.

Likewise in BIG plots like the one we have just seen.. there can only be so much wriggle room for player agency, because again, the time and energy to build everything required for a plot like that just simply cannot account for every possible option. But, I personally believe that there are likely many options there and within that last plot there were surely opportunities for players to shift the course of things if they had made the right moves. On that vein, I'm sure there definitely were some player actions that have had some impact - we just won't always know it. But huge impact? How could that work? If a player does something that shifts the story line dramatically, staff would basically need to drop their lives, bin the work that's already happened and somehow materialise the new world changes instead. Of course some railroading is required in storylines like that. They can't commit their lives to reactively building the game around us.. that would be.. nuts. The work required for this game isn't even close to DM'ing DnD, it is a whole other beast entirely.

As it stands, when I look around the game right now, I see a lot of player agency being supported by staff. There are players all over doing their own cool shit and staff working hard to help them make that happen. Not for me, cause I'm lazy and I expect nothing in return for my laziness, but definitely for the players who still can and want to put in their time - and they deserve it.

Basically, can we be some kind of reasonable about our expectations here? There's a huge amount of useful feedback in that thread, but this particular topic just feels a little unfair on our fellow human beings. Just had to put that out there in case.. it.. hadn't been considered.

[Dar]

In all honesty, I've found staff more supportive of my initiatives then otherwise.  The coveat was all the same. Do not be the only one involved.

I never understood the need to be promoted for nobles. For templars I get. They get new spellz and abilities. But aside that, what's the point? Any stuff you couldn't do due to staff inability or opposition you will still be unable to do.  I guess it gives you an advantage over other nobles that get out into the game with now lesser rank then yours is. But then it means you are asking staff to give you a coded advantage in politicallu ultimately social gameplay. Which is all kinds of meh.


I'd be curious to hear some year long stories where glass ceiling for nobility/mercantile prevented a player from achieving something awesome.  Unless 'something awesome' was ultimately a request for staff to code shit up.

[Dresan]

I am curious about this too.

If the player wants to gain authority and agency to literally say I want to march an army to Redstorm and destroy it. The amount of effort from staff, players and impact to the overall game just to meet the whims of one individual no matter how well RPed they thing they are in their head is a bit out of whack.

The only thing I could see it being a problem people are finding it difficult to drive conflicts with each other (as in other sponsored roles and organizations). To the point they become so bored they go after dusty small time indies because its easy and has no consequences.

[Pariah]

At work so have to make this quick.

More aspects of the world need to have moving parts.

For example Red Storm has no actual authority roles outside the crimson wind players.

It takes too long to get gmh gear.  Sometimes the merchant is not around the warehouse, other times they don't have the authority to sell x thing.  Should be easier and not require so many hoops to buy stuff or sell it.

That's all I got for now.  More later when I have time to think on it

[Dresan]

For example Red Storm has no actual authority roles outside the crimson wind players.

Rinth has no authority figures other than the gangs too. I enjoy playing in these places specifically for those reasons.

It takes too long to get gmh gear.  Sometimes the merchant is not around the warehouse, other times they don't have the authority to sell x thing.  Should be easier and not require so many hoops to buy stuff or sell it.

It would be nice if there were a way to buy stuff from special shop at higher cost, only finding that 1 salarr merchants if its a completely custom unique order or we want very nice discount.

[adri]

It takes too long to get gmh gear.  Sometimes the merchant is not around the warehouse, other times they don't have the authority to sell x thing.  Should be easier and not require so many hoops to buy stuff or sell it.

I think in most cases this is true, but if you've ever played a Merchant, you (not you specifically, Pariah) definitely understand the struggle a little more. I think some of the warehouses could be be better stocked with the more popular items. Personally, I would rather play a merchant who could rapidly fill orders for less of a profit and keep the coins and content in motion than a merchant with a ridiculous personal bankroll who makes people wait two or more actual weeks because I can't get anyone to bring me x, y or z.

[Pariah]

It takes too long to get gmh gear.  Sometimes the merchant is not around the warehouse, other times they don't have the authority to sell x thing.  Should be easier and not require so many hoops to buy stuff or sell it.

I think in most cases this is true, but if you've ever played a Merchant, you (not you specifically, Pariah) definitely understand the struggle a little more. I think some of the warehouses could be be better stocked with the more popular items. Personally, I would rather play a merchant who could rapidly fill orders for less of a profit and keep the coins and content in motion than a merchant with a ridiculous personal bankroll who makes people wait two or more actual weeks because I can't get anyone to bring me x, y or z.

Agreed, I can be the richest person in the world by salting and mining obsidian, but the coins have a limited impact realistically in the world.

As one of the hunters that "try" and sell shit to merchants.  It's damn near impossible.

Mostly because there isn't enough demand for things made from said stuff.

That's why I think there needs to be resources sinks instituted in game so the lower tier, hunters and grebbers don't get saddled with tons of shit they can't offload.

But these are all very complex balancing acts that who knows when if ever they will be fixed.

[Dar]

Are you guys saying you're not playing the game because it takes too long to get GMH gear?

[Pariah]

Are you guys saying you're not playing the game because it takes too long to get GMH gear?

No that's the other thread.

This one is about players having power to do shit.

My comment was that sometimes even the sponsored roles can't or won't do their job because "reasons" such as when I'm like, hey I'm a rich salt baron from the planes of salt, I want that 3k set of salarr swag, sell it to me and they go.  "I can't because my auntie told me I need approval to sell every bit of my cool shit."

(Situations are exaggerated for emphasis)

[Dar]

Are you guys saying you're not playing the game because it takes too long to get GMH gear?

No that's the other thread.

This one is about players having power to do shit.

My comment was that sometimes even the sponsored roles can't or won't do their job because "reasons" such as when I'm like, hey I'm a rich salt baron from the planes of salt, I want that 3k set of salarr swag, sell it to me and they go.  "I can't because my auntie told me I need approval to sell every bit of my cool shit."

(Situations are exaggerated for emphasis)

So this is an interesting scenario actually.

I've had merchants who refused to sell the High Prestige gear to Salt Barons.   Was it because I had difficulty procuring it? Not exceptionally.  Was it because I didn't want money? In part ... yes.
Spamming forage Salt for a week should not mean that you can procure gear that is out of reach for people who serve Nobility and such similar like.  In these situations, it's easier to blame the bureaucracy of staff, then to snub you.  Because you're a grebber and is therefore USEFUL. But you're also a filthy grebber and therefore lower class then a noble's aide.  Even if that noble's aide is useless completely.

So how do I get out of selling stuff to you that you have the money for, but not the social standing to have? I blame it on delays that are out of my control. 

[Maso]

So how do I get out of selling stuff to you that you have the money for, but not the social standing to have? I blame it on delays that are out of my control.

You shouldn't be implying OOC (and staff related) reasons for actual IC motivations. You should try to think of other 'excuses' that won't make the player of the other character automatically think it's an OOC delay. It takes away their ability to respond and tackle it IC'ly and it also creates OOC frustrations with the game when it should be creating IC frustrations. That's the merchant equivalent of getting out of a PK by saying you have to log because your take-out has arrived. :p

[Pariah]

I'm at work so my posts are very straight forward and not very fleshed out due to hiding it as productive work shit.

However I will say even on my saltiest of salter characters I was never unknown.

I had relationships with folks from beggars to nobles and my social class was not "low".

Just salting gets the coin.  So to think of the method of getting coin as a judge of the character without research or Roleplay is a disservice.

I feel you should have spent some time asking about that guy icly than coping out because you felt that if they don't wear silk boxers or hang out in the city with nobles all day they are beneath you.

Now, I also realize that there are twinky fucks who don't do anything but grind coins and expect it to be the path to success, but at least for me, that's never how I play.

[Dar]

So how do I get out of selling stuff to you that you have the money for, but not the social standing to have? I blame it on delays that are out of my control.

You shouldn't be implying OOC (and staff related) reasons for actual IC motivations. You should try to think of other 'excuses' that won't make the player of the other character automatically think it's an OOC delay. It takes away their ability to respond and tackle it IC'ly and it also creates OOC frustrations with the game when it should be creating IC frustrations. That's the merchant equivalent of getting out of a PK by saying you have to log because your take-out has arrived. :p

For example?   

I mean the usual response to these is, "Your goods are on back order. You'll be notified when they arrive."   It 'is' understood as staff have not loaded the items yet.  I can safely say that IRL I am also in sales and when I am not ready to tackle a project, I tend to extend the delivery/production times just as well. Even if the goods are sitting in my warehouse already.

[Barsook]

In all honesty, I've found staff more supportive of my initiatives then otherwise.  The coveat was all the same. Do not be the only one involved.

I know this is echoed in other posts in other ways, but I guess you are right. Maybe it's something that I need to be aware of and work harder on.

I never understood the need to be promoted for nobles. For templars I get. They get new spellz and abilities. But aside that, what's the point? Any stuff you couldn't do due to staff inability or opposition you will still be unable to do.  I guess it gives you an advantage over other nobles that get out into the game with now lesser rank then yours is. But then it means you are asking staff to give you a coded advantage in politicallu ultimately social gameplay. Which is all kinds of meh.

Going to say the same about GMH merchants/agents which is also meh.

I'd be curious to hear some year long stories where glass ceiling for nobility/mercantile prevented a player from achieving something awesome.  Unless 'something awesome' was ultimately a request for staff to code shit up.

Agreed, because I feel like I can think of many from the golden-day era of the 2000-2010 years.

[creeper386]

For me, I think it seems there are rules such as, who can discuss say, orders or anything, that prevents say GMH from getting help filling orders. I've seen it in other cases as well. It's never fun to be logged in, and having ICly the ability to do what need to be done but get to tell them they can wait several RL days before someone else logs in to get it sorted.

I'm not talking about, I want to build x, or see y done or anything grandiose. And I know a lot of the GMH issues and delays is due to ordering some special stuff that needs to be loading. or custom crafting. That wait is at least understandable.

I'd rather see more characters be giving IC trust for IC items and if they break it have IC consequences then have to have certain arbitrary rules.

[Halcyon]

Are you guys saying you're not playing the game because it takes too long to get GMH gear?

No that's the other thread.

This one is about players having power to do shit.

My comment was that sometimes even the sponsored roles can't or won't do their job because "reasons" such as when I'm like, hey I'm a rich salt baron from the planes of salt, I want that 3k set of salarr swag, sell it to me and they go.  "I can't because my auntie told me I need approval to sell every bit of my cool shit."

(Situations are exaggerated for emphasis)

So this is an interesting scenario actually.

I've had merchants who refused to sell the High Prestige gear to Salt Barons.   Was it because I had difficulty procuring it? Not exceptionally.  Was it because I didn't want money? In part ... yes.
Spamming forage Salt for a week should not mean that you can procure gear that is out of reach for people who serve Nobility and such similar like.  In these situations, it's easier to blame the bureaucracy of staff, then to snub you.  Because you're a grebber and is therefore USEFUL. But you're also a filthy grebber and therefore lower class then a noble's aide.  Even if that noble's aide is useless completely.

So how do I get out of selling stuff to you that you have the money for, but not the social standing to have? I blame it on delays that are out of my control.

If we had 200 players on at a time and several tiers of pc merchants available to service needs, I'd agree.   As it stands, I think Salarr pcs should procure gear for elves, salt foragers, byn runners, and other dirty folk, as well as the priveleged.   I've had 2 real month delays on getting a 50 sid sparring knife, or obsidian forearm plates.

[creeper386]

I think Halcyon touches on something that I see problems with. Is that often it seems sponsored roles aren't allowed to delegate things out. Which means working for them kind of sucks. You get to see someone slammed busy while you can't actually do anything.

And I get Merchants even from the family still have hire ups they answer to. And the family can't risk someone tarnishing their name. But having so much stuff go through one PC, not only is a lot of work load for that player, but also means that if that PC dies or is stored, shit gets shut down again until a new PC replaces them.

[Pariah]

I think Halcyon touches on something that I see problems with. Is that often it seems sponsored roles aren't allowed to delegate things out. Which means working for them kind of sucks. You get to see someone slammed busy while you can't actually do anything.

And I get Merchants even from the family still have hire ups they answer to. And the family can't risk someone tarnishing their name. But having so much stuff go through one PC, not only is a lot of work load for that player, but also means that if that PC dies or is stored, shit gets shut down again until a new PC replaces them.

Might also be the change in staff.

I've found them more reasonable lately, but also probably because I'm not treating them like shit like I used to.

But even that aside, I think they are more permissive than before.  I was tempted to go for that Kadius call last time, but I have a character I'm enjoying now and didn't want to stop.

The reason I was tempted was just to see how far I could go in the regard you're mentioning.

I feel merchant house merchants tend to be too careful for fear of reprisal.  I think in the current climate they could probably be a little more loosey goosey.

[creeper386]

My last experience was beginning of this year.

And it's not a situation where I'm like, Damn staff not letting me do stuff. Although maybe that's the case I don't know.

But I think it's OOC rules and structure in place, that honestly I'd rather see moved more IC. I mean, if a merchant is having someone do business who starts pissing people off, sure maybe a staff member has to step in at some point, but I'd rather let the merchant handle their business and delegate as needed and let most of the fallout be IC. Instead of avoid it completely with rules.

[Pariah]

My last experience was beginning of this year.

And it's not a situation where I'm like, Damn staff not letting me do stuff. Although maybe that's the case I don't know.

But I think it's OOC rules and structure in place, that honestly I'd rather see moved more IC. I mean, if a merchant is having someone do business who starts pissing people off, sure maybe a staff member has to step in at some point, but I'd rather let the merchant handle their business and delegate as needed and let most of the fallout be IC. Instead of avoid it completely with rules.

I think we are in agreement here.

I think let them fail and deal with the consequences is the way to do it.  But I think a lot of the folks who are in the positions are playing it SUPER CAREFUL in fear of those corrections.