Game Feedback Wanted

[Halcyon]

    I really think that would be a huge part of solving the issue of everyone playing lone rangers, and of people running around fighting obscure shit for nonsensical reasons just to raise their combat skills. People don't do that because they hate the game or whatever, they do it because they've found it to be the only acceptable way to accomplish their goals. Many of these cheesy methods have been nerfed in one way or another, but nothing was really done to offer alternatives, and I frankly think that a number of players have probably quit the game because there we no more ways for them to train up a character to the point where it's exciting to play. Not everyone can play during peak hours, and not everyone wants to play in the Byn over and over again.
   

Agreed.  The same clans wont give an inch to hire or retain a high agi human or "sparring elf".   If coded performance isnt important to the story, just set up an ooc carriage service between all points the GMH want to goto, and be done with escorts.    If escorts and merc service are interesting parts of the story, lets logically support those clans.

[Pariah]

Not trying to critique or go against any sorta feedback, but I noticed some of you feel how I felt.

Before I realized that you can totally break the rules in the Byn.

Yes you're not supposed to go out alone.  But do you think the Sergeants stand at the gates and check every cloaked figure that walks out? Nah they got better shit to be doing.

I had a Bynner who still advanced and branched his outdoor abilities simply by sneaking out on the days off.  Keep a different cloak in your pack, change somewhere out of the way and not around vnpcs.  Then ride/walk out the gate and enjoy life.

Just make sure you have nothing unique on you like a one of a kind set of armor or very rare weapon etc and your golden.

If you're worried about staff blowback, I wouldn't worry about that either.  I put it in my reports that I was doing it and steps I took to conceal myself and my identify.

It actually can put a bit of fun into the process of breaking the rules because it makes it a little exciting when you come across people outside and have to decided to find reasons to move on or avoid them.

[The Gruffalo]

if you join <snip> one of the militias <snip> it slows down your skill growth to such an insane degree

False. Staff introduced a means for training even when playtimes don't match up with clan mates.

I'd like to see it introduced for more low-pop clans.

[creeper386]

I think another thing that comes up especially around limited play times is trying to keep things IC, but it's near impossible to arrange anything when people only play on the weekends or strange times to try and arrange something without being OOC.

I don't really have a problem dropping an OOC and being like "When would this work." but I'm uncomfortable being the first person to broach it as at least in the past people have been sticklers on that sort of thing.

I'm very iffy of some sort of offline communication system. Because I'd hate to log in to a hundred way messages. But it'd be nice to have SOMETHING to better organize events.


In regards to the grind thing. That's one of the things I like about Armageddon. I like I start as a shit nobody and there is effort put into being useful at something.

[Dresan]

Before I realized that you can totally break the rules in the Byn.

A PC resorting to do twinkish behavior to train skills is a bad thing. 

[Jihelu]

You shouldn't have to 'break the rules' for combat fails when whoever you work for is a mercenary company with a training hall. Or even if you have a training barracks (most noble houses)

[Pariah]

You shouldn't have to 'break the rules' for combat fails when whoever you work for is a mercenary company with a training hall. Or even if you have a training barracks (most noble houses)

Before I realized that you can totally break the rules in the Byn.

A PC resorting to do twinkish behavior to train skills is a bad thing.

What?  No, you guys are misunderstanding me.  I'm not saying be a twink and fight a tuural bare handed or anything.

I'm just saying that because they TELL YOU, you can't leave the city, doesn't mean you can't.

I'm talking about social rules, not saying twink your way to success.  I very rarely ever get a character to higher than apprentice weapon skills.

If you want to go practice riding, skinning or (insert outdoor required skill) then roleplay your way to it.  Break the IC rules and go do it.

[X-D]

Just be realistic about your IG rule breaking. Again...like RL.

This is actually a point I have almost never had an issue with staff on BTW.

[Dresan]

If you want to discuss further maybe start another thread, but jobs where you get food and water are supposed to be valued. Breaking the rules, risking your job and life outside the walls just to train skills doesn't sound IC, it sounds OOC twinky.

Instead policies should be changes to allow you the freedom to do what you want on days off. Heading outside on your day off so you can make an extra buck and afford a better piece of armor that might save your life or perform better on the next escort is a better reason then just breaking the IC rules just to train skills.

But again i digress, this is a conversation for another thread.

[Bogre]

What are some of the causes that have made you play less or not at all?


The exasperation and disappointment of losing characters in which a lot of creative work was sunk in; not from the wilderness or dangerous situations but through player's inconsiderate actions - people going for 'gotta kill so and so' as conflict resolution #1, or no-story, no real reason quick kills out of no where...there's things that just seem like I'm trying to play a collaborative storytelling game and others are playing PVP sim.


What are some changes you think would benefit the game and draw more people - new and returning?

Advertising in DND forums, in r/MUD, facebook, etc.

I think the biggest thing would be addressing the reputation of toxicity the community has in a wider sense. If you see Arm mentioned on reddit, there's a ton of people who will just jump to bashing it. There's been really big divides between former players and staff, former staff and players, players and players, etc. People seem to get driven away way more than they are encouraged to come back. Maybe there's just toxic people that get banned, and rage quitters abounding - I'm generally too forgiving and benefit-of-the doubting to assess that stuff. But from my place on the sidelines it just seems that more people walk away angry than shake hands across the table.


What sort of things should do we more of?

The recent game moving plots (from the spooky stuff, to the salt flat war, to the most recent) by Shabago, Rath et al have really been awesome. Every time something like that comes up I'm drooling to play and get stuck in. There were really a lot of moments that were just 'Armageddon' to me.

The code updates are also really exciting - wagons, spells (I've always adored the depth of the magick system, and more secrets/complexity/utility is just awesome). The updates to the classes and subguilds are also very welcome. Like the code is clearly in an upward trend - and thus the question of why isn't the playerbase?

(also do more open silt winds / dune stalkers)

What sort of things should we do less of?

Option removing and clan removing- I think that obviously recently this has decreased. The world is cool, vast, varied - let players have fun in exploring it and playing different roles and backgrounds.

[Qzzrbl]

What are some of the causes that have made you play less or not at all?


The exasperation and disappointment of losing characters in which a lot of creative work was sunk in; not from the wilderness or dangerous situations but through player's inconsiderate actions - people going for 'gotta kill so and so' as conflict resolution #1, or no-story, no real reason quick kills out of no where...there's things that just seem like I'm trying to play a collaborative storytelling game and others are playing PVP sim.

Y'know, I've been half-assed working at coming up with what kinda got me losing interest in the game in the way-way back but reading this took me right to it. There was probably more to it on my end, but there was definitely a shift after a handful of actually nonsense deaths.

I can't say I've been PK'd a whole lot compared to a lot of you, but I can say it's only really been "justified" by the aggressor like what, four times if memory serves?

It really doesn't take very many "wow this pc ive never met is really straight murdering me for no reason a day or two out of chargen" moments stacked on top of general burnout to sour the whole shebang.

and I get it, zalanthas big spooky scary dangerous but rly come on ppl

[MeTekillot]

What are some of the causes that have made you play less or not at all?


The exasperation and disappointment of losing characters in which a lot of creative work was sunk in; not from the wilderness or dangerous situations but through player's inconsiderate actions - people going for 'gotta kill so and so' as conflict resolution #1, or no-story, no real reason quick kills out of no where...there's things that just seem like I'm trying to play a collaborative storytelling game and others are playing PVP sim.

I think this could be remedied with an idea I had a while back about being able to cripple other characters as an alternative to killing them. I think we currently lack for impactful actions to have on the game and other players besides killing each other or building a shop.

[wizturbo]

What are some of the causes that have made you play less or not at all?


It all comes down to the amount of time it takes to enjoy Armageddon.  To me, the biggest barrier of entry is that finding the best kind of content the game has to offer takes a lot of time.

You start from scratch with every character in Armageddon.  I've played a lot of characters, and I don't think a single one of them has ever felt "established" unless I've had at least 3 days played on it minimum.  And by "established" I mean, they know a dozen or so people in-game, have joined some kind of clan or social group and achieved a modicum of trust, have trained up a few skills, and as a result of all this they've started to get involved in plotlines at an entry level.  In short, I've found a sustainable source of content, but it's taken ~72 hours of RL time. 

As a perma-death game where you can only have one character, you can expect your relationships to disappear at a steady clip.  This up front investment to find content requires constant maintenance, or you will find yourself back on the "outside" of things.  Of course, if your character dies, all of this starts over from scratch again.



Some ideas on how to reduce this barrier to entry:

1.  Post lite-sponsored roles with the intent of giving non-leaders a way to jump into the action immediately as established clan members.  Examples include starting play as an Aide, Byn Trooper, Private, Junior Merchants, etc.  These roles could be turned on/off for certain clans as needed, with some popular options potentially being evergreen.  Use Karma to limit how often these can be used.

2.  Make more plotlines publicly available knowledge.  "Find out IC" is a catch phrase we've all used for decades in Armageddon, but at this point I just don't have the time or energy to keep up with it.  I don't mean post every Templar's secret plans on the GDB, but not knowing what major activities are going on just makes it harder and harder to return.

[Evilone]

Sorry for the long post. Had some time to think.

What are some of the causes that have made you play less or not at all? *Firstly I don't like to play generic PC Amos. Usually I will have some sort of character concept in mind and some important background detail to give it an interesting history, and then if things seem to click when I am IG, I will fully flesh out a background for my PC, and its family history etc. Once I get into things I can get quite addicted and my play time skyrockets. With my latest PC I was averaging about 3-4 hours a day on work days, and my days off doing like 12+hr days in Arm. I was waking up, sitting at the computer, and then only getting off for bed, completely drained. This was mostly during the lead up to the War, but
I do find lots of enjoyment in the early days of a 'character sheet' and working on skills, as well as IC relations and building reputation.

The little hub we had going in Morrins Village was actually pretty fun, and I was constantly seeing PC's, and it was good to try and be involved in a greater story as it gave me some bigger purpose. I am a huge Tuluk fan, always have been, but I have to say it's been a little disappointing as the population 'seems' to have dwindled in the north since the war plot ended.

Why do we play Armageddon? I think the answer is different for everyone. I play because I enjoy making a fictional fantasy character, and getting to portray that person and make them as real as possible. I like to be the hero, or the notorious villain, or just someone who is unique and offers something special to people around him. I like to have a specialty, and be important to someone.

The more time I am playing my character, the more I can develop my skills. I'll be honest about that. I do get excitement when I see skills go up. Some skills are hard work, and its satisfying watching them go up. I much prefer it than the old days of not seeing any skill level. Once my skills are nearly max, all my time can then be shifted to other goals as my survivability goes up hugely with my skills. Being experienced at the game, I would say I know many ways to make coin and get rich once my character is skilled enough, although it can require lots of time.

What can be a turn off for me is if I am spending 3-4hrs a day on average, with also a couple of big days a week in the game working on my character, developing IC relations, and becoming rather wealthy, that I then have to wait RL months of time for certain things just because of what I can see as only an OOC staff trust thing, e.g. Player Created Clans warehouses and clan halls etc. I've more than got the coin to cover bribes, costs, I don't see any reason to have to wait.

I've played PC GHM merchants and I remember when requesting items not craftable and only being able to do an order 1/week, so I don't push merchants hard when waiting for quality wares, but a week is about my limit of patience, and if I am waiting to be able to spend my coin, I am less inclined to have a constant need to play and go mining, or foraging, or hunting, or crafting more and selling because it's coin going straight to the bank, and I can't spend it. I want more readily available money sinks in the game, so I have a constant need to acquire more wealth and spend it, which will encourage me to play more.

I may have burnt myself out with all the time I was putting in, but I haven't really played in about 3 RL weeks, and have been messing about in WoW again, and playing PUBG, so I am one of the people who has just suddenly disappeared, and that's part of my reasoning behind it.

I think staff need LESS red tape and have MORE freedoms. It's probably a scary thought for some, and in days of old such can lead to what appears to be favoritism to certain players as certain unique abilities or artifacts get bestowed and other abuses, but I just don't care, and trust staff enough to handle it not like the past. I want more fantasy, and more staff plots. I want a seasonal world plot focuses.

This season, come play Armageddon Mud and get swept up in the Horrors of the Silt Sea. Next season, we will commence the Awakened Dragonthrall, and following that look forward to the Mantis King.

Just google Plots and Adventures D&D and you can easily come up with hundreds of simple plot ideas or major ones. As much as I enjoy combat in Arm, I do get bored of killing generic carru #26, and scrab #205. If there are different, or unique enemies to potentially combat, and get rewards from, I'll be more inclined to be on, and trying to get involved.

Last thing for now as I am falling asleep at the keyboard. WAY back when I first got into playing RPI muds I much preferred FEM, HL, and SoI compared to Arm. One of these reasons was because I could easily distinguish the differences between gear levels, especially in armor and what was better, and as a beginner Arm was so much harder to understand. I wonder if other people found/find this difficult?
Typical medieval armor qualities are:
Plate>Chain>Scale>Ring>Hide>Studded>Leather>Cloth

Maybe some MORE transparency for such things, whether OOCly or skills IG that can determine what has better armor values, as it is a pretty important thing and as there have been many different standards and changes with staff over the years, armor values don't exactly match the descriptions, so the description makes it hard to judge from. Could even have a armor page on the website which more detail on armor values. If not an actual value, give it a low armor quality, mid quality, high quality.

Hide Armor - Armor value 10
Most common armor made from hide falls under this category. Chalton,
Carru, and Raptor are the main sources of Hide Armor.

Hope any of this helps. What I would like to put to staff, and I am not expecting any answer, but ask yourself, as staff, what would you like more of, and less of? What would keep you on your avatar and less on your PC?

[Sephiroto]

Echoing the last post, having some function to test the effectiveness of weapons/armor vs others or even subjectively would be a nice touch. Even as a veteran gear seems like a toss up. It's hard to know what's actually better across any of the possible fronts (durability, AC, mobility, weight, noise). The only exception that I'm aware of is the value skill, which can tell you the weight.

Overall, this ranks pretty low IMO compared to other feedback. It's a great QoL suggestion but won't really keep new players engaged.

[Jihelu]

Echoing the last post, having some function to test the effectiveness of weapons/armor vs others or even subjectively would be a nice touch. Even as a veteran gear seems like a toss up. It's hard to know what's actually better across any of the possible fronts (durability, AC, mobility, weight, noise). The only exception that I'm aware of is the value skill, which can tell you the weight.

Overall, this ranks pretty low IMO compared to other feedback. It's a great QoL suggestion but won't really keep new players engaged.

Value, or weapon skill, being able to assess damage when compared between two similar items would be nice.
'This does slightly more damage'
'This does a lot more damage'

[Veselka]

Eh. I kind of like that you can't min/max everything in the game, and just have to go with what looks cool or fits the PC's style, etc.

I wouldn't mind more of what Jihelu originally mentioned, just like levels of sturdiness or craftsmanship. And maybe only skilled craftspeople, or skilled warriors, could tell the difference.

So if you are a Master Armorcrafter, you can examine a piece of armor and see at the bottom.

"This looks <poorly crafted/moderately well-made/well-made/of excellent craftsmanship/masterfully made>'. Depending on your skill level, you might inadvertently think something is TIGHT when it's really 'MEH' when viewed by a master.

Similarly, if you are a very talented fighter, you might have some skill in discerning how well made weapons and armor are.

That'd be cool. But yeah, I wouldn't want to see comparisons of 'this is better than that'. It'll lead to the same Chads rocking Chadarmor and Chadweapons because they're the best.

[Veselka]

I've been thinking more about the OP request for feedback and gaining new players, and I have to push back a little bit at the concept of getting new players just for the sake of getting new players.

I think the 'Business Statement/Agenda' of ArmageddonMUD has to really be examined and possibly re-molded. I don't think it's the same as it was 10 years ago, or 20 years ago. I don't think all of the things people advertise about the game are necessarily true. Otherwise, you're going to get new players advertising X Y Z, and they will get in the game and see very little of that and move on.

Like...It's all and well to want new players and for them to stick around. But WHY should they stick around? What's in it for them?

Currently, things take way too long to achieve. People are used to playing a video game and getting dopamine. They want time investment to correlate to fun. A lot of us (particularly veterans) realize that the long periods of inactivity pay off for the adrenaline pumping moments. But those are becoming fewer and further between.

I think Staff needs to empower players to be bigger movers and shakers. Most leadership players are a bit PTSD about doing too much or without Staff permission, because we don't want to get 5-6 hours (or more) into plotting something that Staff is going to come along and kibosh. I think the stakes need to get raised. I think PCs should be able to rise to higher stations in their organizations, and those organizations need to be less intricate and 'necessary' to the survival of the game world. I think House Salarr should be able to fuck up so badly that it gets destroyed (Ala Negean and Uaptal), and another House rises to take its place in the void. I think players and Staff alike need to be a little (not a lot) less precious with their game and their PCs and their NPCs.

If the world were incredibly Dynamic, compared to other video games, it would really set it apart. Most video games require an inordinate amount of paid coder time and developer time to alter the game and create DLC. MUDs can be changed so much easier than graphical games. It is obviously still work. Re-skinning an NPC isn't boop-boop-beep done. BUT, compared to a graphical game, and a graphical game company bureaucracy, ArmageddonMUD has it much, much easier when it comes to those things.

I would challenge Staff to 'knives down' in the Iron Chef competition. To act as lifeguards, where the swimming pool is filled with competent swimmers for the most part. To spend time creating and fomenting plots and obstacles and fun challenges.

I think the request tool has overall been a great tool for accountability and reference, and a mediocre or poor tool for game plots and the game world at large. Before the request tool, communication between Staff and Players was minimal and only when required (when someone was doing something so off the rails it needed to be corrected). When I first started playing the game, I didn't even know the names of different Staff members, what their personalities might be like, or what they were working on. There's a happy medium here I think.

I think PC reports/Character Reports (for Leaders) should be once every couple weeks or once a month. Honestly, they aren't resolved quick enough to be relevant. By the time I finish writing a report and sending it, several plot points in the request may change the next day or over the next few days. Many of the points in them are moot by the time a Storyteller responds to it. It's additional work that I don't think is entirely necessary. I wish there was a better way of submitting reports that was IN THE GAME, not outside of it.

[MeTekillot]

1.  Post lite-sponsored roles with the intent of giving non-leaders a way to jump into the action immediately as established clan members.  Examples include starting play as an Aide, Byn Trooper, Private, Junior Merchants, etc.  These roles could be turned on/off for certain clans as needed, with some popular options potentially being evergreen.  Use Karma to limit how often these can be used.

I think this is an excellent idea. If the process could be semi-automated (sans the necessary approval process via staff), even better.

[Veselka]

1.  Post lite-sponsored roles with the intent of giving non-leaders a way to jump into the action immediately as established clan members.  Examples include starting play as an Aide, Byn Trooper, Private, Junior Merchants, etc.  These roles could be turned on/off for certain clans as needed, with some popular options potentially being evergreen.  Use Karma to limit how often these can be used.

I think this is an excellent idea. If the process could be semi-automated (sans the necessary approval process via staff), even better.

+1 as well. I mentioned as well that Staff could regularly assess plots/areas of the game where a lite-sponsored role might fit in (Secret Role Calls that they do currently seem to fill this function). It would be nice if they are designed for the experienced vet with not a ton of playtime, but a fun flavor role that can inject WOW into an area of the world.

[MeTekillot]

I think Staff needs to empower players to be bigger movers and shakers. Most leadership players are a bit PTSD about doing too much or without Staff permission, because we don't want to get 5-6 hours (or more) into plotting something that Staff is going to come along and kibosh. I think the stakes need to get raised. I think PCs should be able to rise to higher stations in their organizations, and those organizations need to be less intricate and 'necessary' to the survival of the game world. I think House Salarr should be able to fuck up so badly that it gets destroyed (Ala Negean and Uaptal), and another House rises to take its place in the void. I think players and Staff alike need to be a little (not a lot) less precious with their game and their PCs and their NPCs.

I also very much agree with this.

[Night Queen]

Adding link to this thread: https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,57222.msg1066390.html#msg1066390

[ItsMeg]

What are some of the causes that have made you play less or not at all?

• The time sink I tend to put into this game. I go from not playing at all to playing 100% of the time. There is no in between for me. I love this game. I still talk to new people about it, say how it's the best game I've ever played (especially when unemployed). But I cannot keep going on this cycle.
  
• Dying in shitty ways.
  
• Dying to random mobs.
  
• The fact I feel the need to be able to login for 2 hours minimum in order to interact with anyone.

What are some changes you think would benefit the game and draw more people - new and returning?

RPTS/HRPTs. Every now and then I'll check the Staff Announcements and I don't see much happening (last RPT was in June). It gives me zero motivation to login (Tuluk opening is cool. But it also just means it'll be harder to find people as a perpetually offpeak player).

[Harmless]

I have played arm on and off for years, and part of my pattern is to not play or be very inactive for short (month or two) or long stretches. In this time I have RL stuff like a job change or move or I have other games I wanna play more like a D&D campaign or Valheim or whatever, and since those games are social and involve my other friends (one of whom is a former Arm player themselves) I can't really play both when we get into it and I need to take a break from Arm as a result.

I had grievances with my current role but I recently put a question to staff and got an answer that told me that I could improve my character's position if I put a lot of work into a project or something and knowing just how many barriers  I would have to success turned me off even more and I decided to just make an IC reason to be almost completely inactive. The way things are with my role and my character's current clan, I am unsure that this is a big deal or not but I aired that out with staff as I said. (In my opinion my character's absence is not going to be too noticed right now).

I do want the game to live on because abruptly I will get a strong urge to play either my current character or a new character again, and my interest seems to refresh itself over time in a break, so I think this is just going to be my adult life pattern for now unless something even more time consuming like a kid enters my RL.

BUT, maybe we need to think about making certain roles less restrictive, especially when staff notices that their actions are limiting interaction or separating players more severely. Once again, being vague because I did pose this to a question request already.

[Greve]

But what's the excuse for the players that disregarded Tuluk as fluffy bunnies and hugging trees up until the very end?

They didn't know there was a years-long vendetta between two noble houses that drove plots related to subterfuge and intrigue as well as diplomacy and reconciliation

I'd say that indeed, they didn't know there was a years-long vendetta between two noble houses, because Tuluk is designed to deprive them of that knowledge. That's a point I've wanted to discuss a number of times throughout the years. I've always felt that Tuluk's secrecy-based design just didn't fit into a game of this type. The much-vaunted subtlety of the city is counterproductive to a game where everything is based on sharing and reacting to information. While Tuluk was never my main area of play, I have of course played there several times, and what always struck me was the way players were deprived of knowledge of anything they weren't directly involved with. It clearly hurt the roleplay there. Time and time again, something would happen and those who witnessed it were expressly instructed never to talk of it. It's built into the essence of the Tuluki setting. That'd be interesting in a novel or a movie, but not in an online roleplaying game where every player's enjoyment hinges on the extent to which they can learn about the interesting shit that's going on. Tuluk was a place where measures were actively taken to prevent people from learning what was happening.

It's one of those things that I had really hoped would change when the city was opened again. I figured that maybe with the place having been so insular for in-game decades, the stifling veil of secrecy might have become a thing of the past. But no, it's still very much a part of the documentation, so while I haven't played in Tuluk since its return, I expect it'll face the same problems. All the ezmode tree-hugging insinuations were always a little blithe, and while it can certainly be said that the obscene regeneration bonus of the grasslands and the (back then; now nerfed) stilt lizard sparring bonanza was a joke, the real beef that people had was the fact that you just didn't hear about what went on in Tuluk because players were bound by documentation-mandated secrecy. Those lucky few who got to witness something cool were routinely told not to tell anyone, under pain of literal death; and as a result, the majority of players found it to be a place where nothing happens. It was a stark contrast to Allanak where many scandals were deliberately publicized with gaudy executions, public bounties, and even the occasional case of exiling a character from the city but letting them live. In Tuluk, they just disappear without a trace. It may be thematic, but it doesn't generate a whole lot of roleplay. People often just assumed that the character was stored or the player quit.

Like I said, it makes perfect sense in a novel where you get to see the secret happenings through the eyes of point-of-view characters; but in a game like this, it was just not conducive to an inclusive and interesting roleplaying scene. It doesn't really look like that changed. A plot that makes no waves whatsoever to anyone outside of those directly involved is a plot that never happened to everyone else. Secrecy is a difficult thing to balance in a game like this, because while it has its place, basing an entire sphere of play around it will inevitably result in players getting bored whenever they're not privy to any of what goes on. The whole thing about "oh it's so easy to play in Tuluk that I can't stomach it" was always just a smokescreen because noone wanted to admit that they were unable to get included in whatever crowd had the monopoly on all the information at the time. It's safer to claim that the place is too ezmode for you than to admit that you felt excluded.