Zalanthan Religions?

[Void]

Wondering what the main religious groups are in Armageddon? Are there any major sects/cults?

It seems like Nak and Tuluk operate under some form of theocracy but I imagine people in this sort of world would have all sorts of beliefs about deities etc to explain the amazing creatures and landscape. I know some went into more relational ontology (everything is inherently interconnected) than autonomous (everything is discrete and separate) but it feels like we could have some cool stuff happen with little sects popping up, rivalries between them, some more intellectual RP around interpretations of text etc. Just an idea. Do let me know if this is already IG

[Shalooonsh]

Good question!  The issue here is though that Zalanthan systems of 'worship' are completely different from Earth's Religions.

For instance, in the south, people do not believe in Tektolnes as a benevolent overlord who protects them and guides them and blah blah blah.
They understand that he's a Dragon, and that they do not wish to be devoured, so they thank him for not devouring them and letting them live, while eating their enemies sometimes.  It's not belief that they'll be better for it, it's hope that he won't notice them or if he does, that he will find something more tasty to eat.

In the north, people do not "worship" Muk-Utep.  They understand that he has an understanding of the world that they couldn't even comprehend, and that all the suffering they're going through is due to some weird plan he might have.  They don't say "Walk in His Light" as a benediction --- they say it as a WARNING.  As in... "Don't do anything outside of his plan, or you're fucked."

Belief systems like this don't really have schisms as is typical with earthside religions.  We don't have fundamentalists, or extremists (unless you count Templars), and we don't have strays.  You either understand that they can crush you and that they deserve your thanks for not doing so... or you're a heathen who is outside of His Shadow/Light, and therefor beneath notice as well as often beyond worth.

[Hauwke]

Good question!  The issue here is though that Zalanthan systems of 'worship' are completely different from Earth's Religions.

For instance, in the south, people do not believe in Tektolnes as a benevolent overlord who protects them and guides them and blah blah blah.
They understand that he's a Dragon, and that they do not wish to be devoured, so they thank him for not devouring them and letting them live, while eating their enemies sometimes.  It's not belief that they'll be better for it, it's hope that he won't notice them or if he does, that he will find something more tasty to eat.

In the north, people do not "worship" Muk-Utep.  They understand that he has an understanding of the world that they couldn't even comprehend, and that all the suffering they're going through is due to some weird plan he might have.  They don't say "Walk in His Light" as a benediction --- they say it as a WARNING.  As in... "Don't do anything outside of his plan, or you're fucked."

Belief systems like this don't really have schisms as is typical with earthside religions.  We don't have fundamentalists, or extremists (unless you count Templars), and we don't have strays.  You either understand that they can crush you and that they deserve your thanks for not doing so... or you're a heathen who is outside of His Shadow/Light, and therefor beneath notice as well as often beyond worth.

Is this confirmation that the average person knows what a dragon is, and also further, knows that Tek is one?

Just for 100% clairity here.

[Inks]

I just want to say there are absolutely religions and extremists that aren't templars. I have played them, I have seen them. I have played a Tek worshipping cultist, I have played itinerant preachers, I have played a giant snake worshipping cult leader. These roles aren't the status quo but there are for sure religions, as well as truly faithful citizens. There are indeed people who believe the Highlord is just and benevolent, and are indoctrinated.

Anyone who has played in Nak in the last three years knows that Shaloonsh's take on religion here is incorrect. It should have said many or most people instead of all worship out of fear.

Kudos to all you zealots and extremists.

In answer to Hawke, there is literally a huge black steel dragon statue at the west gates which represents Tektolnes, a Dragon Temple on arena road, and a Dragon statue at the dome. So yes. People know what a dragon looks like, and that Tektolnes is referred to as the Dragon. Live dragons are a thing of myth and legend though (unless you have seen one then don't post it).

Also religions and cults are so cool when you stumble on them ig. Love it.

[Tuannon]

I don't think the majority of people know what a dragon is aside from iconography and folklore.. Also that wasn't what was asked, Tuannon.

I tend to think the city religions are aversive, as in.. give your lip service and pay your taxes and you won't get destroyed. Although the minutae vary based on who misunderstood help files or what have you (interpretation, basically). I think this is fine though as we can develop things based on multiple interpretations.

Some of the tribal religions are kind of animist, but again they vary based on who is what and where. I don't want to get too specific as it ruins the mystique and need for discovery.

I can't talk for all of them as I haven't played some of the human options and I don't do non-humans.

[9001]

For instance, in the south, people do not believe in Tektolnes as a benevolent overlord who protects them and guides them and blah blah blah.
They understand that he's a Dragon, and that they do not wish to be devoured, so they thank him for not devouring them and letting them live, while eating their enemies sometimes.  It's not belief that they'll be better for it, it's hope that he won't notice them or if he does, that he will find something more tasty to eat.

I'm having trouble reconciling this with Devotions in Allanak. Both in the ritual manner it's performed and attended, and the contents of it. Tektolnes is explicitly praised as benevolent, and his will described as divine and merciful. It feels like reinforcement from the virtual world that the Templarate does engage with the masses with a religious framing, and indication that the Templars are framing things in a similar manner in other virtual circumstances. Even if the subtext is to bow their heads and praise the Highlord out of fear of Him (or the Templars), it's hard to believe that with the (mostly uneducated) masses exposed to this day in, day out, generation after generation there isn't at least some portion of the population that isn't genuinely indoctrinated into believing that Tektolnes is divine and benevolent in his own terrible way and worshipping him (and his Templars to a lesser degree) as such.

For reference, here's the contents of the morning devotions. I'm hoping it's alright to post, given how common knowledge it should be.

Citizens of Allanak! Suk-Krath rises and calls us to another day of his Highlord's benevolent reign.
Praise the Highlord on whose blessings Allanak exists. Praise the servants who carry out his divine and merciful will.
Let the knowledge of the Highlord's munificence shine down upon you throughout the day.
Thank you, citizens. May you be blessed by the Highlord's service today.

[hyzhenhok]

The sorcerer-king cults in the big cities are absolutely religions, they are just written in the docs not to be because those docs were written by edgy atheist teenagers in the 90s.

You'd think edgy atheist teens would know you don't need gods to exist or be present for backwards, repressed people to develop religious and spiritual thought.

Heretics, fanatics, false prophets, competing interpretations of dogma ... all of these things exist in the game and have been PC roles in the past. We just don't call them those things because we don't it religion, which I think is fine.

[Inks]

Correct. Anyone who has ever played in Nak in recent years will know religions are indeed religions. I have even played someone who was raised by a pro-Tek cult in Nak, and that role was generally very well recieved. A powerful templar appreciated it too and protected the PC from persecution when he was preaching suffering and toil for the Highlord is how to show faith. Kudos to that guy.

Hyzenhok is spot on.

[Jihelu]

A world without Gods doesn't mean there is a world without religions, as atheists in the real world obviously know this. We've got plenty of religions in our world and 0 confirmation in gods, and 0 clerics, and 0 magic.
Yet people believe in all of those things.

Religions in Zalanthas:
I do agree there aren't really 'religions' in the traditional sense. Religions are pretty complicated things. There are BELIEFS and SPIRITUALITIES, maybe even some CLOSED SECT groups that you could consider religions, but we don't really have a religion in the traditional sense. The Southrons that worship Tektolnes don't really proselytize nor have a solidified canon of beliefs (We have the arena wall and thats about it), they don't have any ideas on what happens when they die (Which isn't only what religions do but is pretty important, which is silly. We should have northern/southern beliefs on death), though everytime I've seen people RP devotions (Atrium, that eastern dragon temple) it almost always appears to be a type of praying. On your knees, head down, eyes shut, murmering. People don't do this for 'ah yes he's just a dragon'.

Northern? I have no idea. I saw less religious-styled RP when I did play Tuluk ages ago and I have no idea how it is now, the north seems to be more of a Big Brother State compared to a 'Divine King' type one.

Tribals:
There are tribals that definitely have a religion of some sorts going on, tribals you can play in game. They've got beliefs on where you go when you die, what to do when you die, God-like figures (Or just spirits and the like). You've got all the makings of a religion I just don't think any of them really get on their knees and pray, but luckily religion doesn't require someone to get on their knees and pray to be a religion. These are CODED tribes, by the way, not some VNPC tribe someone made.

All a religion is, according to a basic google search, is "the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods."
(I've had classes in college about religion, by the way, so even I know it's generally 'more complicated' than that)
So even if we use that as the most bare bones definition: Southrons have a religion, the fear of Tektolnes (A super human controlling power), and most likely the North does to. Just because theirs doesn't live in a 'totally not spirit world' doesn't mean much. Theirs is a religion of fear and struggle.

So to really answer your question, "What are the major religious groups in Zalanthas"?
1: South/North city states.
2: A bunch of tribal groups that are coded, that don't actually mention their beliefs/spirituality in their page on the website so I won't list by name. There are around 3-4 of these, and they practice anything from ancestor worship, spiritual beliefs, have world creation theories that are supernatural in origin, and lots of other things.
3: Probably player made groups, VNPC groups and the like. I had one that had a number of Gods they paid homage to, you'll find tribals doing weird tribal shit everywhere. Ranging from "Me throw sand over shoulder to keep away bad luck spirit" to "I leave an offering of meat to the sky spirit out of devotion".

[Nao]

The devotions templar was not around when I first played the game - he's a recent-ish addition. I've always been finding him a little odd. Devotions didn't really fit into my understanding of Allanak and how I thought they saw Tek. I'm still not sure how they fit into the overall picture - other than maybe obvious lip service that most people would recognize as such.

There's always the odd exception, but I have a hard time seeing the average citizen in Allanak as religious in any way.

[Inks]

The devotions templar was not around when I first played the game - he's a recent-ish addition. I've always been finding him a little odd. Devotions didn't really fit into my understanding of Allanak and how I thought they saw Tek. I'm still not sure how they fit into the overall picture - other than maybe obvious lip service that most people would recognize as such.

There's always the odd exception, but I have a hard time seeing the average citizen in Allanak as religious in any way.

Nobody is saying religious citizens is the status quo. But there is a large enough minority that are.

More still are those that pay more than lip service for the favor of their betters, and drink the Kool-aid. It all makes perfect sense.

[Jihelu]

You don't sit outside the city in the hot burning sun, begging a lifeless statue of a monster for mercy, surrounded by people wearing silks and filth, unless you really believe that that statue up there is gonna help out /somehow/.

[Nao]

You don't sit outside the city in the hot burning sun, begging a lifeless statue of a monster for mercy, surrounded by people wearing silks and filth, unless you really believe that that statue up there is gonna help out /somehow/.

Maybe you're just there for show.

[Hestia]

You don't sit outside the city in the hot burning sun, begging a lifeless statue of a monster for mercy, surrounded by people wearing silks and filth, unless you really believe that that statue up there is gonna help out /somehow/.

I imagine many people are forced to go as a punishment for minor crimes against the city.  I also imagine many go to avoid problems. One problem that actually happened to someone:

You pissed off the Lady Fale's most recent Whatsit.  That Whatsit is known to Lord Templar Valika and is one of his favored commoners.  You attend Devotions and pretend that you're all into the whole rhetoric to show Templar Valika that he has nothing to worry about from you, you're a devoted, loyal citizen.  While you're out there getting sand-burns on your knees, you're plotting the Whatsit's death.

Names were changed but that's one of the many reasons why people would go out and kneel prostrate to the statue of the dragon.

When the Atrium was open, part of the morning routine was to pay homage to the dragon temple next door.  Not because they actually believed the dragon would be beneficial to them, but because their boss said to do it, it wasn't like being told to jump off the shield wall, so they did it.

There are no widespread and known "organized religions" in Zalanthas.  There are quasi-religious beliefs but there's a big difference:

Muk Utep is an actual person.  It's not some mysterious all-seeing being in the sky that no one gets to see until they go to heaven. It's not a promise of heaven at all.

Tektolnes is the Dragon. His Black Robes have real actual power and magickal horrifying scariness that is palpable. It's not about believing that you'll go to hell if you disobey.  It's more like you're already in hell, so your best chances at sanity are to pretend that you're okay with it.

[Jihelu]

If you like to imagine why people would be out there in a large crowd all day, that's nice. I'd like to see it added to a document then.

And I've already discussed the heaven and hell situation, so there's no use commenting on it. There are also cultures to have had living human beings, literal humans not Demi gods like we have in zalanthas, hold divine rule or provenance. So a 'it's not a religion cause Muk is just a guy!' Falls flat for me

[Veselka]

re·li·gion
/rəˈlijən/
Learn to pronounce
noun
noun: religion
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.

I mean, the fact that these people actually exist (or in a much more palpable sense than Yaweh or Allah) and doesn't rely on faith to elicit belief in their existence, should reinforce religion not eliminate it altogether.

The lack of religion really is a hold over from Dark Sun, where there are no Gods because something something astral plane something something doesn't exist in the pantheon.

There are many different kinds of religion, and our understanding of organized religion of course does not apply in Zalanthas.

I mean, think about this guy:






Doesn't he (and the cult that follows him) remind you of someone? Even down to the magic, the sorcerer-king, and the rule by power not by acceptance.

--

But Religion is treated like a four letter word in ArmageddonMUD, even though for all intents and purposes, people practice religion of some kind in tribes (animism, at the very least), and in the city states.

I think having a document that acknowledges that religion as we understand it IRL is not what religion is or can be in Zalanthas, and providing examples of what is acceptable, would do wonders for the hush-hush grey zone it's perpetually been in.

Just as with non-ubiquitous writing in a text-based medium, the lack of acknowledgment of Religion in the game (while still having organizations and areas that truly do have some form of religion) is a bit head-scratch worthy to me. I understand the company line must be towed. But it is natural for humans (and I imagine some of the other humanoid races) to explore the world spiritually, either through internal or external means. It makes it unnatural to constantly play nietzsche-esque nihilists who believe in nothing, Lebowski.

[ShaiHulud]

re·li·gion
/rəˈlijən/
Learn to pronounce
noun
noun: religion
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.

I mean, the fact that these people actually exist (or in a much more palpable sense than Yaweh or Allah) and doesn't rely on faith to elicit belief in their existence, should reinforce religion not eliminate it altogether.

The lack of religion really is a hold over from Dark Sun, where there are no Gods because something something astral plane something something doesn't exist in the pantheon.

There are many different kinds of religion, and our understanding of organized religion of course does not apply in Zalanthas.

I mean, think about this guy:






Doesn't he (and the cult that follows him) remind you of someone? Even down to the magic, the sorcerer-king, and the rule by power not by acceptance.

--

But Religion is treated like a four letter word in ArmageddonMUD, even though for all intents and purposes, people practice religion of some kind in tribes (animism, at the very least), and in the city states.

I think having a document that acknowledges that religion as we understand it IRL is not what religion is or can be in Zalanthas, and providing examples of what is acceptable, would do wonders for the hush-hush grey zone it's perpetually been in.

Just as with non-ubiquitous writing in a text-based medium, the lack of acknowledgment of Religion in the game (while still having organizations and areas that truly do have some form of religion) is a bit head-scratch worthy to me. I understand the company line must be towed. But it is natural for humans (and I imagine some of the other humanoid races) to explore the world spiritually, either through internal or external means. It makes it unnatural to constantly play nietzsche-esque nihilists who believe in nothing, Lebowski.

This is exactly how I feel and think. Thank you.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Having played in Allanak most of the time I've played this game, the Dragon is absolutely a "god" to his citizens, and while there's plenty of duck and dodge and scrape and make a show of it, there's plenty of people who also absolutely believe he saves and protects them in one way or the other, and has a chance to hear their prayers. It's always been a religion (in fact, the state-sponsored religion of Allanak), for the 22 years I've been playing, and so it's pretty confusing to hear 2 staff members take a different view of things.

When I played in Tuluk, I felt like worship of the Sun King was also a religion, one with less verbal enforcement of course, but just as serious behind the scenes.

[Brytta Léofa]

There are no widespread and known "organized religions" in Zalanthas.  There are quasi-religious beliefs but there's a big difference:

Muk Utep is an actual person.  It's not some mysterious all-seeing being in the sky that no one gets to see until they go to heaven. It's not a promise of heaven at all.

Tektolnes is the Dragon. His Black Robes have real actual power and magickal horrifying scariness that is palpable. It's not about believing that you'll go to hell if you disobey.  It's more like you're already in hell, so your best chances at sanity are to pretend that you're okay with it.

Tektolnes: it's not a religion, it's a relationship.

[Jihelu]

Also: Imagine the observations that would be made if people now met people in Zalanthas (And assuming they passively observed and weren't enslaved and murdered for it).
They would most definitely classify whatever the people are doing before the dragon statue, the water temple, and the other dragon TEMPLE as religious belief of some type. They actively use their Ruler/God's presence/name in their greetings and goodbyes (Which fits in a lot with...real societies.), they obey his servants (Through force or fear) as the Law, etc.

[Nao]

Also: Imagine the observations that would be made if people now met people in Zalanthas (And assuming they passively observed and weren't enslaved and murdered for it).
They would most definitely classify whatever the people are doing before the dragon statue, the water temple, and the other dragon TEMPLE as religious belief of some type. They actively use their Ruler/God's presence/name in their greetings and goodbyes (Which fits in a lot with...real societies.), they obey his servants (Through force or fear) as the Law, etc.

Are you sure? We call what's happening in North Korea a personality cult, not a religion.

[Jihelu]

You can find some pretty interesting information and commentary on the wikipedia page for North Korean religions. Basically, despite being an official atheist state you can find some religious tones to their system of government and rituals.

Probably has to do with some Confucian influence.

[Inks]

Having played in Allanak most of the time I've played this game, the Dragon is absolutely a "god" to his citizens, and while there's plenty of duck and dodge and scrape and make a show of it, there's plenty of people who also absolutely believe he saves and protects them in one way or the other, and has a chance to hear their prayers. It's always been a religion (in fact, the state-sponsored religion of Allanak), for the 22 years I've been playing, and so it's pretty confusing to hear 2 staff members take a different view of things.

When I played in Tuluk, I felt like worship of the Sun King was also a religion, one with less verbal enforcement of course, but just as serious behind the scenes.

This is how it is. Well put.

[najdorf]

Although not practically true, Shalooonsh's ideal creates a better environment for more MCB, where fear makes your loyalty constantly change. But since there is a healthy amount of MCB going on already, it may end up making everyone hyper paranoid.

[Dar]

Well, considering there are "Temples" to Tek, it kind of him to s that he is considered deity.

What may differ though is the type of deity. Let's take Greek mythology. They did not worship those gods because it would benefit them in the afterlife. In fact, they'd all be going to the same place. They worshipped them for real time, current life benefits.

Lay a sacrifice to Poseidon and you'll catch many fish. Don't and your boat will capsize and you'll drown.


Also. If muk utep is not a god, then why the hell are his templars called "the faithful".  What faith?

[Medivh]

From the helpfile for designing a tribal/nomad concept:
"Does your tribe worship anything? Do they have an enduring set of myths or gods? Do they believe in spirits?"

From "Creating a Magicker":
"Although it is acceptable that a character thinks of their element as a god or supernatural being, you may want to go for something a little bit more original."

Helpfiles speak to the players, and the references players would have. 'It is acceptable to use the player's understanding of what gods are to form the opinion of what a PC thinks of their element, as a magicker.' Similar case for tribal PCs and their tribes.

For city based PCs it isn't spelt out as well. However, there are no unique qualities that prevent Utep and Tek from being the figureheads of a religion. There are religions that are nontheistic, IRL. There are religions with no afterlife. There are religions with living, breathing beings you are meant to worship or practice for. There is even a religion for something everyone knows is fiction, Jedi.

The idea that that they can't be part of a religion requires redefining the term from how scholars and governments use it. If staff doesn't want us to use them as a religion, seems like it, then it is way more simple to just ask that we don't.

[Inks]

Well, considering there are "Temples" to Tek, it kind of him to s that he is considered deity.

What may differ though is the type of deity. Let's take Greek mythology. They did not worship those gods because it would benefit them in the afterlife. In fact, they'd all be going to the same place. They worshipped them for real time, current life benefits.

Lay a sacrifice to Poseidon and you'll catch many fish. Don't and your boat will capsize and you'll drown.


Also. If muk utep is not a god, then why the hell are his templars called "the faithful".  What faith?

#logic

[creeper386]

We'd have to rewrite some helpfiles too.

From Help Allanak, Tektolnes is call via some in game qoutes as "His Gloriousness" templars are refered to as soldier-priests. Like, Tek maybe a living breathing mortal form of some sort but overall religious definitely seems to be part of Allanak life in some degree or another.

[Jihelu]

Obviously they are atheist priests.

[Dar]

#logic

Albeit super heavily mispelled. Think I was typing on my phone with an autocorrect on the fritz.

[Dar]

There is an entire story about a templars crisis of faith during the siege of Allanak.

[mansa]

To me, when ArmageddonMUD says there are no religions in Zalanthas, the intent is to have a blanket statement that ultimately says "Do not apply Christianity in any aspect in game."

To me, this is to remind the players (of whom most have a westernized world view) that Zalanthas is an escapist roleplaying game.

That's how I take it.

[ShaiHulud]

This above.

[Dar]

Wistful sigh.


I remember attending a pyre ceremony of a templar with Samos officiating it. I was a dirty rinthi and I kept throwing out heretical thoughts about temilare and Tek in particular.

I got some serious mind fucking done to me:). Booming voice from the sky echoing in my head about bowing down, prostrating, and praying for mercy.

It was totally awesome. Changed his whole life outlook for an entire two rl days, before he got shanked in the rinth.

[Void]

I think this conversation is near impossible without defining religion first; something academics have struggled to do with anything close to consensus (Weber tried his best to avoid this task altogether despite writing heavily on religion). For instance, cults etc are excluded in some definitions and embraced in others. Without a clear idea of what religion means in this case people can easily be cross-communicating.

[HavokBlue]

I get what Shaloonsh said on the last page and I think maybe we're looking at Allanak specifically in this discussion with the wrong choice of words.

Worship of Tektolnes is a thing that is documented and depicted every single day in game, as has been pointed out. But that worship isn't based on a foundation of faith. It does not require an iota of faith to trust that the Highlord will strike down his enemies, because he has a long and documented history of striking down his enemies.

It doesn't require faith to believe the Sun King could literally show up at any time to put you in your place, because the Sun King has a long and documented history of showing up unexpectedly to put people in their place.

Tektolnes and Muk Utep are not 'divine' - the concept of 'divinity' is conspicuously absent from their respective cults. They are real and tangible beings whose wills have shaped and defined their respective regions for centuries.

Beyond the walls of the cities, every tribal clan has their own brand of spirituality and belief, but in my experience these all also eschew "faith" and "divinity" trappings for more animist/primitivist interpretations of spirituality.