After action delay - Combat actions

[Pariah]

So to start, I have no way of testing this, beyond trying to nod after the action and estimate, but here is my rough findings.

So if I attack something, I get a few second delay before I can flee or do another combat maneuver.

If you throw something at someone, either in the same room or out, same delay it feels like.

However I've noticed that some commands feel like they delay you more than the normal amount of a kill thing command.

Namely SAP thing.  So this has a delay to fire, the you're sneaking up on them message of a few seconds, then after you fire it, hit or miss, you're stuck for an extended period of time.

Is there some reason that it requires two delays and the delays be longer than a simple kill thing command?

I've had a few times where I sap something and then get stuck for so long another thing has had the time to come into the room, and attack me three times before I can even flee.

Just seems like it might be excessive to be left vulnerable for that long.

What do you guys think?

[Riev]

There are "pre" and "post" command delays. For example, there is a pre-delay to sapping someone before the command takes place. However, there is a global "initiate combat delay" that causes the attacker to face a delay of 5-6 seconds. This gives the victim time to flee, draw weapons, or take action.

It prevents backstab;flee;backstab style assaults on people.

MOST things in the game that cause damage to an opponent come with some sort of lag, otherwise we would just type kick;kick;kick;kick;kick;kick;kick;kick;kick until you die. (Anyone remember sunback tail whips?)

The lag is intentional, and has been that way for a long time. Its a 'balance' issue that, if it weren't in place, I am telling you that I would absolutely be abusing the ability to sap you over and over again. Or Smack you in the back of the head and run off, free of consequence.

[Pariah]

I understand there is a delay, but what I'm saying is that the delay seems longer than a normal kill person delay.

I don't really have a way to test it unless I put a clock on my mushclient commands and type kill thing;nod and see when the nod fires. Versus sap;nod.

[Riev]

I understand there is a delay, but what I'm saying is that the delay seems longer than a normal kill person delay.

I don't really have a way to test it unless I put a clock on my mushclient commands and type kill thing;nod and see when the nod fires. Versus sap;nod.

I believe backstab and sap specifically have additional delays added onto them, due to their nature as combat initiators.

[Pariah]

I understand there is a delay, but what I'm saying is that the delay seems longer than a normal kill person delay.

I don't really have a way to test it unless I put a clock on my mushclient commands and type kill thing;nod and see when the nod fires. Versus sap;nod.

I believe backstab and sap specifically have additional delays added onto them, due to their nature as combat initiators.

So the extra delay is supposed to balance the fact that I could potentially cause some stun damage?

I've literally killed things in the few rounds after a failed sap before I can move, it's THAT long of a delay.

[Fernandezj]

Yes its intentional.

Sap can kill PCs in a single hit, so it needs some downside other than just the same delay as the kill command with spectacularly more damage.
Generally if it doesn't kill it can knock them out, so given the disposition of the attacker its a very overpowered skill.
It also prevents sap;;hide before anyone can even get up.

[Pariah]

It also prevents sap;;hide before anyone can even get up.

I never really thought about that, sad part is someone probably twinked the shit outta it in this way to require it to have such a long roundtime afterwards.

[Fernandezj]

Yes they did. 

[Alesan]

It also prevents sap;;hide before anyone can even get up.

I never really thought about that, sad part is someone probably twinked the shit outta it in this way to require it to have such a long roundtime afterwards.

Would you expect the vast majority of people who use the sap skill and other similar skills to just stand around waiting a few seconds for the possibility of getting caught/attacked before escaping to safety? I wouldn't. I would add that delay right out of the box.

[Pariah]

It also prevents sap;;hide before anyone can even get up.

I never really thought about that, sad part is someone probably twinked the shit outta it in this way to require it to have such a long roundtime afterwards.

Would you expect the vast majority of people who use the sap skill and other similar skills to just stand around waiting a few seconds for the possibility of getting caught/attacked before escaping to safety? I wouldn't. I would add that delay right out of the box.

Well that's sorta where it's odd compared to the helpfile in my opinion.

help sap

Sap                                                            (Melee Combat)

   This skill entails sneaking up on an opponent and rapping them soundly
on the head, with the intent of knocking them out.

Syntax:
   sap <character name>

Example:
> sap haldol

> sap noble

Notes:
      It is possible to sap fighting victims.

   You must always use a 'bludgeoning' weapon to sap.

   Sap is an excellent method of attack if one's presence ought to be
unnoticed by soldiers of city-states. (Of course, the ensuing fight can
attract attention.)


Delay:
   before

Maybe it's because I'm using it solely on critters that might have MASSIVE STUN POINTS, but I think I've hit sap a lot but only knocked out once.

So I don't think it would be a safe bet to try in a crime coded area.  But again, I have no idea the stun points of the average beast, it could be that players have 90 stun points and critters have 200 for all I know.

Also the delay says before, not after, so that's weird, probably just need to update the helpfile to say before/after.

[Alesan]

Fair point. There is an active project to get help files updated, so any combat helpfiles that are inaccurate could maybe be added to the list to get updated.
I'm very surprised sap ever lacked an after delay. I can only imagine how much abuse it got.

[Fernandezj]

Maybe it's because I'm using it solely on critters that might have MASSIVE STUN POINTS, but I think I've hit sap a lot but only knocked out once.

So I don't think it would be a safe bet to try in a crime coded area.  But again, I have no idea the stun points of the average beast, it could be that players have 90 stun points and critters have 200 for all I know.

Also the delay says before, not after, so that's weird, probably just need to update the helpfile to say before/after.

This is conjecture, but I believe that being unseen and sapping gives higher damage because it plays off blind-fighting (i.e. the opponent can't see you, so they take a penalty).
So that's where the bit about "being unnoticed" comes in, I believe.

[Riev]

The delay on Sap is before.
The delay on combat initiation is after.
The help file is correct.

It also is saying that if you knock someone out with sap ONLY, it won't trigger crim-code. If, however, you have to actually then hit them in a combat round afterwards, that will trigger soldiers to come towards you.

Humans have MUCH less stun than animals. Especially when they're waying other people, listening to people at the bar, and/or scanning for your hidden booty.

[Pariah]

The delay on Sap is before.
The delay on combat initiation is after.
The help file is correct.

It also is saying that if you knock someone out with sap ONLY, it won't trigger crim-code. If, however, you have to actually then hit them in a combat round afterwards, that will trigger soldiers to come towards you.

Humans have MUCH less stun than animals. Especially when they're waying other people, listening to people at the bar, and/or scanning for your hidden booty.

So if I do nosave combat, so I don't initiate combat after the first whack on the noggin, I should be able to skip the second lag?

[Riev]

The delay on Sap is before.
The delay on combat initiation is after.
The help file is correct.

It also is saying that if you knock someone out with sap ONLY, it won't trigger crim-code. If, however, you have to actually then hit them in a combat round afterwards, that will trigger soldiers to come towards you.

Humans have MUCH less stun than animals. Especially when they're waying other people, listening to people at the bar, and/or scanning for your hidden booty.

So if I do nosave combat, so I don't initiate combat after the first whack on the noggin, I should be able to skip the second lag?

No. The combat still initiates unless your VICTIM also has nosave combat on. They're still allowed to attack you.

Nosave Combat doesn't stop the delays/lag, it just prevents you from attacking back.


In this instance, if you have Nosave Combat on and sap someone, you won't attack AFTER the sap command. Find out from your local law enforcement as to how this affects crime code.

[Pariah]

The delay on Sap is before.
The delay on combat initiation is after.
The help file is correct.

It also is saying that if you knock someone out with sap ONLY, it won't trigger crim-code. If, however, you have to actually then hit them in a combat round afterwards, that will trigger soldiers to come towards you.

Humans have MUCH less stun than animals. Especially when they're waying other people, listening to people at the bar, and/or scanning for your hidden booty.

So if I do nosave combat, so I don't initiate combat after the first whack on the noggin, I should be able to skip the second lag?

No. The combat still initiates unless your VICTIM also has nosave combat on. They're still allowed to attack you.

Nosave Combat doesn't stop the delays/lag, it just prevents you from attacking back.

STUFF!

You sneaky son of a bitch, I think you just revealed some game meta, so I'd recommend editing that out of your reply.

If that is how it works, seems incredibly cheater-ish for that to happen.

[th3kaiser]

He didn't really. It's just weird nuances of how combat works on this super old diku mud. You're basically just not initiating combat yourself, but unless you OHKO'd that target they're going to start combat with you before your delay is up anyway.

[Fernandezj]

You sneaky son of a bitch, I think you just revealed some game meta, so I'd recommend editing that out of your reply.

If that is how it works, seems incredibly cheater-ish for that to happen.

Its not really a revelation, just how combat initiation works and what you may or may not want to do with your stealth attacks.

Generally with stealth skills (blowgun, backstab, sap), you more often than not do NOT want to follow-up with an attack, especially if you are trying to incapacitate with poisons. Like if you KO on a sap, you might want to rob them, not murder them. If you backstab with a poison, you may want to not hit a follow-up. If you miss a blow-gun you may not want to start pummeling with your unarmed fists, etc.

You'll notice this with creatures attacking from stealth too.
Like a snake might attack you from hidden. If they miss, combat is not initiated.
(This results in some funny instances of a snake attacking a Bynner, they miss, and the whole caravan moves, and the snake is left in the dust without a fight having taken place).

[Pariah]

You sneaky son of a bitch, I think you just revealed some game meta, so I'd recommend editing that out of your reply.

If that is how it works, seems incredibly cheater-ish for that to happen.

You'll notice this with creatures attacking from stealth too.
Like a snake might attack you from hidden. If they miss, combat is not initiated.
(This results in some funny instances of a snake attacking a Bynner, they miss, and the whole caravan moves, and the snake is left in the dust without a fight having taken place).

Ahh I had bugged this thinking it was an error.  I didn't know the sneak was technically doing anything but a basic attack at me from hiding.

[Fernandezj]

This is all conjecture on my part. I have no idea if its code, or a bug. I assumed that there was some sort of advantage from attacking from stealth, just like a surprise attack in games.

[X-D]

There was a time when sap and backstab had no delay after.

And people would hide, backstab, flee, run back and backstab again while the target was still in combat delay.

This is no longer a viable option...I mean, you can still do it but the target will not be in combat delay so...Yeah...just remember, Bash is faster.


I have no issue with it as I think any powerful skill/spell should have some kind of risk.

Also, the helpfile should say before and after...as that is the case. But the helpfile I think was never updated...which is interesting.