Words and perceptions and usage

[tiny rainbow]

When it's used as an insult, it definitely does not mean nice sexy happy thing and that's pretty obvious...

And the endless posts that spam out peoples' replies that don't want to have a huge argument just seem the same way Delirium was shouted down... A lot of people don't want to be around those kind of people, and will just leave, and will not argue for hours with people like this on threads like this. And you end up with 3 gross people, 1, that thinks nothing is wrong, and 1 nice person that earnestly believes they are in fact doing the right thing but enables them...

[Bebop]

Now, tell your story on how censorship helps player retention, please?

I don't want rape back in the game.

...but I also don't like to police what people can and cannot do on a game.

Then I'd like my next sorc to have a Mercedes Benz.  Rules for RP exist in the game to create an atmosphere.  That's not policing.

[mansa]

...So why are we pedalling backwards on free expression?
...

ArmageddonMUD is not freedom of expression.

It is an online, multiplayer, text-based MUD that is co-owned by the producers.  It's a private server.  We only play and collaborate together because we agree upon certain rules that have been defined by the staff.

There has never been free expression in the gamespace.   There has always been restrictions of what you can play and how you can play.  This game isn't free speech, and never will be.

[Wday]

I am a little lost. But we all know I can't read or write i just play this game. But use of words such as cunt or calling someone a dick in a harsh world is normal. Yes both sex is equal here but still curse words used in slang is to anger someone. Get someone angry they make rash moves and maybe mistakes which very well can be a plotted plan. Now if you are playing with a group and can tell they do not use such a word, then limit it as you would in real life around groups. But to ban a word sounds a bit tough. (this is on words to do with body parts of any sex)

[Brokkr]

My personal, NON-STAFF, view is this:

I have no problems with people cursing in real life interactions.  I curse in real life interactions.  However, real life in person interactions typically have immediate feedback, primarily through non-verbal reactions, allowing you to read the room and adjust behavior based on cursing.  It is also not one sided, there can be consequences.  People get shunned for persistent behavior around cursing.  I'm sure we've all seen real life fights start because one person was cussing at another.  Feedback and consequences keep a lot of people from going too far, and for the people it doesn't, they are still impacted by other people taking decisions to remove or limit interaction.

We do not have that here.  Player to player it is mostly one sided (you can't react in a way that has immediate, RL impact to the player cursing), we don't have the ability to read the room because our interaction is at the character reaction level and not the player reaction level, and we have a small enough community and anonymity between characters that makes removing yourself from that player not realistic.

And we have some players that are complete assholes.  The kind that will keep doing something repeatedly that annoys or angers others because it annoys or angers others.  Which leads to the need for very clear black/white rules, rather than rules where people are asked to abide by the spirit of something.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Bottom line, I don't mind finding non-gendered words for things. I like the thematic aspect of this.

I also don't like the idea that a curse word might be banned, but more than that, I don't like the idea that a player really feels jarred by seeing it. So I'd rather take a shot at easing that word out of the vocab than losing the player.

Nobody is going to quit playing because they can't say cunt. People might very well stop playing because they're around people who say cunt. And I'm far more concerned about the latter than the former.

Rather than a ban, I'd rather see a concerted attempt to discourage it, though.

[Veselka]

I've used the word a lot on previous PCs. It was probably Deadwood that inspired me to do so. For some reason it felt like low hanging fruit when I made nasty Southerner PCs because it felt analogous to idiotic westerner dinguses who aren't smart enough to be eloquent in an insult.

I will refrain from using the word on future PCs. I don't mind offending PCs, but I do mind offending players inadvertently.

[Pariah]

While some of this has been actual fruitful, good commentary, the whole trend is described below.

[Veselka]

While some of this has been actual fruitful, good commentary, the whole trend is described below.

Just because you don't see something as being an issue doesn't mean it isn't an issue for others. If you've said your peace, you can just back away gracefully.

[650Booger]

I recently played a female character, and my PC clanmates took to calling me derogatory sexxist names, cunt, bitch, etc, because they didn't like my PCs attitude.  that is inappropriate.  I didn't report them though, I simply stored my PC and rerolled to play in another area of the game.  those are words that reflect a toxic and immature mentality, by the players, and I don't want to be around people like that.

[Aruven]

It is blowing my mind that this type of argumentation has pervaded down to a text-based game.

It seems inescapable in life.

I will only type 'Damn' or 'Fuck' as curse words, because I don't know what else isn't allowed. My dialogue is tailored with much focus to make sure I don't offend anyone.

I'd like not to see censoring of anything, but the country I live in, is in a real struggle with some of its foundations and concepts right now. This is a societal thing.

[Aruven]

Currently there is a lot of concern about censorship in Armageddon, but the reality is we censor anything that is not theme appropriate or anachronistic already.  And one theme of armageddon is there is no sexual discrimination in game, and such the language used by the characters in this world needs to reflect that.

This.

[mansa]

... I don't know what else isn't allowed.
...

I think Ender said it well enough:

So I have been thinking about this issue a lot and I think there is a clear disconnect.  No one is asking for a blanket ban against these words as far as I can tell.  What we are asking for is a reaffirmation of this rule:

stop using sexist insults framed against people (e.g. bitch, dick, cunt).

I am not saying we should ban words, I am saying we should ban the use of specifically targeted sexist insults.  "Oy cunt give me that wrench."  perfectly fine, "I won't listen to you because you're just a cunt." said to a female leader: sexist and not theme appropriate.

...

Currently there is a lot of concern about censorship in Armageddon, but the reality is we censor anything that is not theme appropriate or anachronistic already.  And one theme of armageddon is there is no sexual discrimination in game, and such the language used by the characters in this world needs to reflect that.

One simple question:
Am I insulting someone's gender?

[Cabooze]

If someone can't separate the IC from the OOC, finding offense IRL for something insulting in-character, that's really their own problem that they need to work out. Projecting can be a useful roleplay tool, but there's such thing as taking it too far or taking it too personally.

If you're finding real-world impact by something said or done virtually, you need to take a step back and realize that it's not the same reality. If a character wants to actively discriminate against the opposite sex, it shouldn't be translated to real-world misogyny or misandry. It's just the character and how the player is choosing to represent their creation.

[Delirium]

It is a higher standard of roleplay to properly reflect the gameworld and use gameworld-specific insults.

Insinuating that anyone who dislikes the use of gendered RL insults can't separate character from reality is insulting at best.

You lose nothing by being OOCly considerate of your fellow players while still playing a character who is insulting and mean.

It's the same reason we have consent. Why it's a good idea to not let scenes where you have the power trap another character in place, because it traps the player, as well, and they may very well not have the "log in" stamina you do. It's why we say "of course" if someone low-ranked says they have Gate. It's why we try and throw out an emote to enliven a scene or hint at the reason for the death when we have someone mort'd. Why we use the arrange command to add color to the otherwise basic code. Why we should try not to dominate a scene and ensure other players have a chance to participate and reflect their part in it. Why we often hemote or emote/say less during crowded RPTs so that the purpose of that RPT can continue uninterrupted without making it overly drag on. I could think of many more examples. It's just plain old good manners to try and make sure you are working with with your fellow players instead of trying to win.

In short, we're trying to tell collaborative stories while reflecting a despotic, grimdark world where men and women are equally powerful, and it is entirely possible to add flavor to your dialogue and emotes without breaking immersion with terms that are loaded with RL connotations that do not fit the stated theme of the game.

Again: you lose nothing by being respectful of your fellow players by avoiding gendered insults.

If you feel you do, examine why.

I don't have it in me to retype / repost everything else I said yesterday.

[hyzhenhok]

One simple question:
Am I insulting someone's gender?

It's not simple. The question is whether by simply using a gendered insult, are you actually necessarily insulting their gender?

And IMO, the correct, linguistic answer to that question is no.  Whether "cunt" is necessarily an insult to gender has been addressed already. The idea that "dick" is always an insult to a man about his gender is laughable.

Personally I don't use these words IG because I'm a profanity prude. I won't be terribly upset if the rule is "these words are very triggering and OOCly hurtful to some of our players, so we won't allow them." If that's the logic to the rule, fine. But we don't need to insist that the reasoning is this linguistically false notion that a word is necessarily sexist just because it is gendered, or that anyone who has used or uses these words are being actively sexist.

[Delirium]

The word cunt is far more loaded than the word dick. Cunt implies bitchiness/weakness; dick implies offensiveness/strength.

Pretending otherwise is disingenuous and uninformed at best.

I can't help but note nobody seems to have much of a problem avoiding the use of dick as an insult, and rarely see it IG.

[Cabooze]

The word cunt is far more loaded than the word dick. Cunt implies bitchiness/weakness; dick implies offensiveness/strength.

Pretending otherwise is disingenuous and uninformed at best.

I can't help but note nobody seems to have much of a problem avoiding the use of dick as an insult, and rarely see it IG.

Sigh. I guess we can't have this discussion because everyone who disagrees with you are liars or stupid. I don't have anything else to add.

Personal definitions are definitely playing a part in people's perceptions. Dick/Cunt carries the same level of connotation in my experience: It implies the target of the insult is intolerable in one way or another, or is generally rude.

Again: you lose nothing by being respectful of your fellow players by avoiding gendered insults.

If it's an insult or level of disrespect that would be given by the character, the player shouldn't have to censor or change their character to accommodate someone else's IRL sensitivities.

[Brokkr]

One thing I find interesting is that somehow there is a presumption on the part of some people that cunt is a word that can be used.  The "of course its okay!" attitude.

And yet, at least my perception, is that presumption does not extend to, lets say, holmes or ese, which I at least hear much more frequently in real life than the word cunt.

Which kind of infers that everyone actually is ok with limiting which words are used, on some level.  That there is just something in some people's heads that triggers a "but I should be able to use this word" response, for whatever reason.  Which is on you.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Well, sure, Bro.

But it's being used in the game on purpose, to be vulgar and shock people. To be the dirty hateful people we're trying to portray. So of course we lean heavy on stuff like that to depict ourselves.

IRL, we usually care more about people's perception of us.

[Cabooze]

And yet, at least my perception, is that presumption does not extend to, lets say, holmes or ese, which I at least hear much more frequently in real life than the word cunt.

If there was a circumstance that enabled such terminology to be seen as acceptable without eluding to the IRL aspects of where they originate, I can see some iterations sneaking their way ingame. Holmie seems like it could fit, if a stretch.

[tiny rainbow]

There's no reason misogynistic words would be so highly charged if not for the hundreds of years of fucked up institutionalised abuse, torture, murder and sexual imprisonment - Zalanthas went through a different trouser-leg of time where that stuff happened more equally, it makes 0 sense for it to be a go-to word, it's just bad roleplay...

[Delirium]

The word cunt is far more loaded than the word dick. Cunt implies bitchiness/weakness; dick implies offensiveness/strength.

Pretending otherwise is disingenuous and uninformed at best.

I can't help but note nobody seems to have much of a problem avoiding the use of dick as an insult, and rarely see it IG.

Sigh. I guess we can't have this discussion because everyone who disagrees with you are liars or stupid. I don't have anything else to add.

I didn't call you stupid. I called you uninformed. I called anyone else who takes this stance the same.

As for you, personally, I don't think you are coming from a bad place, but there are other posters who obviously fit in the disingenuous category. Or the deluded. I'm not going to be shy about saying that because I have zero fucks left to give.

There's nothing inherently wrong with being uninformed as long as you're genuinely willing to learn.

I grew up in a racist, misogynist, homophobic family and had to unlearn a lot of things I simply thought were okay.

Things I had no idea were any of the above; I simply didn't make those connections before I learned otherwise.

You can do it too.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I disagree it's bad roleplay. I DO agree that it might never have evolved as a word, but assuming that somebody using it is engaging in bad roleplay is unfair. We use the tools we have, and sometimes it makes sense to us OOC to use them.

If, after a conversation like this and hopefully, a generally-agreed-upon solution, we still do it, fine. But until things like this get brought  to our attention and we understand the justification, it's just a faulty tool.

[Bebop]

I recently played a female character, and my PC clanmates took to calling me derogatory sexxist names, cunt, bitch, etc, because they didn't like my PCs attitude.  that is inappropriate.  I didn't report them though, I simply stored my PC and rerolled to play in another area of the game.  those are words that reflect a toxic and immature mentality, by the players, and I don't want to be around people like that.

I didn't want to go into it at the time but a big part of the reason I left for a year and stored my last leadership PC was in part due to the sexism I felt I experienced IG and OOC from multiple angles.  I still don't want to go into it.  I am very interested in Tuluk, potentially returning and have had a year to decompress.

However, it's worth noting that now three people here are saying they are witnessing sexism, two of which nudged them completely out of their roles and even the game.

Women feeling safe here on an OOC level and being able to have characters that will not be discriminated against based on gender is absolutely a player retention issue.  A lack of sexism is thematic to the game and is not required for it to be cutthroat and brutal.