It's too often a mistake to trust other players

[number13]

I've lost count of the number of times I've paused and allowed my character to be in a compromised position, so a scene can play out. I like villainous monologues and making unfavorable deals under duress.

It used to be a good idea. Whoever played Lord Templar Samos knew just what to do in those situations. Or the player behind Gage Gritshaw was great for that sort of thing, a couple of times. There's more than a few others I'm sure I'm forgetting. Dozens, really. Sometimes it would result in character death, but I always felt think those players really gave a shit whether or not it was a fun death or a lame death.

But playing with those cool people have resulted in me having some bad habits and incorrect expectations, and the remaining PK happy population of this MUD is all too happy to exploit. Usually with crime code or apartment cheese.

As an example, I had a relatively long lived elf (long lived for me anyway) who was part of the problem...robbed the Gaj blind. It was a mistake. I felt guilty. I went on armabreak, came back with a plan to turn over a new leaf, and interact more with the population instead of operating in perfect stealth safety.

Within a RL week he was dead to a high karma character, because I paused to interact and give a scene, instead of spiriting away with my ultra-max stealth. I *trusted* mr. high karma, and it was a mistake that cost me a character I liked, and the game a player for many months it took me to get over being butthurt over it.

And that inevitably leads me back to square one, and staring at novice skills and probably another shitty stat roll.

Something needs to change in terms of either attitudes around player death and/or the stupid amount of grind required to build up a new character. I think I could emotionally handle a lame death if it meant I could hop right back into playing whenever I felt like it, instead having to deal with square one. It would be fun to be able to throw myself at death without having to worry about "wasting" five or ten full fucking days of grind.

The low player counts put me on armabreak, the fun war brought me out for a day, but the high barrier between suck and competent will keep me from playing, maybe for months or forever, even if I would otherwise log on.

Like right now. I would log on instead of whining.

If a *player* puts their X days of grind at your mercy, try to invent reasons to actually display mercy. This game costs way too much time for PCs to be considered disposable commodities. I almost feel like PKs should require consent, outside of certain situations.

Failing that, the time required to grind and play should be grossly reduced.

[DustMight]

...playing with those cool people have resulted in me having some bad habits and incorrect expectations, and the remaining PK happy population of this MUD is all too happy to exploit. Usually with crime code or apartment cheese.

Within a RL week he was dead to a high karma character, because I paused to interact and give a scene, instead of spiriting away with my ultra-max stealth. I *trusted* mr. high karma, and it was a mistake that cost me a character I liked, and the game a player for many months it took me to get over being butthurt over it.

First thing that is healthy to remember is that the feelings you are struggling with are the same feeling that those high karma players are feeling too.  Is this twink going to mess up my awesome character? Do I dare trust him with the story?
It can be incredibly frustrating, but trusting is the only thing we can do. And teach by being a good role model. It is the only solution.

Something needs to change in terms of either attitudes around player death and/or the stupid amount of grind required to build up a new character.

This thinking here is the root of your problem. Thinking that the potential for story is greater for your carefully honed character. Alternatively, I would argue that it is the new character has the greatest potential. If you use the word grind when referring to Armageddon, I would respectfully suggest you are going about it the wrong way.

I remember one staffer referring to my character in their notes as "an underdeveloped sorcerer." There is nothing wrong with that. Skill-wise maybe they were. I didn't think so. But the character had a rich story. Isn't that what this is really about? Aren't we telling a story? And this story: it's communal. It's not the story you want to tell. It's not the story I want to tell. It's the story we are telling and some of those chapters are cut brutally, painfully, and unfairly short. All we can hope for is a good death. I encourage you to keep your roleplay up despite the risk because it is in that dynamic that the game comes alive.

I think I could emotionally handle a lame death if it meant I could hop right back into playing whenever I felt like it, instead having to deal with square one. It would be fun to be able to throw myself at death without having to worry about "wasting" five or ten full fucking days of grind.

Again, this game is not about the grind, really, is it? It's about the potential for story. "In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's there are few," as Shunryu Suzuki has said. The world, at that moment, is its greatest opportunity for discovery despite the fact that one's character can't fight themselves out of a salt sack. The new character has little to lose and everything to gain and so is free in a way that your grinding character is not.

If a *player* puts their X days of grind at your mercy, try to invent reasons to actually display mercy. This game costs way too much time for PCs to be considered disposable commodities. I almost feel like PKs should require consent, outside of certain situations.

This is good advice - cutting a story short is often not worth it - but the fear of permadeath is the real spice. Consent, of course, would destroy this fear.

Failing that, the time required to grind and play should be grossly reduced.

We have all felt the disappointment that you are feeling now, for certain. I would submit, though, you will never be happy if you are focused on the cost to grind. The best thing you can do for yourself is remove that word from your vocabulary and never play the game waiting for "Master" to appear in your skill list.

In the end, yes, this makes your character very vulnerable to the twink or, rather, the person who doesn't experience the story the way that you do. This doesn't make their story any more or less valid, though. And though it is cold comfort, it is likely that within a month you know their character will likely be food for worms as well.

But I do believe you could use a little recalibration in focus. If you feel there is a grind, you may be going about it backwards. I recall that in my knowing there was a player who requested a character with no skill except his language and perhaps contact and went ahead and played. I've often been tempted to request the same. Can you play this type of character? Can you create a story without worry about your sneak skill, with how good your archery is? Can you actually embody the role of this creature in this place? This isn't a story that any individual creates. We are creating together and like a good GRRM novel, many endings are terrible, painful, and beautiful all at once.

See you in the sands, friend.

[number13]

>It can be incredibly frustrating, but trusting is the only thing we can do. And teach by being a good role model. It is the only solution.

There's another solution. Don't play.

Or, if you do play, never give another player the benefit of the doubt unless you recognize their playstyle as someone you know is in it for the story. If typing Quit is what you have to do to avoid getting cheesed, type Quit. If avoiding all interaction aside from a select few players is what you have to do to stay alive, then live in a cave, and never, ever enter a public space without max hide.

I've done that. It works.

[triste]

Thank you so much for this post, you raise a great point.

Isolation is an option as number13 says, that's what number13 did to a T in the first part of number13's story. But I am going to number13's point of being killed after you come out of isolation and decide to trust people.

In brief, I went through exactly what you went through. I had a solo-playing gick from the North named the She-Kryl. This dysfunctional nugget had no friends and was mutilated in a spooky-wooky, creepy-weepy way. I got bored after more than an IG year of roleplaying this ghoul in utter isolation and decided to join the Byn, because that's the one clan that welcomes everybody, even breeds and criminals, right? My character got to join and was instantly given the nickname Spooky by her Sarge because the b!tch was spooky AF. Well, literally 2-3 weeks within joining, a Templar walks in, accuses my character of being a Sorcerer (flattering, but no!), clan dumps my character so she couldn't run (extremely lame), and PKs her right in the sparring hall (wow, really!?!?).

We can all agree clan-dump-PKs suck. I implore anyone considering performing one to think of a better PK. But that point aside, this experience taught me two things, [1] to understand that my character was actually an important part of a larger plot by being framed in this way, I should be flattered to now have four or so characters people have assumed were sorcerers! (karma plz?) [2] it is important to work on building a cover for your creepy/naughty characters early and consistently. If you're roleplaying a character who is eating babies in the woods, you can't just waltz into Nak after a year of eating babies like, "Oh gee, I am just a normal commoner girl!" Build a cover as a bread baker for a year (and secretly eat babies in baby-meat stuffed dumplings rather than out in the open), and you might not be PKed as soon as you walk into 'Nak because everyone will be loving your sweet rolls and ignoring that faint baby taste in the dumplings.

If a *player* puts their X days of grind at your mercy, try to invent reasons to actually display mercy. This game costs way too much time for PCs to be considered disposable commodities. I almost feel like PKs should require consent, outside of certain situations.

Hard no on "asking consent to PK." This reminds me of when rape plotlines were banned, which augmented behavior IG. Having been violently raped IRL and violently assaulted IRL, I actually prefer people trying to forcibly have sex with me than people trying to forcibly kill me. Been through both experiences IRL, I definitely hate the guy who ran me down and almost killed me and put me in the hospital for days more than the guy who raped me and put me in a hospital for only one day. I feel like when rape got banned, a lot of people who woulda gotten raped got PKed instead, and that makes me feel funny given that I know what both experiences are like IRL.

I am only mildly okay with the rape ban because rape tends to fall disproportionately along gendered lines and Armageddon has a egalitarian policy that tries to eliminate any gender based discrimination including gender based violence. BUT. IF you take away an option for PC interaction like rape, it necessarily gets replaced with something else that is comparable and still allowed, like murder. If you limit murder, what is it going to be replaced with... IDK, more banishments, more siloing and people failing to incorporate people into plots at all, basically less interaction and more slow social deaths and a more toxic environment to roleplay in. I'd rather see plots evolve naturally and abruptly end in PK rather than seeing plots abruptly end in... whatever... because someone who logically should be PKed "doesn't consent to it."

In brief, I've been through what you've been through, EXACTLY what you've been through: I had a character that developed unsavory skills in isolation, and as soon as I came out and "trusted" people to seek interaction, I was killed. But this hasn't happened recently, even when playing with 'rinthi elves and lone mages and all sorts of unsavory types, because I've invested more in my characters building connections and a "cover" for whatever they are up to.

[DustMight]

...never, ever enter a public space without max hide. I've done that. It works.

You've fallen into Nietzsche's trap.
Nothing good comes of that.

[DustMight]

it is important to work on building a cover for your creepy/naughty characters early and consistently. If you're roleplaying a character who is eating babies in the woods, you can't just waltz into Nak after a year of eating babies like, "Oh gee, I am just a normal commoner girl!" Build a cover as a bread baker for a year (and secretly eat babies in baby-meat stuffed dumplings rather than out in the open), and you might not be PKed as soon as you walk into 'Nak because everyone will be loving your sweet rolls and ignoring that faint baby taste in the dumplings.

This so much.

[Maso]

If typing Quit is what you have to do to avoid getting cheesed, type Quit.

Dying != being cheesed

All characters die in Arm, it's like.. the cornerstone of the immersion of this game. So by playing Arm you accept that your character will ultimately die, most likely at a time and place not of your choosing. That's just.. how this game goes. Most of the time you do not have the benefit of knowing the story driven factors behind another players execution of your character, but usually.. there is one. The flip side of the coin is when someone manages to capture a PC they need to kill.. and they trust that PC enough to give them a good scene.. and the PC types Quit.. to escape death. That.. IS cheese. And also fully worthy of a player complaint.

DustMight's response to your original post is.. perfect.. It's about the stories, not the grind.. and when a character dies, then it's time for a new story.. oftentimes better than the last.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I would like a karma bound option to create a character with x days played's worth of skills. Sure. That would great.

But I have to concur that despite reliance on skills, this game is really about the story that accompanies getting these skills, and that skills are truly secondary to the character themselves. Getting the skills will occur over time, but pour yourself into the character's relationships and discoveries, into all of the different ways characters differ from each other, into the ways they look at the world.

This is what really matters. And you can still throw yourself at death on day 0. You just have to run away instead of "winning".

[Shabago]

So.

An entire thread dedicated to telling the other players of this community how bad they are and how they need to do it 'your way' only, or be bad?

Remember the rules about bashing, flaming, trolling and specific lines about treating other players with some respect? Evidently not. As this has been a years trend of almost exclusively posting to bash - Goodbye. Banned.