Too Many Gickers? Let's Fix That! (WITHOUT REDUCING THE FUN OF MAGICK)

[Strongheart]

This discussion happened when there were full mages. Just so everyone knows.

I keep hearing that but wasn't this pre-2011?

[creeper386]

Don't know when the change happened. But again my point is the switch back to full mages probably doesn't solve the issue as the issue still happened when full mages were a thing.

[Strongheart]

Don't know when the change happened. But again my point is the switch back to full mages probably doesn't solve the issue as the issue still happened when full mages were a thing.

I guess but that was before the main class changes is the thing.

[creeper386]

Don't know when the change happened. But again my point is the switch back to full mages probably doesn't solve the issue as the issue still happened when full mages were a thing.

I guess but that was before the main class changes is thing.

Did this main class change thing solve the issue with too many mages?

[tarkas]

What would people think of a spell being added.

Using this spell at different levels has different *PERMANANT* effects.

At it's weakest point, it can add 20 mana, and lower your maximum weapon skills by 30 points.

At it's strongest, it could do worse.

Side affects that randomly use your mana to silently cast curses on people near you.  But at a great
amount of added versatility.  Perhaps even opening other spell trees etc.

This would allow those who wanted stronger magick users to have them.  While keeping the issue with just *Better* people who have access to what everyone else does AND magick to a minimum.

I would recommend alongside this, weakening magickers greatly from the beginning.  Perhaps lowering the average mana level to around sixty for everyone.

*shrug* just an idea.

[Riev]

This thread makes me, the player, feel bad for making the choice to play a story as a magicker subclass.

[Strongheart]

Don't know when the change happened. But again my point is the switch back to full mages probably doesn't solve the issue as the issue still happened when full mages were a thing.

I guess but that was before the main class changes is thing.

Did this main class change thing solve the issue with too many mages?

No it exasperated the problem overtime but a lot has changed since then now that you can do even more than that as a mundane+magick. Not to mention, a bigger reason as to why there are so many gemmed is the fact that Templars and Oash need to fill out their elementalist gambit with multiple Aspects of the same element. If you've been around long enough then you've probably noticed this wherein reality it'd be simpler and more sustainable to have the Full Elementalists back on the menu since you sacrifice a whole lot especially now with the new main classes that are faster growing skillwise.

[Strongheart]

This thread makes me, the player, feel bad for making the choice to play a story as a magicker subclass.

That's not the intent at all and I wish people wouldn't take it that way. I love playing with a magick sub too so can I blame you? No. Magick is cool af but with the suggested solution of removing the Aspects, bringing back the Full Elementalist Classes but tweaked, and keeping the Touched would help remedy the overabundance or rather lack of mundanes.

[lostinspace]

This discussion happened when there were full mages. Just so everyone knows.

I keep hearing that but wasn't this pre-2011?

I'd be perfectly content with a change for magickers to be full-guild/touched only. You can check my signature for the date that full-guild magickers were closed, I have wanted them back pretty much since the moment I tried out an aspect.

[Strongheart]

This discussion happened when there were full mages. Just so everyone knows.

I keep hearing that but wasn't this pre-2011?

I'd be perfectly content with a change for magickers to be full-guild/touched only. You can check my signature for the date that full-guild magickers were closed, I have wanted them back pretty much since the moment I tried out an aspect.

I hope they can come back then.

[hyzhenhok]

This thread makes me, the player, feel bad for making the choice to play a story as a magicker subclass.

You shouldn't. I don't blame players for choices that the game has led them to naturally make. I've made that choice too and I'll make it again in the future, given the current system.

A somewhat redeeming quality of the suggestion to bring back full elementalist guilds is that the subguilds could still be available for special app. So characters concepts that really need the main guild + full subguild magick could still happen. It just wouldn't be an option staring you in the face after you pick your mundane class and the game asks you "which subguild?"

[Gentleboy]

Here I come, rearing my big ugly ideas.

I hate magick. But that doesn't mean I hate those of you who play gicks.

Let me tell you why I hate magick, alright.

Magick is something that is supposed to be rare, supposed to be haunting and dangerous and beautiful and special. It's not that to me here and now. As someone who plays mundane classes/subclasses mostly, imagine this: You're the side character in every story. How many fantasy books/movies have someone who just watches the magick around them? Sure, there are elves and they witness miracles, but the books and movies and comics focus on the person with the powers because they are otherworldly. When magick plots come into place, it's like the mundanes are forced to watch and support this plot that doesn't resonate with them.

Again, this is opinion, not fact. Please do not take anything that I say as anything sturdier than straw and clay. My ideas and thoughts aren't cement.

Characters who don't have magick don't understand magick and (mostly) don't want magick. They're supposed to fear it, not understand it, rp with it in that matter. Then all these gicks come flaunting around with their utility shit and offering it to mundanes who grit their teeth and say "no thanks". Even worse when they used to be your buddy and they have a group of other mundanes working alongside them and you're the independent twiddling their thumbs and watching. And get left out. And don't get to be included in the story.

I agree that there needs to be less gicks. They are everywhere. And it's getting a tad ridiculous. Also the way magick isn't censored is becoming really really annoying. It's draining to act huffy each person comes out as a gick. A character of mine watched about 5-9 people come out as gicks in 2-3 years. And by that point, they were just sick of it. How are mundanes supposed to respond to the same plot over and over. "unmanifested, unmanifested."

Then, let's talk about the unequal powers within magick. Why is everyone's magick equal? Shouldn't some people rp being bad at magick? Maybe some people can't use it at all. For some reason, everyone can just cast from the time they're manifested. That's weird to me.

I got a lot of gripes with magick, honestly, it makes the game boring to me. Having magick is not a great plot anymore. Having personality no matter the class is great. Having goals outside of magick is fabulous. I just don't like seeing it consume not just one character, but all the characters and plots around it.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

This discussion happened when there were full mages. Just so everyone knows.

He does not lie, at all. It was way worse, back then, in terms of how little mages needed mundanes, and how outpowered we were. On the other hand, there was never this rampant of magism. So not the exact convo happened, but one much like it.

[Veselka]

Again, it's just a matter of what game we want to have.

The thing about mundane solutions to mundane problems is it's mildly difficult most of the time. Want to assassinate someone? It isn't easy. But it's doable. And when it's done exactly right, it's a thrilling, crazy experience.

Or...You could just find a Magicker to do it for you in a few waves of the hand.

Want to spy on someone? The risk of getting caught, versus the risk of finding out some juicy information...Thrilling, nail biting stuff. Will you be caught? Did they see you but not say anything?

Or...You could just find a Magicker to do it for you in a few waves of the hand.

Enemy getting you down? Hmm, not many options, but you could pay that Soldier to give them a hard time, or a burglar to break into their apartment and leave dead rats on their bed...Maybe sleep with their lover to really stick it to them.

Or...You could just find a Magicker to escalate shit and send them to their doom.

Every mundane problem CAN be solved by Magicking, and when it is, it's often a cheaper feeling solution. It leaves a bad taste in the mouth. It isn't satisfying, because it is too damn easy.

Magic should be more difficult. It should have adverse affects, both on the people using it and the people around them when they use it. There should absolutely be more downsides to just BEING ALIVE and being a Magicker, in this defiled, desert-wasteland. People mentioned perhaps certain NPCs being attracted to Elementalists/Defilers. Certain poisons affecting them differently, or even different foods/drinks affecting them differently. Magicking Dead Zones -- Absolutely yes. Maybe there are/can be places that amplify magic as well.

Magic, In General, should be less predictable and more chaotic. Is it useful? Yes, when it works correctly. But sometimes, when a Gemmed casts a spell they've cast a hundred times, it lights EVERYONE ON FIRE. EVERYONE. That level of danger should be constantly present with a Magicker, which in turn would make them...Codedly...And RP wise...Pretty scary to be around.

As with most of the binary things in this game -- It's always all or nothing. And it feels recently the attention / plots are getting focused on and solved by Magic, which just doesn't sit right with my Low-Fantasy Grim-Dark Permadeath desires for this game. As Gentleboy puts it, it makes Mundanes feel like they're the Red Shirt side characters all the time. "Yeah yeah, whatever, Corporal Soandso, we're just going to get the Whiran to do it."

[Gentleboy]

Again, it's just a matter of what game we want to have.

The thing about mundane solutions to mundane problems is it's mildly difficult most of the time. Want to assassinate someone? It isn't easy. But it's doable. And when it's done exactly right, it's a thrilling, crazy experience.

Or...You could just find a Magicker to do it for you in a few waves of the hand.

Want to spy on someone? The risk of getting caught, versus the risk of finding out some juicy information...Thrilling, nail biting stuff. Will you be caught? Did they see you but not say anything?

Or...You could just find a Magicker to do it for you in a few waves of the hand.

Enemy getting you down? Hmm, not many options, but you could pay that Soldier to give them a hard time, or a burglar to break into their apartment and leave dead rats on their bed...Maybe sleep with their lover to really stick it to them.

Or...You could just find a Magicker to escalate shit and send them to their doom.

Every mundane problem CAN be solved by Magicking, and when it is, it's often a cheaper feeling solution. It leaves a bad taste in the mouth. It isn't satisfying, because it is too damn easy.

Magic should be more difficult. It should have adverse affects, both on the people using it and the people around them when they use it. There should absolutely be more downsides to just BEING ALIVE and being a Magicker, in this defiled, desert-wasteland. People mentioned perhaps certain NPCs being attracted to Elementalists/Defilers. Certain poisons affecting them differently, or even different foods/drinks affecting them differently. Magicking Dead Zones -- Absolutely yes. Maybe there are/can be places that amplify magic as well.

Magic, In General, should be less predictable and more chaotic. Is it useful? Yes, when it works correctly. But sometimes, when a Gemmed casts a spell they've cast a hundred times, it lights EVERYONE ON FIRE. EVERYONE. That level of danger should be constantly present with a Magicker, which in turn would make them...Codedly...And RP wise...Pretty scary to be around.

As with most of the binary things in this game -- It's always all or nothing. And it feels recently the attention / plots are getting focused on and solved by Magic, which just doesn't sit right with my Low-Fantasy Grim-Dark Permadeath desires for this game. As Gentleboy puts it, it makes Mundanes feel like they're the Red Shirt side characters all the time. "Yeah yeah, whatever, Corporal Soandso, we're just going to get the Whiran to do it."

Oooh, I love all this. You made your words make more sense and it's so good.

[Dresan]

So two arguments in this thread:

1. There are too many mages (hidden or otherwise)
-Bringing back full mage guild would not solve this problem. In fact it makes the problem worse, while at the same time forces these players into often isolated/hostile roles to survive while others are isolated to social roles at best.
-Keeping touched does not solve this problem. touched are still mages and there should be no difference between how you treat a touched mage vs a full sub-guild one
- The only options is to reduce the ability for players to play mage by increasing karma regeneration, or making these less fun ICly to play and yes both of these option will eventually cost some players.

2. Some magick sub-classes are too strong especially in combination with some self sufficient classes with not a lot of draw backs
-Yes. Some are. And perhaps their karma requirement should probably be reviewed.
-That said, none of the solutions to this will prevent people from playing mages, or playing those dangerous magick sub-classes which was the original intent of the thread.
-Full mage classes again being terrible solution to this as it not only gives more power to one player, but forces them into more isolated hostile roles.

[Veselka]

Yeah, I'm also not convinced bringing back full mages would do anything to solve this perceived issue.

It's a matter of how many people choose to engage the game from a mundane vs high-fantasy standpoint.

The more people that engage with the mundane, the more mundane the game will be.

The more people that engage with the high-fantasy aspects, the more high-fantasy the game will be, for everyone.

[Gentleboy]

Also, as someone who has been playing this game for two years, my feelings are hurt a bit, honestly.


It seems like magickers get a lot of attention and those who are playing mundanes "aren't playing the game right".

We get no cool secret knowledge, not amazing and high-powered items. Even metal is taken by higher powers.

What is it we gain from Arm as mundanes? Should we all just be hobbling around till we get karma to play the real game? That's what it feels like.

[hyzhenhok]

So two arguments in this thread:

1. There are too many mages (hidden or otherwise)
-Bringing back full mage guild would not solve this problem. In fact it makes the problem worse, while at the same time forces these players into often isolated/hostile roles to survive while others are isolated to social roles at best.
-Keeping touched does not solve this problem. touched are still mages and there should be no difference between how you treat a touched mage vs a full sub-guild one
- The only options is to reduce the ability for players to play mage by increasing karma regeneration, or making these less fun ICly to play and yes both of these option will eventually cost some players.

2. Some magick sub-classes are too strong especially in combination with some self sufficient classes with not a lot of draw backs
-Yes. Some are. And perhaps their karma requirement should probably be reviewed.
-That said, none of the solutions to this will prevent people from playing mages, or playing those dangerous magick sub-classes which was the original intent of the thread.
-Full mage classes again being terrible solution to this as it not only gives more power to one player, but forces them into more isolated hostile roles.

I don't know why you would assume everyone currently playing a Full Class / Subguild Mage would be equally happy to roll a full guild mage. And you identify drawbacks to the full mage role that would seemingly encourage some players not to pick that class, whereas with subguild mages there's much less of a downside.

[creeper386]

Should we all just be hobbling around till we get karma to play the real game? That's what it feels like.

I don't think so. This is a good thought process. Personally I prefer mundane. Even having karma options for magickers I don't play them much, and at least a few others voice similar opinions.

[Veselka]

Also, as someone who has been playing this game for two years, my feelings are hurt a bit, honestly.


It seems like magickers get a lot of attention and those who are playing mundanes "aren't playing the game right".

We get no cool secret knowledge, not amazing and high-powered items. Even metal is taken by higher powers.

What is it we gain from Arm as mundanes? Should we all just be hobbling around till we get karma to play the real game? That's what it feels like.

I mean -- Magic plots are cool. Templar plots are pretty cool, and some involve magic. Learning about esoteric history of the game while in the game is pretty cool.

There are just a lot of barriers for mundanes to be the center of a story/plot/tale.

One barrier is literacy, or the lack thereof, or even an illicit means to learn it -- it would provide a means for the mundane populace to learn and rebel, thus creating plots and upheaval to the status quo.

Another barrier is psionic powers, which in Dark Sun were widely known and accepted, while Mindbenders (people who actively used psionic superpowers to manipulate people and their surroundings) were deeeefinitely reviled and hunted. However, more widely accepted psionic powers might actually counter balance magical powers. Perhaps the ability to track people psionically that leave trace magic behind. Remember that Psionicism in Dark Sun was a /reaction/ to the horrible environment caused by...Defiling Magic. So it stands to reason that common day people have evolutionarily developed psionic defenses against....Magic.

Another barrier is simply focus. When Magic becomes part of a plot, it sucks the oxygen out of the room. Which can be incredibly boring for mundanes involved. And when there isn't magic involved in a plot...People are just waiting for magic to get involved in the plot/storyline/lifeline of a PC.

I'll give you an example, anecdotally. A region undergoes an IC year of peace and prosperity. Crafters be crafting. Hunters be hunting. Merchants be selling. Bynners be escorting and finding the occasional Gith. Templars be oppressing. It's relatively boring, but people develop some interpersonal drama. The occasional love-triangle pops up. Some GMH is an asshole and hard to get along with. And then...

A dEfILeR Shows up!

Everyone drops everything. What do we do? How do we survive? The Defiler is out there. They've picked on a few people...Oh no, someone died. What do we do? How do we solve this unsolvable problem? I can't go outside...We can't hunt...We can't craft...There's a Defiler...

And then the Defiler dies or goes away.

Year of prosperity...

And then another Defiler or Magicker Cabal...

Year of prosperity...

And so on.

I have to say CURRENT EVENTS fly in the face of this. Shit is popping off. And the cycle appears to have been somewhat broken at least for the last month or so. But before Current Events, it certainly felt like an ad nauseam cycle of the same plots over and over again, with magic taking the main stage and mundanes ostensibly being unable to do anything about it.

I'd just like for the focus to return to mundane plots, with mundane people. How we go about doing that...I suppose requires a lot of pontification. Mostly it requires MOST players to commit to playing mundane people. Maybe there should be longer timers for high karma magic classes. Maybe they should all be special app. I dunno. It just feels like the game should stop advertising itself as a low-fantasy game. Actual Play of the game -- Not Low Fantasy.

[Dresan]

Veselka idea's would make anyone playing a magick sub-guild throw away character, and would essentially kill the entire magick experience for a lot of people with sheer frustration.

A very small portion of magickal sub-guilds are good at killing/spying with little risk, you can probably narrow down the exact spells just as easily. Considering most people have no problem with people being mages via touched sub-guilds I think just dealing with the dangerous spells would be better than nerfing the entire experience.

That said just remember Sap Skill and strength stat in general are also pretty OP, and as or more dangerous than most spells as well, with even less risk then using magick since failing to kill your target instantly will get you potentially branded a mage.  Guess this will be the next thread of things to 'fix' 

[Patuk]

I have to say CURRENT EVENTS fly in the face of this. Shit is popping off. And the cycle appears to have been somewhat broken at least for the last month or so. But before Current Events, it certainly felt like an ad nauseam cycle of the same plots over and over again, with magic taking the main stage and mundanes ostensibly being unable to do anything about it.

.. They do? Current events, huge sandstorms thrown at Allanak, [REDACTED] going on, the works, AREN'T stuffed to the brim with magic?

What?

[Veselka]

I have to say CURRENT EVENTS fly in the face of this. Shit is popping off. And the cycle appears to have been somewhat broken at least for the last month or so. But before Current Events, it certainly felt like an ad nauseam cycle of the same plots over and over again, with magic taking the main stage and mundanes ostensibly being unable to do anything about it.

.. They do? Current events, huge sandstorms thrown at Allanak, [REDACTED] going on, the works, AREN'T stuffed to the brim with magic?

What?

No, mostly in breaking up the 'cycle'. But definitely plenty of magic to ogle.

[Patuk]

I guess I don't really see it that way. Certainly being a mage is a front row seat into being involved with current events; mundanes' chief achievements, so far, are dying to the forner. I guess it counts as involvement, but yeah, I don't agree it's a good dynamic.