Brainstorming Magick Critical Failures

[SpyGuy]

So recent code changes have me excited, specifically "-Spells now have a chance to have critical success / failure.  This is driven by JS on the backend which should let us update/expand how criticals work.  For now they are very basic and bland."  This thread is an attempt to get some discussion going on what could be done with this feature to make it more interesting as a whole and get an idea of where players think it should go.  Keep in mind Ness and other coders will do with the feature what they will so this is just a fun exercise in what we think might be fun and maybe, just maybe, it'll give them cool ideas.

For my own take I'd like to focus on critical failures.  I think critical successes should probably be consistent and based around a spell's effects so discussing them is difficult since what spells there are and who gets them aren't public knowledge.  For failures however what I'd really like to see, if possible, is that they be random.  I like the concept of spells being uncontrollable and I also think having 3-4 fail options for a spell means you could have one really bad one and the spell would still be usable.  Thematically I would see this as your mage being unable to properly control their powers and it adds to the mages are terrifying bits of the game while also injecting more weirdness to magick.  Feel free to comment on either how you think design should be set up or specific ideas for failures.  Just please don't discuss details of what spells are given to what class or what they do in the game.

Basic critical failures:

- Spell mistargets and hits a different person or item in the room.
- Spell burns up all your remaining mana
- Spell leaves a visible magick effect on the user for X period of time
- Caster starts producing uncontrollable element specific cantrips for X amount of time

Viv critical failures

- Makes everyone in the room thirsty (could be them drawing water from people in the room to cast)
- Caster gains an effect where they can only heal by magickal means for the next X period of time
- Caster gains an effect where they hemote prodigious sweating and clothing becomes sweat-soaked over time for X amount of time
- Caster gains an effect where their footsteps leave a trace of water on the ground

Ruk critical failures

- A strange object of stone springs up from the ground (basically a 'some Ruk was here' kind of object)
- The caster's body suddenly feels like it's made of stone and they get X amount of weight added for X amount of time (ie. they may be at light and now are at very heavy)
- Every time the caster enters a room there's an hemote echo of the ground shaking a little bit

Whiran critical failures

- Caster gets blown away by the winds (I can think of two spell effects, either could work here)
- Whole room gets blown away by the winds
- Those in the room start getting hemote echoes about the winds, perhaps a penalty to some skills to represent bad luck for X amount of time
- Caster (or others) are prevented from speaking above a whisper.  Or the opposite and they can only shout (magick effecting the wind in their lungs)
- Caster or others start to see lots of illusions, could be similar to skellebain poisoning

Krathi critical failures

- Flames consume the caster but don't harm them, instead burning and blackening X amount of equipment
- Caster's footsteps scorch the ground leaving track marks
- Random piece of equipment starts glowing brightly either temporarily or permanently
- Minor fire damage to those in the room, can scare mounts

Drov critical failures

- Caster gets hemote echoes to the room of their shadow doing weird things for X amount of time
- Caster is blinded by sunlight for X amount of time
- Caster involuntarily casts a certain spell on themselves (obviously not a failure for that specific spell)

Nilazi critical failures (I'm blanking on this one)


I'm not saying all of these are good ideas.  It's brainstorming.  My goals in this are to get people coming up with creative ideas that aren't (all) instantly lethal or damage based.  But I'd still like them to be annoying for a mage, magick should have a risk. And effects that could help track down or out a secret mage seem like an improvement to the game to me.  I also feel that effects that 'harm' others in the room in more ways than damage are a net positive for the game as it would be a coded effect similar to virtual curses.  All temporary of course, no one wants to crit fail a spell on a 2 hours played character and then have to have something follow them around for ages.

Thoughts? Ideas?

[X-D]

Man, I would really like to get in on this but I have yet to see this in effect as it is...so....it is rather tough to consider adding anything when you do not know how it currently works.


That Being said, I can comment on the OP, Basics crit fails...UM, totally against them. For many reasons. Like, spell mistargets...alright, what if the spell does not have a target? And even if it does, is that really a fail?

Remaining mana burned, Not so big an issue but do they have a ladder of fails, I would think that total mana burn would be a critical CRITICAL ++ fail, Like you rolled a natural 0 of 100.

Leaves visible effect, That would have to be element specific so does not belong there.

Cantrips....Um...why and no. Makes no sense to me.

Viv fails...All good cept the healing one....there are 3 viv classes, what about if two do not get heal?

Ruk, I like them, cept for the second one, the effect in that case should be slow.

Whiran, First two...um Alright, maybe even 3rd, 4th make little sense for the class, Whira is movement, illusion and luck....5th Sweet.

krathi I like all those and would add a smoking flag as possible, both on gear and on PC depending on if there is different levels of crit fails.

Drov all good.

Nilazi, the worst thing you could do to a nilazi is reverse the spell. Almost all of them.  I mean really, that would be cold blooded.

Now, what about sorcs....I can only think of one ATM and it would be evil. On Crit fail it hurts relationship, amount depends on level cast.

[SpyGuy]

For the mistargeting one I would only see that as happening with spells that took a target.  Like if the spell is 'magick missile' then it could hit the wrong enemy or ally on a crit fail. Obviously not all of these work for every spell, my ideal would be each spell has 3-4 potential crit fails.  Some spell specific, some more generally related to the element. Some may only affect a specific subclass rather than all subclasses of that element.

As for using 'basic critical failures' I more meant that those sorts of crit fails could apply to any element with a little tweaking if that wasn't clear.

I wouldn't worry too much about not knowing how the system works exactly.  I have no clue myself.  This is just a thought exercise to maybe give the coders who will actually decide and implement the system some unsolicited ideas. Thanks for the input.

[X-D]

Oh, I know, not really trying to be dickish, more adding to what you had, true, in some cases trying to make sense of.

Though I wonder why not putting in crit success in as well, I mean there is no reason why that could not also have multiple effects. From less mana cost to greater time to more targets.

Still, good thread, I expect to actually add something when I have actually seen this supposed new code...as of yet, I have noticed nothing.

[Khorm]

i think crit magick fails are great. i have no idea what they are or what they might do but i have cast over 10k spells and have never had a result that wasn't predictable.

it strikes me as a way to add depth to the system and to add..... any malus whatsoever to playing a magicker sub.

except for wizardry because it's special and different. relationship errors are interesting though.

[SpyGuy]

I focused on crit fails because that's what I'm more interested in (I love you mage players but I totally want to make your lives more difficult and my own the next time I play a mage) but I'm not the thread police.  If people have ideas for critical successes then go for it!   I also figure that critical successes would more likely be consistent and spell specific like making that spell extra good but you're totally right that there's room for more general stuff like lowered mana costs.

As for whether these should apply to sorcs I don't know.  How different is arcane magick from elementalism?   That's up to the coders I guess.

[Narf]

I'm very much in favor of critical failures that apply some sort of effect on other people in the area (possibly in addition to the mage). Making folks really hungry or thirsty, dealing a little stun damage with the message of 'piercing headaches', or even just ominous messages like 'your gut wrenches as you get a bad feeling'. It doesn't need to be a hard coded effect either, just something spooky and weird that'd freak people out. Extra points if some of them extend to the next room or two.

I've always thought it a little silly that superstition against magick managed to persist to the degree it does when it was, at  least in Alanak, both extremely common and usually very safe. Take away the 'very safe' part and it makes a lot more sense. Even if only 1% of casting has something bad happen to the people around it, that's more than enough to keep that superstition going.

[Riev]

I've always thought it a little silly that superstition against magick managed to persist to the degree it does when it was, at  least in Alanak, both extremely common and usually very safe. Take away the 'very safe' part and it makes a lot more sense. Even if only 1% of casting has something bad happen to the people around it, that's more than enough to keep that superstition going.

True, but based on the documentation, the gem is applied to magickers in Allanak TO MAKE THEM SAFE or at least tolerable.

So your idea could work, but only on 'rogue' mages. The gem is there to tap into their powers and make them safe, if leashed.

[Ender]

I've always thought it a little silly that superstition against magick managed to persist to the degree it does when it was, at  least in Alanak, both extremely common and usually very safe. Take away the 'very safe' part and it makes a lot more sense. Even if only 1% of casting has something bad happen to the people around it, that's more than enough to keep that superstition going.

True, but based on the documentation, the gem is applied to magickers in Allanak TO MAKE THEM SAFE or at least tolerable.

So your idea could work, but only on 'rogue' mages. The gem is there to tap into their powers and make them safe, if leashed.

That is a misreading of the intention of the documentation.

This binding is proclaimed to render them "safe" or tolerable and by the letter of the Highlord's law.

The rest of the document goes on to talk about how much commoners HAAAATTEEEE magickers.  The problem is magick as coded IS super safe and does not have ill effects not intended by users of it, so over the years it's become this Sisyphean task to get players to hate something that is clearly beneficial to them when the magicker is friendly to them.

[Riev]

I feel like we're arguing a similar point, here.

By documentation, gemmed magickers are considered safe by the letter of the Highlord's Law. Ungemmed magickers are wild and untamed.

I don't give a flying fuck if people 'haaaaaaaaaate' magickers. Thats not what this is about. Its about Magick Crit Fails, which currently are just proof of concept and haven't been updated yet.

We're here for ideas, and my idea is "crit fails for gemmed mages don't exist because they're gemmed. But maybe crit success doesn't happen either, because it all feeds into the gems".

tl;dr You're arguing something outside the scope of the post, which is pretty common around here.

[X-D]

Gonna have to agree with Riev here.

Wild magicks on a gemmed does not make much sense.

[SpyGuy]

Riev, could you point to where in the documentation it calls them safe?  I'm finding the temples were built so they could practice magick safely, removed from the general populace.  That alone seems to indicate some danger in being around the use of magick.  But there's a few docs and stuff is scattered so I'd appreciate seeing where you got the idea.

Second point I'd make is safe for whom?   The gem is a leash, it allows the Templarate to have some assurance that the gemmed won't revolt. That doesn't necessarily imply that it's perfectly safe for commoners to be around the gemmed or their magick.

I'm not terribly against the idea of the gem affecting crit fails either if it lines up with the docs and staff vision for this feature.

[Riev]

Riev, could you point to where in the documentation it calls them safe?  I'm finding the temples were built so they could practice magick safely, removed from the general populace.  That alone seems to indicate some danger in being around the use of magick.  But there's a few docs and stuff is scattered so I'd appreciate seeing where you got the idea.

Code Select Expand

Allanak's Elementalist Quarter is home to the gemmed: elementalists who bear a dull black gem fastened around their throats. These elementalists are said to be bound to the Highlord's will through these devices and by extension the Templars of His city. This binding is proclaimed to render them "safe" or tolerable and by the letter of the Highlord's law they are permitted to live and operate in the city like any other free citizen.

Second point I'd make is safe for whom?   The gem is a leash, it allows the Templarate to have some assurance that the gemmed won't revolt. That doesn't necessarily imply that it's perfectly safe for commoners to be around the gemmed or their magick.

I'm not terribly against the idea of the gem affecting crit fails either if it lines up with the docs and staff vision for this feature.

The second point is entirely based on the answer to the first. Its not "perfectly safe", its safe according to the Highlord's Law. Its still illegal to cast spells at people and be a general nuisance, but as far as the Highlord is concerned, a gemmed magicker is "safe" unless they're purposefully breaking the law to throw fireballs.

[SpyGuy]

Thanks for the source but going to have to disagree with your reading of it.  None of that implies to me that a gem prevents a spell from going wrong and harming others.  It's just deemed "safe" by the Highlord's law which as we know doesn't care at all about commoners. How many scorched commoners would a templar tolerate if it meant they have a walking flamethrower to throw at their enemies? Someone even made a point of putting "safe" in quotes.  And by His Law the gemmed are also prohibited from using their magick on the streets of the city, they're relegated to temples that are tucked away from the general populace.  But in the end staff might agree with your interpretation and the gem will affect how critical fails work, that might be pretty cool.  Up to Nessalin et al though.

But back on topic, any more ideas for ways to make critical failures interesting?

[Armaddict]

A simple opposition toggle of the un/nil reach could work wonders as far as this.  Spam casting on nil, critical failure makes the spell go off and the ramifications are dealt with.

Also.  Critical failures should make the magicker explode and insta die.  Everyone in the room that gets touched by their gore becomes a wild mage that casts the spell that killed the mage at random.  IT'S A PLAGUE OF MAGES! (this is not serious, I just wanted to play with mages dying)

[Incognito]

I totally disagree with all the proposed spell failure options posted in the thread.

Magick already has a chance of failure - it's called losing concentration. That in itself is enough to put a magicker's life at risk.

Crit Fails have been added now - which will only add to more possibilities of magickers' continued safe existence.

Adding even more detrimental effects is a definite no-no.

That would be akin to proposing something like a Miscreant gets a crit-fail on a backstab and ends up making himself visible, or dropping his weapon.

The system is fine as is - why is there even a need for these changes? Logically, one MIGHT assume that the crit-fail addition to magick MIGHT be because more PCs are playing mages, and surviving long-term.

The root cause of this is because mages are now subguilds and have full guilds to help them survive and become hardier, longer-lived PCs, than when they were guilds and had to chose supportive subguilds that helped marginally.

[SpyGuy]

I totally disagree with all the proposed spell failure options posted in the thread.

Magick already has a chance of failure - it's called losing concentration. That in itself is enough to put a magicker's life at risk.

Crit Fails have been added now - which will only add to more possibilities of magickers' continued existence.

Adding even more detrimental effects is a definite no-no.

That would be akin to proposing something like a Miscreant gets a crit-fail on a backstab and ends up making himself visible, or dropping his weapon.

The system is fine as is - why is there even a need for these changes? Logically, one MIGHT assume that the crit-fail addition to magick MIGHT be because more PCs are playing mages, and surviving.

The root cause of this is because mages are now subguilds and have full guilds to help them survive and become hardier, longer-lived PCs, than when they were guilds and had to chose supportive subguilds that helped marginally.

As stated in Nessalin's update : "-Spells now have a chance to have critical success / failure.  This is driven by JS on the backend which should let us update/expand how criticals work.  For now they are very basic and bland."

This thread is brainstorming ways to make criticals less boring and bland.  Not adding an additional layer of negative effects.

[Narf]

I totally disagree with all the proposed spell failure options posted in the thread.

Magick already has a chance of failure - it's called losing concentration. That in itself is enough to put a magicker's life at risk.

Crit Fails have been added now - which will only add to more possibilities of magickers' continued existence.

Adding even more detrimental effects is a definite no-no.

That would be akin to proposing something like a Miscreant gets a crit-fail on a backstab and ends up making himself visible, or dropping his weapon.

The system is fine as is - why is there even a need for these changes? Logically, one MIGHT assume that the crit-fail addition to magick MIGHT be because more PCs are playing mages, and surviving.

The root cause of this is because mages are now subguilds and have full guilds to help them survive and become hardier, longer-lived PCs, than when they were guilds and had to chose supportive subguilds that helped marginally.

As stated in Nessalin's update : "-Spells now have a chance to have critical success / failure.  This is driven by JS on the backend which should let us update/expand how criticals work.  For now they are very basic and bland."

This thread is brainstorming ways to make criticals less boring and bland.  Not adding an additional layer of negative effects.

Yeah, I would be opposed to crit fails that legitimately endanger the caster's life. Most of the suggestions are either coded nuisances (increased hunger) or things with no coded detriment (giving people a 'bad feeling') that have role play implications.

[Incognito]

Phew, that relieved me. Sorry, I misunderstood the OP.

Of course, making the crit-fails less boring is a great endeavour.

[SpyGuy]

Phew, that relieved me. Sorry, I misunderstood the OP.

Of course, making the crit-fails less boring is a great endeavour.

No sweat.  I think the mistake was on my part by writing "Viv failures" and that could be read as a basic failure.  So edited OP to be "Viv critical failures" etc.

[triste]

Whenever I see new ideas I think about what problems it can solve. I am in favor of this only if it clearly solves a given problem.

If you make these critical fails only show up once a caster has already casted 20 times in a day or the like, I love the idea! It'd fix the problem we have in this game of seeing two main Magick PC archetypes (not calling out anyone particular here as I know I have played both and many of us have):

The Superhero Gick: doesn't give a hoot about the magick docs, practices magick all day, and manifests two days into the Byn with mon fireball and just blasts anyone who gives them crap in the face because "Look at these leet skills I ground up with barely any roleplay and a lot of solo grinding."

The Cursed Gick: actually follows docs, maybe hasn't even cast all their spells, and would utterly get screwed over by random crit fails, if they were as susceptible to crit fails as the skill grinding Superhero gick, because they can't mon un fireball you yet.

Screw over document defying skill grinding gicks with crit fails? Be my guest. But imagine if you got a crit fail on your first cast, which you have held off doing a long time as a disciplined roleplayer, and suddenly you die. That would blow. Let's not arbitrarily add problems but rather fix a problem with this.

[Krath]

I think a lot of the ideas spyguy list would be good additions to the game and if you are having crit failure for spells, please make sure to add them to all the skills.

That being said, I do think it is neat staff have the ability to add crit failures and successes to spellls... But I believe there are many other things that need to be worked on well before this, like updating the documentation for one.

[SpyGuy]

Whenever I see new ideas I think about what problems it can solve. I am in favor of this only if it clearly solves a given problem.

If you make these critical fails only show up once a caster has already casted 20 times in a day or the like, I love the idea! It'd fix the problem we have in this game of seeing two main Magick PC archetypes (not calling out anyone particular here as I know I have played both and many of us have):

The Superhero Gick: doesn't give a hoot about the magick docs, practices magick all day, and manifests two days into the Byn with mon fireball and just blasts anyone who gives them crap in the face because "Look at these leet skills I ground up with barely any roleplay and a lot of solo grinding."

The Cursed Gick: actually follows docs, maybe hasn't even cast all their spells, and would utterly get screwed over by random crit fails, if they were as susceptible to crit fails as the skill grinding Superhero gick, because they can't mon un fireball you yet.

Screw over document defying skill grinding gicks with crit fails? Be my guest. But imagine if you got a crit fail on your first cast, which you have held off doing a long time as a disciplined roleplayer, and suddenly you die. That would blow. Let's not arbitrarily add problems but rather fix a problem with this.

I'm replying way too much to my own thread but that's what you all get while I procrastinate from doing work.

I feel you.  I tried in the ideas above to have them mostly be flavor or annoyances, not anything that in normal circumstances would get a magicker killed.  Since I'm assuming criticals will be able to be spell specific it could also be that the Tier 1 spells are given minor critical failures while Tier 2 or Tier 3 spells become increasingly dangerous.  Even if something like fireball had a chance to hit the caster, well if they're casting it at a low power level it probably wouldn't be terrible.  I like the idea though that if you are channeling a mon fireball there's a very small chance that it backfires and blows you or an ally up.  Gives casters reason to not go for the max power level every time.

To Krath:  There's actually a project dedicated to updating the help files! We've got a bunch already checked over and revisions in the pipeline but work continues on it and could always use more sets of eyes :  https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,56715.0.html

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

My call?

Either make these crits fails/successes do minorly bad/good things to the non-mages a magicker is around, or kill this idea that magickers have to be shunned all the time and if you don't exclude them from everything you're a bad player. Do one or the other. Because I hate segregation in the context we have it in, and it just seems ... ugh.

Anti-small playerbase.

I can get behind things happening to people around the magicker, but it should never, at face value, be life threatening. Losing 10 hp, when at max hp, isn't life threatening. Losing 10 hp when you have 9 left would be horrible. And I think that they should happen to people around the magicker, not to the magicker themselves.

[Armaddict]

I think a lot of the ideas spyguy list would be good additions to the game and if you are having crit failure for spells, please make sure to add them to all the skills.

Not gonna lie.  My original reaction to the announcement had nothing to do with spells.  I immediately drifted towards passive skills/traits that could be added to an enhanced character creation process.  Skills that enhance critical successes and decrease the chance of critical failures are a big first step...particularly if you -do- add critical effects to all skills.

Could be highly adaptable over time towards more character variation, and away from the 'everyone can do most things' method that the current classes emphasize.