Crafting Difficulty Descriptors

[ShaiHulud]

If it doesn't make sense, make it make sense.
Krath damned hunter brought me a beat up shell!
Distracted, wondering who that new blonde is passing through the room
The moons, sun, you've got hemorrhoids.
Why won't they stop talking! Can't they see I'm busy with something important!

Maybe the fails are there for you to be creative about your failures.

[Riev]

Maybe the fails are there for you to be creative about your failures.

Failing an "effortless" craft 4 times in a row... I can emote all I want about how I'm concentrating or how I'm in a room all by myself, it won't have any effect.

Why should I emote the failure 4 times in a row? Why not just change "effortless" to "simple". I can fail a simple craft. I can not understand how I'm failing effortless crafts.

[LindseyBalboa]

I can effortlessly pour a glass of water. I might still spill some if I'm distracted.

I can effortlessly roll a joint without looking. Sometimes a stem is hiding in here and pokes a hole in the paper.

I can type effortlessly, exceedingly so, and very quickly: but sometimes I typo (more if I'm on my MacBook Pro, but that's a keyboard issue).

I can effortlessly get into the shower without even thinking about it, but sometimes I might slip a little due to circumstances outside of my control.

I can, without any conscious effort on my part, do a lot of things, and each of those things can go wrong due to circumstances at the time.

Your skill at something does not change the exterior circumstances in which you are making that action.

[LindseyBalboa]

I can effortlessly pour a glass of water. I might still spill some if I'm distracted.

I can effortlessly roll a joint without looking. Sometimes a stem is hiding in here and pokes a hole in the paper.

I can type effortlessly, exceedingly so, and very quickly: but sometimes I typo (more if I'm on my MacBook Pro, but that's a keyboard issue).

I can effortlessly get into the shower without even thinking about it, but sometimes I might slip a little due to circumstances outside of my control.

I can, without any conscious effort on my part, do a lot of things, and each of those things can go wrong due to circumstance.

Your skill at something does not change the exterior circumstances in which you are making that action.

[Fernandezj]

Everyone is just playing the semantics game to justify unclear descriptors.
This is peak GDB and why its so hard to have a discussion about anything.

[Fernandezj]

I can effortlessly pour a glass of water. I might still spill some if I'm distracted.

I can effortlessly roll a joint without looking. Sometimes a stem is hiding in here and pokes a hole in the paper.

I can type effortlessly, exceedingly so, and very quickly: but sometimes I typo (more if I'm on my MacBook Pro, but that's a keyboard issue).

I can effortlessly get into the shower without even thinking about it, but sometimes I might slip a little due to circumstances outside of my control.

I can, without any conscious effort on my part, do a lot of things, and each of those things can go wrong due to circumstance.

Your skill at something does not change the exterior circumstances in which you are making that action.

If you are a master woodworker you should not be so easily distracted that youre tripping and falling in the shower with regularity while trying to make a simple wooden chess piece. You are arguing totally different things that don't make sense in the context of a crafting discussion.

I shouldn't fail to make a stone round, as a master stonecarver with decent tools, four times in a row. Arguing "it gives you chances to roleplay your failures" is a cop out for a poor description of the skill level. I would rather they be more realistic/accurate descriptions (even if it means there are more of them, or even if it means I'm not truly a master), then having to be surprised why I can't do a simple rote task.

I would much rather things say something like Talented or Expert than "Master", or Easy and Simple instead of "Effortless". They set different expectations.

Like in all likelihood, with numeric based code systems, master is just like 80 or 90 in a skill that goes to 100, and similarly with the effortless skill level. So more like a 10% chance of error. But who knows.

[betweenford]

If you are at the point where you're literally maxed out on a crafting skill (beyond being at base level master), I highly recommend wielding two (sensible) tools for your craft. Even average tools help a ton to the point where it becomes ridiculously unlikely for your master level character to fail, barring certain circumstances. But yeah.... that 10-20% chance of failure at master can be...................... fun, without tools.

[LindseyBalboa]

I can effortlessly pour a glass of water. I might still spill some if I'm distracted.

I can effortlessly roll a joint without looking. Sometimes a stem is hiding in here and pokes a hole in the paper.

I can type effortlessly, exceedingly so, and very quickly: but sometimes I typo (more if I'm on my MacBook Pro, but that's a keyboard issue).

I can effortlessly get into the shower without even thinking about it, but sometimes I might slip a little due to circumstances outside of my control.

I can, without any conscious effort on my part, do a lot of things, and each of those things can go wrong due to circumstance.

Your skill at something does not change the exterior circumstances in which you are making that action.

If you are a master woodworker you should not be so easily distracted that youre tripping and falling in the shower with regularity while trying to make a simple wooden chess piece. You are arguing totally different things that don't make sense in the context of a crafting discussion.

I shouldn't fail to make a stone round, as a master stonecarver with decent tools, four times in a row. Arguing "it gives you chances to roleplay your failures" is a cop out for a poor description of the skill level. I would rather they be more realistic/accurate descriptions (even if it means there are more of them, or even if it means I'm not truly a master), then having to be surprised why I can't do a simple rote task.

I would much rather things say something like Talented or Expert than "Master", or Easy and Simple instead of "Effortless". They set different expectations.

Like in all likelihood, with numeric based code systems, master is just like 80 or 90 in a skill that goes to 100, and similarly with the effortless skill level. So more like a 10% chance of error. But who knows.

You're picking out one example using appeal to ridicule, an informal fallacy. But okay I'll play along. Let's focus on the craft of joint rolling. A little easier than smoothing a stone with neolithic technology. It can still go wrong for many reasons: a weak paper, a hidden stem, flower is too sticky, the air blows suddenly in a gust of wind, etc. Done focusing on that because it easily backed up what I was saying.

Because again.

Your skill at something has no bearing on exterior circumstances. You can be 100%, all the time, perfect, masterful, the best in the world at a craft - and outside circumstances will still change the outcome. The best painters make easy mistakes. The best bakers still burn bread. The best coders still typo. The best baristas are foiled because of humidity changes in the air throwing off the taste of the carefully ground and weighed espresso.

These failures don't reflect skill.

[ShaiHulud]

Maybe the fails are there for you to be creative about your failures.

Failing an "effortless" craft 4 times in a row... I can emote all I want about how I'm concentrating or how I'm in a room all by myself, it won't have any effect.

Why should I emote the failure 4 times in a row? Why not just change "effortless" to "simple". I can fail a simple craft. I can not understand how I'm failing effortless crafts.

Oh, for Krath's sake then, let us all just know effortless is 'near effortless'. If some folks want that extra descriptor to make sense for them, maybe staff will add it for you.
But I think, much of the designs of the game are to promote role play, emotes...interaction with the world around and others.
I'm well aware that I can fail crafts that I am Master in, and sometimes in jarring inconsistency, but again, it is an -excuse- to roleplay why. You don't have to.

[hyzhenhok]

I can effortlessly pour a glass of water. I might still spill some if I'm distracted.

I can effortlessly roll a joint without looking. Sometimes a stem is hiding in here and pokes a hole in the paper.

I can type effortlessly, exceedingly so, and very quickly: but sometimes I typo (more if I'm on my MacBook Pro, but that's a keyboard issue).

I can effortlessly get into the shower without even thinking about it, but sometimes I might slip a little due to circumstances outside of my control.

I can, without any conscious effort on my part, do a lot of things, and each of those things can go wrong due to circumstance.

Your skill at something does not change the exterior circumstances in which you are making that action.

If you are a master woodworker you should not be so easily distracted that youre tripping and falling in the shower with regularity while trying to make a simple wooden chess piece. You are arguing totally different things that don't make sense in the context of a crafting discussion.

I shouldn't fail to make a stone round, as a master stonecarver with decent tools, four times in a row. Arguing "it gives you chances to roleplay your failures" is a cop out for a poor description of the skill level. I would rather they be more realistic/accurate descriptions (even if it means there are more of them, or even if it means I'm not truly a master), then having to be surprised why I can't do a simple rote task.

I would much rather things say something like Talented or Expert than "Master", or Easy and Simple instead of "Effortless". They set different expectations.

Like in all likelihood, with numeric based code systems, master is just like 80 or 90 in a skill that goes to 100, and similarly with the effortless skill level. So more like a 10% chance of error. But who knows.

You're picking out one example using appeal to ridicule, an informal fallacy. But okay I'll play along. Let's focus on the craft of joint rolling. A little easier than smoothing a stone with neolithic technology. It can still go wrong for many reasons: a weak paper, a hidden stem, flower is too sticky, the air blows suddenly in a gust of wind, etc. Done focusing on that because it easily backed up what I was saying.

Because again.

Your skill at something has no bearing on exterior circumstances. You can be 100%, all the time, perfect, masterful, the best in the world at a craft - and outside circumstances will still change the outcome. The best painters make easy mistakes. The best bakers still burn bread. The best coders still typo. The best baristas are foiled because of humidity changes in the air throwing off the taste of the carefully ground and weighed espresso.

These failures don't reflect skill.

Half the time the echo is literally "you're a stupid klutz." And by suggesting we make up extenuating circumstances to explain the unrealistic failure rate you pretty much admit that the failure rate is unrealistic.

It doesn't have to be you can literally never fail -- as discussed earlier, the issue is that the failure rate is too high, not that it necessarily has to be 0%. I don't have a 0% chance of tripping when I walk to the kitchen, but it's certainly not 10% no matter what kind of extenuating circumstances I want to make up, and "just dual wield two canes and the failure chance will go away" doesn't help.

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask that crafting feel like most other skills in the game -- with master skill level and the right attributes, certain tasks should have a failure rate of <1%. Why shouldn't crafters get to reach the same badass heights that other classes reach with other skills? "I'm such a crafting badass I don't ruin materials on the easiest crafts" seems like an incredibly modest ask in a game where 100% undetectable ninja pickpockets who are never caught are possible.

[Fernandezj]

I can effortlessly pour a glass of water. I might still spill some if I'm distracted.

I can effortlessly roll a joint without looking. Sometimes a stem is hiding in here and pokes a hole in the paper.

I can type effortlessly, exceedingly so, and very quickly: but sometimes I typo (more if I'm on my MacBook Pro, but that's a keyboard issue).

I can effortlessly get into the shower without even thinking about it, but sometimes I might slip a little due to circumstances outside of my control.

I can, without any conscious effort on my part, do a lot of things, and each of those things can go wrong due to circumstance.

Your skill at something does not change the exterior circumstances in which you are making that action.

If you are a master woodworker you should not be so easily distracted that youre tripping and falling in the shower with regularity while trying to make a simple wooden chess piece. You are arguing totally different things that don't make sense in the context of a crafting discussion.

I shouldn't fail to make a stone round, as a master stonecarver with decent tools, four times in a row. Arguing "it gives you chances to roleplay your failures" is a cop out for a poor description of the skill level. I would rather they be more realistic/accurate descriptions (even if it means there are more of them, or even if it means I'm not truly a master), then having to be surprised why I can't do a simple rote task.

I would much rather things say something like Talented or Expert than "Master", or Easy and Simple instead of "Effortless". They set different expectations.

Like in all likelihood, with numeric based code systems, master is just like 80 or 90 in a skill that goes to 100, and similarly with the effortless skill level. So more like a 10% chance of error. But who knows.

You're picking out one example using appeal to ridicule, an informal fallacy. But okay I'll play along. Let's focus on the craft of joint rolling. A little easier than smoothing a stone with neolithic technology. It can still go wrong for many reasons: a weak paper, a hidden stem, flower is too sticky, the air blows suddenly in a gust of wind, etc. Done focusing on that because it easily backed up what I was saying.

Because again.

Your skill at something has no bearing on exterior circumstances. You can be 100%, all the time, perfect, masterful, the best in the world at a craft - and outside circumstances will still change the outcome. The best painters make easy mistakes. The best bakers still burn bread. The best coders still typo. The best baristas are foiled because of humidity changes in the air throwing off the taste of the carefully ground and weighed espresso.

These failures don't reflect skill.

The point of skill levels is to indicate some sort of control over things. If skill levels don't matter, because at any point you can just have a brain aneurysm, as you suggest, then get rid of skill levels.

And quoting your own post for emphasis shows you've really made up your mind. So no point in really having a discourse with you.

[LindseyBalboa]

I can effortlessly pour a glass of water. I might still spill some if I'm distracted.

I can effortlessly roll a joint without looking. Sometimes a stem is hiding in here and pokes a hole in the paper.

I can type effortlessly, exceedingly so, and very quickly: but sometimes I typo (more if I'm on my MacBook Pro, but that's a keyboard issue).

I can effortlessly get into the shower without even thinking about it, but sometimes I might slip a little due to circumstances outside of my control.

I can, without any conscious effort on my part, do a lot of things, and each of those things can go wrong due to circumstance.

Your skill at something does not change the exterior circumstances in which you are making that action.

If you are a master woodworker you should not be so easily distracted that youre tripping and falling in the shower with regularity while trying to make a simple wooden chess piece. You are arguing totally different things that don't make sense in the context of a crafting discussion.

I shouldn't fail to make a stone round, as a master stonecarver with decent tools, four times in a row. Arguing "it gives you chances to roleplay your failures" is a cop out for a poor description of the skill level. I would rather they be more realistic/accurate descriptions (even if it means there are more of them, or even if it means I'm not truly a master), then having to be surprised why I can't do a simple rote task.

I would much rather things say something like Talented or Expert than "Master", or Easy and Simple instead of "Effortless". They set different expectations.

Like in all likelihood, with numeric based code systems, master is just like 80 or 90 in a skill that goes to 100, and similarly with the effortless skill level. So more like a 10% chance of error. But who knows.

You're picking out one example using appeal to ridicule, an informal fallacy. But okay I'll play along. Let's focus on the craft of joint rolling. A little easier than smoothing a stone with neolithic technology. It can still go wrong for many reasons: a weak paper, a hidden stem, flower is too sticky, the air blows suddenly in a gust of wind, etc. Done focusing on that because it easily backed up what I was saying.

Because again.

Your skill at something has no bearing on exterior circumstances. You can be 100%, all the time, perfect, masterful, the best in the world at a craft - and outside circumstances will still change the outcome. The best painters make easy mistakes. The best bakers still burn bread. The best coders still typo. The best baristas are foiled because of humidity changes in the air throwing off the taste of the carefully ground and weighed espresso.

These failures don't reflect skill.

The point of skill levels is to indicate some sort of control over things. If skill levels don't matter, because at any point you can just have a brain aneurysm, as you suggest, then get rid of skill levels.

And quoting your own post for emphasis shows you've really made up your mind. So no point in really having a discourse with you.

Bro you've literally misquoted me in every response and used farcical attempts at fallacy arguments without ever once actually addressing a point in a salient, coherent manner. If I have to keep quoting what I wrote so you read it before knee-jerk responding to three random words picked out of my posts, I guess I can. "You're wrong but I don't wish you ill will, stranger on the internet," -Lindsey. I can go all day. However:

Skill levels matter a lot when it comes to success, crafting or doing anything else. But there are other, exterior circumstances that will change the outcome of an action, regardless of the skill level of the actor. This is being reflected, very obviously, in the mechanics of the crafting code which is also trying to offset the fact that you can make a table in 30 seconds, 50 times in a row.

To be honest, if you're crafting 4+ things in a row, you'll probably start messing up, if you want to be realistic about it. You'd also take hours and hours instead of seconds, if you want to be realistic about it.

I completely understand that the ACTUAL issue people have is it seems like people don't like the word 'effortless' the same way people get mad on the GDB because 'master weapons are too hard to get' or 'even with master I'm still just a regular person and not a super hero' etc. But asking for less than 1% fail rates and also being able to unrealistically craft something in 30 seconds and do it nonstop without ever actually getting tired may be a bit much.

tl;dr Failing a few times is the obvious mechanical trade-off to instant crafting. Effortless is obviously referring to your ability, not the actual act of creation, but I could personally care less if the word changes; if people are happy about it, then hell yeah.

[Khorm]

since this is on the verge of becoming too contentious to continue, i'd like to propose a solution that we can all agree on.

this is surprisingly simple.

we already have a system in place that recognizes our greatest achievers, but what it DOESNT do is offer a substantial in-character reward.

it's easy.

three karma gets a passive boost to only craft skills (except component crafting and metal smithing). this is just enough of a boost to craft 10000 effortless batches of eggs without a single fail.

two karma and below get whatever the other math works out to.

[Pariah]

Remember to debate the merit of posts and not attack others.

I'm also not sure if Karma for a crafting boost would be worth it because there are already crafts that if you don't learn them in order you'll be lost.

[X-D]

Or, Just change one single word.


Really cannot believe so much more has been argued.

And LindseyBalboa.

Rolling a joint is apprentice craft, We are talking novice crafts with master skill and tools. So novice craft, Packing a pipe when all alone in a glass floored room with a tamping tool and so no possible way to lose anything even if you did drop some. Although, I have never failed to pack a pipe, Not ever, not when I started as a near teen or when I quite 15 years of daily use later.

And I am going to use the word silly here as well because the other problem with many things put in the game is that the people that put them in, be they players or staff have no practical knowledge Of the craft they are trying to describe.

"Smoothing a stone with neolithic technology" Would actually be nearly impossible to fail even if you had a kid on the tit and were telling a story.

And the entire arguement of Oh, you get to practice your fail emotes is for the most part silly as well. When the PC is alone in a room with the correct tools. Does it really make sense to have to make up some distraction to explain that though yu were just rubbing two rocks together for some reason you decided to slam one into the other, breaking one and degrading the other? Um...NO.

Honestly, if changing one single word is too hard then the next best thing is to have effortless crafts NOT COST MATERIAL on a fail. At least that can be role played around with ease...Ooops, Almost started cutting the wrong spot, Start over, Oops, forgot to wet my smoothing stone, Start over.

I mean, I hate how crafting has gotten so I avoid it like the plague now days, so I don't have a dog in the fight other then I agree things should make some kind of sense. And there is VERY little of that in arm crafting to begin with.

[LindseyBalboa]

Okay first of all don't underestimate my joint rolling skills lol bro you don't know.

[ShaiHulud]

'rolls a joint while performing some great head'
I got this bros!

[X-D]

True enough

But not really the point.

Well, maybe. Let us assume you have the correct tools, Say A good grinder and your material is top notch along with fav papers, And let us assume it is apprentice skill, I mean loading a bowl would be novice. Anyway, Would you fail 1 out of 5 times? With the above tools and materials, I am betting it would be closer to one in a hundred if using one hand and riding on a public bus. But lets say you DID fail, What would that fail be? Would you start to roll and then just suddenly go into a frenzy and shred the paper and throw the green all over the room? No, Even if a stem somehow got past everything and was still large enough to poke a hole in the paper you would get a new paper and start over with the remaining MJ.

This is the great problem with crafting difficulty descriptions, Skill level descriptions and fail % and fail results.

It is not an issue to RP fail when your PC has lower skill, even on lower crafts. You hand the works to a first timer and there is every chance of loss of product several times in a row, paper and all, and easy to play off.

I really think the best change would be for there to be less loss of materials depending on if the craft is effortless, easy etc. It would be pretty realistic at least.

Hell, I am still trying to figure out the in game fletchery fail, I have made tens of thousands of arrows And I have never failed the assembly in a manner that destroys anything, let alone the shaft. Oh sure, I still fail making the arrow head when using stone/glass, Not steel or bone though, Maybe fail to craft 1 in 500 shafts, never failed on the fletchings themselves. And considering how the attachments are made...how exactly do you mangle feathers and shaft with string/hide and glue?

And I use a knife...rarely anything else.

On the other side, I also cannot figure out how you manage to use a branch to make arrow shafts, that would account for fails on MAKING the shaft I guess. (pssst, you use logs irl)

Anyway, Still would be fine with simply changing how that one single rank is described as the easiest thing that makes any sense. Though I agree that master skill and effortless should just be reduced to around 1% chance to fail, way more realistic to how things are described.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

... I hate how crafting has gotten so I avoid it like the plague now days ...

I'm down with everything you said, except ... this. What? Crafting is WAY better now than it used to be!

[X-D]

Nah, Brew is the worst of them, Alright, I have to have 3 different herbs, they will not be near each other and I get 2 chances to fail...and Oh, I am likely to not remember what the hell it is in a week. Weeee. NOT.

As to the rest, 90% of crafts never made much sense but at least I could emote using the correct tool. Now, Oh hey, you need to be in a room with this object, You need a tool that makes no sense to the craft most the time. Oh, and if you fail, not only will you somehow shred/shatter your materials but must slam your tool onto the ground every time because you will damage the tool as well. The tool descriptions don't make sense, You need a smoothing tool, Oh, here is a whetstone...Nope, that is a sharpening tool...UM, WTF do you think sharpening is? Nothing is a tool cept a "tool" item. Add to that an unreasonable fail rate when mastered and fail messages and results that are usually rather silly...like every single cooking fail. I need scissors to cut cloth even though they should not even exist but cannot use a razor sharp bit of obsidian even though it would be WAY better.

Way more hassle then it is worth for me. If others like it, great. I don't. Most my PCs use slings just because bullets actually DO make sense, have a low fail rate and if you break the rock into a billion bits, forage rocks...Woot.

Wanna make a dart though, Oh, I have a thorn and a feather, craft into dart, You slip and shatter the thorn and the feather for some reason explodes...why? Don't know. I guess string/twine/sinew etc in arm have special crushing properties.

[Patuk]

This is a crafting thread, and no crafting thread is ever complete without a mention of every chef's bane: dusty carru meat.

[X-D]

So, I was thinking of the RL skills I have, mostly the ones which are basically master. (have plenty that are not even close) And how long it took to get there for many of them.
In most cases that was several years, Though certain skills bleed over into others. So, like lets use wood working, To get to a mastery in that took around 6 years but That was also with plenty of carpentry back round before it. But the woodworking made fletchery pretty easy to master.

SO...

What if crafting skills took much longer to get to master, say...three times as long. But not even across the scale. But progressively slower. IRL it is usually pretty easy to get to what in arm is "apprentice" and even Journeyman, Which in many crafts and trades is about as far as most people get, Getting to advanced and beyond tends to take commitment.

But the payoff is that when you get there you fail WAY less, Like no more then 20% on even the hardest crafts while "effortless" Would be 1%. Assuming correct tools and all that.

[LindseyBalboa]

'rolls a joint while performing some great head'
I got this bros!

See now that's effortless crafting you got going on there.

[Delirium]

I'm seeing a lot of words for a problem that has a simple explanation:

RNG gonna RNG.

[Riev]

I'm seeing a lot of words for a problem that has a simple explanation:

RNG gonna RNG.

Effortless crafts having a 20% chance of failure is less about RNG, and more about the idea that Effortless shouldn't carry a 1/5 chance of failure.

In simple Tabletop gaming, when you're really good at something (expertise), you can't fail more than 5% of the time, and thats the 'critical failure' rate. Because you're SO good at that one thing, that even rolling low, your bonuses make up for it.

Either effortless is effortless, or it isn't. Its not about RNG, its that 20% failure rate at anything isn't effortless.

Any argument beyond that is just "I don't like change" or "it doesn't bother me". If it doesn't bother you, then changing it won't bother you.