Thoughts on changing Red Storm

[Anonymous]

I know I've written these before, but I like daydreaming, so here are a few changes I think would help Red Storm, both from a PC standpoint and an overall IC standpoint.

• Extend the taurpalin to include the outdoor rooms immediately adjacent to the village.
  
  Right now when Red Storm gets hit with the right wind, which happens multiple times a week on average, you can be stuck inside the gates for a good long long time with precious little to do.  Extending the taurpalin so that it covered up to one room around it (I know that's a huge space, but pretending here that its maybe an extra dozen cords) would give people a little bit more feeling of space.  Also it would allow for some actiivity in spite of the sand.  Foraging, spice hunting, or just staring at the wicked sandstorm and shaking your head.  Heck, run outside and kill each other or at least spar.  It's something.
  
  
• Expand Red Storm's bazaar's NPC presence.
  
  I get the idea that people in Red Storm aren't supposed to be raking in the sid hand over fist, and that's completely cool.  But Red Storm's bazaar could feature more merchants without changing that assuming that there was a hidden tax of some sort on crafted items purchased from PCs to represent the light market there.
  
  As it stands right now Red Storm does not support merchant or crafter type PCs and those are the folks who are often the lifeblood of RP since they aren't going out and getting killed as often as combat roles.  I know there are several different types of items that I just cannot find a buyer for whenever a PC of mine wanders into Red Storm.  I think that is one of the things that people who are making an indoorsy PC consider when choosing a starting location.  I know that Red Storm would be very to me when I make my next merchant NPC if I could be somewhat sure that I'll be able to sell everything that I craft up, even if its at a very reduced price.  At least the market won't be saturated.
  
  
• Move the northern gate guards outside the gates.
  
  Actually this is something that I think should be the case in all cities and villages.  It seems to me that gate guards would be outside of the city or village's gates so that they could be keeping an eye on the area, watching for any trouble coming down the line.  It seems to make more sense than actually letting the person get past the gates before the guards have given them a good look over to make sure they aren't a troublemaker, magicker or what have you.
  
  This would also have the added benefit of avoiding those situations where Mr. Non-Fighter steps outside the gates and immediately is rushed by an uber NPC from their right or left that was lingering around just outside the gates.

That's my spiel.  I appreciate all attempts at consolidation that have been made, but assuming Red Storm is going to stick around as a PC starting location, I'd love to have just a bit more added to it.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I just had a Red Storm ranger who survived for a good 20 hours, with immortal support.  Believe me, that's god-like.

A couple simple suggestions:

Make water CHEAPER:  Nobody likes to go out of the gates and make one-hundered coins, only to get back inside and have to buy four-hundered coins worth of water.

Add an armor tailor:  However, do NOT add more NPCs selling armor.  Red Storm is HOT.  There is no market for any armor heavier than light sandcloth.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I truely agree with the second suggestion. Every place should be able to support PC crafters. Any village that has a market place should have a market for PC crafts.

[Anonymous]

I just had a Red Storm ranger who survived for a good 20 hours, with immortal support.  Believe me, that's god-like.

I'm with you on that ERS.  A ways back I had a mul with amazing stats that ended up getting killed to:

• 3 beetles.
  
• 1 scrab.
  
• 2 siltflyers
  
• 1 desert tarantula.

They weren't all in the same room, but in the course of running away and trying to get to safety, he met the rest.

That's a hell of a lot of predators in as relatively few a rooms as I ran through.  [broken record]I really think a reduction in the numbers of beasties is in order.[/broken record]

I lasted a good 2 days I believe.  So, nyah.

[Rindan]

I think CRW hits on a major issue with Red Storm.  I think the biggest problem with Red Storm comes down to what its economy allows.  OOCly, Red Storm's economy is barren.  There is spice, rocks, and salt.  If you need to make something it better be out of one of those three things.  I don't mind the lack of selection in terms of things you can buy there.  I don't even mind that it is hard to sell some things there.  I am okay with that because there is a niche market a PC can fill, and I think that is what Red Storm is all about.  OOCly, if you want a playground where you don't have to worry about a higher power, like templars or noble houses trying to crush you the second you raise your head, go to Red Storm.  It is one of the few places left for an outlaw and other unsavory types to go that doesn't require you to be a ranger.

There are a few things I would like to seen done with the Red Storm economy.

First as CRW already suggested, I would like basic materials.  Linen, sandcloth, basic tools, a little leather, and a place to buy food that isn't a tavern.  If you want silk, you probably have to import it, but you should be able to readily buy linen and sandcloth.  A lot of the bottom layer materials should be available in my opinion.  This way, there is the possibility that an independent merchant could set himself up in Red Storm.  Granted, he isn't going to have roaring business, but a couple hundred 'sids worth of business a week could at least keep him alive.

Second, it would be nice if the area had more resources.  Anyone who has lived in the area knows that as far as things to hunt and kill go, there isn't much, and a lot of what little there is you need an army to kill.  It would be nice if there were some other things that could be brought in, especially things to make leather items out of.  I am not so much worried about being able to come home and sell a dozen hides for a lot of money.  I would rather be able to come home with a few shitty hides and make enough 'sid to get by, or as a crafter have enough hides come into town where you could make something.

Third, spice needs a make over in the area.  If you try living off collecting spice, you're going to die.  Forget the nasty creatures that roam the area.  You just can't possibly even begin to hope to collect enough spice to cover your water costs.  There are two quick fixes to this, either make more spice, or make spice worth more.  I personally like the idea that the place runs on spice, and so would much rather see there be more spice.  Without going too IC, last time I checked, spice in Red Storm was bought for nearly nothing.  On the other hand, finding spice was extremely hard.  Just make more spice in the area and I think the problem is solved.

Fourth, I know absolutely nothing of what happened to Luir's and Kurac do to the recent HRPTs, but if Luir's is no longer a starting location and Kurac is out of a home, send them to Red Storm for the love of Tek.  Absolutely nothing would rock more then having a unit of bad ass, sketchy, mother fucking, Kuraci regulars who are too rough and gruff for a city slumming it around and getting into fights.

All of this said, I think people should realize they can do a lot more to fix these issues then they imagine.  Unless the staff is specifically keeping Red Storm inhospitable (and they might be for player base reason, you would have to ask), I bet they would be resptive to well done contributions.  Namely, if you write up an NPC shopkeeper who sells linen or whatever, there is a fair chance it might be put in.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Kuraci in Red Storm...I like that idea. I like that a lot.

I always thought it might be neat if the Sandlord expelled all Kuraci merchants and expanded its overall spice production and sales, making it the sole distributor in the South, and basically cutting off them dern middle-ers. Especially now that they are all tied up. Here are the great things that could happen if this was to go through!

This extra income would allow for the overal expansion of the Red-Storm economy, from hiring more soldiers to deal with the rampant crime to hiring more spice-hunters to begin the perpetual rising cycle of success. After a few generations of wealth and prosperity it might even be possible to not only secure silt-skimmer activity, but fortify the skimmers enough so that travel would not be as threatening as it was now... and eventually lead to the discovery of the glow-stone/treasure rich Giant Islands far to the south. (Just hoping those are out there! ^_^)

All this would be in the first couple generations or more, with a more radical project coming during the peak of the glory of Red-Storm. And that would be the paving of a great road to connect the current road of Red Silt to Red Storm East far in the east. This would help in the moving and producing of grain and lead to even more prosperity!

The only downsides I can currently see are exhausting spice sources, becoming a big enough target to where the highlord sees fit to conquer, and that the Kuraci get back on their feet and come back for blood.

But those are all bridges we can burn when we come to them.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

I always thought it might be neat if the Sandlord expelled all Kuraci merchants and expanded its overall spice production and sales, making it the sole distributor in the South, and basically cutting off them dern middle-ers.

Your problem there is right in your first sentence. Spice is illegal in Allanak, and, I'd assume, in it's outlying villages. The occasional curious noble and a handful of addicted 'Rinthers isn't enough to support an entire economy. Who are they going to sell it to? Their local Red Stormers? That's a bad idea, pure in simple; wide-spread drug addiction doesn't exactly help productivy.

If you're suggesting that Red Storm work at smuggling more spice into Allanak, that'd be another big mistake on the Sandlord's part. I doubt Tektolnes would like to rule a bunch of spice addicts, and Red Storm could soon be chilling with Steinal beneath a few silt-horror sized sand dunes. In fact just about any faction seeking to smuggle a significant amount of spice into Allanak on a regular basis would just be asking for a smack-down, Highlord-style.

Kurac, however, already has the men, wagons and 'sid to transport that spice to areas of the Known World ready to buy it. Red Storm is basically where spice comes from, right? So they wouldn't be transporting it wouldn't be any more costly... They'd just cut out Luir's as a rest stop. I really like the idea of Kurac setting up base there. Kudos to Rindan.

[Anonymous]

Third, spice needs a make over in the area. If you try living off collecting spice, you're going to die. Forget the nasty creatures that roam the area. You just can't possibly even begin to hope to collect enough spice to cover your water costs. There are two quick fixes to this, either make more spice, or make spice worth more. I personally like the idea that the place runs on spice, and so would much rather see there be more spice. Without going too IC, last time I checked, spice in Red Storm was bought for nearly nothing. On the other hand, finding spice was extremely hard. Just make more spice in the area and I think the problem is solved.

Or altnernatively make spice something that can be foraged.  The rate at which you will find deposits of silt and the dangers inherent to finding them make it seem like an impossible role to me.

Secondly, I don't necessarily think the prices should be changed, but going along with your point about the spice, it would be nice if there was no limit on the amount merchants will buy.  My whole point with having more options to sell things isn't to make me or other players there rich.  Its to give them something to do other than the number one thing people at Red Storm do:

Leave.

[Xygax]

Some of these ideas have already been implemented (there IS more spice), and some are (I think/hope) coming.  My number one wish is to see the cost of water (fluid in general) drop a bit (a substantial bit, even).  My number two wish is to see an armor repair/resizing stall go in (now all I need to do is find a staffer who runs a clan that deals in armor).  I hope we -don't- see too much in the way of a wider economy, however.  If you want to trade in cloth and leathers, you should operate out of Red Storm and find ways to do your trading elsewhere.  My third wish is to see more and smaller critters near the village and perhaps see the really wicked beasties pushed AWAY from it a little.

(This post is intended from a player perspective, not staff...  except maybe the bit about the armor resizing stall

-- X

[samsara]

While I don't disagree with any of the above posts specifically, I disagree in general. I love Red Storm as it is. All the factors mentioned above help to keep it a low populated community. Red Storm is very small, you get about 4-10 regular players and all of a sudden it starts getting crowded. Anymore and it's just too stuffed. I enjoy that life is harsh, that a horror could be around the corner. I like the flavor and the limited goods. There's nothing stopping a merchant/crafter from working, but he has to work in the goods the community provides, and import the rest. Make things you can't sell, arrange for exporting to Nak. You think that's a pain in the ass, well then that makes sense, move to Nak, closer to thriving markets. I'll bite on the tailor/armor resizer, and even slightly lowered water costs. But leave the goods and the critters as is!

Red Storm suffers some because of the above, but it suffers more from the fact it's not a destination location, or on the way to one. Much like other small communities in the world. And that's the way it should stay.

PS
There is always room for change in everything, new critters, new goods, etc. I just think the remoteness, and difficulty of Red Storm does not need to be changed. If people are there, they are used to that life, and have chose it for obvious reasons. Those are the breaks.

[RideTheDivide]

Having spent a fair bit of time in Red Storm, I can tell you that some of these changes are good - especially the armor tailor - and some are bad.  Red Storm has a specific feel *because* its hard, and yes, sometimes even boring.  But if you spend some time there you would be amazed at how many people come and go and how much opportunity there is for roleplay.

As to the merchant thing... I like the fact that if you want good food or crafting material in Red Storm you have to have someone get it for you.  Lack of things is what leads to roleplay.  Here's an example from the past:

It used to be that you couldn't buy silk in the North.  Now, yes - that was somewhat unrealistic.  But it made for some great roleplay.  A noble that I worked for had to send someone down to Nak to buy some and it was a big deal when it arrived.  And it made me that much more cautious when working with it.  That was *fun* stuff.

In a lot of ways, the cities are becoming too self-reliant.  The more things NPC's can do for you, the fewer things you need a PC to get done.  My vote is to as much as possible find ways to change the games so that PC talents are needed.

[Anonymous]

RidetheDivide, that all sounds great on paper, but the problem with that is finding the PCs to do things for you when there are not people around playing because it lacks certain infrastructures.

Look at the IC board in Red Storm.  There were, if memory serves, about 5-10 posts made in 2002.

Needing and using PCs is all well and good, but only when there are PCs to draw on who don't get killed every 10 hours and go play somewhere else for a bit.

I certainly agree with the sentiment that Red Storm people shouldn't be getting rich, but without any NPCs to support a new crafter getting started, I think Red Storm will continue to suffer from a lack of tavern dwellers who are key to providing continuity in a population center.  That's why I think all types of crafts ought to be purchased in Red Storm by NPCs, but just at a lower price to cover the cost of exporting them to Allanak.   In reality why would a Kadian merchant turn down an offer for a ring or some other trinket at well under half the price it would fetch in Allanak?

[Thanos]

You can make a living in Red Storm. More than that, you can make good coin. The resources are there as well as the markets, you just need to be able to exploit them. Not everyone can do this, and definately no new PC is going to be able to do this. The times Red Storm has been a booming place have been times experienced PC's have set up shop there. Once this occurs new pc's can be brought in to help exploit other niches in the RSV markets.

The key is getting things started.

PS I hear things may be started, but you didnt hear that from me.

PSS As far as the local fauna goes. Yes it is deadly. And yes with only a touch of bad luck you can loose a 20-30 day PC. Is this too much? Perhaps... but i've come to like the inherent danger here. RSV is one of the last places we old folks can come and get that feeling of death is inevitable and around every corner feeling that we all have when we start arm.

A *plunk, plunk* is heard as the black, brutally scarred dwarven elder plops two sid down.

[Rindan]

As to the merchant thing... I like the fact that if you want good food or crafting material in Red Storm you have to have someone get it for you.  Lack of things is what leads to roleplay.  Here's an example from the past:

It used to be that you couldn't buy silk in the North.  Now, yes - that was somewhat unrealistic.  But it made for some great roleplay.  A noble that I worked for had to send someone down to Nak to buy some and it was a big deal when it arrived.  And it made me that much more cautious when working with it.  That was *fun* stuff.

In a lot of ways, the cities are becoming too self-reliant.  The more things NPC's can do for you, the fewer things you need a PC to get done.  My vote is to as much as possible find ways to change the games so that PC talents are needed.

I tend to agree to some extent, but I think it can be taken to an extreme where it becomes unrealistic.  For instance, I think you should be able to buy stuff like flour and plain sandcloth with no fancy coloring in Red Storm.  I shouldn't need to import it from Allanak.  Now, if you want a fancy meal or clothing in a color other then white, brown, black, or red, it seems reasonable that you would need to import what you need.  I don't want to see rich merchants, but I do like the idea of a guy who can make the absolute bare essentials being able to pawn off their stuff to PCs.

Red Storm has a lot of charm in my opinion.  I love it when a strong leader comes into the area and orginizes things and gets the place moving.  I wouldn't mind it having a stable population hanging on the fringes.  Hell, just talking about it makes me want to dump my character and fire up a Red Storm mul.

[Wondering]

Hell, just talking about it makes me want to dump my character and fire up a Red Storm mul.

Speaking of...... where do Red Storm muls come from?

[Rindan]

It is fairly safe to say that almost every single one of them is an escaped slave.  Raising a mul takes a lot of resources that pretty much only a slaving house has.  Further, no human female would be stupid enough to carry a dwarven baby on her own free will.  Generally, giving birth to a mul is death for the mother.  There might be some exceptions where a mul does not come from a slaving house, but I imagine they would be very rare.

[Gesht]

For instance, I think you should be able to buy stuff like flour and plain sandcloth with no fancy coloring in Red Storm.

That is pretty much the only thing I agree with adding. (I do agree with fixing the problems with making money sifting spice, but I and others have been working on it already.)

Red Storm is hard to make a living in because it has a rotten economy. It's supposed to have a rotten economy, though. If you want to make cash in Red Storm village, you have got to be a really resourceful PC. I had no trouble making a good living in RSV, nor did other PCs I've seen. It's just an alien environment, as compared to the rest of Zalanthas.

Adding an armor tailor... that is a maybe. It certainly should cost more, since anything not sandcloth (or maybe linen) would have to be imported. It is debatable if this should go in at all, though I could understand it. Your typical Red Storm citizen might need to get armor resized after getting the former owner's bloodstains out. Alternately, the material cost might prevent a tailor from making a regular living. It will have to be discussed.

The price of water is not going to come down, however. Water is pretty rare, and between the two Red Storms it has to be rationed out carefully. The reason the price is so high is to reflect the fact the Sand Lord doesn't want to run out of it. It is important to keep in mind that the Red Storms are involved heavily in farming.

I've always loved Red Storm's inhospitable feel to it. Yes, it drives away most PCs. However, when one shows up who can really manage, that PC thrives and the playerbase explodes to upwards of 4 or even 5 regular characters. Red Storm Village is not supposed to be as self-sufficient as other places in the game. Red Storm is the closest thing to a small, frontier town out of the Old West you can find in the game. I really don't want to see that change, unless it is PCs who change it.

On a side note, I wouldn't mind some ideas for raw materials to be found in Red Storm stores, or some object ideas for what could be crafted from them. New things you cannot buy elsewhere... think sand worms, silt-horrors, silt-flyers, pieces of sentient races, and so on.

[Rindan]

I wasn't really suggesting anything horribly fancy.  I was more thinking along the lines of the ability to be a struggling tradesman of some sort.  One thing that you see very little of are craftsmen that work on low end sell items to PCs.  I think with the most basic of starting materials, Red Storm is one of the few places where it could happen because there are no real merchants (House PCs or NPCs) to really compete with.  A tailor/leather crafter could probably just barely squeak by if there were some basic tools and materials on hand.  Forget selling to NPCs, I am thinking PCs.  If you want something other then standard issue Red Storm gear, then a PC crafter would have a fair shot and making a sale or two.  Granted, Allanak which is just a short hop and a skip away is still competition for those who can make the trip.  I personally think if it was doable it would be a great role to be a struggling tradesmen selling to the local spice hunters.

An interesting idea would be to make Red Storm style crafts.  Instead of having 'a length of brown sandcloth (or linen)' that makes your standard clothing items, perhaps have 'a ragged length of brown sandcloth' that costs far less, but only can be used to make shitty utilitarian clothing.  This way you could allow for a crafter to survive on the fringe making things that are appropriate for the setting.  Just make the only available materials stuff that makes very cheap utilitarian items appropriate to the setting.  This way you can have crafting materials, but there is little danger of anyone getting rich easily off of it, it doesn't break the mood of the setting, but a crafter does have a chance of scrapping by with a limited amount of money.  If you are the guy to talk to I might drop you a small horde of cheap items and crafts that I think would fit the environment if you will bite on the idea.

I like Red Storm of its brutality, but I would like to see reasonable environment fitting jobs be doable.  I have survived out of Red Storm, but I had to cheat liberally.  My spice hunter really spent most of his time in the Salt Flats collecting highly profitable salt and only ever snagged spice if it was in his path.  I would really like to see it be possible to have people surviving off the spice trade, and a person or two surviving off of people who work in the trade.  If the spice issue is being addressed, awesome.  Spice really should be he life blood of the place.

[Gesht]

Hmmm... actually that is a good suggestion, making it a bit friendlier to tailors/leatherworkers. Red Storm is supposed to have a population of highly independent artisans who are just scraping by. It gives me an idea, but it will require some NPCs and scripting to implement. Thank you for the suggestion.

[John]

One thing that would make Red Storm have a lot more players is wagons. Cheap wagons that constantly break down, are only a couple of rooms big, etc. But are wagons nonetheless.

The reason this would make Red Storm more desirable is that according to the docs merchants are suppose to like to live in Red Storm because they're out of the eye of the Templars in Allanak, but close enough to trade in Allanak.

However to travel to Red Storm and back alone is murder (even with a mount). To travel with other people is difficult. Reason being, player times. It's hard enough to get 2 people to log in at the same time. If both people don't log in though your stuck in Red Storm with no way to get to Allanak. Wagons make it easier to have VNPC guards (which gets around having to be 100% reliant on another player).

The room echos and descriptions make wagons be fairly common around the VNPC middle-class merchants (they're rickety old things but they work).

I know I'd love to make a merchant who lives in Red Storm but trades in Allanak. Unfortunately being reliant upon another player isn't something I want. I like to log in during off-peak and on-peak times, but with only having a player guard (instead of a player guard and VNPC guard) I'd get stuck in Red Storm half the time I play which isn't something I want.

While it is possible to make an independant who travels between the cities alone, your going to die eventually.

Wagons would help fix that.

*plink plink*

[sancho]

- - Wagons are insanely expensive, even crappy ones. The amount of wood and hours put into one insure that most characters, PC, NPCs, and VNPCs will never pilot their own. Giving people wagons to make RSV more popular would defeat the purpose of having a hostile world in the first place.

[John]

Yeah, that's the one flaw in the idea But seeings how wagons are so expensive and whatnot. Why do SO many VNPCs have them? I often put wagons in my merchant backgrounds (I figure if they're well to do enough to know Cavilish they're well to do enough to have a wagon).

It seems wagons are fairly common among independant VNPC merchants, whereas the amount of non-clanned PCs that have them is next to nothing.

[Anonymous]

I've always figured that the vast majority of those VNPCs were affiliated with a merchant house that can afford to fart out a few dozen wagons a year.

[Gesht]

Wagons cost great deals of money. Vast, ludicrous amounts of money. I should know; I'm developing skill_wagonmaking so crafters can torture themselves for a couple RL months.  The fact that there are a handful of room echos about wagons in a city of 100,000 people doesn't mean there are lots of them. I don't know where somone got the idea that Merchant Houses crank out wagons, but that is entirely inaccurate. Even virtually speaking. The only time a Merchant House gets a new wagon is when one of the PCs spends a few RL months RPing the construction of it.

As for backgrounds... what you have virtually doesn't impact the game. Everyone suddenly having wagons would. The goal in improving the game isn't to make it easier to do things alone. If Arm was an easy game, everyone would be playing a loner with a mysterious past. A harsh world forces people to be more realistic in their playing and acknowledge that other people are important.

Red Storm isn't supposed to be eating a huge chunk of the playerbase or providing them with a steady flow of profit. It is a farming village. Life is so hard in Red Storm the economy can't support thieves and murderers. The only one making a big profit in Red Storm is the Sand Lord. Merchants and traders go their to do business because it's the only place people will leave them the hell alone. (That may not seem appealing to some of you, but for anyone who gets burned out on diplomacy it's a sanctuary.)

I agree it should be fixed up so solo-RPers and independents can live in poverty in Red Storm. People should be able to just barely scrape by, with only enough for an occasional spice ale, travel cake, and *cough* gratification (if they save up for a couple months). Giving people wagons, or anything else for that matter, is out.


The dust cloud of Gesht looks aside to his aide and shouts, in sirihish:
____"... and cancel Christmas!"