RE: PROCLAMATION

[JustAnotherGuy]

Please... I realize that this is meant to come across as light-hearted humor with the way these are written, but could you not use all CAPs and could it just be written in a way that makes it clear.  This would make it easier to understand and honestly a clear rule.  The way it is currently written it sounds more like a staff member coming forward with a gripe.  Also, it might be good to reference any sort of rules that support this so others may know where it is coming from.

Translation of the first post:
Don't take NPC Clan Cook FREE food and use it to feed your mounts.  This is a break in immersion and frowned upon by clan staff.

Reference of Rules:
There are none that I can find in the HELP files, but I know from personal experience that this is highly frowned upon.  I would suggest we put something in the rules that states a more general rule that would fall under what is being done here.  Don't take advantage of clan benefits when it wouldn't fit game immersion and/or common sense.

Second post:
I agree and disagree here.  First I've played a crafter and GMH sponsored roles, and keeping those massive warehouses of materials organized is one of the largest pains I have ever had to deal with in the game.  I agree that it should be immersive, but I also disagree that stating the general contents of what is in the container is immersion breaking. 

If you were a person in a room and you glanced around a room with the LOOK command, you get a general idea of what containers are in a room and what might be inside them.  You wouldn't know what is specifically in the container as you would then have to LOOK IN the container to see such.

If you have to look around a room and then you see markings on containers, as a new person to a clan is then going to have to go to the clan board to reference what is in what container, or they are just going to have to keep their own notes.  That to me isn't fun, and honestly it isn't more immersive, it's actually less immersive because I'll have to reference another source to remember what is where.

My suggestion for this is to make the descriptions as immersive as possible.  "This container has random hides over its edges"  Be more description within the character limit, add as much detail as you can.

Lastly, please don't threaten to dump things around because someone doesn't follow what you want.  That isn't cool, and I'd quit a clan real quick because of something like that.  I would never want to have to clean up that mess especially if it was a GMH warehouse.  I would dread having to clean that mess up.

---

This is in no way me wanting to start any sort of argument, I just wanted to bring forward my opinion with constructive solutions to each of my points.  Text is a poor form of communication, so I mean no offense if anything comes across as such.

[Lizzie]

Second post:
I agree and disagree here.  First I've played a crafter and GMH sponsored roles, and keeping those massive warehouses of materials organized is one of the largest pains I have ever had to deal with in the game.  I agree that it should be immersive, but I also disagree that stating the general contents of what is in the container is immersion breaking. 

If you were a person in a room and you glanced around a room with the LOOK command, you get a general idea of what containers are in a room and what might be inside them.  You wouldn't know what is specifically in the container as you would then have to LOOK IN the container to see such.

If you have to look around a room and then you see markings on containers, as a new person to a clan is then going to have to go to the clan board to reference what is in what container, or they are just going to have to keep their own notes.  That to me isn't fun, and honestly it isn't more immersive, it's actually less immersive because I'll have to reference another source to remember what is where.

My suggestion for this is to make the descriptions as immersive as possible.  "This container has random hides over its edges"  Be more description within the character limit, add as much detail as you can.

Lastly, please don't threaten to dump things around because someone doesn't follow what you want.  That isn't cool, and I'd quit a clan real quick because of something like that.  I would never want to have to clean up that mess especially if it was a GMH warehouse.  I would dread having to clean that mess up.

Saying what is IN the containers using arrange or drop desc makes zero sense because as soon as that container is empty, the ldesc becomes incorrect. And not everyone is going to always remember (or know how, or even care) to change it to reflect that it is now an empty box.

It also is not helpful, because if you DO change it to make it an empty box, how will anyone know what SHOULD be put in it?

A chest with an ldesc showing that a scrap of hide has been nailed to the top, will let me know that this box is for hides.  A box arranged to depict a sword -and- a club etched into the side, is enough for me to know that weapons go in it. If it shows only a sword etched on it, and there's some other box with a club etched on it, I know, whether it's full or empty, whether the cover is on or off, that these boxes are exclusively for swords, and for clubs, respectively.

If it reeks of spice, then hey - sure that makes sense, if that is what it's always used for. Because even if it's empty, it'll still reek of all the spice that's been in it until the point when it became empty.

A big huge crate set "large enough for finished products, set away from raw materials" will let me, the player, know that yup - you guessed it. That's where the finished products go. The player and the character can see clearly that's what it's for, without you saying "this crate is filled with finished products" or "this crate is here, CONTAINING FINISHED PRODUCTS."

That's my takeaway from Shalooonsh's post. To show us how our characters will be able to tell easily what *should* be in a given box, even if that box is empty. A gem-studded box obviously holds jewels.

As for the food from the clan cook, it kind of negates the whole reasons why mounts benefit from actually eating.  I thought it was convenient to be able to pull out a couple of steaks or kalan fruits to "top off" a mount during the ride. But when I saw people getting a dozen items from the clan cook and spam-feeding their mounts in the stables before they even leave, just because it offered unlimited riding, I knew that was going to be a problem. Though it's a really convenient and handy thing to have, I feel like it's not working as intended -because- the benefits are being taken advantage of. Rather than remove food from clan buildings, asking players to not do this particular thing doesn't seem unreasonable at all. Just like clan members aren't supposed to get food from their clan cook to give or sell to other people.

[triste]

First off thanks for making this thread. I was fine with the Proclamations, they made me chuckle even if I felt personally called out by one of them a little.

It's actually the Custom Craft announcement that was sandwiched between the PROCLAMATIONs that I take big ol' mondo issue with. I have no idea what that rule provides besides killing good roleplay. You can be inspired to design something in a scene where you put care and effort into your inventions, generate fabulous roleplay for multiple people, and submit it, only to see "NOPE YOU AREN'T A KADIAN HOT SHOT."

That's called killing roleplay, not fostering it. You now have to backpedal on all your scenes, deal with people constantly asking "Why can't you create this thing we roleplayed working on creating," and having NO GOOD ROLEPLAY DERIVED ANSWER for them.

Yeah. Big no. Archimedes was inspired to invent the Archimedes Screw in a fucking bath tub. He didn't need to go to the Ancient Engineering School or the Academy of Water Studies for that shit. The fucking word "Eureka" came from his invention. It's the heckin' damn word for inspiration, and inspiration and invention can come to anyone. Inventions can also be simple and elegant. Don't kill my roleplay because only Kadius can make "pretty things." Roleplay is what matters here, so let people generate it and invent how they want to. If it was well justified by a scene, allow the craft to exist, period point blank.

[triste]

Just, frankly, the Proclamations, while phrased in a comical way, are more clear cut than the Custom Craft announcement. People should be able to roleplay and create what they want if it is justified by roleplay, it really is only harmful to people and the scenes they want to create to add, yes add, this guideline. What does (master) in a skill sheet even mean if it doesn't mean you can craft masterful things. It is an unclear and harmful guideline that is only going to result in arguments, bad roleplay, and some players arbitrarily having their roleplay backed ambitions realized while others do not.

If a rival house hires a talented crafter, Kadius can offer to pay the crafter better or hire someone to kill them. Create roleplay in game, don't kill it behind the scenes.

[Dune Bunny]

It was over a year ago now, so I can talk about this. 

But my Salarri crafter was handed the task through requests, from higher ups in the House to 'organize the storage areas to make sense'. This was a way to make it an IC way of getting rid of the rather OOC messages pinned to containers, that, while helpful, was also not very immersive. I was given the go-ahead to do it as my PC would do it, and not myself, so the bubbly little brat went and painted in pink on all the containers what was in it. An arrow on the arrow crate, some hides on the hide crate, a gemstone on gems, etc...

In the end, the containers conveyed the same, exact message as before, only in a much more immersive manner to anyone reading the room descriptions. The only complaint out of the ordeal was some funny IC grumblings about 'all the pink in the warehouse, why'd we let her do it'. Everyone that came in figured it out rather quickly, and the powers that be were happy with the new wording of the containers. So I believe it's a pretty minor thing for staff to ask, personally. Don't steal my candy if I'm wrong.   


And while it pains me, as someone that plays a majority of custom craft pcs, I have to agree with the crafting proclamation. Any time I've had a CC that might've been too nice, there's been suggestions of how to make it 'more common' and not looking like something out of a high-'sid workshop. A Kadian/Salarri/Kuraci crafting hall has the types of stations that the common populace simply doesn't have access to. Looms, etc. as well as masters of the craft with the experience on said stations to teach budding crafters. Amos might be as gifted as they come with a needle and thread, but without the access to the greatest tools of the time, he won't be making things on par with a Kadian.

While there might be some room for contesting talent vs technology, it's simply not the way staff have decided to go with the game, and that should be respected until a time they deem otherwise.

Besides, I'm sure if a player had a character that went through all the hoops to become a superstar at their craft, even outside the walls of a GMH compound, one could submit these things to staff ahead of a custom craft submission, and have it reviewed for potential. This could then lead into branching directions of this PC getting some recognition, drawing in customers for their amazing work that comes cheaper than the best, and perhaps even the eyes of jealous GMH agents that want to know why some random worker is stealing their thunder.

I wouldn't call that killing role-play, so much as adjusting future role-play to understand what staff have dictated as the norm in Zalanthas.

[triste]

While there might be some room for contesting talent vs technology, it's simply not the way staff have decided to go with the game, and that should be respected until a time they deem otherwise.

Besides, I'm sure if a player had a character that went through all the hoops to become a superstar at their craft, even outside the walls of a GMH compound, one could submit these things to staff ahead of a custom craft submission, and have it reviewed for potential. This could then lead into branching directions of this PC getting some recognition, drawing in customers for their amazing work that comes cheaper than the best, and perhaps even the eyes of jealous GMH agents that want to know why some random worker is stealing their thunder.

I wouldn't call that killing role-play, so much as adjusting future role-play to understand what staff have dictated as the norm in Zalanthas.

Beyond the post about this, we need it documented at least in a sentence, or have the post linked briefly in the existing and exceedingly long custom craft guidelines. It's incredibly jarring to have things roleplayed one way in game, and have it killed off scenes due to a decision that is currently arbitrary, yes arbitrary by definition, due to being poorly documented. Add a note that you can "jump through hoops" and hopefully not hit a glass ceiling on your way to realizing your dreams. Come up with a more polite way of putting that: it is what it is and I can't help but be a bit salty about it. Done with this thread, thanks for starting it again to collect feedback.

[seidhr]

He put it in caps because some players literally leave 'arrange' descriptions around the mud in save rooms with that style of lettering.

It's an example of what not to do.
i.e.
A tregil-carved wooden chest is here, FULL OF ROCKS AND GEMS.

[Lizzie]

While there might be some room for contesting talent vs technology, it's simply not the way staff have decided to go with the game, and that should be respected until a time they deem otherwise.

Besides, I'm sure if a player had a character that went through all the hoops to become a superstar at their craft, even outside the walls of a GMH compound, one could submit these things to staff ahead of a custom craft submission, and have it reviewed for potential. This could then lead into branching directions of this PC getting some recognition, drawing in customers for their amazing work that comes cheaper than the best, and perhaps even the eyes of jealous GMH agents that want to know why some random worker is stealing their thunder.

I wouldn't call that killing role-play, so much as adjusting future role-play to understand what staff have dictated as the norm in Zalanthas.

Beyond the post about this, we need it documented at least in a sentence, or have the post linked briefly in the existing and exceedingly long custom craft guidelines. It's incredibly jarring to have things roleplayed one way in game, and have it killed off scenes due to a decision that is currently arbitrary, yes arbitrary by definition, due to being poorly documented. Add a note that you can "jump through hoops" and hopefully not hit a glass ceiling on your way to realizing your dreams. Come up with a more polite way of putting that: it is what it is and I can't help but be a bit salty about it. Done with this thread, thanks for starting it again to collect feedback.

What would you prefer, to preserve 1) the genre and theme of the game, 2) the integrity of the class structure, clan structure, and social heirarchy of the gameworld's denizens, 3) believability, 4) immersion?

The only thing I could think of would be -

Dear Lizzie,
Your request for a masterfully-crafted super uber awesome as good as (if not better than) anything Salarr will ever make wickedly sharp double-bladed double-sided flippable diamond-etched gem-encrusted platinum broadsword of doom, lightened to only 1 stone with a +6 to slashing skill has been approved.

24 RL hours later:

Dear Lizzie - RIP, boy I bet you never saw it coming when the Salarris found out that some nobody was making stuff better than they were and had you assassinated with your own mastercrafted sword huh?

Personally I'd be okay with that option. But I'm guessing most people don't have the same appreciation of death by assassination vs. death by gith #47792 that I have.

[triste]

While there might be some room for contesting talent vs technology, it's simply not the way staff have decided to go with the game, and that should be respected until a time they deem otherwise.

Besides, I'm sure if a player had a character that went through all the hoops to become a superstar at their craft, even outside the walls of a GMH compound, one could submit these things to staff ahead of a custom craft submission, and have it reviewed for potential. This could then lead into branching directions of this PC getting some recognition, drawing in customers for their amazing work that comes cheaper than the best, and perhaps even the eyes of jealous GMH agents that want to know why some random worker is stealing their thunder.

I wouldn't call that killing role-play, so much as adjusting future role-play to understand what staff have dictated as the norm in Zalanthas.

Beyond the post about this, we need it documented at least in a sentence, or have the post linked briefly in the existing and exceedingly long custom craft guidelines. It's incredibly jarring to have things roleplayed one way in game, and have it killed off scenes due to a decision that is currently arbitrary, yes arbitrary by definition, due to being poorly documented. Add a note that you can "jump through hoops" and hopefully not hit a glass ceiling on your way to realizing your dreams. Come up with a more polite way of putting that: it is what it is and I can't help but be a bit salty about it. Done with this thread, thanks for starting it again to collect feedback.

What would you prefer, to preserve 1) the genre and theme of the game, 2) the integrity of the class structure, clan structure, and social heirarchy of the gameworld's denizens, 3) believability, 4) immersion?

The only thing I could think of would be -

Dear Lizzie,
Your request for a masterfully-crafted super uber awesome as good as (if not better than) anything Salarr will ever make wickedly sharp double-bladed double-sided flippable diamond-etched gem-encrusted platinum broadsword of doom, lightened to only 1 stone with a +6 to slashing skill has been approved.

24 RL hours later:

Dear Lizzie - RIP, boy I bet you never saw it coming when the Salarris found out that some nobody was making stuff better than they were and had you assassinated with your own mastercrafted sword huh?

Personally I'd be okay with that option. But I'm guessing most people don't have the same appreciation of death by assassination vs. death by gith #47792 that I have.

I said I was done. But you directly replied to me, I'll reply, then I am done.

Thank you again for letting us give feedback.

Yes, it is crazy but this is basically what I am saying, "I would die for art," and I am glad you agree that a death of that nature is preferable than gith death number 1000 (Merry Githmas!).

Along the lines of appreciation for the arts, I also take huge issue with gate keeping that might not respect roleplay in game or artistic intent.

The technological limitations point is of course valid, I don't want to see cybernetic goggles in game, but if you have a craft using ingredients accessible to lower class people in game [and even silks can be bought off the street], allow people to mastercraft using these materials if they are at a master skill level.

Mastery can grow from any aspect of society, let's see it play out in game.

[Jihelu]

This idea that people love suggest that making quality goods would get you insta ganked by the Merchant Houses is absurd. Unless you are Tier 3-4 grouping it up and mass producing items and actually stealing business literally 0 people will give a shit about a weapon being good, otherwise the GMH would just be fighting Sun Runners cause they make neat clubs.

May I remind you the Merchant Houses have shit to care about, like the other three trying to steal their trade, as opposed to Amos who makes a decent obsidian sword. Or even Amos's brother, who makes a /really/ good sword.

Also please be reminded there is a breed in the bazaar who literally claims their wares are better than one of the named Merchant Houses.
They don't get insta ganked.
No one cares.
No one cares if you make a deadly and nasty weapon. Deadly and nasty weapons aren't that hard to make with the materials we have available, Salarr can only attach an Ankheg claw to a piece of bone so fancy, where Salarr makes money is production, transportation, and a bunch of other shit.

Then again what do I know? Apparently both city states and the GMH will team up to wipe out an entire tribe if it turns out they put runes on paper.

[Veselka]

I'd personally do away with custom crafts in general. They're a huge pain in the ass and cover roughly 80% of Noble/Templar interaction with GMH Merchants, and are a gigantic time sink away from plotting.

I think GMH should just come up with new lines of stuff with their custom crafts, and Nobles/Templars can stop ordering their personalized vanity plate that no one else can have because 'Lord Templar Stuffypants' ordered it once and they're theirs alone!

Also completely agree with the pronouncement and even the tone of the posts. C'mon guys/gals/everyone...The technology level of Zalanthas really hasn't been well reflected in some of the custom crafts I've seen. It's Zalanthas. That doesn't mean weapons/armor/clothes can't be cool, but they don't need to be some anachronistic representation of a modern item/modern made/factory made item.

And yeah, sorry, if you aren't in the Greater Merchant Houses, your ability to make fantastic items should be incredibly limited in scope. Can it be nicely made? Sure. Top of the line? Nah. Unique/Shabby Chic? Sure. But not The Best.

[rinthrat]

The proclamation made me laugh, I liked the style.

[Lotion]

That's called killing roleplay, not fostering it. You now have to backpedal on all your scenes, deal with people constantly asking "Why can't you create this thing we roleplayed working on creating," and having NO GOOD ROLEPLAY DERIVED ANSWER for them.

Honestly, at that point I would probably just type ooc staff told me no fade to black we pretend that it is possible to explain this in meaningful ic way and then my character does that and our characters agree to never talk about it again and then probably store because at that point I would remember how much I hate playing crafters.

He put it in caps because some players literally leave 'arrange' descriptions around the mud in save rooms with that style of lettering.

It's an example of what not to do.
i.e.
A tregil-carved wooden chest is here, FULL OF ROCKS AND GEMS.

In multiple clan subforums there is a pinned staff post asking players not to do the ALLCAPS but instead to do something like "A baobab chest is here full of hides." which the new proclamation says is unacceptable. I think it is important for written staff policy to avoid contradictions.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I like crafting, and I like master-crafting. I like making both mass-produced items, and one-off items that only exist to sit in a noble's closet somewhere. The rules on item sophistication don't bother me, since I have a relatively good idea of the sorts of limitations on both Zalanthan technology, and the differences between the knowledge base of a clan versus the knowledge base of an individual. Of course, I'm also an advocate of clan-based knowledge and tools typically being superior, so ... grain of salt and all.

I would be livid if custom-crafts were removed.

If you try to make something elite when you are not part of a clan, I'd be alright with it if it were a one-off piece. I think that's acceptable (not positive it is, but it should be). Your non-clanned elite piece should still not be as good as that other clanned person's one-off elite piece, but it could possibly be as good as their mass-produced elite piece.

Standards shift over time, so the fact that a recent policy differs from an old policy shouldn't really illicit that much frustration. All you have to do is rearrange your chests with the new ideas in mind. Pretty simple.

[Veselka]

That's called killing roleplay, not fostering it. You now have to backpedal on all your scenes, deal with people constantly asking "Why can't you create this thing we roleplayed working on creating," and having NO GOOD ROLEPLAY DERIVED ANSWER for them.

Honestly, at that point I would probably just type ooc staff told me no fade to black we pretend that it is possible to explain this in meaningful ic way and then my character does that and our characters agree to never talk about it again and then probably store because at that point I would remember how much I hate playing crafters.

He put it in caps because some players literally leave 'arrange' descriptions around the mud in save rooms with that style of lettering.

It's an example of what not to do.
i.e.
A tregil-carved wooden chest is here, FULL OF ROCKS AND GEMS.

In multiple clan subforums there is a pinned staff post asking players not to do the ALLCAPS but instead to do something like "A baobab chest is here full of hides." which the new proclamation says is unacceptable. I think it is important for written staff policy to avoid contradictions.

There's plenty of contradictions in both documentation and the clan forums. I'd go by what's current, and what current Staff are (mostly politely, sometimes rudely, and sometimes cheekily) asking you to do. There's also plenty of posts on clan subforms telling you to email [insert clan name]@ginka.armageddon.org for character updates and reports, but we obviously use the request tool.

[Veselka]

I like crafting, and I like master-crafting. I like making both mass-produced items, and one-off items that only exist to sit in a noble's closet somewhere. The rules on item sophistication don't bother me, since I have a relatively good idea of the sorts of limitations on both Zalanthan technology, and the differences between the knowledge base of a clan versus the knowledge base of an individual. Of course, I'm also an advocate of clan-based knowledge and tools typically being superior, so ... grain of salt and all.

I would be livid if custom-crafts were removed.

If you try to make something elite when you are not part of a clan, I'd be alright with it if it were a one-off piece. I think that's acceptable (not positive it is, but it should be). Your non-clanned elite piece should still not be as good as that other clanned person's one-off elite piece, but it could possibly be as good as their mass-produced elite piece.

Standards shift over time, so the fact that a recent policy differs from an old policy shouldn't really illicit that much frustration. All you have to do is rearrange your chests with the new ideas in mind. Pretty simple.

I agree with particularly the latter sentences of this.

Part of why I dislike custom crafts so much is it is a mostly OOCly constrained system.
-It's a 30 day timer. No ifs, ands, or buts.
-It's a one at a time deal. You can't work on multiple custom items at once.
-If you aren't the master crafter, but the handler of the master crafter (Merchant/Agent), you can't check on the master crafter's workload/request.
-Custom Crafts (if not craftable) are unique, and tend to be 'better' in my experience. Custom crafts that are craftable (even if only by that House) tend to be lesser than. You can, of course, use another RL month to recreate the unique design, but when you are typically so behind on Custom Crafts, it isn't worth the effort. There is no such thing as a 'slow month'.
-Most Custom Crafts prioritize towards Nobles and Templars. Excuses given for why previous GMH PC's crafts are late, aren't being made, or need to be cancelled often kickstart the career of New GMH Replacement, feeding into a vicious cycle of 'why bother, store'.

--

Most of the points above (1-3) don't make realistic sense. As a crafter myself IRL, I can absolutely work on multiple custom items at the same time. I can put in overtime, so that I complete projects that are behind. The idea of an item being 100% unique and impossible to replicate does not make logical sense. If I am a manager of someone else's projects, I absolutely should be able to ask them point blank where they are at on a project, and they give me an honest (or dishonest) answer, instead of saying 'It's in the hands of the House Crafters! I have no idea!'

However, these constraints are put in as an OOC system to make the game function. If PCs could submit 8 MasterCrafts a month, it would absolutely derail the request tool and create an inordinate amount of work for Staff. The compromise is 1 item a month, no ifs ands or buts. Similarly, you can't speed up the time of the item being baked simply by putting in more effort or overtime. As well, spending a RL Month (or a third of a Zalanthan year) recreating an item you yourself designed and fabricated, is another OOC system of controlling the output. It creates a bad precedent that one player can check on the status of another player's MC request, and it makes perfect logical sense that Staff would say 'Yeah, you can't do that'.

Considering all of this, one has to wonder if the entire Custom Crafting System shouldn't be an OOC construct rather than an IC construct seriously constrained by OOC, very reasonable game systems.

Noble/Templar wants a specific piece of armor made. They file a request directly to House Salarr Staff. They see if the item can be approved, and they handle all of their impatience through the request tool.

House Salarr/Kadius/Kurac GMH can then focus on, I don't know...Designing new weapons/items they came up with themselves? Focusing on plots that don't revolve around 'Soandso Salarr who I know isn't around anymore promised me my fancy dagger 3 years ago and if I don't get it next week I'll kill you' or 'this piece of armor isn't exactly how I imagined it even though I only vaguely described it that one time when I was drunk'. They can plot, play their PC, and perhaps secondarily be involved in Custom Crafts If They Want To Buy Into That. But not as the primary focus of their PC's functionality in the game world.

Honestly, I don't blame GMH for storing at the rates they do, because the Custom Craft system as it stands takes up a LARGE part of their time played. Talk about being a glorified vending machine, the root of the problem isn't simply outputting normal crafts your House already makes, it's handling Nobles/Templars whining about what are ostensibly OOC issues, and turning it into an IC issue for your PC.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Considering all of this, one has to wonder if the entire Custom Crafting System shouldn't be an OOC construct rather than an IC construct seriously constrained by OOC, very reasonable game systems.

Noble/Templar wants a specific piece of armor made. They file a request directly to House Salarr Staff. They see if the item can be approved, and they handle all of their impatience through the request tool.

House Salarr/Kadius/Kurac GMH can then focus on, I don't know...Designing new weapons/items they came up with themselves? Focusing on plots that don't revolve around 'Soandso Salarr who I know isn't around anymore promised me my fancy dagger 3 years ago and if I don't get it next week I'll kill you' or 'this piece of armor isn't exactly how I imagined it even though I only vaguely described it that one time when I was drunk'. They can plot, play their PC, and perhaps secondarily be involved in Custom Crafts If They Want To Buy Into That. But not as the primary focus of their PC's functionality in the game world.

Honestly, I don't blame GMH for storing at the rates they do, because the Custom Craft system as it stands takes up a LARGE part of their time played. Talk about being a glorified vending machine, the root of the problem isn't simply outputting normal crafts your House already makes, it's handling Nobles/Templars whining about what are ostensibly OOC issues, and turning it into an IC issue for your PC.

So, I don't have a problem with one-off pieces going through staff, and yet at the same time, as a GMH player I really liked making them. What I would like is for that one-off piece to be separate from the 30 day timer for my own custom-crafts. That way I can continue to enjoy what I do, and still have the hand I should be having in that custom piece. Raise the cost for a custom piece or something if you like, but I certainly prefer for GMH PCs to be involved in that arena. But at the cost of their own goals? Nah. Separate them.

Now, as a Salarri Merchant (some called him the Battle Merchant), I had a ton of fun, and there's a great chance that I'd still be playing the character I was playing if I hadn't had a computer crash that killed all of his IC knowledge I had stored OOCly. I played my merchant for 2 1/2 RL years, and it worked grandly, even after the Hunter Divisions had been dissolved. I enjoyed selling stuff, digging in the archives of Salarri merchandise, filling out armor lines, etc. I never once felt like a vending machine, even though, of course, I was.  Certain people enjoy this organizational aspect of the game (Yep, there's folks who love organizing the storeroom), and enjoy being vending machines, and so, of course, I think it's a great role for those sorts of players.

[SpyGuy]

Not exactly addressing anything in the original post but I wouldn't mind seeing GMH leadership given one custom craft slot in addition to any they might get from their class/subclass for their House's specialties to reflect the House's virtual master crafters.  It'd help with Merchants+ getting overwhelmed with custom orders when their custom crafter PCs die/store while presumably not overwhelming staff resources.

[Lizzie]

I think the term "master crafter" and "master craft" is creating confusion with some of the playerbase.

There's the OOC construct master crafter, and the clan title Master Crafter.

A master crafter is a character who has achieved the highest coded ability to craft a category of things that the character can achieve, and that level of achievement falls into the top "10 points" of possibility. From 1-100, that character has at least 91, and as much as 100. This doesn't mean they are creative geniuses. It just means they have codedly bumped their skills as high as they can go.

A half-giant with master crafting is not an idiot savant. Rather, he has become really good at making weird shit. I mean no one makes weird shit better than he does. Does that mean he gets to master craft a van Gogh, or a Matisse? No. It means he can probably sculpt a Tony Smith-like set of perfectly square blocks in the middle of the commoner's plaza. The technique would be perfect. But the meaning and depth would be non-existent.

A crafter in a GMH would have access to the artistic creative instruction that someone outside a GMH would not have. The "masters" the non-GMH artists train under would still not be "Masters." (notice the capitalization difference). They'd be learning from people whose coded skillset has achieved mastery. They still wouldn't be actual Masters.

A master in a non-GMH clan or an independent would know how to draw a straight line. But a Master of a GMH would know how to apply just the right pressure, use exactly the right density of ink, turn the pen at just the right angle, to make that line draw immediate attention to the viewer. They'd wonder "is that really a straight line?" They'd consider perhaps the person who drew it intended to demonstrate the futility and imperfection of "perfect." Or maybe it indicates the corruption of life when it attempts to move linearly rather than fluidly.  The person who just draws the straight line perfectly - did nothing other than draw a straight line perfectly. They are masters of line-drawing. But they are not Master Painters.

[betweenford]

Not exactly addressing anything in the original post but I wouldn't mind seeing GMH leadership given one custom craft slot in addition to any they might get from their class/subclass for their House's specialties to reflect the House's virtual master crafters.  It'd help with Merchants+ getting overwhelmed with custom orders when their custom crafter PCs die/store while presumably not overwhelming staff resources.

+1

IMO, there are alot items made by the GMH's in general that don't employ any special techniques, or special tools that any independent craft with enough know-how or fine versions of common tools could easily recreate. Some items made by independents and non-gmh even go above and beyond some of the more average level gmh stuff... But some items do end up being a bit excessive with just HOW 'perfect' they are constructed. Personally, having played a cc'er for a good long while, I never really found it difficult to describe how a really well made cc was constructed over just describing that the item is 'perfect'; usually any I see that has the eword "perfect" even being used is to desceibe something atrocious, magickal, or gmh-made(which imo is kinda lazy writing!) Even using "basic" techniques you can make something look exotic and beautiful and descriptive through effort or time. Especially if that item you're making took like a "year" to polish, chisel, carve, tool, scorch, turn, fire, slip, bleach, and glaze.

[Brokkr]

Just for reference, from the help files:

Crafts that would require special tools or knowledge may be prohibited if your character is not deemed to have that knowledge, or access to those special tools or workspace.

and

Craftable custom crafts are considered generic enough to be reproducible. They meet all of the following criteria.
They fit within the theme of low technology and scarce resources.
They are everyday items for commoners, and not described as being remarkable in any way.
For independent crafts, there are no bonuses outside the standard for that item type.
They can be produced without a reference to copy from.
Uncraftable custom crafts are considered special enough to be unique, or copied through additional custom craft requests. They fit under one or more of the following criteria.
They are plot specific.
They are outside the norm in regards to technical ability, resources, quality, and regional norms for your PC and your PC's clan.
For independent crafts, they have any kind of unique bonus.
They can't feasibly be reproduced by someone without itself as a reference.
Great Merchant House crafters and player clan crafters specializing in the craft type can make certain items craftable that would be considered uncraftable by an independent crafter, due to access to knowledge and special tools as well as a work-space. However, items that can't feasibly be reproduced by someone without itself as a reference will still fall under being made through custom crafting requests.

Well, that didn't copy over well.  All from "help custom crafting"

Just saying this isn't really a change in what we expect.  It is trying to change player behavior to what is in the helpfile already (this helpfile last changed September 2019)

[Veselka]

I think the term "master crafter" and "master craft" is creating confusion with some of the playerbase.

There's the OOC construct master crafter, and the clan title Master Crafter.

A master crafter is a character who has achieved the highest coded ability to craft a category of things that the character can achieve, and that level of achievement falls into the top "10 points" of possibility. From 1-100, that character has at least 91, and as much as 100. This doesn't mean they are creative geniuses. It just means they have codedly bumped their skills as high as they can go.

A half-giant with master crafting is not an idiot savant. Rather, he has become really good at making weird shit. I mean no one makes weird shit better than he does. Does that mean he gets to master craft a van Gogh, or a Matisse? No. It means he can probably sculpt a Tony Smith-like set of perfectly square blocks in the middle of the commoner's plaza. The technique would be perfect. But the meaning and depth would be non-existent.

A crafter in a GMH would have access to the artistic creative instruction that someone outside a GMH would not have. The "masters" the non-GMH artists train under would still not be "Masters." (notice the capitalization difference). They'd be learning from people whose coded skillset has achieved mastery. They still wouldn't be actual Masters.

A master in a non-GMH clan or an independent would know how to draw a straight line. But a Master of a GMH would know how to apply just the right pressure, use exactly the right density of ink, turn the pen at just the right angle, to make that line draw immediate attention to the viewer. They'd wonder "is that really a straight line?" They'd consider perhaps the person who drew it intended to demonstrate the futility and imperfection of "perfect." Or maybe it indicates the corruption of life when it attempts to move linearly rather than fluidly.  The person who just draws the straight line perfectly - did nothing other than draw a straight line perfectly. They are masters of line-drawing. But they are not Master Painters.

Eh. Just because you are a member of House Salarr, have access to all the right tools, and all the right materials, does not make your 'master weapon smith' necessarily better than a non-Salarri 'master weapon smith'. The distinction is the name brand, the clout, and the emblem you put on almost everything you make. There is no materia upgrade you slot into your PC to suddenly level up and be better than the competition when you join the House or even work for it for a few years, a lot of that has to do with the IC (and OOC) mechanics of a Greater Merchant House. They are better because we say so!

Leaving modern sculpture comparisons out (Tony Smith, Half Giant, really?), I see what you are saying...But we aren't really talking about the incredibly subjective qualitative assessment of Art (and modern / contemporary art at that). Do I like David Smith's Cubi series? Not really, but I know he wasn't a dunce / semi-retarded just because I don't like it, or that his work is completely void of meaning just because I don't want to understand it, or care to. Is Yves Klein's work sort of banal and his patent for his own color of blue a bit ostentatious? I mean, sure, but that doesn't make him really, really, really stupid. Saying modern / contemporary sculpture has no meaning...I mean. No art has inherent meaning? Just because you like Van Gogh or assign more inherent meaning to his work compared to Henry Moore doesn't make one universally better than the other...(/rant)

The difference here is recognition, and eye of the beholder. When presented with two identical blades, one made by a non-Salarri, and one made by a Salarri craftsperson, 9/10 (or even 10/10), a viewer will say 'The Salarri blade is better'. That has little to do with the actual function of the blade, it is a culturally accepted belief that Salarr makes the Best Stuff, regardless of the inherent quality of the material object. Maybe the independent's blade is sharper or 'Does More Damage', but still, the Salarri blade is better. We as players have accepted that Salarr's quality will be better than anything an independent can make, and part of Staff's job is to reinforce that belief through the actual coded quality applied to Salarri weapons.

When I had a Salarri master weapon crafter, I was a bit disappointed that a new custom craft weapon I designed to mimic a popular elven design at the time was WAY worse than it. The whole point was to copy what was non-Salarri and make it Salarri and objectively 'better', it even said so explicitly in the request. By this reasoning, it should have been better, right? But it wasn't. It was half as good, if that. No one wanted the Salarri version, everyone wanted the Elven version.

The inconsistency here is can be a bit frustrating -- If GMH goods are supposed to be superior, they should be superior. If Independent's Custom Crafts are meant to be inferior in comparison, they should be inferior in comparison. It can be a bit immersion breaking and confusing when that isn't the case, particularly in the case of custom crafts.

[Narf]

Deleted

[CoreyTX]

While there might be some room for contesting talent vs technology, it's simply not the way staff have decided to go with the game, and that should be respected until a time they deem otherwise.

Besides, I'm sure if a player had a character that went through all the hoops to become a superstar at their craft, even outside the walls of a GMH compound, one could submit these things to staff ahead of a custom craft submission, and have it reviewed for potential. This could then lead into branching directions of this PC getting some recognition, drawing in customers for their amazing work that comes cheaper than the best, and perhaps even the eyes of jealous GMH agents that want to know why some random worker is stealing their thunder.

I wouldn't call that killing role-play, so much as adjusting future role-play to understand what staff have dictated as the norm in Zalanthas.

Beyond the post about this, we need it documented at least in a sentence, or have the post linked briefly in the existing and exceedingly long custom craft guidelines. It's incredibly jarring to have things roleplayed one way in game, and have it killed off scenes due to a decision that is currently arbitrary, yes arbitrary by definition, due to being poorly documented. Add a note that you can "jump through hoops" and hopefully not hit a glass ceiling on your way to realizing your dreams. Come up with a more polite way of putting that: it is what it is and I can't help but be a bit salty about it. Done with this thread, thanks for starting it again to collect feedback.

To add on to this...

In my logical opinion the factors that determine what difficulty and level of quality a crafter can make a custom craft should be based on the following weighted/priotized variables and criteria.

1)   Wisdom Score: (characters inherent potential and also the stat that aligns best to include intelligence). 
2)   Skill level: Current mastery of the particular crafting skill (hours spent practicing, failing and learning from mistakes).
3)   Tools (if it makes sense): For example, outside of a good pair of scissors and a needle, I am not sure what "special tools" you would need to make a custom brilliant looking set of gloves.
4)   Mentorship/Formal Training: This would definitely help/speed up the process, but there are many examples of self-taught famous and accomplished crafters/artists. 

Below are some examples.

Artists: https://www.artsy.net/article/artsy-editorial-8-famous-artists-s elf-taught
Musicians: https://www.joytunes.com/blog/music-fun/15-famous-musicians-totally-self-taught
Seamstress:  https://mymodernmet.com/angela-clayton-historical-dress es/


I think it would make more sense to limit the quality a crafter can make based on their personal potential (wisdom score) + their current mastery of said specific crafting skill.  You could then put some documented rules and examples around this.
For example:
To submit a unique custom craft of "flawless quality" and description, you would need to have an AI wisdom score + mastery of the skill.
To submit a unique custom craft for exceptional level quality, Exceptional wisdom score + mastery of the skill,
Etc.


As proposed or announced, a character with a below average Wis score, who is in House Kadius with Master Jewelcrafting can make a flawless piece of jewelry while an independent crafter with AI wisdom and Mastery of jewelcrafting crafter can not? 

This would also directly help ensure Wisdom is not always a "dump stat" and provide additional incentive to be desired/prioritized.   

[Brokkr]

Part of the whole economy thing is to bring items in line with expectations about what you are getting when you purchase from Salarr vs an elf.

Most self-taught comparisons are not really going to fit because when folks say "self-taught" in RL, they are assuming all that stuff they read about technique, etc., which represents the failures and accomplishments of folks in the past, gained in books or the internet, don't count as "taught".  In Zalanthas, there is no reading for the average person, so there are no such common resources.  So there is, in fact, a world of difference between having access to a repository of knowledge and not having access.  It isn't about branding.  It is about the Salarr weapon being better, because they have generations of knowledge and trial and error and resources devoted to that one thing.  Your tribal might have generational knowledge, but your tribe will not have been expending the same level of resources to learn how to do things really, really well, because in most tribe cases that would interfere with trying to survive.

As a lone independent with maybe some family knowledge at best, trying to compete against that?  General knowledge will get you to common items.  But where would you get the knowledge to go beyond that?

The oppression that comes with not letting folks read is real.