The Allanak Problem

[Krombat]

I believe any automated crim-code should just be outright removed, let the PC soldiers/templars sort it out. As a soldier in the past I found the crim code to be super annoying and debilitating to interactions with unruly PCs. Also, threaten loses a lot of it's power as a skill when you toss crim-code into the mix.

Example: Not being able to knock someone around a little bit to get your point across without having the 17 guards one tile away come join in on the beating. So, what would have just been a smack or two to the headpan, becomes death or some time to rot in a cell until someone logs on to release them.

[Cabooze]

1:  We only ever enforce 'the virtual world' in a way that promotes order.  We never promote the disorder in the virtual world.  This also promotes monotony and falling-into-line, instead of randomness and the opportunity to be swept up in things that are entirely unpredictable as far as conflict, action, and explosion.  If you're going to use the same old argument that actually really doesn't hold water in any arena other than 'people feel cheated and complain about this', then at least address this.  This is boring.

This is a good point I wanted to second. Allanak is a large city which PCs should be able to easily blend into. I'm all for using the virtual world in small areas to enforce some order, but the virtual world in large cities (particularly ones not enmeshed in an information age) should actually produce more chaos. I've come to accept that PCs that see other PCs can recognize them later even with the faintest (or no) interaction. What I don't think is necessary is that VNPCs have this ability.

If someone pickpockets for the first time in the bazaar (i.e., they're not a regular face there) and escapes the area, it's not particularly realistic that NPC soldiers would be hunting them down in the commons across the city. What might be more fun is if PCs with their special "I recognize faces of important people" ability were the only ones that actually hunted criminals across large swaths of the city. You could probably code it so that people could be wanted for crimes in smaller areas, giving each subsection of the city their own wanted flags for instance. If you did this, NPCs would be far less likely to step on PC guard toes and do their job for them.

I entirely agree that it's not realistic that NPC soldiers are of the hivemind and always know who the wanted thief is.

For minor crime, such as theft, it should only alert soldiers that are within a 3-5 room distance from your current location. If you manage to outrun that or those specific NPC soldier(s), you should be in the clear to wander about the rest of the city without having every other soldier chase you down. If the alerted NPC(s) happen to be ones that patrol and comes across you sitting at the bar, it would make sense for it to re-aggro and try and arrest you until you manage to escape (or not escape) again.

For assaults/murders, the crimcode should be region-specific. IE: In Nak, you try and murder gemmers in the gemmed quarter. Until a PC soldier or templar comes around to receive reports from (v)NPCs, you should only ever be crimcoded inside the gemmed quarter. Try and murder someone in the Gaj or Red's Retreat? You'll be wanted in most of the common quarter. Murder in the markets? Wanted in the markets and surrounding streets.

Violent and petty crime should be such common place in a location like Allanak, that to have every soldier have magic-wisdom of who is a criminal is unrealistic and deters shadier characters from being able to do what they do.

[Patuk]

I welcome the idea of a crimcode free city, you know, but I guarantee you that it won't make Allanak look busier. If anything, it'll be the opposite.

[Void]

I've played a long-lived highly violent and criminal PC before. Never once had a problem with the crim-code in the various murders I did in broad daylight in the middle of a crowded area. Never even got hauled to jail. Sometimes I'd be fighting a few guards as well, but it wasn't really a problem for the PC and easily avoidable if you do it right.

That being said, this is a specific form of criminality against the Templarate. Not just some weak pickpocket who is going to die insta if guards fail to subdue. Regardless, I think the crim-code is very easy to get around for basically anyone. Certain tactics/strategies work, some don't.

[Jihelu]

I welcome the idea of a crimcode free city, you know, but I guarantee you that it won't make Allanak look busier. If anything, it'll be the opposite.

This is a jest

Allanak already is empty.

"I've played a long-lived highly violent and criminal PC before. Never once had a problem with the crim-code in the various murders I did in broad daylight in the middle of a crowded area. Never even got hauled to jail. Sometimes I'd be fighting a few guards as well, but it wasn't really a problem for the PC and easily avoidable if you do it right.

That being said, this is a specific form of criminality against the Templarate. Not just some weak pickpocket who is going to die insta if guards fail to subdue. Regardless, I think the crim-code is very easy to get around for basically anyone. Certain tactics/strategies work, some don't."

The issue with crime code isn't whether it's easy or hard to avoid, I avoid it literally on the time (On 'brawler' types and 'sneaky climb-y' types). It's that it doesn't let me do my Romeo and Juliet battles in the street or rough someone up without having to flee and hide from the entire city for X hours. In the most brutal city in the known I can't slap someone around on the side street to get a point across without the person I just hit laughing as I haul ass away from soldiers.

[Patuk]

I welcome the idea of a crimcode free city, you know, but I guarantee you that it won't make Allanak look busier. If anything, it'll be the opposite.

This is a jest

Allanak already is empty.

Much as I enjoy hyperbole, these are rookie numbers.

[The Gruffalo]

Eh, you can use emotes when you don't want to risk the soldier spam-stomp, but one issue with that is that a lot of players suddenly turn into Clint Eastwood and DGAF, even when there's little doubt that if you used the code you'd paste them. Without help. And one hand tied behind your back. You want more entertaining, less code-focused RP, you gotta be willing to play along with it and take your lumps. If you're being given a beating is because we're trying NOT to escalate.

And then of course there's the "you punched me in the face so I'm going to try to backstab you tomorrow" scenario...

Street goes both ways. I do think Templars and militia have more responsibility to use the code judiciously, however. They have the coded backup and power, a lot of options on the table when it comes to dealing with (or ignoring!) crime. The caveat is that criminals have to be willing to play into that corruption and recognize the chances they were handed.

[Jihelu]

Eh, you can use emotes when you don't want to risk the soldier spam-stomp, but one issue with that is that a lot of players suddenly turn into Clint Eastwood and DGAF, even when there's little doubt that if you used the code you'd paste them. Without help. And one hand tied behind your back. You want more entertaining, less code-focused RP, you gotta be willing to play along with it and take your lumps. If you're being given a beating is because we're trying NOT to escalate.

And then of course there's the "you punched me in the face so I'm going to try to backstab you tomorrow" scenario...

Street goes both ways. I do think Templars and militia have more responsibility to use the code judiciously, however. They have the coded backup and power, a lot of options on the table when it comes to dealing with (or ignoring!) crime. The caveat is that criminals have to be willing to play into that corruption and recognize the chances they were handed.

I can't emote at someone to make them stay in the room.
If I want to hold someone so I can punch them via subdue, I have to use subdue.
If I emote 'Grabs u u can't get away' I'm not power emoting.
If I emote 'punches ur face' there is nothing preventing the other person from, as its their right as well, just dodging.
I have stats and mechanical advantage for a reason. Otherwise we end up with situations like when an albino 15 year old was emoting doing backflips in the gaj till staff told her to stop.
I'm playing a game that requires like days of real life effort to make the numbers get higher, I'd like to use those.

[Armaddict]

As a note, the crimcode discussion came about and I don't think it was the end-all solution to 'the Allanak Problem'.  I did a post awhile back that is far more along the line of what I think the issue is there, but I'm not going to repeat it because it's the same thing I've criticized for years.

The crimcode discussion is, however, an interesting one insofar as creating a venue of actual interaction and consequence.  Not a fear-factor that essentially works as a nearly flawless preventative action towards risk-taking.  Not a scheme that rewards you for -always- being the invisible shadow.  Something that makes crime and law facets where you are more able to create actual experiences for other players should you so wish, which a lot of people do.

Yes, the crimcode is easy to avoid.  But you avoid it in ways that do not promote the criminal/lawman interaction.  Yes, you can patrol right now.  But chances are the activity will be a useless gesture aside from showing that you do it.  This is a lot less about 'crimcode is broken' and a lot more about 'crimcode is stifling', in particular to a facet of Allanak that is ripe with potential for new experiences and excitement and intrigue and all those things both action-oriented and social-oriented players want.

The only downside, and it is a big one for some people, is having to accept that more of that interaction comes through being less safe.

[Jihelu]

Crime Code is an oppressive OOC blanket. The Blanket is easy to side step and walk around, and it's not even that thick of a blanket, but it gets in the way of me trying to MCB people and have fun.

[Patuk]

No, really. People hate criminals. They despise them. They hate them more than the magickers and mindworms around you. I'm all for the crimcode being less strict, but it will make cities have fewer people in the open, not more.

[Armaddict]

No, really. People hate criminals. They despise them. They hate them more than the magickers and mindworms around you. I'm all for the crimcode being less strict, but it will make cities have fewer people in the open, not more.

People hate monotony and boredom more than any of it.  It's what doesn't just drive people to new areas.  It leads to an apathy about the game altogether.

Besides.  Historically untrue.  You literally had mindbender magicker criminals running rampant killing people in their apartments for a year solid and it was absolutely hopping in that city all the time.  You had dominating presences of Guild and Eastsiders at various points in history, and the city was hopping.  You had entire eras of people charging into taverns and outright killing people...and that city was hopping.  The only thing that's changed from those times is that we became softer, and I don't mean that in a derogatory way.  We tried to limit bad interactions, and in the process made all of them extremely limited.  And by being softer, I don't mean we're a bunch of pillsbury doughboys, I mean that we started trying to accommodate and create safer, more ordered environments.

What you're talking about is people hate being stolen from with no interaction, or hate working hard to get a bunch of materials to find a broken-into house.  While those are only going to drive people out of the city if there is a magical wonderland of safety that we provide them, this is also a discussion more based around combatting exactly the 'not fun' parts of the law/crime back and forth.  But insofar as you have one harsh place, then places that are less harsh in that aspect without increasing the brutality in some other aspect, yes, you will find migrations to those easier places more common.

[Veselka]

I'd prefer most NPC soldiers being bribable. You randomly roll a higher, greedy soldier who wants 300 coins instead of 100 coins. But really, there should be no Serpico's in either Tuluk or Allanak.

[Patuk]

Like it or not, we live in an age where characters aren't considered 'real' until you have spent three months of your life playing them. Be they generic fighters or god damn sponsored nobles, you are much less able to find engagement in the current state of the game than you were at that point, and so people are going to play a lot more cautiously to reflect that.

[Void]

The issue with crime code isn't whether it's easy or hard to avoid, I avoid it literally on the time (On 'brawler' types and 'sneaky climb-y' types). It's that it doesn't let me do my Romeo and Juliet battles in the street or rough someone up without having to flee and hide from the entire city for X hours. In the most brutal city in the known I can't slap someone around on the side street to get a point across without the person I just hit laughing as I haul ass away from soldiers.

Can't say I've had this problem. It all depends how you go about things.

[Jihelu]

The issue with crime code isn't whether it's easy or hard to avoid, I avoid it literally on the time (On 'brawler' types and 'sneaky climb-y' types). It's that it doesn't let me do my Romeo and Juliet battles in the street or rough someone up without having to flee and hide from the entire city for X hours. In the most brutal city in the known I can't slap someone around on the side street to get a point across without the person I just hit laughing as I haul ass away from soldiers.

Can't say I've had this problem. It all depends how you go about things.

Explain to me how you've managed to engage in HP damage dealing combat in the streets in broad daylight, I'm curious.

Yes, it depends on how you go about things.

That's the problem. I'm outright restricted from doing it the 'brutal Allanaki way'.
A noble can't order his guard to attack a commoner for insulting him without it getting arrested, I've seen it happen and it's hilarious but it shouldn't be happening. Em slap is lame and results in the quasi em 'I'm actually super quick and fast I dodge u and run away' fight.

An elf can't rough someone up on the side of the road without knowing he's chilling on the rooftops for the next day or so unless it just so happens to be nighttime.

I already have issue enough finding people in this game having to wait for it to be dark so I can be a cool alley cat is already more limiting and I'd guess to say it's why 90% of criminal stuff is breaking into your apartment and stealing your furniture.

[Dar]

Hrm. I wonder if no save crime would allow someone to strike you without attracting soldiers?


There has to be a balance unfortunately.

A balance between being brutal in an interesting way and ability to go afk for a lil bit while sitting in Gaj. Or being able to play while at work, not really paying intense attention like when you do in a lawless area.

You say you find it difficult finding other people. Now Imagine people choosing not to login at all, because their attention is too divided to allow their squishy merchant to sit in a tavern with 30% of actual attention.

[Jihelu]

" Now Imagine people choosing not to login at all, because their attention is too divided to allow their squishy merchant to sit in a tavern with 30% of actual attention."

90% of the game world, AKA: Outside the city walls, is already like this. You don't AFK outside.
Though I don't consider this the same thing. People already get murdered in taverns, we even got blowguns now. And I'm not saying soldiers should stop crime. I'm complaining about crimecode.

[Armaddict]

Yeeeeah, that's kinda...a bad point to make.  I'm not for lawlessness and just constant fighting in Allanak.  I think that gets out of hand quickly.

But I will never, ever, not once, be a proponent for 'places you should feel safe'.  If you want safety, hire mercenaries.  If you want safety, get a noble to hire guards for you.  If you want safety, hang around the templar crowd.  If you want safety, build a fearsome reputation.

But if you want safety, don't depend on crimcode for it.  Don't depend on NPC's for it.  Everyone has railed against the clanned-npc gangbang for decades, but we see no problem with it when it's promoting order.

Order should be present.  But it should actually be in conflict with something, not suppressing any and all antagonism that could possibly occur within city limits unless by a puppeteer.

[Lotion]

im gonna fucking twink up an elf and murder everyone in broad daylight and crimcode wont top me

[Dar]

Yeeeeah, that's kinda...a bad point to make.  I'm not for lawlessness and just constant fighting in Allanak.  I think that gets out of hand quickly.

But I will never, ever, not once, be a proponent for 'places you should feel safe'.  If you want safety, hire mercenaries.  If you want safety, get a noble to hire guards for you.  If you want safety, hang around the templar crowd.  If you want safety, build a fearsome reputation.

But if you want safety, don't depend on crimcode for it.  Don't depend on NPC's for it.  Everyone has railed against the clanned-npc gangbang for decades, but we see no problem with it when it's promoting order.

Order should be present.  But it should actually be in conflict with something, not suppressing any and all antagonism that could possibly occur within city limits unless by a puppeteer.

If you want safety, log off.

[Armaddict]

Yeeeeah, that's kinda...a bad point to make.  I'm not for lawlessness and just constant fighting in Allanak.  I think that gets out of hand quickly.

But I will never, ever, not once, be a proponent for 'places you should feel safe'.  If you want safety, hire mercenaries.  If you want safety, get a noble to hire guards for you.  If you want safety, hang around the templar crowd.  If you want safety, build a fearsome reputation.

But if you want safety, don't depend on crimcode for it.  Don't depend on NPC's for it.  Everyone has railed against the clanned-npc gangbang for decades, but we see no problem with it when it's promoting order.

Order should be present.  But it should actually be in conflict with something, not suppressing any and all antagonism that could possibly occur within city limits unless by a puppeteer.

If you want safety, log off.

That's what I'm saying.

ETA:  Oh, I see.  That's all tongue-in-cheek for 'less people playing'.  Having 'safe spaces' where people feel like they shouldn't have to pay attention to the roleplaying game ain't exactly doing wonders now, is it?

[Dar]

Roleplaying and being rapt at attention are two different things. I can't convince you if you think it's the same thing. In the end it's whatever ends up being better for the game.

I don't really play very often, due to irl schedule. But I can say that if I can't feel at least 95% safe during my play while at work, my playtimes will reduce to 2 hours a week.

[williamson]

I don't particularly like the idea of converting the southside of Allanak into a potential combat zone with minimal consequences. If you want that style of play, you can reside in the northside or out in the wastes. I'd be concerned that to change the status quo would lead to many dead merchants, nobles, and aides.

[Armaddict]

Think you guys are kind of exaggerating.  Loosening grips does not equal lawlessness.  Modifying so that npc's don't appear out of thin air as a representation of a virtual world that only promotes order does not equal lawlessness.  Making 'being a baddy' less than a death wish in the areas where there's people to be bad to is not lawlessness.

When I say no safe spaces, I don't mean people just walk in and slaughter wholesale.  I don't mean there is no presence whatsoever.

I mean that danger is always present.  Not in terms of paranoid 'look n;look e;look w;look s' that is prevalent in the desert.  But in terms of 'If I want to idle, I should probably not idle in this open room where anyone can come and go.'  In terms of gameplay, you'd rather that idle person be there.  In terms of gameplay, I'd rather that person hire people to make it safer to idle there, or to accept that while 95% of idle time there is uneventful, there isn't really any sort of feeling of security in that events -shouldn't- happen there.

I won't speak for other people suggesting no crimcode or whatnot, because I've already spoken against that as well.  But I also speak against this idea that the virtual world should only reinforce safety, instead of challenge it, or in a better case scenario, -stop- automating the virtual world so that players can actually interact with the things that are interactable.  If the virtual world needs reinforcement, then it needs to be reinforced robustly with far more variety and grey area than it currently is.  And I also speak against the idea that danger is bad for the game because people have to be free to pay little heed to a dangerous world.

And yes, from a jaded vet perspective, 25 people active, plotting, interacting, socializing, killing, hunting, and shopping is a far healthier playerbase status than 40 people online with 15 active, plotting, interacting, socializing, killing, hunting, and shopping and 10 waiting for something to do and 15 idle taking answering machine messages.  That isn't to shit on people.  Or to say don't log in.  But it is to say that danger being present and possible tends to ward off inactivity and stagnation and the 'wait for something to do' phase; you have plenty to watch and prepare for, even if the chance of it is small.