new dynamic contacting via the way

[Fredd]

Okay, this addition is VERY problematic.
Not only does it reveal disguises, but it reveals skills. If you contact someone who is hidden, it shows up as 'someone.' So now all you have to do to check if someone is hiding is find there mind on the way.

The worst thing, the sdesc doesn't even stay, it's literally only the connection message. What was the point of this change?

[triste]

Okay, this addition is VERY problematic.
Not only does it reveal disguises, but it reveals skills. If you contact someone who is hidden, it shows up as 'someone.' So now all you have to do to check if someone is hiding is find there mind on the way.

The worst thing, the sdesc doesn't even stay, it's literally only the connection message. What was the point of this change?

+1 and really +2 or more since Nao mentioned this earlier.

I think the change was an attempt to address way sniffing, but IMO there were better ways it could have been addressed and I am also concerned about this. It essentially gives extra psionic, character revealing powers exactly per what you describe.

[mansa]

...What was the point of this change?

I believe the point was to prevent characters from phishing what the sdesc is of hooded characters, and then slipping out of their mind without the target knowing who was in their mind in the first place.

[Nao]

Okay, this addition is VERY problematic.
Not only does it reveal disguises, but it reveals skills. If you contact someone who is hidden, it shows up as 'someone.' So now all you have to do to check if someone is hiding is find there mind on the way.

The worst thing, the sdesc doesn't even stay, it's literally only the connection message. What was the point of this change?

It reveals the use of magickal skills, too. I put in a bug report because it didn't seem right, but was told it's working as intended.

[Lucky Bite]

I have had someone contact cease me from 2 rooms away in the wilderness because they knew that I ride a specific mount and like to wear a certain cloak with hood up and they wanted to know if it was me.

[Fredd]

...What was the point of this change?

I believe the point was to prevent characters from phishing what the sdesc is of hooded characters, and then slipping out of their mind without the target knowing who was in their mind in the first place.

It seems to have done the opposite. As you can now fish for a lot more info with just a contact.

[mansa]

In my opinion, (and this is how I justify the changes), I view psionics and contact as trying to hit a target in the nebulous form of "the way", which I imagine as a grey mist.


When you contact someone, you're trying to narrow your focus to make sure you have the right mind in the grey mist of the way.  Using more keywords / names should allow you to focus and pick them out more readily.

When you contact someone, you get an imagine of them in your mind (and this is where we can modify some stuff, because I'm not 100% satisfied with the current code), but you're not fully sure who they are until you make the effort to push your thoughts into their mind.  This is action is done by using the PSI <message> command.

On the flip side, when someone contacts you, there's a tickle in your mind that something that connected to you through "the way", but you're not sure what sort of creature it is.  The ability to immediately detect and determine the sdesc of whatever creature has touched your mind is something that should be a psionicist skill, as they are experts in using "the way".



On getting the target's initial image in your mind, currently the game uses your current viewable short description.  Now, there are certain abilities that modify your short description evenmore, and I think they should all return a 'someone', be that hide, invisibility, polymorph, or whatever else that might exist.

[HeeBeeGB]

I agree that it should just return 'You contact someone with the Way'. Removes the chance of equating 'someone' with 'ability to hide', removes the ability to see disguises/what cloak or mask someone is wearing/see if that person is hiding in the room with you/ etc. Equal playing field.

Someone.

[Fredd]

I agree that it should just return 'You contact someone with the Way'. Removes the chance of equating 'someone' with 'ability to hide', removes the ability to see disguises/what cloak or mask someone is wearing/see if that person is hiding in the room with you/ etc. Equal playing field.

Someone.

At the very least, let the person toggle something to show disuises over the way. This way if someone WANTS to show their rinthi cloak, they can.

[AdamBlue]

Don't like the change. Feels bad.

[HeeBeeGB]

The part that I dislike about the change is that it introduces a new set of problems that outweigh the original issue.

An Anecdotal Example:
-A PC cannot now impersonate a member of another PC's organization in order to bait them to travel to a location. Think, an assassination where one PC contacts a Noble, saying 'This is your cousin Lord Fancypants Fale, are you free to meet in the Estate?'. Before the change, a Noble who was gullible and unassuming might take this bait, only to travel towards the Estate and be waylaid by assassins. Now, that Noble can simply contact the person by desc, find they are wearing a rather common looking cloak, and see through the ruse immediately.

-A criminal elf PC likes to travel around in a Militia Cloak when they are in the Labyrinth, but doesn't wear it south of there. Someone contacts them, and sees they are wearing a Militia Cloak, and reports them to the authorities.

-Someone was seen at the scene of a crime wearing a semi-rare cloak. Upon contacting someone unrelated to the crime, it is noticed that another person is wearing that same cloak. Connections are made that would otherwise not be made, and that person is reported to the authorities as 'probably responsible' due to wearing the cloak reported.

These examples point out that it is improper use of the Unseen Way for a non-Psionicist character, and create scenarios that are unrealistic at best, and semi-power gamey at worst. If anything, it has enhanced SDesc Fishing through psionic contact, rather than lessening it.

I would propose that the general message is changed upon contacting someone over the Way. The following is more vague as to whether or not you contacted the correct person, which would require sending a message to confirm.

As an example:

>contact soandso

You attempt to make contact with their mind.

You send a telepathic message to the short, dusky-haired woman:
"Hello there."

I believe this change would make SDesc fishing more vague without sending a message, not provide information that is beyond the understanding of people with limited use of the Way, and prevent scenarios like what is listed above (and more).

[triste]

The part that I dislike about the change is that it introduces a new set of problems that outweigh the original issue.

An Anecdotal Example:
. . .

Yes, these are all examples of how the change kills plots. And as Nao mentioned first, the way it impacts magickers almost calls for an immediate roll back of the change. It utterly destroys the ability for certain magickers to play ungemmed/secretive concepts.

As an example:

>contact soandso

You attempt to make contact with their mind.

You send a telepathic message to the short, dusky-haired woman:
"Hello there."

I believe this change would make SDesc fishing more vague without sending a message, not provide information that is beyond the understanding of people with limited use of the Way, and prevent scenarios like what is listed above (and more).

This proposal would resolve the issue the implemented change tried to address. It is also similar to the change players were actually proposing prior to the rollout of the update in this thread: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,55694.0.html

Basically, what people were trying to address the problem of asymmetric information in this scenario with Person A and Person B who is wearing a cloak:

Person A does and sees:
> contact cloak.person
You reach Person B with your mind.

Person B sees only:
A foreign presence contacts your mind.


A lot of people made proposals like yours in that thread to fix it. AKA make the information symmetric. Instead of Person A getting more information out of the interaction, make them receive an equal amount of information by either anonymizing Person B, de-anonymizing Person A, or making the exchange of sdesc information simultaneous and only upon way message.

I think staff might have misread some of the proposals in that thread I linked, leading to the ironic situation where the situation is actually worse: Person A still gets information asymmetrically, and it can be well argued they get more information than ever outside of the way-tapping or way-sniffing scenario.

[LindseyBalboa]

Could just go back to the same as before, except the person being contacted sees the sdesc of the person contacting when they get a pemote that they've been contacted. Fixes the problem of people anonymously phishing, doesn't expose hiding and invisibility.

[Obeliskocism]

Since it appears this change was brought on by public sentiment on the GDB, I really hope public sentiment can now inspire a rollback or tweak.

I really dislike this change, for all the reasons stated above.

A generic 'you contact someone' that is cookie cutter regardless of cloak or spell etc. seems like a decent compromise.

This is my petition.

[Fredd]

Since it appears this change was brought on by public sentiment on the GDB, I really hope public sentiment can now inspire a rollback or tweak.

I really dislike this change, for all the reasons stated above.

A generic 'you contact someone' that is cookie cutter regardless of cloak or spell etc. seems like a decent compromise.

This is my petition.

Seconded

[Heade]

Since it appears this change was brought on by public sentiment on the GDB, I really hope public sentiment can now inspire a rollback or tweak.

I really dislike this change, for all the reasons stated above.

A generic 'you contact someone' that is cookie cutter regardless of cloak or spell etc. seems like a decent compromise.

This is my petition.

Seconded

Thirded?

[HeeBeeGB]

Furthed.

[SpyGuy]

A generic 'you contact someone' that is cookie cutter regardless of cloak or spell etc. seems like a decent compromise.

I'm not opposed.  This will lead to a lot more 'Oops, wrong mind.' situations from people who contact with sdesc keywords though. 

[Inks]

You contact a tall blur with the way. Ooohkaaayy. 


Also psi Put out an APB on a noseless breed wearing a double tiered cloak. No I didn't actually see them just in my mind when they taunted me over the way and then I found their mind.

Also you better not be doing any skullduggery on leave day in a clan and have someone find your mind.

Yes this actually makes the problem worse not better. It just needs to say "someone" no matter what the state/cloak of the person is to have contacter/ contactee on equal footing. That being said. People who contact through cloaks for sdesc then leave without waying are the worst players.

[Riev]

That being said. People who contact through cloaks for sdesc then leave without waying are the worst players.

Legit was standing in a room, and someone walked in from the outside, looked at me, and left immediately. No other interaction, just "I'm going to come into the room, copy your mdesc and equipment list, and deal with it later".

I'm alright with "You contact "someone" over the way" and you are forced to, then, psi Is this Sergeant Malik?

Not only will the target know who you are now, you'll have to send a message to even know if you got the right mind. It'll increase the "You need Sergeant Malik. He's got red hair." so you can contact malik.red or contact 2.malik.red until you get the right guy.

[X-D]

say, "So the criminal we are looking for is Bilbo the hairy footed man."

contact Bilbo hairy footed

You contact the figure in a grey elvish cloak.

say, "He is also wearing a grey elvish cloak."

Honestly, I do not see anything truly positive in these changes. Exchange one barely problem for a far more useful one. Myself, if I was way fishing for your sdesc I often would even way to taunt you about it. Besides, you had to at least be in the same room for code generated to work anyway.

Otherwise, I find knowing what you are currently wearing or even in some cases, doing...WAY more useful.

[KittenLicks]

I'm going to play devil's advocate for a bit here and ask: Is this a bad thing?

If staff are saying that this is the intended behavior and should be considered IC (I assume they are?) then it's not metagaming to contact someone wanted to find out what they're wearing. Likewise, it's not metagaming for criminals to have a barrier up and/or swap cloaks regularly to confuse any searching soldiers.

I think it's generally agreed that soldiers get the short end of the stick when it comes to finding criminals, so a small buff isn't bad.

..the magick stuff should definitely be changed though, it's not like secret gicks don't have enough problems. One hundred kudos for any gicks that put magic on random commoners so they look super suspicious through the Way though.

EDIT: To be clear though, I'm throwing my hat in the ring of "change it back or change it so that the information is symmetrical, either tell the person being contacted who is contacting or don't tell either party".

[rinthrat]

Legit was standing in a room, and someone walked in from the outside, looked at me, and left immediately. No other interaction, just "I'm going to come into the room, copy your mdesc and equipment list, and deal with it later".

Why is this bad if they just look at you? They might be looking for someone specific. Or someone to hire. Or someone who is wearing a certain uniform, or a gemmed Vivaduan, or someone with a nice sword to steal, or someone to mudsex, or any number of things that only become apparent by looking at your equipment or your character. Then leave when they see that you're not what they were looking for.