clans have too much water

[Lotion]

why do clans have so much water?

water is precious and valuable and yet every clan has more than enough
do they have to pay for it? they better!

[mansa]

I would bring this discussion up within your clan forums or with your clan immortals using the request tool.

The might have reasons for your specific clan, or you might be hearing that one player goes out and buys a barrel every day when you're offline...But it's a clan question!

[Lotion]

do clans often have players actually go buy water?

[zealus]

Some clans get water from their own kitchen. Other clans have an empty cistern, and good luck to the leader PCs
I'd say what mansa said, and ask your staffer

[Harmless]

 Not all clans have huge amounts of water available! There is overhead involved. I love the clans that do not provide it by default and many do not. Definitely make a question request under clan related if you think it is odd that you have the water.

[rinthrat]

The Byn used to have no water on the premises. Runners were a lot poorer at the time

[Dresan]

In the past most merchant houses had two compounds, a north and south one, some locations were better equiped then others.

Most major clans have water tuns now which fill up for themselves. Though admittedly I know nothing and will never know anything of noble clans so not sure the situation there.

That said, the era of Tuluk, rangers and indies is long gone. And clans have since gotten a lot of love to battle the old perception that it better to be a rich indie then stuck in a restrictive clan.  The amount of benefits some clans give just from joining borderlines the obscene these days.

The term 'There is overhead involved.' is an old phrase thrown about back in the day that has very little meaning in my opinion. Either the staff want to make a clan more attractive by adding more benefits to it or they don't.

That recently prompted the discussion based on Shabago's comment shown below: GMH/Noble Houses roles

    As it stands right now, getting employees/minions to GMH or Noble Houses both seem to be a challenge.

[Riev]

Frankly speaking, there was a time where some clans would only have water if they got it themselves. It provided for some fun activity but ONLY for the people online at the time/people who knew where to get it for 'free'. It also meant that if you weren't on the peak play time for your clan, you might never see the tun filled with any water, and you'd be spending what little coin you have on your own water.

For playability's sake, and for the virtual representation of clans to manage their own water, this was changed. You might see that the Byn water fills slower than, say, Fale's... so if you have too many people or you go out on a desert expedition... you might start running out,

[Fredd]

Most of the cisterns and tuns have echos about being filled by NPC's. If I remember correct, merchant houses pay for their water (at a discount for goods and services)
and noble houses sorta gets a stipend from the highlord.

Tulk was similar, except the other noble houses paid Tenneshi, virtually.

It's probably been 10 years since I looked into 'water lore' though.

As for WHY... That's easy. This is a desert world. Water is power. The GMH and the Byn need peons to churn through and work to death. Providing free water and food
is how they attract those peons.

[Harmless]

I am fully in support of the OP losing their clan water! Really I am! They just need to put it into a clan related question request. If you don't get why your clan has water, discuss it! Maybe they don't deserve that water and it was just overlooked. I would love it if you lost your water! Go ahead, tick the 'hard' button back on! It truly is more fun. 

[NinjaFruitSalad]

I am fully in support of the OP losing their clan water! Really I am! They just need to put it into a clan related question request. If you don't get why your clan has water, discuss it! Maybe they don't deserve that water and it was just overlooked. I would love it if you lost your water! Go ahead, tick the 'hard' button back on! It truly is more fun. 

... what if they aren't even in a clan?

[Lotion]

Would be cool to have a few clans trying to outbid each other to get water from a supplier.

[Blink]

A great many of the activities, transactions, enterprises, etc that one would expect a clan to realistically have are carried out virtually.  Water acquisition and purchase is one of them.  If clans had to have PCs actually doing all this stuff IG, there would probably be only about 4 clans operating because there wouldn't be enough players to do all the routine tasks. 

[Kyviantre]

Are they also going to be polishing the furniture?  Cleaning out latrines (other than the Byn) and a urinate command to encourage having to do that?  Do we need a 'washing the plates' mini-game?  What about laundry airing, beating rugs, sweeping floors, making beds, and hundreds of other tiny tasks?

All those would make it realistic, no?  But they are busywork, and in a 'big clan' full of NPCs and vNPCs, it is less demoralising to spend your playtime having fun story, than the Zalanthan equivalent of paperwork.

Indies on the other hand, tend to make more money and can travel more (at the worker-bee PC level, we're ignoring both the House and head-honcho NPC level), so giving them a cash sync or a time sync, depending on how they acquire water, makes more sense.  And PC head-honcho's in clans, if they have more money that isn't spent on water, can spend it on pushing plots for their underlings (in theory).

Sometimes, things happening virtually is better for a fun game that is less full of doing make-work tasks.

[Harmless]

Yes, but this is a desert world.

Water rarity is everything!!

If the OP wants to start their mission of reducing water availability, I am in full support.

[Saellyn]

Water is only rare in a desert if you don't know where to look for it, and the cities tend to be built either over, or close to, sources of water. I don't think the GMHs, or nobility, should be concerned with water acquirement.

[th3kaiser]

I'd love if we could just change the lore on this. Water isn't particularly rare or valuable in practice. It just isn't, nobody is so hard up they're paying Vivs to make them water because there's not enough to go around. The only people who struggle with water are new players/PCs. After that it's just remembering to fill up now and again.

[HeeBeeGB]

I'd love if we could just change the lore on this. Water isn't particularly rare or valuable in practice. It just isn't, nobody is so hard up they're paying Vivs to make them water because there's not enough to go around. The only people who struggle with water are new players/PCs. After that it's just remembering to fill up now and again.

I think it's more of an adjustment of water availability dependent on social strata. It is still difficult for Indies who aren't money making machines to get water, spice grabbers, things like that, at least if you aren't playing to the code meta and get rich quick. Something to the effect of 'The Templarates, Noble Houses, and Greater Merchant Houses have easy access to the semi-rare resource of water due to political standing, sometimes Magickal acquirement, and sheer resources. Meanwhile, those without any political power or coin often struggle to survive, spending what coin they do make on food and water'.

I can say that the Indies I play that are either Iso or not crafters definitely have more trouble with the struggle, and I kind of like it that way. Where is my next paycheck coming from? What hustle do I have to endeavor now to survive? And so on. I think if you are seeking that lifestyle, a Clan or city life is not exactly congruous to that, and I don't think it should be. I agree with previous posters who mention that some clans were required to get their own water, and it was not only a chore, it was incompatible with off-peak players without the means to get it, who would log in to find an empty water barrel and no money to buy water. It's one of the perks of joining a clan -- Food, Water, and Storage/Shelter.

[triste]

As a few other old timers know, I just wanted to mention there was once a water tax IG. While somewhat annoying and easy to work around, I thought this feature enriched the setting. It also addressed the current status quo of everybody, even the silkiest silk clad aide with the tressiest tresses, crawling in dark, dirty caves to get free water. That water wasn't always "free" -- as is appropriate for the setting. Mechanisms that supported the setting, like water taxes, once existed and there is no reason mechanisms like this cannot be reintroduced.

[Dresan]

Indies currently have it hard enough just by the mere fact that by not being in clans they lack the tremendous support clanned players get.

Ironically, getting involved in dirty work as a clanned member is not always great for your long-term career. No issues being the hand, you just cannot be the knife.  Thus game needs a number of indies to help fill in the gaps that arise from clan restrictions, someone to pay to get dirty work done.

Unfortunately, game hasn't been friendly to them both OOCly and ICly. I wouldn't want to see anymore meaningless struggle added to indies. There is currently a serious lack of meaningful progression beyond code especially outside of clans.

[LindseyBalboa]

There are indeed some clans that will have RPTs about going to grab water for the tribe, but "great clans" are so big that it doesn't make sense for vNPCs not to be taking care of this. Try joining smaller clans outside of cities if you want to RP more about scavenging for necessities to survive. Tribal RP is some of my favorite in this game.

[Dresan]

I think tribes start that way but basically my impression from trying to trade with some  tribes is that they have storages full of resources. Since overtime people tend to collect more stuff that the tribe/clan can use and it just piles up from there.

[Kyviantre]

Depends on the tribe.  Having less trading partners and bigger tents, tends to be a bit more scavenger-feel.  But if you have long-lived characters who have made trading partners and a smaller than average tent...most of the tribal situation is playing the shuffle game when you can't put anything down >.<

[Harmless]

Yes, all the above is true, but if you're in a clan you get tremendous numbers of enemies and assassins after you! You're a target because you have gained enemies (and yes, allies too), and I really don't see what that has to do with the fact that water should be rare. I just don't get why we decided water rarity doesn't apply to Zalanthas after all. Playability aside, you get WAGES in clans too, those can be used to buy water. Maybe we just need to make water cheaper in areas that get good access to it, like cities that house mages. Maybe people who are so cheap that they only drink free water need to go to the temple of Vivadu more often because it'd be a mark of your wealth to actually pay for water. I'd be fine with all of this, but I guess I'm "hardcore"? Who knew! I always thought I was super casual, but I guess the slider for casualness and hardcoreness changes over time, or maybe people just want to focus on grinding their skills so they can do their next backstab attempt as opposed to doing mundane things like crafting or hunting to earn their next drink of fresh water. Grey water in particular is WAY too expensive in Allanak. You'd think it had nutritional benefits or something! It ought to be like 10 coins a skin. Instead it costs nearly as much as clear water.

Oh, one more thing -- if you stay in the shade, you don't need to drink that much. Thirst is almost only a problem if you spend time outside for significant lengths. So, if water is hard to get, just be an indoors Zalanthan.

[Kankfly]

Having water in clans is one of the coded perks of joining a clan, just like having the freedom of movement without answering to someone and adhering to a strict schedule including a set of rules is the perks of being an independent. I don't think we should be removing it.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

I think it's already implied that clans pay for this water, either through taxes or other upkeep costs.

Also, given the amount of superstition and misinformation surrounding magickers, don't think magically conjured up water will be a popular thing...

[Kyviantre]

Grey water in particular is WAY too expensive in Allanak. You'd think it had nutritional benefits or something! It ought to be like 10 coins a skin. Instead it costs nearly as much as clear water.

This I agree to.  The price difference means there is little incentive to buy grey water.  It would be nice if it was much cheaper to encourage more people discovering the joys of water you can chew!

[Dar]

I'd be very for making every source of water outside walled settlements to be very scarce and very dangerous.

[X-D]

I miss the days of no water clans...vivs were in much higher demand. Nobody liked em...but they needed them, it was an interesting dichotomy.

[AdamBlue]

If a clan didn't provide water, then that means I won't log on as much because I'd get thirsty too much. That's the catch you get. Either you provide water and there are high playtimes or no water and low playtimes. Enjoy!

[Dar]

If a clan didn't provide water, then that means I won't log on as much because I'd get thirsty too much. That's the catch you get. Either you provide water and there are high playtimes or no water and low playtimes. Enjoy!

That's kind of shitty, tbh. If lack of water really prevents you from playing in a game that's ment to be drastically short on water, then maybe not playing is the right decision.

I would understand leaving the clan, or giving the clan leadership shit, or stealing clan gear and selling it off to be able to afford water. But not logging in? That's lame.

[AdamBlue]

If a clan didn't provide water, then that means I won't log on as much because I'd get thirsty too much. That's the catch you get. Either you provide water and there are high playtimes or no water and low playtimes. Enjoy!

That's kind of shitty, tbh. If lack of water really prevents you from playing in a game that's ment to be drastically short on water, then maybe not playing is the right decision.

I would understand leaving the clan, or giving the clan leadership shit, or stealing clan gear and selling it off to be able to afford water. But not logging in? That's lame.

Why should a clan role be punished for having lots of availability, then? Not only is leadership sometimes completely absent, but forcing them to essentially survive with no coded support whatsoever while waiting for roleplay that ends up not happening? Radical, super fun.

If you want people who have lots of availability, they will end up eating lots of food and drinking lots of water, often in massive excess than to what you would expect. Being online for ten hours a day is lots of food and water, and if it's not available, then they have to limit themselves so that they don't starve to death, unless you'd like clan roles begging on the street or shovelling shit for greywater and bar food.

[Kyviantre]

In the past, I have been in that situation.  Needing to be online to speak to X, but needing to not log in to try to ration food and water supplies until I do.

It is frustrating and immersion breaking and so very crushing.  Being non-peak means I have had to log out for nearly every big thing...but basic communication would be game breaking.

If you are an indie, that is part of the package that you accept.  But clans require you to be far more reliant on another player and being available...which means amusing yourself while logged in waiting for them...which means drinking and eating more.

As an off-peak player, I would struggle to balance a role where there are clan restrictions but no water.  And saying 'just steal stuff' really doesn't help at all.

[Riev]

SOME of this has been rectified by changing the rate at which thirst and hunger grow for people while indoors/in a city. I have had PCs that didn't need water or food for in game days at a time. For me, thirst went up if I went outdoors, and hunger went up if I was sparring/fighting/regenerating stamina and hp.

That, combined with mostly free water in places, has rectified the "I'm online 5 hours a day, and leadership is only around 5 hours a week" issue when it comes to literal, coded survival.

Some clans, like the Byn.. it KINDA made sense to have to get your own water, or the Sarge is paying for it out of pocket. Other clans, like the GMH's or Noble Houses, it didn't make sense that water wasn't part of the deal. One of the main draws to working for a GMH or Noble is that you DON'T have to worry about food or water like all those other Scraps.