Make Sorcerers Great Again (And Elementalists)

[Heade]

The idea of sorcerers only being able to learn one path of sorcery runs completely contrary to the established documentation on how sorcery is learned. Sorcery is most often learned in an effort increase one's own personal power, and in so doing, they make themselves have a secret that puts them at odds with the entire known world. If characters knew ICly that they would only ever be able to learn one path of sorcery, they would be unlikely to ever set down the path of learning it to begin with. The payoff simply isn't worth the cost in terms of ultimate destiny.

This issue can be resolved in a number of ways. We suggest that PC sorcerers remain a subclass to avoid guild sniffing, but gain a codified way to learn spells from other paths.

One suggestion was to allow 1 PC holder of each sorcery path in the game at any given time. This would help limit aggregate PC sorcerer power in game to be no greater than a single sorcerer with all four paths. This would mean that there could be any combination of 1 to 4 PC sorcerers in game at any given time(two that each have one path, plus one that has two, or four that each have one path, or one that has 4 paths, etc.). This would create a situation where if a sorcerer wanted to pursue further knowledge, they'd have to seek out and eliminate rival sorcerers to steal their knowledge. It would create innate plots for players of these PCs, drive conflict, and very potentially cause these conflicts to become noticed by the mundane PC world as they unfold. Plots can naturally spawn from this sort of dynamic without staff having to intervene. If a single sorcerer manages the monumental task of accumulating all four sorcerer paths, then that could allow staff to work with the player to create a world-level plot for the game. When that player character is no longer in game, the 4 paths would become available for other player applications again.

As for elementalists, we wouldn't suggest any change to the existing subclasses, leaving all of those options available, but we would like to see the option for full elementalists added back to the game as a subclass to avoid guild sniffing. We suggest that the full elementalist spell tree for each element be reintroduced to the game as a 3 karma special app only subclass option. This would also prevent people from being able to easily guild sniff individual aspects.

[Lizzie]

I like that idea for sorcerers, making it a matter of "natural selection" via roleplay and in-character plots. However, I would allow for some overlap. My suggestion to improve on your idea:

Allow for FIVE paths to run simultaneously - but only among a maximum of 4 characters. That way, if one sorcerer already has all 4 paths and there aren't any new ones allowed, then he wins, game over. He has no one to teach, and no one has a chance to steal his secrets. There needs to always be a possibility of at least 2 sorcerers in the game, regardless of how much or little power they've accrued between them. And so - that bit of overlap I think would improve.

As for elementalist - I think we should allow the full classes back, as full classes. With the caveat that they WILL be guild-sniffed. Just assume it, and roleplay knowing that your character will either a) need to play iso if he wants to fully persue his affinity with his element at minimal risk of being discovered or b) take the gem.

[Dresan]

Sorcerers seem popular and powerful enough.

These PCs should be working more closely with staff to make stuff happen that isn't limited to just code.

[tapas]

Sorcerers seem popular and powerful enough.

These PCs should be working more closely with staff to make stuff happen that isn't limited to just code.

I agree with this.

[Khorm]

i'd be interested in a system where there were tiers of advancement for a class like sorcerer. milestones that could be reached to increase power or access to spells/reaches and shit like that. i mean i am only guessing at how templars work, but it would be how i imagine templars work.

nessalin briefly discussed options for something like "origin stories" for sorcs and maybe an advancement system could be tied to that. some bizarro snake demon taught you magick and now you have to fulfill certain tasks before they'll reveal further secrets. i think this would allow for options for greater power while still giving staff the power of oversight.

with what feels like a more laissez faire approach to player development these days, having full guild sorc would make it relatively simple to just go sit in a bush for 100d played and emerge as a god.

sorc rivalry sounds awesome if on relatively even footing. i'm pretty sure that in a scenario where you have a full sorc vs 3 mini sorcs.. the full sorc is going to blow them the fuck out every single time.

also... maybe a little off topic but definitely related. i think giving all schools more access to a basic suite of spells would be fantastic and promote sorc interaction that isn't defined by maxxing out or dying. having vision/hiding spells by default would be awesome. maybe op?

[Khorm]

Sorcerers seem popular and powerful enough.

These PCs should be working more closely with staff to make stuff happen that isn't limited to just code.

I'd like to switch this around and say staff should be working more closely with pcs. or maybe that it should be *MORE collaborative.

*edited to add that I think it can be hard to push magick plot when a ton of magick shit is heavily obfuscated and left to imagination. like maybe there should be a better means to address what can/cannot be done or what does/does not make sense. otherwise in magick roles I think I would be left to just wonder or give ideas, wait a week, get shot down or not, and then repeat.

[triste]

I would be in favor of more formalized policies like this if it meant more players got to experience sorcery. One of the sorcerers die and we're below the cap? Have some random mundane manifest as a sorcerer even if they don't have the karma. At least years ago, staff would randomly have some mundanes manifest as sorcerers and it was definitely interesting and spread the roles/privileges/fun around.

[Saellyn]

Sorcery does not come about as manifestation. It is not natural, like Elementalism. Sorcerers are taught, or learn their magick through other means.

[triste]

Thanks, because I am still confused to this day as to why one of my characters suddenly got sorcery years ago. Only things that seemed to justify getting the ability was being high wisdom and the leader of the tribe at the time. I wished up to ask if it was a bug and was told it wasn't but also wasn't given guidance on roleplaying it. But I realized it was weird and aberrant and you confirmed that.

But it was still quite interesting for a new player to suddenly be granted abilities, I love anything that foils the concentration of power the game suffers from.

So my argument stands despite the criticism. Like someone mentioned earlier with the snake demon thing, do that but in a more distributed way so everyone can experience the role/privilege/fun. Not super committed to this idea, just always obligated to speak up for maximal fairness/fun.

[Brokkr]

If you haven't played a sorcerer recently, you likely have no idea what they are like.

And while theorycrafting can be fun, watching how things progress in game, and especially waking up and reading a report about the night before of serious awesomeness, leads me to believe sorcerers are about right, currently, and don't need further changes right now.

[Lizzie]

If you haven't played a sorcerer recently, you likely have no idea what they are like.

And while theorycrafting can be fun, watching how things progress in game, and especially waking up and reading a report about the night before of serious awesomeness, leads me to believe sorcerers are about right, currently, and don't need further changes right now.

Thanks Brokkr! I'd played one "relatively" recently - which is to say, post-main-guild-elimination. Haven't played since the most recent batch of tweaks though (which I know has been only within the past RL 6 months).

[Dar]

From my observation things changed, so I don't know the situation now. But when I played a merchant/sorcerer. I found myself "too" powerful.  Like if I wanted to lame out, I could have 'anyone' killed. Out in the wilderness, or inside the city.  It would call for some meh gameplay, but it was easily feasable.  Hopefully they adjusted that path

The issue with sorcerer's is that they are no longer gods. They are no longer unkillable beyond a gankfest of 8 PCs.

And since their power is more limited, they are more reliant on other PCs. Whether magick, or mundane. Which ... Encouraged power ranger groups. On one hand, people are having fun playing together. On another hand, it encourages enclave building that begins to rival PC numbers to the entirety of Nak.

And that's ... A logical progression of events. Whether that's a good thing, or bad.

[Brokkr]

If you haven't played a sorcerer recently, you likely have no idea what they are like.

And while theorycrafting can be fun, watching how things progress in game, and especially waking up and reading a report about the night before of serious awesomeness, leads me to believe sorcerers are about right, currently, and don't need further changes right now.

Thanks Brokkr! I'd played one "relatively" recently - which is to say, post-main-guild-elimination. Haven't played since the most recent batch of tweaks though (which I know has been only within the past RL 6 months).

Hey, at least you didn't play one right out of the gate after the change!  It has taken a few different tweaks to get them to the right place.

From my observation things changed, so I don't know the situation now. But when I played a merchant/sorcerer. I found myself "too" powerful.  Like if I wanted to lame out, I could have 'anyone' killed. Out in the wilderness, or inside the city.  It would call for some meh gameplay, but it was easily feasable.  Hopefully they adjusted that path

The issue with sorcerer's is that they are no longer gods. They are no longer unkillable beyond a gankfest of 8 PCs.

And since their power is more limited, they are more reliant on other PCs. Whether magick, or mundane. Which ... Encouraged power ranger groups. On one hand, people are having fun playing together. On another hand, it encourages enclave building that begins to rival PC numbers to the entirety of Nak.

And that's ... A logical progression of events. Whether that's a good thing, or bad.

One goal is to keep them from being unkillable gods.  That won't be coming back if we can avoid it.

On the other hand, we see a lot of snowflake play from people sorcerer's interact with.  If 99% of the population should be running screaming in fear from a sorcerer or attacking them or plotting their demise, and only 1% maybe accepting them....there may be a world perception problem when 99% are accepting them.  We get arguments a lot of "but power.."  "my pc is after the magic secrets..."  "logically my character would..." as justifications.  Which look a lot like player reasoning bleeding into their character, who should be culturally conditioned in nearly all cases to regard sorcerers as bad, terrifying, evil people that are going to result in bad things to anyone halfway sane. We understand the desire to hang out with the cool kids and see what mischief you can get into, of course, but those player desires sort of lead to a non-optimal outcome at odds with the game world at times, as you've mentioned.  It can be "logical" but that doesn't mean it is good play or reflects at all well on the players that do it.

[Dar]

The issue there though is that with limited power, sorcerers 'require' companions.  If before they were a power onto themselves and they could reinforce the need of 99% of populace being scared of them, or planning their demise. This is no longer the case. Now sorcerers "neeeeeeed" other people. Nor are they now able to safely antagonize entire geographical regions, as they are no longer self sufficient powerhouses with a "gtfo" spell.  And the fear of them is muted as well as their powers now is akin to hedge witches who learned some scraps and tricks, instead of all powerful beings that rule city States.

Thing is, many who play sorcerers have played leaders before. They know how to entrall people with charm and awesomeness. And since they need people, they 'will' find ways to attract people to their cause. Although, often just "having" a cause is enough. Then as the group grows, the gravitas of numbers only becomes more alluring.

That is nothing new, but since at its root stems a sorcerer, the issue of them in definite need of companions to "survive" is an issue that was brought on by lower power.

I don't have solutions here. Just observations. Higher near godlike power - if a player is responsible, he/she themselves can reinforce the fear that sorcerers oughta entice. Without dooming their character.

Lower hedge witch (just a bit more powerful/interesting then an elementalist) power and the sorcerer's are no longer one man power that can afford to be a villain to most of the known world by themselves.

[Heade]

The issue with sorcerer's is that they are no longer gods. They are no longer unkillable beyond a gankfest of 8 PCs.

And since their power is more limited, they are more reliant on other PCs.

those player desires sort of lead to a non-optimal outcome at odds with the game world at times, as you've mentioned.  It can be "logical" but that doesn't mean it is good play or reflects at all well on the players that do it.

I think that this would be resolved by implementing the system I suggested in my original post. It would be very difficult for a single player to acquire all of the paths of sorcery, so it would be exceedingly rare, but the method required to make it happen will set them at odds with each other and reduce the "power ranger" groups a bit. And in the rare instance that a player does acquire all 4 paths, they would know up front that they will be expected to work with staff to create a world plot that has the ultimate conclusion of ending that PC, whether it be through PC death, or accomplishment of a goal that would basically require PC storage. But in the latter case, it's possible that this PC could be converted into an NPC in the game world somewhere. In this way, the player can feel accomplished that they left their mark on the gameworld while still preventing unkillable god characters from running around the game world for an undefined amount of time.

[Brokkr]

One goal is to keep them from being unkillable gods.  That won't be coming back if we can avoid it.

We've already sort of gone with our own ideas, this last set of tweaks.

[Saellyn]

Unless you make it an absolute rule that people who play characters should avoid Sorcerers, then people are going to naturally gravitate towards them. Especially now. Tweaked or not, Sorcerers that players can apply for are a shadow of what they used to be, and thus, require people around them for relative safety.

Not only that, the change made to them actually doesn't make any sense, within the lore of the world. Sorcery is learned. You're essentially telling players, who apply for Sorcerers, that their Sorcerer chose not to learn any of the other paths. You've taken agency away from the players by doing that.

[Dresan]

@Brokkr

Geenrally speaking, I agree with your assessment in how sorcerers should be treated and benefit from it for the equally snowflake reason that I rather avoid isolated and potentially bored PCs with overpowered skill sets which can kill or harrass my often mundane characters without much effort.

However, it still seems rather harsh given that are sometimes 20 people playing the game and 1 or 2 of them are probably sorcerers.

While sorcerers are clearly powerful, they do not currently feel as mysterious or rare as in the past. They are just one less source of interaction for my PC. Often the interaction I do hear about seem rather petty.  Thus, I don't fault people who seek to play with these PC because it will hopefully prevents these PC from coming to seek interaction from me.

I really feel that at some point level 3 karma special app roles may need to be treated like sponsored roles with more specific direction and goals from staff. Probably with the option to play a mundane character on the side so that PCs aren't just roaming around trying to find someone to play with.

[Brokkr]

Tweaked or not, Sorcerers that players can apply for are a shadow of what they used to be, and thus, require people around them for relative safety.

potentially bored PCs with overpowered skill sets which can kill or harrass my often mundane characters without much effort.

However, it still seems rather harsh given that are sometimes 20 people playing the game and 1 or 2 of them are probably sorcerers.

While sorcerers are clearly powerful

Getting mixed signals.  Different experiences, or different expectations, hard to tell.

Not only that, the change made to them actually doesn't make any sense, within the lore of the world. Sorcery is learned. You're essentially telling players, who apply for Sorcerers, that their Sorcerer chose not to learn any of the other paths. You've taken agency away from the players by doing that.

We took power away, certainly.  Even the old help docs on Sorcerers, from before the change, hinted at a range of sorcerers, from those who learn a spell or two, to those who devote their lives to magick, to more powerful beings such as Dragons.  All that has been done is that the line that demarks what you can play and what you cannot play has been changed.  You could never progress to a Dragon, before, either.  IC'ly what you call main guild sorcerers still exist.  You just can't play them.  You can play a variant of sorcerer that existed, but you couldn't play before, a person not quite as well versed so as to become a "main guild" sorcerer.

[Dresan]

They seem powerful enough to me.

Yes perhaps not as powerful as they used to be but from what I've heard they don't have trouble killing people if they put their minds to it.

Just a difference in opinion on what is enough coded power is so not worth arguing.

More concerning is that people who chose to interact with these PCs are considered snowflakes. Do we need more PC in the game that mundane players just need to just avoid?

[Saellyn]

Right. Those docs hinted at a range. But all of those were choices. Those Sorcerers chose to only learn a spell or two. Others chose to learn entire paths. The limitation set on players to specific paths implies that the player character has, without input from the player, chosen not to pursue anything beyond that. That's all I'm saying. If that isn't the case, and there's something more to it than that, I'm willing to be told I'm wrong.

[Brokkr]

More concerning is that people who chose to interact with these PCs are considered snowflakes. Do we need more PC in the game that mundane players just need to just avoid?

Ok, snowflake wasn't really the right word to use.  Its like, if 1 out of 10 characters aligned themselves with a sorc they meet, it would be that rare, interesting tack to take.  If 9 out of 10 characters align themselves with a sorc they meet, it is maybe a unique experience for the character/player doing it, but it becomes on the whole contrary to the world.  I understand that the player doesn't have the context to know if what they are doing is 1 out of 10 or if it is 9 out of 10.  But staff does see that, and it is easy for us to fall into "Ugh another one".  We understand the desire to engage in a unique opportunity.  It just isn't a unique opportunity.

Because it is closer to 9 out of 10 than it is 1 out of 10.

[Brokkr]

Right. Those docs hinted at a range. But all of those were choices. Those Sorcerers chose to only learn a spell or two. Others chose to learn entire paths. The limitation set on players to specific paths implies that the player character has, without input from the player, chosen not to pursue anything beyond that. That's all I'm saying. If that isn't the case, and there's something more to it than that, I'm willing to be told I'm wrong.

Ah, I see.  I think we view it differently.  Please let me know if I am wrong.

You view it as, if Zuzub learns enough, they have the potential to learn all of sorcery, because it is something that is learned.

I view it (and this isn't something newly formed since coming on staff) as Zuzub learns enough, they have the tools needed to do magick, but they still are limited by their inherent potential.  Thus, some folks learn fewer spells, some more, some have a potential in one path or another, some have the potential to become Dragons.  A dual system of learning and potential, rather than a system with a single variable of learning.

The system hasn't changed, just the potential of the characters you are allowed to play.

[Heade]

I view it (and this isn't something newly formed since coming on staff) as Zuzub learns enough, they have the tools needed to do magick, but they still are limited by their inherent potential.  Thus, some folks learn fewer spells, some more, some have a potential in one path or another, some have the potential to become Dragons.  A dual system of learning and potential, rather than a system with a single variable of learning.

Yeah, this system was never indicated or alluded to in the documentation of arm for the majority of it's existence. It seemed pretty clear that it was primarily about learning, rather than potential.

I don't mean to be argumentative, but if what you're suggesting was the intended system and/or fluff around the documentation, those who put together that documentation failed sensationally.

[Dresan]

More concerning is that people who chose to interact with these PCs are considered snowflakes. Do we need more PC in the game that mundane players just need to just avoid?

Ok, snowflake wasn't really the right word to use.  Its like, if 1 out of 10 characters aligned themselves with a sorc they meet, it would be that rare, interesting tack to take.  If 9 out of 10 characters align themselves with a sorc they meet, it is maybe a unique experience for the character/player doing it, but it becomes on the whole contrary to the world.  I understand that the player doesn't have the context to know if what they are doing is 1 out of 10 or if it is 9 out of 10.  But staff does see that, and it is easy for us to fall into "Ugh another one".  We understand the desire to engage in a unique opportunity.  It just isn't a unique opportunity.

Because it is closer to 9 out of 10 than it is 1 out of 10.

You are right. I cannot argue with this and agree. The number of times my character have been threatened with defilers from notable characters is really getting a bit nutty.

Though from my point of view, my character can't take a stroll through the rinth without seeing at least one karma 3 PCs he needs to avoid.

I don't think capping these characters will work well, but instead making the areas where mundanes are suppose to live less appealing for the higher level karma roles to operate openly.